Kages vs Hokages

[Sagepain]

^ That was also proven in the manga.......

It was literally stated. Madara has an immortal body and a limitless amount of chakra.

In this case Madara did indeed get better then he was before being brought back via Edo Tensei. So I don't get your point.

[Devils Lawyer]

Originally Posted by Godaime Kazekage

Alright DL, this is how you debate:

Faster reaction doesn't make you physically faster. Chapter 37: Lee beats down Sasuke even though Sasuke has his magic eyes and he says, "Even if you read my movement with your eyes, your body does not have the speed to react to my taijutsu".

Sasuke was not countering A blow for blow when he got serious (aka activated V2). Chapter 463: Sasuke is looking in the opposite direction from where A is attacking. He activates Susano'o covered in Amaterasu so A won't attack him. Karin says, "Raikage is impossibly fast! But this way Sasuke is protected even if he can't follow Raikage's movements!" A lost his arm, because he was angry and didn't want to be underestimated so he decided to attack Sasuke anyway, despite knowing his arm would be lost to Amaterasu.

First of all the sharigan Sasuke was using against was completely weak. Case and point it steadily getting stronger over the course of part 1. But you are correct Lee was massively faster at the time and yes if the opponent is faster than the sharigan the user can get blitzed. Which tells you how fast Harishima had to be.

Also yes Sasuke did A hit Sasuke one time from the blindside after he dodged amaterasu. Sasuke activated ameterasu as a shield a split second before A blow landed. That means his sharigan was just as fast. Otherwise A would have tagged him before it activated. A had one moment where he was faster not even by much.

Who's the one not paying attention to the story now?

Not you

Haha...wow, nice try. You're really grasping at straws now and are not going to be convincing anyone with this. Seriously, think about it. You're saying that someone shouting out an entire sentence which the opponent is able to hear is moving faster than someone who can move faster than the eye can track. All of the fastest blitzes in the Naruto manga have been done without words or interrupt a thought/speech process. So no "words as a free action", as it defies both physics and common sense . The only time I could even begin to agree with that is when characters are thinking about something. Bee is not nearly as fast as A either.

What you are saying is stupid. Have you never read or watched db. They move at intense speeds and hold full conversations. This is not real life. Superman has had conversations at the speed of light. You have just proved how new to this you really are.

Yeah, he cut down, what, like 7 fodder...such a great speed feat I guess you also forgot how Gaara casually caught his sword in that same chapter. I'm not saying Madara is slow, he's just not anywhere close to A or Naruto level speed.

Yet he wasn't tagged by not one fodder. Nor was even taking any of his fights seriously. Madara not to long ago casually countered Naruto's attacks against him. By lazily swinging his fan. So him not being fast as A and Naruto is far from the truth.

It's impressive in that it can't be avoided and is a surefire 100% death sentence. Unless you think Madara can survive being atomically dismantled.

I not saying Madara can't be defeated. I am just telling you his level. Which you are doubting.

Chapter 463, Page 8: Karin says, "Raikage's chakras are still growing. These are Tailed Beast levels."
Chapter 555, Page 9: Hachibi flashback in which 3rd Raikage takes on Gyuuki 1v1.

Chakra level is nothing only the power matters. Kisame had bijuu chakra levels. The raikage I will concede on that.

Madara caught Gyuuki with minimal difficulty using wood style. It's a lot easier to defeat an opponent when you have its "kryptonite".

That is not a beast krpytonite. Bee and Naruto both escaped so that is definetely not true. It is just that strong.

Pretty much all of what you mentioned was hype. What we've actually seen from Hashirama is largely unimpressive. As Sagepain said, he was taken down by Hiruzen with mid-tier feats. All we know about Hashirama is what Madara has told us while he's stroking his ego and trying to justify how he lost. It's like you lose a fight against an Orange belt Karate student, but then bring a gun to a fight against a blackbelt and say, "Yeah, that orange belt was way tougher than you. Because you know, he beat me."

Yeah that wasn't Harishima that was a much weaker edo. Oro's edo at the time was nowhere near as powerful as Kabuto's. Also the story has clearly changed from part 1. You have no clue what retcon means either do you. Did you know the shikkaku wasn't even a tailed beast at first just a evil spirit. The story has evolved and changed since then.

And EMS Madara as strong as Edo Madara...? Trololololol

He had a full powered Kurama under his control as a weapon. You do know Kuram was massively stronger right. So yeah fail.

Yeah, nothing except the fact that Onoki did avoid it. Chapter 575. You're still trying to argue that you can catch a flying opponent by growing a forest. smh

Yeah no when the attack was first launched he got hit. He just got back up and countered it. That is kudos on Onoki. Still doesn't change the fact he was hurt.

