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Old 03-14-2013, 05:37 PM   #81
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Default Re: Danzo The Sixth Hokage De Facto. Or Hokage Pro Tempore

Quote:
Originally Posted by mrsticky005 View Post
I think in that instance there would definitely need to be a vote
because I don't think either side would be so willing to give up power.
Or better yet, civil war. Ahh, if only...

Quote:
Originally Posted by mrsticky005 View Post
It is interesting that everyone in Konoha no matter what they personally thought of Danzo pretty much just went along with him running the show.
I mean whether you consider him to be Hokage or not the fact was in that
period of time Danzo was in fact, the man in charge of the hidden leaf.

We know that Shikaku personally nominated Kakashi and had
support from the Fire Nobles (?) until Danzo shot down that idea
and nominated himself and whether through use of Shisui's eye
or Danzo's devilish charm he was able to seduce the Fire Lord
into appointing him as the Sixth Hokage if only temporarily.

But the question is...why didn't Shikaku get the jonin
gathered together as fast as possible and vote Danzo out
or at least vote someone else in? Was he just too slow?

I dunno maybe they were acting behind the scenes
but it really didn't seem like anyone was putting much
effort into Danzo NOT being the Sixth Hokage except for Akatsuki/Taka

What do you think Shikaku's plan was?

Was he trying to assemble the Jonin to vote Danzo out?

Was he waiting for Tsunade to awaken and nullify Danzo's Hokagacy?

Why didn't he ever go to Kakashi and say
"Hey we need you to be Hokage or else Danzo will ruin everything"?

Maybe Shikaku wasn't actually confident in a Kakashi Hokage
and only nominated him as a preemptive political strike against Danzo?

Kakashi was hesitant to be Hokage so maybe he was also waiting
for Tsunade to awaken?

Shizune definitely seemed like she was acting as if Tsunade
was still Hokage. Though she made little argument against
Danzo's hokagacy. Maybe she was just bidding her time?

What if Tsunade had actually died and wasn't in a coma?
Maybe Root makes up a sizable chunk of the jonin?
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Old 03-14-2013, 08:49 PM   #82
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Default Re: Danzo The Sixth Hokage De Facto. Or Hokage Pro Tempore

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Originally Posted by DrKage View Post
A lot of your quotes rely on the fact that a Hokage had never been rejected in the past. In reality, everyone who referred to Danzo as the Hokage was just assuming he would be the Hokage since 100% of the time, when one had been nominated, he had actually finished the process to be recognized unquestionably as the Hokage. Which was not the case since Kakashi says it's not final and he and Danzo both refer to the process as not being final.

And then you just dismiss Danzo's own words that he never actually became Hokage as not to be taken literally!

It's been raised here several times. The Village was in a crisis and Danzo was in position to lead it. But that doesn't make him Hokage since he still had people looking over his shoulder who could prevent him from taking the office.


That's not "reality." Reality is they are soldiers, and they don't assume. And you cannot assume that a village with a government, military, and in a state of war, would not put out the official statement of new hokage, rather than assuming that they assume and spread bad information.

You are using the same interpretation as others that the process is not finished. That is why I am saying that is incorrect. He was labelled hokage by the person who decides. The jonin vote had the power to end or vote out a hokage. Everyone assumed that was a "step two" of determining hokage.

Their is proof they can "end" a hokage's reign, but no proof it is part of a process to vote in. It is its' own power and carries a veto. Essentially, if they don't want that jonin leading as hokage, they can cancel the Fire Daimyo's choice.

But you know what? They could probably vote out a hokage ANYTIME! They aren't the king until they die or retire. Unless we want to asume that this govenment is like that. Never go back on your appointed king.

There's been too much assumption on how the vote works, when the more solid proof is multiple ninja saying Danzo is hokage NOW.


Kakashi did not say "it's not final.", he said what I quoted, "He's the hokage until...." If your translation is different than what I presented, (from mangapanda) please quote the lines I used on my biq quote wall, and list your quote and source beside it.


