Spoiler Rate Tobirama

[Glass Pineapples]

I think I've thought of an accurate analogy.

Tobirama isn't prejudiced against the Uchihas the same way that Nazis and Neo-Nazis are prejudiced against Jewish people.

It's like people with bears. I don't hate bears. I don't think they're inherently bad or inferior to humans (or any other species). I certainly wouldn't want to be around one when it's hungry or pissed off, though, and I wouldn't feel safe if there were bears that hang out in my neighborhood.

[PrinceofPeace]

your kiddin right?

The sceniro is different. Hashirama and the "bears" lived peacefully
so when Tobirama took action he did not trust the "bears" which was wrong and un-needed.
The "bears" did not provke anyone. WHy watch a bear if it does not cause trouble.


I guess its like when I was in kindergarten and gurls where scared of spiders
Dont mess with the "spiders" and the "spiders" dont mess with you XD

[PrinceofPeace]

Originally Posted by Drake_Stephens

and here is your one mistake. What did Tobirama do to cause outrage and suspicion from the Uchiha?
-He distanced them from the village
-He watched over them (shows distrust)
-Did not listen to Hashirama's advice
-Even Oro said it was Tobirama who cornerd the Uchiha by appointing them the Police Corp job
-People who control crime tend to be disliked and the people with power becoming conceited
All of this promoted the Madara sympithizers
From what I have read and how the series has went along, the Uchiha liked the job of being the police force.
Proof of this please^
And mostly they all seemed like happy people outside of Madara, Obito, and Sasuke. We don't know the reason behind the Coup' d'etat it has never been stated. Everything I've seen you argue has been on unproven statements you've been making.

You did not use any proof lol so how can you say I did not?

[Ultimate combatant]

Originally Posted by PrinceofPeace

-He distanced them from the village

Yes, but they were still part of a village. And they had authority and high positions.

Originally Posted by PrinceofPeace

-He watched over them (shows distrust)

Considering there was a danger of someone like Madara, it was somewhat justified.

Originally Posted by PrinceofPeace

-Did not listen to Hashirama's advice

Most likely, Hashirama gave his brother many advices. Tobirama probably listened to many of them. Just like, if your parents give you advices. You listen to most of them but probably sometimes do something you think is better!!!

Originally Posted by PrinceofPeace

-Even Oro said it was Tobirama who cornerd the Uchiha by appointing them the Police Corp job

Yes, he did. But it also shows a certain level of trust. Would you let police and prison be controlled by someone you don't trust at all?
Even Tobirama said he understood Uchiha clan had it rough so he tried to give them a role in which they could do well.

And Uchiha clan didn't mind having such a role. They didn't rebel. They decided to rebel quite some time after his death.

And Tobirama would probably trust them more over time.

Originally Posted by PrinceofPeace

-People who control crime tend to be disliked and the people with power becoming conceited
All of this promoted the Madara sympithizers

If he gave it to some other clan, that other clan would be in the same position as the Uchiha were!!!

Originally Posted by PrinceofPeace

From what I have read and how the series has went along, the Uchiha liked the job of being the police force.
Proof of this please^

Sasuke's dad and Itachi were telling Sasuke how proud he should be that their dad Fugaku Uchiha was leader of Konoha Police!!!

[PrinceofPeace]

Originally Posted by Ultimate combatant

Yes, but they were still part of a village. And they had authority and high positions.
Yes they were part of the village in papaer....but that is like being a part of a city but being all the way on the outskirts of town. It is like being in a classroom but your desk is in the corner of the room away from the others. Why were the Uchiha's the only ones treated this way? The Uchiha's did not have a say if they wanted that position or to be so far away from the village. How would one feel to be distanced from their "own vilage". This alone proves distrust of the Uchiha. TObirama did not want them near the village. The Uchiha's and thier positions could have been closer to the village. I already discussed about thier "Positons" some do not like those who control crime and it gives the Uchiha a big head at times. Its like a school's hall mointor being a kid. The position gives them a big head and too much "power". The Uchiha's could not even punish people they had limitations. They could not do anything about the ANBU. ANd no Uchiha was an ANBU and could be the kind of people who were watching the Uchiha.




