MLK: The Greatest American of All Time?

[JLI2infinity]

I remember my senior year of high school my American Government teacher was lecturing us on something (I don't remember what exactly) and he made this statement. And when I brought it up to my friends again they thought it was interesting as well and couldn't find a reason to deny it.

So I bring it to the forum. Is Martin Luther King Jr. the greatest American of all time? Is it fair to even ask this question (alright I'm being a little facetious here since I already brought it up) ? What about scholastic achievements such as revolutionizing various fields of science or curing diseases? Is it fair to say that someone else could've led the Civil Rights Movement but it's not as likely that someone could've come up with theory X or medicine Y or invention Z? How many licks does it take to get to the center of a Tootsie Pop?

Questions people. I have questions that need answers.

Anyways feel free to discuss as usual. Happy MLK Day to all.

[Azal]

If he didn't do what he did, someone else would have. Simple as that.

[Shisko Shi]

He was a great and brave man, but not the greatist. Ithink Washington because he risked his life and family to creat a country with out being like how it was and against the most powerful country around. now I mean we all live to gether, but racism will ALWAYS be around no matter what happenes.

[Red]

Without a doubt, Martin Luther King Jr. was an extraordinary man. Despite the fact that someone else may have achieved the same accomplishments he had achieved at a later point in time, they didn't have the opportunity to because MLK made the incredibly brave decision to cross social barriers and defend the rights of the African-Americans not only in his community, but across the country, both for then and for now. On the other hand, saying someone is "the greatest American of all time" really is kind of facetious because some acts of extraordinaire and valor cannot be compared. For example, George Washington made extremely difficult and brave decisions in times of war. As did many other American generals over the course of our country's history. Then again, we have incredible innovative minds such as Thomas Edison and Benjamin Franklin. We have our scientists, like Albert Einstein and Robert Oppenheimer. We even have our incredible businessmen, like J.P. Morgan and John D. Rockefeller. To try to compare the achievements of these Americans in order to choose the "greatest" one, would be trivial. They each had their own impact on American society and life. I mean, someone could say that Victoria Leigh Soto, the Sandy Hook Elementary School teacher who tried to hide her students in the cupboards and placed herself between the shooter and her students, was the greatest American to have ever lived. In my opinion, trying to compare these acts is not only unnecessary, but even kind of rude.

All in all, I just believe that trying to call someone the "greatest American of all time" is just, simply put, dumb. There are SO many amazing people that have hailed from this country, even in it's short lifetime, that to try to call one's accomplishments "greater" than another's is just ignorant.

[NINE-TAILS-BIJU]

this should help a bit... you guys watch this, it's about the topic which is MLK

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature...&v=dSvEMsdcYxA

[Shisko Shi]

^ saw it not really impressed enough to say he is the best. I mean first ask your self what makes someone the greatest American? What Saving Star Trek? Not in my book. A song he wrote? Not really, i believe you must acomplish some pretty big feats. He didalot and I love him but that is it.

But thanks for the video NTB

[PrinceofPeace]

Originally Posted by Azal

If he didn't do what he did, someone else would have. Simple as that.

No not as simple as that!
Not everyone/anyone could do what he did as well as he did. He rose up first and who knows what would have happened if he did not do it. And someone may not have been as effective.

[JLI2infinity]

Originally Posted by Shisko Shi

He was a great and brave man, but not the greatist. Ithink Washington because he risked his life and family to creat a country with out being like how it was and against the most powerful country around. now I mean we all live to gether, but racism will ALWAYS be around no matter what happenes.

MLK risked his life as well obviously and his family did face multiple assassination attempts.

Originally Posted by Red

Without a doubt, Martin Luther King Jr. was an extraordinary man. Despite the fact that someone else may have achieved the same accomplishments he had achieved at a later point in time, they didn't have the opportunity to because MLK made the incredibly brave decision to cross social barriers and defend the rights of the African-Americans not only in his community, but across the country, both for then and for now. On the other hand, saying someone is "the greatest American of all time" really is kind of facetious because some acts of extraordinaire and valor cannot be compared. For example, George Washington made extremely difficult and brave decisions in times of war. As did many other American generals over the course of our country's history. Then again, we have incredible innovative minds such as Thomas Edison and Benjamin Franklin. We have our scientists, like Albert Einstein and Robert Oppenheimer. We even have our incredible businessmen, like J.P. Morgan and John D. Rockefeller. To try to compare the achievements of these Americans in order to choose the "greatest" one, would be trivial. They each had their own impact on American society and life. I mean, someone could say that Victoria Leigh Soto, the Sandy Hook Elementary School teacher who tried to hide her students in the cupboards and placed herself between the shooter and her students, was the greatest American to have ever lived. In my opinion, trying to compare these acts is not only unnecessary, but even kind of rude.

