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Old 03-05-2013, 01:26 PM   #21
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Default Re: Danzo The Sixth Hokage De Facto. Or Hokage Pro Tempore

Quote:
Originally Posted by DrKage View Post
Or he was just the man in charge simply by virtue of being one of the village elders who had wielded considerable power and authority for years, but just happened to wearing the Hokage garb waiting for the whole process to play out.

Kakashi, while being respectful, didn't act like Danzo was the Hokage, especially with how he handled Naruto and everything leading up to the Kage summit and immediately after the battle.

And who cares what other, non-Konoha people thought about anything since they have no insight as to what's happening within the village. A kage meeting get's called and Danzo shows up, with no Hokage available, he is actually the most logical choice in the village to go.
"just the man in charge" IS the Hokage. The Hokage is the leader
of the Leaf Village. Or if you go by the "strongest in the village"
then it would be a heads up between Danzo, Naruto and Kakashi
since Tsunade was out of the picture (until she woke up.)

Danzo just happened to wear the Hokage garb while the
whole process played out?

I strongly disagree. That would give the impression that
Danzo was a symbolic figure head but that wasn't the
case as Danzo did far more than a figure head could do legally.

Kakashi was being respectful because Danzo was Hokage.
The way Kakashi handled Naruto before the Kage Summit
was precisely BECAUSE Danzo was Hokage.

Who cares? International politics cares.
Non-Konoha nations may not have an "insight" into Konoha's
political climate but those in Konoha DO. Danzo is not a very popular guy, in or out of the manga. Many would even consider Danzo to be harmful
to Konoha's national interests. It doesn't make much sense for
people who vehemently oppose Danzo to just allow him to act
as the spokesperson of Konoha UNLESS Danzo was the Hokage
and they had no choice but to go along with it.
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Old 03-05-2013, 01:44 PM   #22
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Default Re: Danzo The Sixth Hokage De Facto. Or Hokage Pro Tempore

I mostly agree with what you're saying, but I question that's been floating in my mind is: Would the next successor be named 6th or 7th hokage?

Hopefully you can answer that.
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Old 03-05-2013, 02:28 PM   #23
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Default Re: Danzo The Sixth Hokage De Facto. Or Hokage Pro Tempore

Danzo had never officially been voted as he died before that could happen.

On official terms the next one should be the 6th.
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Old 03-05-2013, 04:20 PM   #24
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Default Re: Danzo The Sixth Hokage De Facto. Or Hokage Pro Tempore

Well honestly, I think it comes down to whether there was time for a jounin vote. If Danzo has to leave right away for the summit, then I will go against the official process determining the hokage.

I won't say anyone is wrong for applying the lack of vote, but in times of war, the process might be skipped for immediate action. Like special war powers.

He could have gone to the summit as a representative, and not gone as a kage who wears the kage outfit.

I would honor him in the history books as "6th hokage*." that's with an asterisk and a footnote to say the vote was skipped and he moved right into office.

He also has koto, so he probably was made official off panel. I understand this last part should not be supported.
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Old 03-06-2013, 07:37 AM   #25
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Default Re: Danzo The Sixth Hokage De Facto. Or Hokage Pro Tempore

Quote:
Originally Posted by mrsticky005 View Post
"just the man in charge" IS the Hokage. The Hokage is the leader
of the Leaf Village. Or if you go by the "strongest in the village"
then it would be a heads up between Danzo, Naruto and Kakashi
since Tsunade was out of the picture (until she woke up.)

Danzo just happened to wear the Hokage garb while the
whole process played out?

I strongly disagree. That would give the impression that
Danzo was a symbolic figure head but that wasn't the
case as Danzo did far more than a figure head could do legally.

Kakashi was being respectful because Danzo was Hokage.
The way Kakashi handled Naruto before the Kage Summit
was precisely BECAUSE Danzo was Hokage.