Considering there was a danger of someone like Madara, it was somewhat justified.
It was NOT NEEDED!! Hashirama trusted them and did not watch over them. There were no Madara supporters/follers. BUt Tobirama's actions caused their to be Madara sympthizers. The Uchiah were fine with Hashirama. Hashirama did nothing with/to them...he pretty much did nothing just left them alone. Which is what Tobirama shoud have done. THe Uchiha's were not planning anything before Tobirama's reign nor before The Uchiah;'s found out Tobirama's intentions



Most likely, Hashirama gave his brother many advices. Tobirama probably listened to many of them. Just like, if your parents give you advices. You listen to most of them but probably sometimes do something you think is better!!!
what are you talking about "most likely"? You read the latest chp. Hashirama scolded him for going against his advice.
ANd in this case Tobirama was WRONG! What he thought was right was WRONG! GOing against Hashirama's wishes did nothing good.


Yes, he did. But it also shows a certain level of trust. Would you let police and prison be controlled by someone you don't trust at all?
Even Tobirama said he understood Uchiha clan had it rough so he tried to give them a role in which they could do well.
how was it trust if Tobirama was watching them? Tobirama was not watching any other clan. ANd the Uchiha did not give a reason for Tobirama not to trust them. The Uchiha ditched Madara for the leaf afterall. And the Uchiha did not do anything to cause distrust ever since Madara. One person can not be blamed for a whole clan. ESPECIALLY when the clans people ditch that person.

And Uchiha clan didn't mind having such a role. They didn't rebel. They decided to rebel quite some time after his death.
Proof that the Uchiha did not mind such a role? Rebeling is not something you do in a day. It takes time and planning. They are not bloolusted people that attack as soon as they are displeased

And Tobirama would probably trust them more over time.
Unproven.



If he gave it to some other clan, that other clan would be in the same position as the Uchiha were!!!
assumin^




Sasuke's dad and Itachi were telling Sasuke how proud he should be that their dad Fugaku Uchiha was leader of Konoha Police!!!

You do know that his dad was the leader of the coup't da right?
THey turned the police into a cover up.
Fugaku was proud to have a person so strong as Itachi to be apart of their coup to attack the village
Did you not listen to Obito?

[Glass Pineapples]

Originally Posted by PrinceofPeace

your kiddin right?

Yes .

[PrinceofPeace]

phew!

[Ultimate combatant]

Originally Posted by PrinceofPeace

Yes they were part of the village in papaer....but that is like being a part of a city but being all the way on the outskirts of town. It is like being in a classroom but your desk is in the corner of the room away from the others. Why were the Uchiha's the only ones treated this way? The Uchiha's did not have a say if they wanted that position or to be so far away from the village. How would one feel to be distanced from their "own vilage". This alone proves distrust of the Uchiha. TObirama did not want them near the village. The Uchiha's and thier positions could have been closer to the village. I already discussed about thier "Positons" some do not like those who control crime and it gives the Uchiha a big head at times. Its like a school's hall mointor being a kid. The position gives them a big head and too much "power". The Uchiha's could not even punish people they had limitations. They could not do anything about the ANBU. ANd no Uchiha was an ANBU and could be the kind of people who were watching the Uchiha.

Yes, Tobirama did place them in the outskirts. Which is kinder than Hiruzen killing them.

And you say Uchiha could not be ANBU. But don't you remember Itachi was ANBU, too?!!

So, Uchiha could be ANBU. Uchiha could be Jonin. And if some Uchiha one day, was a good candidate of being a Hokage (like Itachi or Shisui, if things turned out differently), he most likely would've become Hokage at some point.

