Is Lucifer really evil?

[Shisko Shi]

No that is Jesus. Jesus was hisson with the pressence of God to do what he needed. It imo wasn't God in a flesh and blood body. He alsostates alot that he is not God but the son. He he sayswe are one, then he isstating that he is his son and blood. They are together but not the same. He even saud you will see him on the RIGHT hand side of his FATHER. =)

Lucifer can change, he has free will.

[Akatsuki_Fighter]

Originally Posted by AgentShayd

wait you assuming that there is such a being as Lucifer aka Satan and a God etc... etc... etc.. What is sin? A word that man kind made up to give excuses for themselves for bad behavior? That is my opinion... A fear of evil and even a fear of almighty being does a lot to people's minds.. because in reality humanity is weak and for some reason we would rather believe in the unknown than the actual known. With that said to each their own.. There is no Lucifer in my opinion there for he/it can not be evil. Evil is also a perception.. what is evil to one person is not always that to another. Personally in my opinion the only true evil is people, not unseen demonic creatures and their dark prince leader... People just use that as an excuse to not take responsibility for their own actions. It is the same for the whole god thing. People will claim they are doing things in the name of their god/religion etc... but that never means it is always right and again an excuse to act upon something without taking the full blame.

But that's the thing. God isn't unknown. At first I thought there wasn't any god either, or at least not one that actually cared enough to show himself, but he does show himself to us, especially when asked. And he showed himself to me. Yeah, I had to go on faith to even open my mind to the possibility of his existence, but I didn't believe in him just because that's what I wanted to believe. The last thing I wanted to happen was for some religious hypocrites to suck me into a false hope, so I prayed and kept an open mind and I read the Bible and observed how its teachings played out in the real world, both in my life and in others'. And 5 years later, I still feel ask questions and I still believe.

You asked "what is evil" and you're pretty much saying evil is relative, right? You're half right. Itachi's words before fighting Sasuke comes to mind (and yes, I'm proud of finding a way to reference Naruto in this): he says something along the lines of "people live in their own realities; what is truth to them may not be truth to another." That's true in the sense of false truths (anything can seem like truth if that's what you wanna believe), but God shows the absolute truth with sin and the story of redemption. Again, it's not enough to say "you should believe this," but if God's really real and who he says he is then we can trust his say on evil, and he does and will show himself.

On that note, "what is the unknown vs known"? In the case of God being real, the unknown is actually known, but most of what we know in general is actually unknown. For example, we've accepted things like the Laws of Motion as truth because it's been tested and confirmed more times than we can count and there's no better explanation, but there are alotta things that we accept so quickly that aren't really so solid. Scientists argue about alotta things, so what things that we "know" are really known? I read in my college bio book for this semester that it's been proven that vitamin c really doesn't do much to prevent or shorten colds, yet most people still consider it fact (and I was one of them). Not ground-breaking stuff, but still.

Same thing goes for evolution. I'm not assuming you believe this, but it's a good example. (1) Breaks the biological law that living things can come from non-living things. (2) We can't create our own species by breeding (which should be possible if evolution's right). (3) No observed evolution and no evidence in fossil record of inbetween species (which would be required because of millions of years of evolution and because nothing can change that quickly). My point is, even though most people believe something is true or isn't true, doesn't mean they're right either.

And I like you're thing on taking responsibility. Your right that some people wanna believe that so they can remove the blame, but Satan and demons are still real and still very much evil. I am an evil man, I've done things I'm not proud of, and I do believe Satan and his demons tempt me and abuse me just like the rest of the world, but I also take responsibility. Instead of hiding behind false innocence, people should say "I screwed up and I need to fix it." But they should also say "I can't do it alone. Please forgive me." It's easy for anyone to see that change can't be done by ourselves, we'll just screw it up even more. And on the opposite side of the coin, people also use their religion to push their own sense of justice. Sad but true. I cringe every time I see those stupid fire-and brimstone "evangelists" or hear about those Crusades... Please just know that that isn't the true face of our God.

[Akatsuki_Fighter]

Originally Posted by Shisko Shi

No that is Jesus. Jesus was hisson with the pressence of God to do what he needed. It imo wasn't God in a flesh and blood body. He alsostates alot that he is not God but the son. He he sayswe are one, then he isstating that he is his son and blood. They are together but not the same. He even saud you will see him on the RIGHT hand side of his FATHER. =)

Lucifer can change, he has free will.