Who cares? International politics cares.
Non-Konoha nations may not have an "insight" into Konoha's
political climate but those in Konoha DO. Danzo is not a very popular guy, in or out of the manga. Many would even consider Danzo to be harmful
to Konoha's national interests. It doesn't make much sense for
people who vehemently oppose Danzo to just allow him to act
as the spokesperson of Konoha UNLESS Danzo was the Hokage
and they had no choice but to go along with it.
I'm not saying Danzo was a figurehead, he had authority in the village for a lot of things. But that doesn't make him Hokage. He was the point man for Konoha going to war (no one there liked him, but they all recognized his skills), doesn't make him Hokage. Kakashi seemed to hide a lot of information from Danzo and explicitly said he's not actually the Hokage until the Jonin vote on it.

If a baseball team fires a manager, they hire an interim manager until a more permanent solution is found simply because there is day to day stuff that needs to be taken care of. That's the phase Danzo was in. The world didn't stop because Tsunade was in a coma and until a permanent Hokage could be found, they turned to Danzo. He may have filled the permanent role if he didn't die, but he wasn't there yet.
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Old 03-06-2013, 07:50 AM   #26
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Default Re: Danzo The Sixth Hokage De Facto. Or Hokage Pro Tempore

And by your logic of "he was running stuff" then Homura should have been the 5th Hokage while waiting for Tsunade to come back. Oh wait, he never went through all the steps to be Hokage, and neither did Danzo. It's not enough to just be the one temporarily in change to be Hokage.
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Old 03-06-2013, 06:42 PM   #27
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Default Re: Danzo The Sixth Hokage De Facto. Or Hokage Pro Tempore

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Originally Posted by Harlequin View Post
That's just you thinking danzo is 6th hokage. If you want to see him as the sixth, go for it. You making this thread is like a religion debate, you forcing your beliefs on another who has other beliefs like I believe in Catholic and you forcing Christianity on me.

But anyway I am glad he isn't considered a kage(GJ Kishi). Bottomline is he isn't officially a hokage but just a candidate and even naruto wikia says it oh and the anime too lol.

You highlighting the [READ ME] makes it obvious you want people to see the thread and force them to recognize danzo as the sixth. Grow up
No, it's an argument. One that you replied to not a single point.
Just because you didn't like the the end of result of his well put points, doesn't mean sticking your fingers in you ears and going "la la la" changes the fact that Danzo was a Hokage.
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Old 03-06-2013, 07:57 PM   #28
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Default Re: Danzo The Sixth Hokage De Facto. Or Hokage Pro Tempore

Quote:
Originally Posted by Wooster View Post
No, it's an argument. One that you replied to not a single point.
Just because you didn't like the the end of result of his well put points, doesn't mean sticking your fingers in you ears and going "la la la" changes the fact that Danzo was a Hokage.
Yes of course I didn't like the point(Duh!) hence why I replied in this thread(derp). So he makes a thread to specifically tell people danzo is hokage.....INCREDIBLE NEWS!!! We all know by anime/naruto wikia/mangas(take your pick) danzo isn't officially hokage and never be hokage period. If OP wants to believe(who cares really)he is hokage thats fine and dandy and all except he wants to make people believe danz is hokage. Again grow up and let us all believe what we believe. I believe the anime/naruto wikia/manga(yes take your pick) over you or OP.
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Old 03-07-2013, 05:53 AM   #29
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Default Re: Danzo The Sixth Hokage De Facto. Or Hokage Pro Tempore

Quote:
Originally Posted by Harlequin View Post
Yes of course I didn't like the point(Duh!) hence why I replied in this thread(derp). So he makes a thread to specifically tell people danzo is hokage.....INCREDIBLE NEWS!!! We all know by anime/naruto wikia/mangas(take your pick) danzo isn't officially hokage and never be hokage period. If OP wants to believe(who cares really)he is hokage thats fine and dandy and all except he wants to make people believe danz is hokage. Again grow up and let us all believe what we believe. I believe the anime/naruto wikia/manga(yes take your pick) over you or OP.
For the umpteenth time I'm NOT trying to MAKE anybody do anything.
I made this thread because I wanted to go into more detail
about why I think Danzo should be considered the Sixth Hokage.
If you don't like that then that's fine. But don't tell me to
"grow up" when you're being the most immature out of anybody here.