[konoha chimp]

I think we should just stop this thread until/if we actually see Hashirama in action in the manga because watching you guys is like seeing you debate with a brick wall, you aren't getting anywhere

[Sagepain]

Originally Posted by konoha chimp

I think we should just stop this thread until/if we actually see Hashirama in action in the manga because watching you guys is like seeing you debate with a brick wall, you aren't getting anywhere

^ Thats why I stopped posting.

If I continued to debate I have this feeling Hashirama will pull something out his ass that even Madara hasin't seen and things will go crazy.

No way Orochimaru is gonna let Sasuke go when he has 4 Former Hokage to use and capture him with

Anyways, At the moment Hashirama only has hype going for him, same with Tobirama and Hiruzen. That wouldin't have been the case if Madara didin't have Wood Style and started wanking him though.

[Devils Lawyer]

The thing about Harishima is though you can tell how strong he is.There is a flashback with him holding a full powered Kurama fighting Madara. Half of Kurama's power was sealed away. He was double what you see now. Half his energy now was capable of engulfing a mountain range. You are basing your arguements about Harishima from part 1. The story has changed massively after the sound war. Oro displayed powers that would have sidewalked stomped Hiruzen in part 2. Stories change frequently and new ideas are introduced.

[PrinceofPeace]

but those hype feats does not prove he will beat Muu and Co.
It's not like he has speed feats or something

And we do not even know if the duo had dust release when Madara fought them

[Godaime Kazekage]

Originally Posted by Devils Lawyer

First of all the sharigan Sasuke was using against was completely weak. Case and point it steadily getting stronger over the course of part 1. But you are correct Lee was massively faster at the time and yes if the opponent is faster than the sharigan the user can get blitzed. Which tells you how fast Harishima had to be.

Seeing as we never saw the fight and both Hashirama and Madara's fighting styles revolve around tanking attacks/ attacking at a distance, it says nothing about how fast Hashirama had to be. Bee is also much slower than A and he murked MS Sasuke in base.

Originally Posted by Devils Lawyer

Also yes Sasuke did A hit Sasuke one time from the blindside after he dodged amaterasu. Sasuke activated ameterasu as a shield a split second before A blow landed. That means his sharigan was just as fast. Otherwise A would have tagged him before it activated. A had one moment where he was faster not even by much.

And you're reaching again. How the heck does activating Amaterasu have anything to do with reacting to your opponent? Amaterasu activation is (essentially) instantaneous. It has nothing to do with Sasuke's reactions. A didn't go for a straight blitz, he was moving around before he attacked and Sasuke was looking the wrong way and couldn't tell where A would attack from-Karin's statement makes this crystal clear. Your sharingan wanking is just too much.

Originally Posted by Devils Lawyer

Not you

Apparently yes, me; since you just had to owe up to being wrong multiple times...man, you have some serious short term memory loss

Originally Posted by Devils Lawyer

What you are saying is stupid. Have you never read or watched db. They move at intense speeds and hold full conversations. This is not real life. Superman has had conversations at the speed of light. You have just proved how new to this you really are.

I haven't seen these FTL conversations in Superman, but I can bet you they involve some kind of telepathy. And last time I checked this manga was called Naruto and not Dragonball or Superman. If you can show me a panel when a Naruto character is talking during a blitz I will concede the point. I hope you realize how much you are trying to twist what happened on panel to fit your point.

My version (aka what happened): Naruto jumps at Madara preparing to attack while yelling at him. He doesn't have to drastically break any laws of physics or established rules made by the author to do this.

Your version: I don't even know how to put this mechanistically...Naruto blitzes with insane speed by jumping and falling towards Madara in an arc pattern while somehow communicating in full sentences with him over this same time frame. Defies physics and common sense for the sole purpose of supporting Devils Lawyer's argument in a fictional battle between Kage.

Which seems more logical? When presented with two possible mechanisms the simpler one is correct in most cases-Occam's Razor-maybe you've heard of it?

Originally Posted by Devils Lawyer

Yet he wasn't tagged by not one fodder. Nor was even taking any of his fights seriously. Madara not to long ago casually countered Naruto's attacks against him. By lazily swinging his fan. So him not being fast as A and Naruto is far from the truth.

So fighting against a few fodder for about 5 panels and not being tagged by them qualifies a character as being fast now?

Yeah, because blocking an attack from someone who is yelling at you and essentially falling right into you makes you fast.

Do you think Naruto and A move at full speed the entire time they are using their cloaks? I can give you over a hundred panels that say otherwise.

Originally Posted by Devils Lawyer

That is not a beast krpytonite. Bee and Naruto both escaped so that is definetely not true. It is just that strong.

There are so many panels that say otherwise. Did you fall asleep for half of the panels Yamato is in and recently Guy yelling, "That damn tree is sucking up the Kyuubi's chakra!" while the Wood Dragon got larger and the Kurama chakra cloak disappated?