They are both the one and only God. They're separated, but one in the same, and they've done so to effectively bring the plan of salvation. Jesus is God's Son, yes, but he is also God, and Jesus actually says quite often that he actually is God, just like the Holy Spirit. Read the first chapter in the book of John: it says something like "in the beginning the Word was with God and the Word was God" (the Word means Jesus, because he was the living word of God.) Yes, Jesus will be at God's right hand and he was guided by the Father while on Earth, but like I said it was because each of them had a task to complete the plan of salvation, so Jesus willingly submitted to the Father's guidance instead of arguing that he should be running the shots, because, again, Jesus is God and therefore has just as much importance and power as the Father or the Holy Spirit.

And I'm sorry you still think that about Lucifer. He did have free will, and he chose evil. And I dunno if he could have changed or not and be forgiven, but for thousands of years he has still chosen to kill, steal, and destroy, and will continue to do so all the way to judgement day (according to John's testimony in Revelation. This is the God of the Bible we're talkin' about here: perfect, loving, truthful. I think we can trust his explanation of Satan. One last time, I ask that you talk to God about this, or continue if you already have.

[Shisko Shi]

The point is he can change, but it may not happen. But God also killed people even the Half Human Half Demons because he thought them with disgust.

Also you are not Catholic are you?

[Akatsuki_Fighter]

Originally Posted by Shisko Shi

The point is he can change, but it may not happen. But God also killed people even the Half Human Half Demons because he thought them with disgust.

Also you are not Catholic are you?

Really? Can you point me to where it says he killed half human/demons outta disgust? I've only read about human/angel offspring near the beginning of Genesis. It says they were giants and heroes, but never said anything about God killing them in that passage at least. And can Satan change? I dunno, but it won't really matter in the end, since God has already told us what fate Satan will choose for himself. And no I'm not Catholic, but why would that matter? I'm non-denominational, cause I think we should focus on researching and applying God's Word and becoming a family more than "who's right," ya know? I believe and accept God's Word as completely truthful and without error (though I never accept anything in the Bible blindly; if sumthin' doesn't sit right with me, I look into it.)

Btw, hope I don't sound angry or anything. Looking over what I wrote, it looks like it could be interpreted that way, sorry :/

[Muffintop]

Originally Posted by Akatsuki_Fighter

They are both the one and only God. They're separated, but one in the same, and they've done so to effectively bring the plan of salvation. Jesus is God's Son, yes, but he is also God, and Jesus actually says quite often that he actually is God, just like the Holy Spirit. Read the first chapter in the book of John: it says something like "in the beginning the Word was with God and the Word was God" (the Word means Jesus, because he was the living word of God.) Yes, Jesus will be at God's right hand and he was guided by the Father while on Earth, but like I said it was because each of them had a task to complete the plan of salvation, so Jesus willingly submitted to the Father's guidance instead of arguing that he should be running the shots, because, again, Jesus is God and therefore has just as much importance and power as the Father or the Holy Spirit.

And I'm sorry you still think that about Lucifer. He did have free will, and he chose evil. And I dunno if he could have changed or not and be forgiven, but for thousands of years he has still chosen to kill, steal, and destroy, and will continue to do so all the way to judgement day (according to John's testimony in Revelation. This is the God of the Bible we're talkin' about here: perfect, loving, truthful. I think we can trust his explanation of Satan. One last time, I ask that you talk to God about this, or continue if you already have.

Who has Lucifer ever killed? I would prefer an answer that outright says who he killed, rather than simply placing the blame on him.

[Akatsuki_Fighter]

Originally Posted by Muffintop

Who has Lucifer ever killed? I would prefer an answer that outright says who he killed, rather than simply placing the blame on him.

Well, anyone that's chosen sin, really. There are some instances where it is specified, like killing Job's family in the book of Job. I know it may seem kinda lame, but it's mostly a trust kinda thing. I already said I used to question God's existence, but I also questioned God's supposed character (aka "Is God just shifting the blame to someone who doesn't deserve it? Does he really always tell the truth?") Over the years I've come to trust that God is real and he isn't a liar (like oh so many books and movies do: you know, not necessarily an evil god, but at the very least a benevolent protagonist who in reality is the ultimate enemy) and that his testimony of Satan and the human condition is true. And while I believe Satan pulls many strings, I still think it's wrong to not fess up to our own shortcomings. Maybe I was born this way, and maybe there's some evil dude poking at my weaknesses, but I'm still responsible to fight against, ask for forgiveness, and make it right. With God's help of course! After all, if there's really a guy trying to make it easier for me to fail, it's not so bad to accept help from a guy who's trying to help me be a better man I can tell ya the rest through PMing, since you've already done so.