The "worst" thing I did was ACCIDENTALLY label this thread as
READ ME and as you can see I owned up to my mistake and
CHANGED the thread title.

But you're acting like I forcefully put you in this thread
held you up to gun point and said "agree with me or die"
and that's clearly not the case. The only person
who's MAKING you be an immature brat is yourself.
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Old 03-07-2013, 05:59 AM   #30
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Default Re: Danzo The Sixth Hokage De Facto. Or Hokage Pro Tempore

Quote:
Originally Posted by DrKage View Post
And by your logic of "he was running stuff" then Homura should have been the 5th Hokage while waiting for Tsunade to come back. Oh wait, he never went through all the steps to be Hokage, and neither did Danzo. It's not enough to just be the one temporarily in change to be Hokage.
Homura was never appointed Hokage by the Fire Lord.

Danzo was. Big difference.

Also refresh my memory of when Homura actually gave orders?

Though in reply to your other thread I would actually agree with the term "Interim Hokage".
What I don't agree on is that Candidate Hokage fits the bill of what Danzo was.
Again, note that I'm not saying Danzo was OFFICIALLY Hokage but Hokage IN PRACTICE.
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Old 03-07-2013, 06:12 AM   #31
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Default Re: Danzo The Sixth Hokage De Facto. Or Hokage Pro Tempore

Quote:
Originally Posted by mrsticky005 View Post
Homura was never appointed Hokage by the Fire Lord.

Danzo was. Big difference.

Also refresh my memory of when Homura actually gave orders?

Though in reply to your other thread I would actually agree with the term "Interim Hokage".
What I don't agree on is that Candidate Hokage fits the bill of what Danzo was.
Again, note that I'm not saying Danzo was OFFICIALLY Hokage but Hokage IN PRACTICE.
Homura as ready to put forth Jiraiya and then made the decision to wait for them to find Tsunade. And while the story focused on Jiraiya and Naruto, someone (probably Homura) was running the day to day stuff in the village, assigning missions, etc.

And Hokages, once nominated and confirmed, basically have unfettered authority over the village until they die or retire. Danzo did not because he could still be voted down by the Jonin if they didn't like his decisions.

That's one of the main reasons he was never Hokage before and why he tried so hard to get it this time because he knew his past actions had made him unpopular and if he led the Konoha efforts satisfactorily, he would be voted in, have no way to be removed and be able to push his philosophy (which was very different form all the other Hokages, except maybe the second) without fear of retribution.

That's the difference between Hokage and a Hokage-in-practice, interim or whatever. It's the knowledge that you are the final word on what happens to the whole village and it's that responsibility that Jiraiya didn't want.
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Old 03-07-2013, 07:17 AM   #32
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Default Re: Danzo The Sixth Hokage De Facto. Or Hokage Pro Tempore

Quote:
Originally Posted by DrKage View Post
Homura as ready to put forth Jiraiya and then made the decision to wait for them to find Tsunade. And while the story focused on Jiraiya and Naruto, someone (probably Homura) was running the day to day stuff in the village, assigning missions, etc.

And Hokages, once nominated and confirmed, basically have unfettered authority over the village until they die or retire. Danzo did not because he could still be voted down by the Jonin if they didn't like his decisions.

That's one of the main reasons he was never Hokage before and why he tried so hard to get it this time because he knew his past actions had made him unpopular and if he led the Konoha efforts satisfactorily, he would be voted in, have no way to be removed and be able to push his philosophy (which was very different form all the other Hokages, except maybe the second) without fear of retribution.