Originally Posted by PrinceofPeace

It was NOT NEEDED!! Hashirama trusted them and did not watch over them. There were no Madara supporters/follers. BUt Tobirama's actions caused their to be Madara sympthizers. The Uchiah were fine with Hashirama. Hashirama did nothing with/to them...he pretty much did nothing just left them alone. Which is what Tobirama shoud have done. THe Uchiha's were not planning anything before Tobirama's reign nor before The Uchiah;'s found out Tobirama's intentions

Tobirama clearly thought it was needed. And it turned out that during his time, there wasn't a Shinobi following Madara's footsteps.

Now, I'll agree with you that Tobirama made a mistake. Obviously, what Hashirama did was better.

But if they felt trusted when Hiruzen became Hokage, why didn't they stop their plans? Obviously, Hiruzen didn't show them enough trust.

Originally Posted by PrinceofPeace

what are you talking about "most likely"? You read the latest chp. Hashirama scolded him for going against his advice.
ANd in this case Tobirama was WRONG! What he thought was right was WRONG! GOing against Hashirama's wishes did nothing good.

Yes, Tobirama's choice was wrong. But just because Hashirama said it so, doesn't make the other choice right. Tobirama was a Hokage, he had to make his own choices.

Problem is, that he made wrong ones!!!

Originally Posted by PrinceofPeace

how was it trust if Tobirama was watching them? Tobirama was not watching any other clan. ANd the Uchiha did not give a reason for Tobirama not to trust them. The Uchiha ditched Madara for the leaf afterall. And the Uchiha did not do anything to cause distrust ever since Madara. One person can not be blamed for a whole clan. ESPECIALLY when the clans people ditch that person.

If you put someone in a position of power, you show some trust. If you trusted someone, would you put them in power over police?

Originally Posted by PrinceofPeace

Proof that the Uchiha did not mind such a role? Rebeling is not something you do in a day. It takes time and planning. They are not bloolusted people that attack as soon as they are displeased

They would stop if Hiruzen showed them some trust. They would not be proud over their police.

Originally Posted by PrinceofPeace

Unproven.

Originally Posted by PrinceofPeace

assumin^

Well, we should probably wait to see, if we will be shown more about that!!!

Originally Posted by PrinceofPeace

You do know that his dad was the leader of the coup't da right?
THey turned the police into a cover up.
Fugaku was proud to have a person so strong as Itachi to be apart of their coup to attack the village
Did you not listen to Obito?

Yes, he was. He was proud but it turned out, Itachi wasn't what he thought he was.

Also, when Itachi had to choose between Fugaku, his father or Hiruzen, Hokage, he chose for Hokage. So, even if Uchiha were distrusted, they should've been loyal to show they are worthy of trust!!!

[MWolman1990]

something that stands out to me is that even though tobirama seems to have prejudice against the uchiha, he did not actually take any action to harm them. it was during the thirds time, and although the story states that the third did not approve of the uchiha slaughter, it still happened under his watch. to me this alone should make people realize that the second isnt as bad as it seems, we cant say for sure, but for some reason i dont think he wouldve approved of this. also, another thing to keep in mind, because of the fact that he didnt actually persecute them, but later, after his time, ended up planing of coup, his presumptions did end up being correct. its not like he took action against a clan that never ended up doing anything bad towards the village, they wanted to take over the village..

[PrinceofPeace]

Originally Posted by Ultimate combatant

Yes, Tobirama did place them in the outskirts. Which is kinder than Hiruzen killing them.
are you serious? Please tell me what chp it says that hiruzen wanted to kill the uchiha. I dare you to find it. Hiruzen was the only one who was against the massacre. Tobirama gave them the position so they would be easier to watch. The position had more drawbacks then positive ones

And you say Uchiha could not be ANBU. But don't you remember Itachi was ANBU, too?!!
again are you kidding? Itachi was a double agent. He was against his own clan I even believe that he was not apart of the police. Itachi was the only uchiha they trusted

So, Uchiha could be ANBU. Uchiha could be Jonin. And if some Uchiha one day, was a good candidate of being a Hokage (like Itachi or Shisui, if things turned out differently), he most likely would've become Hokage at some point.