I was looking deeper into his character. We know how bad he wanted to be hokage. He wanted the village to fall apart. Multiple characters, including Fore DAimyo, himself, and Kakashi all said he is hokage right now. His statement of never got to be is because he didn't get all the credit. He didn't get to win the jonin approval vote. And I'm sure they always do a vote for the new hokage. And if the hokage was doing horribly, would revote and vote them out. Danzo's obsession never bore the ripe fruit he wanted. His first act of importance got ruined by akatsuki, and then he fought and died. He never got to go back home and lead the village. He represented as hokage, but never led the village. That is why he feels that way. It's not an exposition statement. It is revealing his hopes and dreams and "Rosebud."


They weren't looking over his shoulder then.

The jonin can approve or disapprove of hokage and vote them out. There is no stated timeframe. And there is no suggestion it is part 2 of the vote in, when it is only suggested to influence by itself. That is why the person who brought it up, Kakashi, said he's hokage.

In addition, the Daimyo would not have called him hokage, he would have said, well, only one more step to go, and you're hokage. The jonin could have had an initial vote with whoever was there, or they never would call him by title, if they had to wait for the vote.

It is contradictory to suggest there had to be a vote, when people call him hokage instead of acting leader or sumsuch. The "village," isn't literal. They are a functioning city with a government. With a tv station in the anime.
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Old 03-14-2013, 10:07 PM   #83
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Default Re: Danzo The Sixth Hokage De Facto. Or Hokage Pro Tempore

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Originally Posted by Wooster View Post
Or better yet, civil war. Ahh, if only...


Maybe Root makes up a sizable chunk of the jonin?
Wouldn't The Foundation be considered Anbu?

I thought Anbu was it's own rank.

If they are Jonin then that's a sure way to get the vote
since all Danzo have to do is promote everyone in The Foundation
and order them all to vote for him.

Fodder Foundaiton ninja would totally outnumber the jonin with a face!


Civil War would be cool. Then again this war should have been cool.
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Old 03-15-2013, 05:37 AM   #84
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Default Re: Danzo The Sixth Hokage De Facto. Or Hokage Pro Tempore

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Originally Posted by paradigm1977 View Post


That's not "reality." Reality is they are soldiers, and they don't assume. And you cannot assume that a village with a government, military, and in a state of war, would not put out the official statement of new hokage, rather than assuming that they assume and spread bad information. ...
And I say your interpretation is incorrect. At the end of the day, there was no reason for anyone involved in the whole war arc to think Danzo wouldn't become Hokage since a rejection had never happened, so that's why they called him Hokage, but that doesn't actually mean he's the Hokage. It's like saying the President of the US is president the day after the election. He's not really the President, he will be when the process finishes on inauguration day in January, but not when only the first step to becoming President is finished.

And there is evidence that being a kage is like being a king of the village and there doesn't seem to be any way of removing a kage once they are in place short of death/retirement/incapacitation. Just because Konoha had good Kage that never needed to test the system doesn't mean other villages haven't thought about it. If we assume becoming kage is similar across all villages and so is the process of removing a kage, there's evidence that everyone in the Mist village thought Yagura was being controlled but they couldn't remove him from being Kage.

I think Kakashi said there had to be a majority of the Jonin, so if they weren't there to have a vote, then it would have to wait until they got back. No one expected Danzo to die which is why they all assumed he would be the Hokage to lead them through the war. But he did, he never became the Hokage, he won't get his face on the mountain and there will be an actual 6th Hokage someday that won't be Danzo.
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Old 03-15-2013, 05:38 AM   #85
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Default Re: Danzo The Sixth Hokage De Facto. Or Hokage Pro Tempore

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Originally Posted by mrsticky005 View Post
Wouldn't The Foundation be considered Anbu?

I thought Anbu was it's own rank.

If they are Jonin then that's a sure way to get the vote
since all Danzo have to do is promote everyone in The Foundation
and order them all to vote for him.

Fodder Foundaiton ninja would totally outnumber the jonin with a face!