That's the difference between Hokage and a Hokage-in-practice, interim or whatever. It's the knowledge that you are the final word on what happens to the whole village and it's that responsibility that Jiraiya didn't want.
So then you don't actually know if Homura was giving orders or not.
Whereas we know for a fact that Danzo gave orders.

It's true that the Jonin could vote against Danzo if they didn't like him
but Konoha was in an emergency situation which postponed the
jonin vote. Normally the jonin vote should come BEFORE the
Kage Summit as it wouldn't make any sense to send someone
you DON'T want representing you in an international field
but because of the situation they had to appoint someone
to act as Hokage and that was Danzo.

I'm thinking we actually agree more than we disagree because
we both agree Danzo was Hokage in practice but not Hokage
in an official sense. My argument was never to call Danzo
the official sixth hokage but rather a more appropriate term
than Hokage Candidate and to show why in a De Facto sense
that Danzo was Hokage.
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Old 03-07-2013, 02:58 PM   #33
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Default Re: Danzo The Sixth Hokage De Facto. Or Hokage Pro Tempore

Danzo, for the time being was a Hokage but not with full credentials and not an official Hokage even though he gave orders.

Since he wasn't official and not known by the whole village during that period of time, this does not make him a 6th Hokage thus making the next Hokage (most likely Naruto) to be the 6th and just count Danzo as a temporary Hokage without being included in the line of the Hokages.
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Old 03-07-2013, 05:57 PM   #34
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Default Re: Danzo The Sixth Hokage De Facto. Or Hokage Pro Tempore

Quote:
Originally Posted by mrsticky005 View Post
For the umpteenth time I'm NOT trying to MAKE anybody do anything.
I made this thread because I wanted to go into more detail
about why I think Danzo should be considered the Sixth Hokage.
If you don't like that then that's fine. But don't tell me to
"grow up" when you're being the most immature out of anybody here.

The "worst" thing I did was ACCIDENTALLY label this thread as
READ ME and as you can see I owned up to my mistake and
CHANGED the thread title.

But you're acting like I forcefully put you in this thread
held you up to gun point and said "agree with me or die"
and that's clearly not the case. The only person
who's MAKING you be an immature brat is yourself.
Me? Immature? .....lol just look at this thread. As I said before its fine and dandy you think danzo is hokage and yes you are forcing the fact that danzo in your opinion is hokage. Didn't you just quote to on me from a previous thread that you tagged along and said danzo is 6th hokage and blah blah then came this thread why you think danzo is hokage(like I said fine and dandy) but you would obviously just quote anyone when you see posting anything relating to danzo, his status.on being hokage etc. And yes grow up and stop telling people danzo is the 6th hokage. Yes anyone believes the naruto manga/naruto wikia/anime over you.
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Old 03-07-2013, 06:21 PM   #35
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Default Re: Danzo The Sixth Hokage De Facto. Or Hokage Pro Tempore

what is there to discuss. This topic is so old/silly IMO

Danzo is not and never will be the hokage YET!!!!!!!!!!!! He had hokage like abilities and power to be LIKE an hokage.

Ex:subsitute teacher
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Old 03-07-2013, 06:24 PM   #36
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Default Re: Danzo The Sixth Hokage De Facto. Or Hokage Pro Tempore

Quote:
Originally Posted by PrinceofPeace View Post
what is there to discuss. This topic is so old/silly IMO

Danzo is not and never will be the hokage YET!!!!!!!!!!!! He had hokage like abilities and power to be LIKE an hokage.

Ex:subsitute teacher
That's my point! Very well said, even better then my long sentences.

P.S. my stupid cellphone
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Old 03-07-2013, 07:50 PM   #37
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Default Re: Danzo The Sixth Hokage De Facto. Or Hokage Pro Tempore

Quote:
Originally Posted by PrinceofPeace View Post
what is there to discuss. This topic is so old/silly IMO

Danzo is not and never will be the hokage YET!!!!!!!!!!!! He had hokage like abilities and power to be LIKE an hokage.