uchiha can be jonin never said they could not. But only itachi was an AnBu and he was a special exception. The uchiha would dream of becoming hokage..... Not that it would ever happen. No uchiha that was for the uchiha were AnBu

Tobirama clearly thought it was needed. And it turned out that during his time, there wasn't a Shinobi following Madara's footsteps.
yea tobirama THOUGHT it was needed but he was wrong. The uchiha gave no signs of following Madara for crying out loud they ditched him. Tobirama received no reason from the uchiha to watch of seperate them

But if they felt trusted when Hiruzen became Hokage, why didn't they stop their plans? Obviously, Hiruzen didn't show them enough trust.

idk on ^. There is not enough info on that. The point is tobirama started the distrust

Yes, Tobirama's choice was wrong. But just because Hashirama said it so, doesn't make the other choice right. Tobirama was a Hokage, he had to make his own choices.

Problem is, that he made wrong ones!!!
at least we agree that tobirama'd actions were wrong



If you put someone in a position of power, you show some trust. If you trusted someone, would you put them in power over police?

what good came out of the uchiha being the police? Tobirama trusted the people watching the uchiha which were the ANBU. Another reason why tobirama gave then power was so that they would be easier to watch

They would stop if Hiruzen showed them some trust. They would not be proud over their police.
[B]from what we know hiruzen was nothing but kind to uchiha. The uchiha are not quick to forgive (apparently just like tobirama) the uchiha were provoked and they were still being surpressed by the rules tobirama set[B]



Yes, he was. He was proud but it turned out, Itachi wasn't what he thought he was.

Also, when Itachi had to choose between Fugaku, his father or Hiruzen, Hokage, he chose for Hokage. So, even if Uchiha were distrusted, they should've been loyal to show they are worthy of trust!!!

The uchiha constantly showed their alligence. But they are a proud powerful clan that wanted to be treated with fairness. It is not right for the uchiha to keep being the dogs on the senju leash. Nothing would have changed the hokage showed no signs of letting up on watching them. The uchiha did not need to prove their alligence and trustworthiness because they already did. The uchiha were patient but provoked. They were disrespected and frayed unfairly against the leaf village. So your saying the uchiha should have taken the disrespect like slaves? Heck no they are on of the strongest in the clan and deserve respect. They were already loyal and treated wrong so why would this time be any difference?

[MWolman1990]

and also to add to people saying he shouldve done what hashirama did, you must remember, hashirama was beyond powerful and that is the only reason why the uchiha didnt do anything against him. they COULDNT even if they wanted to. Tobirama on the other hand wasnt as powerful as hashi and and therefore had to take a different approach to containing a potential threat (potential at the time which turned out to actually be a threat! he was right!)

[PrinceofPeace]

So your saying he was a scared wuss? Not only was hashirama strong but he trusted the uchiha and was a great and fair leader
Unlike tobirama who was not

[Kioroshi.]

Tobirama is awesome and idk why are you hating on him?cuz he is weaker then hashirama or are you a sasuke fan? ._.

[PrinceofPeace]

No saskue fan here
And I would not call him awesome. Are you a tobirama fan? How is he so awesome when he feared his villagers and caused distrust and created edo tensi and could not stabilize peace

I only give him credit for establishing like 3 things.... Which was not a major feat

[paradigm1977]

Originally Posted by PrinceofPeace

The uchiha constantly showed their alligence. But they are a proud powerful clan that wanted to be treated with fairness. It is not right for the uchiha to keep being the dogs on the senju leash. Nothing would have changed the hokage showed no signs of letting up on watching them. The uchiha did not need to prove their alligence and trustworthiness because they already did. The uchiha were patient but provoked. They were disrespected and frayed unfairly against the leaf village. So your saying the uchiha should have taken the disrespect like slaves? Heck no they are on of the strongest in the clan and deserve respect. They were already loyal and treated wrong so why would this time be any difference?

All this is based on you taking the words of Orochimaru over Tobirama. Even Hashirama's reaction of "I told you not to persecute them," is based on what Orochimaru said, not what Tobirama said. I disproved all of your points in various colors above on page 4, post 79 of this thread. I gave page numbers and quotes, but you never addressed it.