[narutosoul16]

Originally Posted by Shisko Shi

Well that is like me saying you are bad, becaus eyou sin everyday even after Jeseu died for you. You still sin even after doing it and saying you wont do it again. He isn't perfect.


@Noctic yea that makes sence.

you're right. he just never asked for forgiveness

[Shisko Shi]

Yes Look in the OT They are called Nephilim's. They were 36 foot men. Fallen agnels had sex with women. it basicly states this.... "The Sons of God made with the Daughters of Men..." They are one of the things he killed. Why? Well they are children of the Angels casted out. I understand Lucifer may have did bad... but what? Rebelled? Do you know the reason why? Why he wanted to be God? No... he might have had a better solution then Gods. By the way everyone... The Nephilims are real they even found the bones. Crazy huh?

[Shisko Shi]

Originally Posted by narutosoul16

you're right. he just never asked for forgiveness

What is the diffrence? I grante you everyone will ask but will sin that same thing someday.


God I am sorry I lied please forgive me of my sins... 2 weeks later or 40 years later... so you basicly lie right to God.

[Akatsuki_Fighter]

Originally Posted by Shisko Shi

What is the diffrence? I grante you everyone will ask but will sin that same thing someday.


God I am sorry I lied please forgive me of my sins... 2 weeks later or 40 years later... so you basicly lie right to God.

No, it's not lying. He doesn't forgive only once. There was a time when Peter asked Jesus "How many times should I forgive someone who sins against me? Seven times?" And Jesus said "No, not seven times, but 7 times 70!" The point of that was to say to forgive someone every time, because who's really gonna keep track of every individual person who's sinned against them until it reaches 490 times? Same thing with God: he forgives us every time, including repeated sins. That's why it called weakness, man, because it's something that can't easily be overcome and is often repeated. If every person could avoid every sin the very first time they committed it, it could hardly be called weakness.
There is also false repentance, where people take advantage of God's grace to keep committing sin without putting forth the strength and effort to overcome it, but even that will be forgiven when the heart truly repents. I should know. I've done it before, and I'm not proud of it, but God forgave me.

And can you refer me to that place in the Old Testament where it says God killed these people? I've never read that part before (not a surprise, since I haven't read much of it yet).

[Shisko Shi]

Yea the great flood. That is how they died. O you can always google it.

Really? Sorry may be accepted, but is pointles if you conintinue to do it. Of cause god forgives us anyways because we are idoitic creatures. Sin wasn't caused by Lucifer, but Our selve. Proof? Look at all the Saints. They choose to he sinless. Not all there lives of cause but when thy made the disision. It is choice. All we do is populate and eat and poop. To the point we are becoming over populated. If you lied today or sined to day. Are yo going to do it again? Here is one we ALL do... Judge, Vanitity. Most Glutteny, Greed. YOu do it alot in your life wehter you see it or not. The point is this. Lucifer isn't as bad as people make him. And I do believe he can change. If notm then nither can you. We all have free will. Not just humans but angels.

[Akatsuki_Fighter]

Originally Posted by Shisko Shi

Yea the great flood. That is how they died. O you can always google it.

Really? Sorry may be accepted, but is pointles if you conintinue to do it. Of cause god forgives us anyways because we are idoitic creatures. Sin wasn't caused by Lucifer, but Our selve. Proof? Look at all the Saints. They choose to he sinless. Not all there lives of cause but when thy made the disision. It is choice. All we do is populate and eat and poop. To the point we are becoming over populated. If you lied today or sined to day. Are yo going to do it again? Here is one we ALL do... Judge, Vanitity. Most Glutteny, Greed. YOu do it alot in your life wehter you see it or not. The point is this. Lucifer isn't as bad as people make him. And I do believe he can change. If notm then nither can you. We all have free will. Not just humans but angels.