Civil War would be cool. Then again this war should have been cool.
Anbu isn't a rank, it's essentially a separate organization, like the CIA. And Root is a division in that organization. And Danzo couldn't have just granted chunin the rank of Jonin all by himself.
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Old 03-15-2013, 09:57 AM   #86
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Default Re: Danzo The Sixth Hokage De Facto. Or Hokage Pro Tempore

@ Dr Kage Well anyhow thanks for debating.
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Old 03-15-2013, 04:17 PM   #87
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Default Re: Danzo The Sixth Hokage De Facto. Or Hokage Pro Tempore

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And I say your interpretation is incorrect. At the end of the day, there was no reason for anyone involved in the whole war arc to think Danzo wouldn't become Hokage since a rejection had never happened, so that's why they called him Hokage, but that doesn't actually mean he's the Hokage. It's like saying the President of the US is president the day after the election. He's not really the President, he will be when the process finishes on inauguration day in January, but not when only the first step to becoming President is finished.

And there is evidence that being a kage is like being a king of the village and there doesn't seem to be any way of removing a kage once they are in place short of death/retirement/incapacitation. Just because Konoha had good Kage that never needed to test the system doesn't mean other villages haven't thought about it. If we assume becoming kage is similar across all villages and so is the process of removing a kage, there's evidence that everyone in the Mist village thought Yagura was being controlled but they couldn't remove him from being Kage.

I think Kakashi said there had to be a majority of the Jonin, so if they weren't there to have a vote, then it would have to wait until they got back. No one expected Danzo to die which is why they all assumed he would be the Hokage to lead them through the war. But he did, he never became the Hokage, he won't get his face on the mountain and there will be an actual 6th Hokage someday that won't be Danzo.

I'm sorry but my interpretation has to be favored since characters literally gave the lines. And you are trying to poke holes in those lines of dialogue where people outright say he's hokage. And you do it by adding unstated rules to becoming hokage because it seems logical to you in comparison to real life.

Our arguments are not created equal. We are not starting in the middle. It's not Danzo is or is not Hokage.

Danzo IS HOKAGE. It is said bluntly. That is the starting point. So you must disprove what is said by characters in order to win this interpretation debate. You have to prove that we cannot trust

1. Fire Daimyo's chooses hokage by himself, then sends the candidate before the jonin council. They could reject 4 of his choices in a row. Or just one. So wouldn't it make more sense if they decided at the same time. If the jonin vote is always needed for approval, why have it as two stages at all? And if you can argue it, like balance of powers, well than why is Fire Daimyo saying "I thought to choose Joraiya?" Like it's totally up to him? He should know better. Then says Danzo is Hokage. So your argument relies on the Fire Daimyo being an untrustworthy source of accurate information.

2. And Kiba is also untrustworthy for opinion. He believes rumors.

3. Danzo calls himself hokage because he's expectant.

4. And Kakashi does not even hint that Danzo is any title other than "hokage," until the jonin vote. He obviously isn't happy with the choice. But rather than saying the jonin vote can end his "candidacy,"he says Danzo is hokage until the vote. Even if rushed in and it's expected that he'll pass the vote, now we don't trust kakashi enough to be accurately specific of "candidate." So kakashi also let it slide, even though he had motivation to say Danzo is only ruling for now, he might not actually BECOME hokage.

Only kakashi and Danzo even mention the vote. And yet while Kakashi gives you your biggest hint that you are right, at the same time you don't trust his opinion when he literally says hokage until the vote.

And Danzo is only worried about getting the vote. Nothing is suggested here other than they will be forced to approve of him if the kage do. And he's worried about it. So you can't even use this source of info in support. No specifcs of timeframe. No suggestion he is not and will not be a hokage while standing before them for a vote.

That only leaves you with one source of evidence. Danzo dying and saying he didn't get to become hokage. Now even if you argue that literally, rather than how he feels he was never a hokage at the village, I have multiple quotes from various characters against a single good example for you.

You cannot overturn the call on the field. You don't have enough information/evidence to disprove what is official in that moment, so it is not overturned. Danzo is hokage. Sorry, but I have to lawyer you on the form of this debate, not just the evidence.
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