Here's a point that keeps Tobirama from being wrong for moving the Uchiha to the outskirts of the village. "(actual quote given before, but this part is close enough) "Rebellious elements following Madara's will, were hiding in the clan." So obviously the Uchiha can't police themselves, or there wouldn't continue to be rebellious elements and the Uchiha wouldn't have to be moved. You think the Hokage can't order the leader of the Uchiha to clean his mess up, and hand over the conspirators? Tobirama, obviously has some kind of contact/spy in the uchiha just as Hiruzen did to find out about the planned revolt. You just ignore this information, that's given in the manga.

And the point about Tobirama essentially saying "figures the Uchiha is with the enemy?" Well, he had his issues with Uchiha, he said that "they almost always turn bad once they unlock the eye/brain powers," and low and behold, he's RIGHT on Sasuke doing harm. Remember Karin? Remember SAsuke's own words about destruction and darkness?

So because Tobirama is egotistical about his correct opinion on Sasuke, people think he's racist, yet he is right about who Sasuke is. Further, would a truly good person, work with Orochimaru to find answers that truly aren't important in the present?

There's a reason Tobirama has so many A+ votes.

In the present, these would be decisions against terrorists. That is what the Uchiha were doing according to Tobirama's words. Harboring terrorists. And unlike races in real life, clans in Naruto are tight knit, so ignorance is no excuse.

I'd like to read someones counterpoint on what I've mentioned. But no one did earlier this thread.

[PrinceofPeace]

Originally Posted by paradigm1977

Page 12 bottom left panel.

"There were some rebellious elements that secretly followed Madara's will." rebellious does not mean, like a rebellious teenager. When miltary or a politician say rebelious elements. They are saying rebels, that are organized towards their cause and are in action. and after that he states "Madara's will" That doesn't mean his philosophy, will, means taking orders from. So we have an organized rebel force in the village, taking orders from their former leader who attacked the village, and they are hiding among their clan.
it was page 11 for me lol
Tobirama talks about "rebellious elements" but he does not go into detail or when the "elemtns" took place
Obivously according to oro and Tobi the "elements" started when Tobirama created the Police force and wathced them. So again Tobirama provoked them for no good reason.

Are you just for argument deciding that we can't trust what he says as honest reasoning?
who?


Then Oro says you banished them to the outskirts of the village. continues page 13 middle left panel "This also promoted the Madara sympathizers."
yes.....

"Promoted" does not mean created. it means supported. It means there were already bad guys and the police force strengthened their movement. sympathizers are not members but are helpers. So the police force increased the number of helpers to Madara's rebel force.
It does not mean they wanted to do bad things. They just FELT SORRY FOR MADARA. They realized that Madara's prediction was true. They realized that Madra was no warlike monster. They felt guilty for ditching their leader who worked so hard. There wre Madara SYMPATHIZERS not Konoha HATERS.
There is a difference.

The leader of the Uchiha attacked the village, and had supporters still in the village, hiding among his clan.
Where is your proof of this? Hashirama was still in charge so Tobirama did not get a chance to mess with the Uchiha. The Uchiha supported hashirama and not madara at the time.
This is a military decision.
Hashirama did not make Decisions like this and the uchiha did not rebell
He did not attack the whole clan, or force arrests, he separated them a bit in location from the rest of the villagers.
so they would be easier to watchover
And tried to give them a way to vent, by letting them be a police force and get rough if they need to let it out a little.
The Uchiah did not ask for this. They are not a bloolusted clan. The police had resticitions and they could not be ANBU or persecute ANBU and teh ANBU were the ones watching the Uchiha.
And a strong police force would promote peace in the village. It's the best decision he thought he could make all around.
Tobirama tried to do the right thing but messed up by keeping tabs on them cuz Tobirama was in fear of the Uchiha. The As Oro said the ones who control crime tend to be disliked and become concieted

And he didn't start it.