It's not pointless. That's what Jesus' death was all about, because we continue to sin. He gives us ultimate love and as long as we do our best to become more Christ-like we are righteous. We are holy in God's sight. Even now in my sin, whether i realize what I've done or not, I am a righteous man because I am doing my best to love my God. And it's our fault for sinning, yes, but Satan still does manipulate us as well. And are you suggesting that the Saints became capable of living without sinning? No, they too constantly sinned, but they were loved by God anyway. Consider Romans 7:14-25 for how human and sinful Paul (and I can guarantee, every other human including the other Saints) actually were.

We are all saints, those who truly love and serve Jesus Christ, not because of how "sinless" we are, but because of how Christ-like we strive to be. And while I will recognize the Saints for the spectacular things they did for God's kingdom, but they are no different from any of us, no more favored by God, and no less human. We are all loved equally and our lives and our accomplishments for God are all just as important as each other. As for the importance of each person's role, whether they be branded "big" or "small," "important" or "unimportant" (and I know that this paragraph isn't addressing anything you said, but still): 1 Corinthians 12:14-22.

And finally, it's not a reputation put on Satan by humans. It is the testimony of God through his Word. If you won't trust what people say about Lucifer, then at least trust in God.

[Shisko Shi]

When I say pointless....I mean we take it forgranted.. He shouldn't have to die. We just nee to grow up and act better.

Debatable.... A saint back then would have there body parts kept in relect and still are by the Pope for control to use. Why? Be cause they were SO GOod that if you went to one it would rub off of you and take time in pergatoy away. Yes they sinned, but at a time they changed and became as sinless as you can get. Most. Of cause they sinned in life everyone does. But Minipulate? When? No one can minipulate me into robbing a bank. It is choice. To call Lucifer... BTW is his real name, not satan. He tempted others not minipulated. But guess what, God also killed too. He is soly responsicble for the Ruins of Anceint Jeruselam.

You can ot honostly thing Lucufer can not change... That would be imo dumb. I mean he has free will. WHo created sin? God, he created it all even us. SO if he knew what Lucifer was going to do why creat him? Maybe to prove that even the worst can change, no one knows.

[Akatsuki_Fighter]

Originally Posted by Shisko Shi

When I say pointless....I mean we take it forgranted.. He shouldn't have to die. We just nee to grow up and act better.

Debatable.... A saint back then would have there body parts kept in relect and still are by the Pope for control to use. Why? Be cause they were SO GOod that if you went to one it would rub off of you and take time in pergatoy away. Yes they sinned, but at a time they changed and became as sinless as you can get. Most. Of cause they sinned in life everyone does. But Minipulate? When? No one can minipulate me into robbing a bank. It is choice. To call Lucifer... BTW is his real name, not satan. He tempted others not minipulated. But guess what, God also killed too. He is soly responsicble for the Ruins of Anceint Jeruselam.

You can ot honostly thing Lucufer can not change... That would be imo dumb. I mean he has free will. WHo created sin? God, he created it all even us. SO if he knew what Lucifer was going to do why creat him? Maybe to prove that even the worst can change, no one knows.

Oh, sorry for misinterpreting. And yeah, when it comes down to it, it's our choice, but Satan does entice us. It's his game, man; he's good at it and tries to do it without us noticing. But manipulating in this case doesn't mean "out of our hands" or "without free will". The tempting is his, the final decision is ours, but he's still doin it. Tempting is manipulating in this context, but if you really want me to say it, there is demonic possession, which is complete control without free will. (And yeah, his name is Lucifer, but he's also called Satan and the devil. They're all his name at this point.)

And yeah God killed people, but the difference is the purpose: Lucifer kills cause he wants to and he hates us (again, that's what God says, not humans), and God has done it to keep sin from spreading too much (for people that he knows will not change within their lifetime, and he doesn't like doing it either.) The whole ordeal with Jerusalem came from that same purpose: they were turning away from God and wouldn't listen to him. They wanted more sin, so he gave them what they wanted and allowed them to destroy themselves and also weakened them to attack from other nations as a warning that they needed to trust in him again. Pretty? No, I won't pretend that it is.

And like I said before, the question "can Lucifer change?" is pointless, because God has already assured us that he will not. And even if Lucifer didn't have a chance to repent, God's still fair: Lucifer was God's most beautiful angel with an important position and understood God's love more than any human being, maybe even any other angel, yet he decided to choose sin in a lust for power. I'd have to think that if you'd try to usurp a guy who loves you fully and unconditionally, and does his job pefectly, especially with how well you understand him, it wouldn't be outta the question to say that Lucifer had his chance. Would I say give him a chance? Yes. Does it matter? No. Because once again, God has assured us that Lucifer will not change his ways.