Originally Posted by Devils Lawyer

Yeah that wasn't Harishima that was a much weaker edo. Oro's edo at the time was nowhere near as powerful as Kabuto's. Also the story has clearly changed from part 1. You have no clue what retcon means either do you. Did you know the shikkaku wasn't even a tailed beast at first just a evil spirit. The story has evolved and changed since then.

Absolutely no evidence for Oro's Edos being weaker than Kabuto's, just another case of you wanting to twist the story to support your argument. The only difference in Kabuto's is that he can give them more control of their actions and emotions.

And thank you for making another baseless assumption about my intelligence and familiarity with the story. Of course I know Kishi retconned Hashirama's strength, but it doesn't take away the fact that he was taken down with mid-tier feats by an Old Hiruzen. As I have repeatedly reminded you we debate primarily through feats in the BG's and until Hashirama can show this insane speed that you maintain I will continue to use what the author has actually shown us-which is Hiruzen going toe-to-toe with him in CQC. Just because Shukaku is now known to be a Bijuu and not some spirit from a pot doesn't mean that his feats against Naruto and Gamabunta are now invalidated.

Originally Posted by Devils Lawyer

He had a full powered Kurama under his control as a weapon. You do know Kuram was massively stronger right. So yeah fail.

If the battle happened anything like what was shown in the manga vs. Naruto the Kyuubi would be immobilized quickly with Wood Dragon (Bijuu kryptonite) and sealed by Mito. Seeing as Hashirama has nothing that can counter a TBB it pretty much had to happen that way. So yeah, fail.

Originally Posted by Devils Lawyer

Yeah no when the attack was first launched he got hit. He just got back up and countered it. That is kudos on Onoki. Still doesn't change the fact he was hurt.

You mean after Madara surprised the Kages while they were having their little pow wow and knocking them down into the forest? Cuz Onoki dodged him creating the forest he just got surprise attacked by Madara's Susano'o. Yeah, that wasn't the forest catching them at all. And good luck doing that to Muu who will be invisible.

[Shisko Shi]

Really? I am sure he would have. But Madara saw what was going to happen from his eyes and stoped them. In all it isn't speed but reflex that matters. They are not the same.

[Devils Lawyer]

Originally Posted by Godaime Kazekage

Seeing as we never saw the fight and both Hashirama and Madara's fighting styles revolve around tanking attacks/ attacking at a distance, it says nothing about how fast Hashirama had to be. Bee is also much slower than A and he murked MS Sasuke in base.

Doesn't matter Harishima just has to murk the entire battlefield which he can. Also Bee is not slower than A. He has kept up with A and even got the drop on Minato. If A is faster it is not by buddy. Even then Bee becomes faster in his bijuu forms. If Bee was slower he would have been demolished during that double clothesline.

And you're reaching again. How the heck does activating Amaterasu have anything to do with reacting to your opponent? Amaterasu activation is (essentially) instantaneous. It has nothing to do with Sasuke's reactions. A didn't go for a straight blitz, he was moving around before he attacked and Sasuke was looking the wrong way and couldn't tell where A would attack from-Karin's statement makes this crystal clear. Your sharingan wanking is just too much.

Sasuke has to activate it first. He activated as soon as he lost sight of A. Again if A was truly massively faster he would have tagged Sasuke before amaterasu was activated. As a matter of he even dodged it before the activation so you are definetely wrong. That meant in that instant Sasuke sharigan was faster.

Apparently yes, me; since you just had to owe up to being wrong multiple times...man, you have some serious short term memory loss

Actually the only time I conceded was on the 3 raikage so...

I haven't seen these FTL conversations in Superman, but I can bet you they involve some kind of telepathy. And last time I checked this manga was called Naruto and not Dragonball or Superman. If you can show me a panel when a Naruto character is talking during a blitz I will concede the point. I hope you realize how much you are trying to twist what happened on panel to fit your point.

How about stop making excuses conversation has almost nothing to do with the passage of time in combat. Every manga has such instances. Stopping being childish and admit you are wrong. Lol at superman using telepathy

My version (aka what happened): Naruto jumps at Madara preparing to attack while yelling at him. He doesn't have to drastically break any laws of physics or established rules made by the author to do this.

Yeah ok characters who have been known to break the sound barrier long before this point. Gets their speed retracted by a conversation. yeah just stop.

Your version: I don't even know how to put this mechanistically...Naruto blitzes with insane speed by jumping and falling towards Madara in an arc pattern while somehow communicating in full sentences with him over this same time frame. Defies physics and common sense for the sole purpose of supporting Devils Lawyer's argument in a fictional battle between Kage.

My version is it was a simple blitz. Deal with it. You are just trying to come up with absurd reasons to take away speed. Panels don't work like that. Like I said characters who are known to break the sound barrier are having conversations. That is your proof of physics. Yeah and you want to talk to me about physics. Yeah just stop.