Yes Tobirama did

[PrinceofPeace]

Originally Posted by paradigm1977

All this is based on you taking the words of Orochimaru over Tobirama. Even Hashirama's reaction of "I told you not to persecute them," is based on what Orochimaru said, not what Tobirama said. I disproved all of your points in various colors above on page 4, post 79 of this thread. I gave page numbers and quotes, but you never addressed it.
Thanks I addressed it.
And not only Oro's words but Tobirama's words as well. You can not prove what they said were wrong.

Here's a point that keeps Tobirama from being wrong for moving the Uchiha to the outskirts of the village. "(actual quote given before, but this part is close enough) "Rebellious elements following Madara's will, were hiding in the clan." So obviously the Uchiha can't police themselves, or there wouldn't continue to be rebellious elements and the Uchiha wouldn't have to be moved. You think the Hokage can't order the leader of the Uchiha to clean his mess up, and hand over the conspirators? Tobirama, obviously has some kind of contact/spy in the uchiha just as Hiruzen did to find out about the planned revolt.
^You are assuming here. Tobirama got this info with the ANBU.
You just ignore this information, that's given in the manga.

The "rebellious elements" occured AFTER Tobirama moved them and watched over them. Tobirama caused the rebellious elements

And the point about Tobirama essentially saying "figures the Uchiha is with the enemy?" Well, he had his issues with Uchiha, he said that "they almost always turn bad once they unlock the eye/brain powers," and low and behold, he's RIGHT on Sasuke doing harm. Remember Karin? Remember SAsuke's own words about destruction and darkness?
Gaining new eye power does not make them evil.
Itachi, Shishi , and young Saskue are proof of this
Like anybody the Uchiha are provoked to be evil.
Tobirama watching over them provoked them

So because Tobirama is egotistical about his correct opinion on Sasuke, people think he's racist, yet he is right about who Sasuke is. Further, would a truly good person, work with Orochimaru to find answers that truly aren't important in the present?
he is not right about ALL Uchiha (look at peole I mentioned above)

There's a reason Tobirama has so many A+ votes.
Really now?
So
-Creating ET
-No litening to his bro
-Not trusting the Uchiha
-Not creating peace with others
Makes him deserve and A+??????????

In the present, these would be decisions against terrorists. That is what the Uchiha were doing according to Tobirama's words. Harboring terrorists. And unlike races in real life, clans in Naruto are tight knit, so ignorance is no excuse.
yeah and look of how doing that in real life got us

I'd like to read someones counterpoint on what I've mentioned. But no one did earlier this thread.

Sorry bra I was on my phone and it was harder to counter. Plus I was tired and stuff. BUT I DID IT

[paradigm1977]

my original comment in white
yours red.
my new in lt. blue

Originally Posted by paradigm1977
Page 12 bottom left panel.

"There were some rebellious elements that secretly followed Madara's will." rebellious does not mean, like a rebellious teenager. When miltary or a politician say rebelious elements. They are saying rebels, that are organized towards their cause and are in action. and after that he states "Madara's will" That doesn't mean his philosophy, will, means taking orders from. So we have an organized rebel force in the village, taking orders from their former leader who attacked the village, and they are hiding among their clan.
it was page 11 for me lol
Tobirama talks about "rebellious elements" but he does not go into detail or when the "elemtns" took place
Obivously according to oro and Tobi the "elements" started when Tobirama created the Police force and wathced them. So again Tobirama provoked them for no good reason.

Yes according to those two. And Tobirama doesnt go into detail, that is why it is more correct to believe the rebellious elements came before the move to the outskirts, because otherwise you have no reason to support his supposed motivation of moving them. It's just to assume he had no reason. That is a bigger assumption of a hokage than what I'm stating.

Further, it is more likely that thopse following Madara's will rather than the will of who the rebellious leader was in the clan occured not too long after Madara left. Not one day later on reconnecting with him.

Are you just for argument deciding that we can't trust what he says as honest reasoning?
who?


Then Oro says you banished them to the outskirts of the village. continues page 13 middle left panel "This also promoted the Madara sympathizers."
yes.....