[FireShadow]

stop debating. lucifer is evil haha

[Shisko Shi]

So are you, you judged liek I just did you you. That is a sin. Lucifer sins, we all do.

[Shisko Shi]

Originally Posted by Akatsuki_Fighter

Oh, sorry for misinterpreting. And yeah, when it comes down to it, it's our choice, but Satan does entice us. It's his game, man; he's good at it and tries to do it without us noticing. But manipulating in this case doesn't mean "out of our hands" or "without free will". The tempting is his, the final decision is ours, but he's still doin it. Tempting is manipulating in this context, but if you really want me to say it, there is demonic possession, which is complete control without free will. (And yeah, his name is Lucifer, but he's also called Satan and the devil. They're all his name at this point.)

And yeah God killed people, but the difference is the purpose: Lucifer kills cause he wants to and he hates us (again, that's what God says, not humans), and God has done it to keep sin from spreading too much (for people that he knows will not change within their lifetime, and he doesn't like doing it either.) The whole ordeal with Jerusalem came from that same purpose: they were turning away from God and wouldn't listen to him. They wanted more sin, so he gave them what they wanted and allowed them to destroy themselves and also weakened them to attack from other nations as a warning that they needed to trust in him again. Pretty? No, I won't pretend that it is.

And like I said before, the question "can Lucifer change?" is pointless, because God has already assured us that he will not. And even if Lucifer didn't have a chance to repent, God's still fair: Lucifer was God's most beautiful angel with an important position and understood God's love more than any human being, maybe even any other angel, yet he decided to choose sin in a lust for power. I'd have to think that if you'd try to usurp a guy who loves you fully and unconditionally, and does his job pefectly, especially with how well you understand him, it wouldn't be outta the question to say that Lucifer had his chance. Would I say give him a chance? Yes. Does it matter? No. Because once again, God has assured us that Lucifer will not change his ways.

Oh about the think in the ordeal there is this video you should watch. BAsicly all these Hebingers show us repeting history like them. Any way lol off topic...
How has God assured him that? YOu are going my people. The bible is written by humans. We can not be sure what is real and not. Because things were taken out and proven that too. YOu realise during the renissance and the middle ages. (Both diffrent times) The CHurch (Cathlic side) or the Pope changed things to make it so that no one would understand and the church could rule. For all we know they could have done the same when the bible was reporduced by a german man that made the printing press. The only true way is to read the scrolls but they are in Latin a dead language no one can translate anymore. It was used during that time then old english whish you can not read then modern english. So to trust the modern bibles is not a smart idea.

So say Lucifer can not change is also wrong because he has the free will. He could win ever. We also do not know what happened that he hated God. For all we know he forsaw something and told God don't make humans. He can tempt us but we making the choice are the ones doing the sinning.

[sagemaster777]

Originally Posted by AgentShayd

wait you assuming that there is such a being as Lucifer aka Satan and a God etc... etc... etc.. What is sin? A word that man kind made up to give excuses for themselves for bad behavior? That is my opinion... A fear of evil and even a fear of almighty being does a lot to people's minds.. because in reality humanity is weak and for some reason we would rather believe in the unknown than the actual known. With that said to each their own.. There is no Lucifer in my opinion there for he/it can not be evil. Evil is also a perception.. what is evil to one person is not always that to another. Personally in my opinion the only true evil is people, not unseen demonic creatures and their dark prince leader... People just use that as an excuse to not take responsibility for their own actions. It is the same for the whole god thing. People will claim they are doing things in the name of their god/religion etc... but that never means it is always right and again an excuse to act upon something without taking the full blame.

Sin-
An immoral act considered to be a transgression against divine law. Doing wrong would be the sin itself, so it can't be an excuse for itself. It's specifically that act of evil in the bible. If someones actually claiming sin is the reason they sin, they need to learn what that word means. The bible also claims that man IS evil and sinful and that it is mans fault in the first place. Once again if someone actually thinks it's the devils fault for their immoral act they should pick up a bible and understand it.

[Shisko Shi]

I am sorry sage I couldn't read do to your sig...

In all truth I agree with you though.