Which seems more logical? When presented with two possible mechanisms the simpler one is correct in most cases-Occam's Razor-maybe you've heard of it?

No that is not the case. Especially when individuals can move faster than the speed of sounds and dodge explosions. No offense you sound like a dumb-ass using a conversation as proof of their speed. The simpler solution is the artist doesn't give a fluck about a conversation time frame. That is common sense.

So fighting against a few fodder for about 5 panels and not being tagged by them qualifies a character as being fast now?

No fighting the two fastest charactesr in the story qualifies as fast.

Yeah, because blocking an attack from someone who is yelling at you and essentially falling right into you makes you fast.

Yeah you keep spouting that dumbass bs.

Do you think Naruto and A move at full speed the entire time they are using their cloaks? I can give you over a hundred panels that say otherwise.

Never said they did they still move faster than the majority of the series. I can give a 100 panels that goes with that.

There are so many panels that say otherwise. Did you fall asleep for half of the panels Yamato is in and recently Guy yelling, "That damn tree is sucking up the Kyuubi's chakra!" while the Wood Dragon got larger and the Kurama chakra cloak disappated?

Did you notice the part it sucks chakra in general the wood not necessarily specified for a bijuu. Bijuu who was still ripping the wood to shreds. Kurama especially who has the power to rip apart object larger than mountains.

Absolutely no evidence for Oro's Edos being weaker than Kabuto's, just another case of you wanting to twist the story to support your argument. The only difference in Kabuto's is that he can give them more control of their actions and emotions.

Yeah what story have you been reading. The edos in general didn't have full control of their power nor was Oro as good Kabuto controlling them back then. Considering he just summoned them again I can bet the new edo will be way stronger. Considering you know there is a thing called plot progression.

And thank you for making another baseless assumption about my intelligence and familiarity with the story. Of course I know Kishi retconned Hashirama's strength, but it doesn't take away the fact that he was taken down with mid-tier feats by an Old Hiruzen. As I have repeatedly reminded you we debate primarily through feats in the BG's and until Hashirama can show this insane speed that you maintain I will continue to use what the author has actually shown us-which is Hiruzen going toe-to-toe with him in CQC. Just because Shukaku is now known to be a Bijuu and not some spirit from a pot doesn't mean that his feats against Naruto and Gamabunta are now invalidated.

Harishima has feats beyond Hiruzen. Madara is the mouthpiece you only have to listen. Every woodstyle he performs is Harishima's ability. The same thing goes for Yamato he clearly says his powers is a pale imitation of Harishima's. We know his jutsu and how strong the wood is considering it can bind a bijuu. He has alot of feats.

If the battle happened anything like what was shown in the manga vs. Naruto the Kyuubi would be immobilized quickly with Wood Dragon (Bijuu kryptonite) and sealed by Mito. Seeing as Hashirama has nothing that can counter a TBB it pretty much had to happen that way. So yeah, fail.

How about even without the TBB the kyuubi is physically stronger than anything shown in Naruto. ch 439 pg 13 this is a weak kyuubi. So who fails bro?

You mean after Madara surprised the Kages while they were having their little pow wow and knocking them down into the forest? Cuz Onoki dodged him creating the forest he just got surprise attacked by Madara's Susano'o. Yeah, that wasn't the forest catching them at all. And good luck doing that to Muu who will be invisible.

Yeah that is an excuse how. It is called a fight. He was suppose to give them a warning.

[PrinceofPeace]

Gk do you need backup or are you good?

[Kioroshi.]

doesn't muu solo?Particle Style is OP.

[BMC1994]

Oh lord ...the text walls.

[PrinceofPeace]

Originally Posted by Kioroshi.

doesn't muu solo?Particle Style is OP.

ny thoughts exactly

[Maruko]

[Kioroshi.]

Originally Posted by PrinceofPeace

ny thoughts exactly

Nice to see we agree on something lol.



I think this is a stomp,muu goes in the air and reyp the entire battlefield with particle style.

[konoha chimp]

So can anyone actually think of a way to beat Particle style? I mean the 2nd Mizukage managed to kill Muu with his 'godly OP' particle style. I mean yeah he died himself in the process but that's not the point

[Kioroshi.]

^ that might have been made for the story to be more cool but with feats i don't see mizukage beating muu anyhow Muu is pretty much OP

Invinsibility,flying,particle style.

Hes very op indeed.

[Shisko Shi]

Camo and Tobirama can sense him by placing his fingur on the ground. Fun fact of the day. =)

[Kioroshi.]

^ whos camo.

And what if hes in the air?

[Shisko Shi]

Muu is Camo not invisable. Also if the air is dusty, pollion full, or on sand or dirst or water you can see were he is walking.