"Promoted" does not mean created. it means supported. It means there were already bad guys and the police force strengthened their movement. sympathizers are not members but are helpers. So the police force increased the number of helpers to Madara's rebel force.
It does not mean they wanted to do bad things. They just FELT SORRY FOR MADARA. They realized that Madara's prediction was true. They realized that Madra was no warlike monster. They felt guilty for ditching their leader who worked so hard. There wre Madara SYMPATHIZERS not Konoha HATERS.
There is a difference.

Madara returned to attack the Leaf with the Kyuubi, before Tobirama's time as hokage. So immediately and unequivecally disproves your point of Uchiha feeling sorry for madara. And rebellious elements means rebels against government or the status quo. That also disproves your point. And you are confusing the "sympathizers," with the "rebellious element." And you are connecting the sympathizers with Madara, when you should be connecting them to supporting the rebel movement since they were pigeon holed into the police force. That was the context given by Orochimaru. the police force does not affect Madara, so a police force promoting sympathizers is about the rebel movement/"elements."

The leader of the Uchiha attacked the village, and had supporters still in the village, hiding among his clan.
Where is your proof of this? Hashirama was still in charge so Tobirama did not get a chance to mess with the Uchiha. The Uchiha supported hashirama and not madara at the time.

I know this because Madara was long gone. They would have formed their own leadership within konoha if the rebel movement occured later on, after Tobirama became Hokage. But since they follow Madara's will, an outcast, there you go. Maybe they supported Hashirama in the beginning because he was a nice guy. Seems obvious as to why he was chosen Hokage, given everything we say of him in ch. 619. And maybe they supported him later, because he kept Madara from destroying their homes and village.

This is a military decision.

Hashirama did not make Decisions like this and the uchiha did not rebell

Rebellious elements, means those conspiring together to interfere with goverment or status quo. Kishi chose those words. And Hashirama is not very bright anyway. So there is no need to compare them. And my previous light blue response.

He did not attack the whole clan, or force arrests, he separated them a bit in location from the rest of the villagers.

so they would be easier to watchover

Yes we all know that, so that's not a rebuttle really.

And tried to give them a way to vent, by letting them be a police force and get rough if they need to let it out a little.

The Uchiah did not ask for this. They are not a bloolusted clan. The police had resticitions and they could not be ANBU or persecute ANBU and teh ANBU were the ones watching the Uchiha.

They hid their rebellious elements/movement. Aiding and abetting. Again a clan isn't a race. It is tight-knit, and maybe if the Uchiha clan leader could lead, Tobirama wouldn't have to take those steps. Again they are following the lead/will of Madara, a terrorist.

And a strong police force would promote peace in the village. It's the best decision he thought he could make all around.

Tobirama tried to do the right thing but messed up by keeping tabs on them cuz Tobirama was in fear of the Uchiha. The As Oro said the ones who control crime tend to be disliked and become concieted

No, the Uchiha couldn't police themselves. That's the basis of the PAST AND THE PRESENT. why else do you think Itachi agreed to kill them all, rather than give his clan a fare fight. Your counter would probably be something like, the village would come first and he didnt want all the deaths. Well Itachi thought like a hokage at 7, supposedly. And neither he nor Hiruzen could work out a peaceful compromise? WHY? Why, I ask, WHY? They wanted peace.

And of course he kept tabs in my opinion because Im going off the rebel presence being present the whole time.

[PrinceofPeace]

^God bless America
*salutes wall of txt*

[paradigm1977]

from your second post response to mine. Sorry guys, two posts to prevent a super text wall.

PoP in red, my new stuff in light blue

Originally Posted by paradigm1977
All this is based on you taking the words of Orochimaru over Tobirama. Even Hashirama's reaction of "I told you not to persecute them," is based on what Orochimaru said, not what Tobirama said. I disproved all of your points in various colors above on page 4, post 79 of this thread. I gave page numbers and quotes, but you never addressed it.
Thanks I addressed it.
And not only Oro's words but Tobirama's words as well. You can not prove what they said were wrong.