Ex:subsitute teacher
Yet? So you think Danzo will be Hokage in the future?
I guess you're even more optimistic about Danzo than I am!
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Old 03-07-2013, 08:05 PM   #38
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Default Re: Danzo The Sixth Hokage De Facto. Or Hokage Pro Tempore

So there was a secret vote and Danzo really did become hokage. And made all the decisions, but it was top secret and only 3 people knew. They were gonna take the usual step of the jounin vote, but he died.

However they legally circumvented the process by making an emergency war powers vote. So he was legally official. But the common citizen and ninja never knew that he was hokage. Then the elders and fire daimyo decided that it was better to erase those records, rather than muddle the news.

So to everyone, he was never hokage, but it doesn't mean he wasn't.

Compromise?
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Old 03-07-2013, 09:03 PM   #39
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Default Re: Danzo The Sixth Hokage De Facto. Or Hokage Pro Tempore

Quote:
Originally Posted by Inuzica View Post
I mostly agree with what you're saying, but I question that's been floating in my mind is: Would the next successor be named 6th or 7th hokage?

Hopefully you can answer that.
As Vivi said officially the next is 6th it would be as so

Hashirama--1
Tobirama--2
Hiruzen--3
Minato--4
Tsunade--5
???---6


Historically however...

Hashirama--1
Tobirama--2
Hiruzen--3
Minato--4

Here's where things get messy

Hiruzen is called the third Hokage however using the Grover Cleveland
argument you could call him the 5th Hokage as he was not only
Hokage before Minato but also after. This would mean Hiruzen
was the 3rd and 5th Hokage and had served two distinct terms.
The problem is that if you say Hiruzen was only the 3rd
then either you'd have to conclude Minato was never the 4th
or that Hiruzen was not actually Hokage after Minato died.

So either...


Hashirama--1
Tobirama--2
Hiruzen--3
Minato--4
Tsunae--5

or


Hashirama--1
Tobirama--2
Hiruzen--3
Minato--4
Hiruzen--5
Tsunade--6


Then you got Danzo. He wasn't officially Hokage however
he did act as Hokage and was given emergency powers.
In the same way Manuel Noreiga was leader of Panama
you can call Danzo Hokage De Facto so again either.
Also because Tsunade returned to being Hokage
after Danzo died what her current number is also
depends.



Hashirama--1
Tobirama--2
Hiruzen--3
Minato--4
Tsunade-5

Hashirama--1
Tobirama--2
Hiruzen--3
Minato--4
Hiruzen--5
Tsunae--6

Hashirama--1
Tobirama--2
Hiruzen--3
Minato--4
Tsunade-5
Danzo--6
Tsunade--7

Hashirama--1
Tobirama--2
Hiruzen--3
Minato--4
Hiruzen--5
Tsunade--6
Danzo--7
Tsunade--8

Which makes the next hokage anywhere from the 6th, 7th, 8th or 9th

9th Hokage would fit naruto well

and hey if you want to add in Kakashi


Hashirama--1
Tobirama--2
Hiruzen--3
Minato--4
Hiruzen-5
Tsunade-6
Danzo-7
Kakashi-8
Tsunade-9
???--10
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Old 03-07-2013, 09:06 PM   #40
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Default Re: Danzo The Sixth Hokage De Facto. Or Hokage Pro Tempore

Quote:
Originally Posted by paradigm1977 View Post
So there was a secret vote and Danzo really did become hokage. And made all the decisions, but it was top secret and only 3 people knew. They were gonna take the usual step of the jounin vote, but he died.

However they legally circumvented the process by making an emergency war powers vote. So he was legally official. But the common citizen and ninja never knew that he was hokage. Then the elders and fire daimyo decided that it was better to erase those records, rather than muddle the news.

So to everyone, he was never hokage, but it doesn't mean he wasn't.

Compromise?
Sounds like something they would do.
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