You aren't going off Tobirama's words. You haven't quoted him and he believes he was correct. And despite arrogance, he was right about Sasuke, so you can't hold that against him.

Here's a point that keeps Tobirama from being wrong for moving the Uchiha to the outskirts of the village. "(actual quote given before, but this part is close enough) "Rebellious elements following Madara's will, were hiding in the clan." So obviously the Uchiha can't police themselves, or there wouldn't continue to be rebellious elements and the Uchiha wouldn't have to be moved. You think the Hokage can't order the leader of the Uchiha to clean his mess up, and hand over the conspirators? Tobirama, obviously has some kind of contact/spy in the uchiha just as Hiruzen did to find out about the planned revolt.
^You are assuming here. Tobirama got this info with the ANBU.

No not anbu, Clan plans are kept within the clan. Only Clan members would get that info out. The only other possibility to support you, which would really be reaching, is a jutsu allowing a user to spy from a distance. An Anbu member would have to be a Uchiha. And the Uchiha aspect is the more important of the two. So my assumption is far safer than yours, because it is far and away the most reasonable explanation.

You just ignore this information, that's given in the manga.

The "rebellious elements" occured AFTER Tobirama moved them and watched over them. Tobirama caused the rebellious elements

No, Tobirama had to have a reason to move them in the first place. So unless you have a different reason, you can't Bold "AFTER" without offering an alternative reason, since an "on the nose" explanation isn't given.

And the point about Tobirama essentially saying "figures the Uchiha is with the enemy?" Well, he had his issues with Uchiha, he said that "they almost always turn bad once they unlock the eye/brain powers," and low and behold, he's RIGHT on Sasuke doing harm. Remember Karin? Remember SAsuke's own words about destruction and darkness?
Gaining new eye power does not make them evil.
Itachi, Shishi , and young Saskue are proof of this
Like anybody the Uchiha are provoked to be evil.
Tobirama watching over them provoked them

Sasuke is not proof. He's proof of evil. Shisui and Itachi you can have. That's why Tobirama said "almost always." My and Tobirama's point still hold true. And no they are not "provoked to be evil (like anybody). They get the eye power through loss of love, that (UNLIKE MOST PEOPLE) leads to hate. And again, Tobirama claims first hand knowledge. So since you keep backing Hashirama so much, explain why he didn't say Tobirama was wrong about saying they almost always turn evil? Maybe Hashirama wanted to help them overcome their issues, but Tobirama is not interested or obligated. And that is why hashirama says don't talk about them that way. And why Tobirama says he's right.



So because Tobirama is egotistical about his correct opinion on Sasuke, people think he's racist, yet he is right about who Sasuke is. Further, would a truly good person, work with Orochimaru to find answers that truly aren't important in the present?
he is not right about ALL Uchiha (look at peole I mentioned above)

Yes he is, that's why he didn't say all, he said almost all.

There's a reason Tobirama has so many A+ votes.
Really now?
So
-Creating ET
-No litening to his bro
-Not trusting the Uchiha
-Not creating peace with others
Makes him deserve and A+??????????

The rating is going to be slanted toward the new information given in this chapter. Characterization coming first, and decisions second. You should already know that you are very against ET use, and always bring it up when given the opportunity. And you also know most don't agree with how you think of it. Not listening to his bro is fine, because his bro is pretty much Naruto, and has no backbone and drawn and suigetsu noted. It's easy to say be nice to them, when he's powerful enough to not be at any risk of death. or general harm.

Blame the uchiha leaders for the lack of peace not tobirama and not Hiruzen. As Tobirama said, the village comes first, not the senju.

In the present, these would be decisions against terrorists. That is what the Uchiha were doing according to Tobirama's words. Harboring terrorists. And unlike races in real life, clans in Naruto are tight knit, so ignorance is no excuse.
yeah and look of how doing that in real life got us

So you are agreeing with me? Blame the leadership of terrorists? We blaming Madara, or the Uchiha leaders in the village?