All in all, I just believe that trying to call someone the "greatest American of all time" is just, simply put, dumb. There are SO many amazing people that have hailed from this country, even in it's short lifetime, that to try to call one's accomplishments "greater" than another's is just ignorant.

Beautiful points here thank you for the input, I repped you for that. I guess in the OP I should've mentioned this but I meant great in terms of influence, effectiveness in bringing overall changes, qualities like idealism, innovativeness, etc. I do understand your points but that wasn't the point of this thread. It was supposed to be a somewhat light-hearted "my dad can beat up your dad" type thing where we reflected on some of the amazing feats of our past leaders.

Also I don't think that Morgan or Rockefeller belong on your list lol. I'm sorry but when I compare them to the other names you listed I don't really think they measure up. Also, I'm pretty sure while Einstein worked in America he is German-born (still American I believe but just pointing this out). And I think Edison's non-scientific achievements trump his scientific ones.

@PrinceofPeace Yeah pretty much what I was gonna tell him.

[Shisko Shi]

I could care less how many assassins attacked him, that does't make him anymore of an American then we. If I was in that time I wouldstand up to. I do it for the Gays I do it for the blacks. but liek red said to even say someone is better is just dumb. and no duh he had people try and kill him. how can you not when you are black in that time? IIt wasn't just him but all blacks, the KKK atatcked all of them. A boy named timmy whistled to a girl he like and he was killed by being beatin so bad he wasn't reconizable.

and if it is obviouse then why are you telling us? That would mean iti scommon knowledge.

[JLI2infinity]

Originally Posted by Shisko Shi

I could care less how many assassins attacked him, that does't make him anymore of an American then we. If I was in that time I wouldstand up to. I do it for the Gays I do it for the blacks. but liek red said to even say someone is better is just dumb. and no duh he had people try and kill him. how can you not when you are black in that time? IIt wasn't just him but all blacks, the KKK atatcked all of them. A boy named timmy whistled to a girl he like and he was killed by being beatin so bad he wasn't reconizable.

and if it is obviouse then why are you telling us? That would mean iti scommon knowledge.

First off when did I say he was "more American" than anyone else. Second, that was more to ask you to expand on your point as to why you think George Washington was because from your brief explanation it seemed like you were saying it had to do with putting his life and the life of his family at risk when I was pointing out MLK did the same.

You saying you'd "stand up" in that time is speculation based on an era where that is the predominant opinion thanks to MLK and the great men and women before us. I don't know what you'd do if you were born and alive back then I'd say that a large part of it would have to do with your upbringing and the social climate of the town you lived in. I don't blame people for having prejudiced mindsets because no one can control what they were spoon fed growing up. The only time I find fault with them is when they are receiving new information and refuse to accept it out of tradition and bias.

And finally I addressed your point about the inappropriateness of this thread in my last post...

but I meant great in terms of influence, effectiveness in bringing overall changes, qualities like idealism, innovativeness, etc. I do understand your points but that wasn't the point of this thread. It was supposed to be a somewhat light-hearted "my dad can beat up your dad" type thing where we reflected on some of the amazing feats of our past leaders.

[Azal]

Originally Posted by PrinceofPeace

No not as simple as that!
Not everyone/anyone could do what he did as well as he did. He rose up first and who knows what would have happened if he did not do it. And someone may not have been as effective.

No, it is simple. Say someone else tried to do it, and it didn't get through, someone else would try after that. It may take longer, but someone else would have done it.

[JLI2infinity]

Originally Posted by Azal

No, it is simple. Say someone else tried to do it, and it didn't get through, someone else would try after that. It may take longer, but someone else would have done it.

So your solution is to wait and hope that it happens with more success next time I mean I agree that it probably would have happened but couldn't you say that about almost any leader? Someone probably would've figured out how to cure polio. Someone probably would've figured out how to overthrow the British. We know someone would've landed on the moon.

You make it sound like orchestrating an enormous group for social activism is something that happens easily. How long would it have taken if MLK failed? How much more blood, sweat, and tears would've had to been shed? Can you honestly say America would be in the same position it is today in terms of democracy, morality, freedom, or justice?

[Azal]

Originally Posted by JLI2infinity

So your solution is to wait and hope that it happens with more success next time I mean I agree that it probably would have happened but couldn't you say that about almost any leader? Someone probably would've figured out how to cure polio. Someone probably would've figured out how to overthrow the British. We know someone would've landed on the moon.

You make it sound like orchestrating an enormous group for social activism is something that happens easily. How long would it have taken if MLK failed? How much more blood, sweat, and tears would've had to been shed? Can you honestly say America would be in the same position it is today in terms of democracy, morality, freedom, or justice?

First Paragraph: Exactly my point.

Second Paragraph: Yes, I do make it sound easy, though I honestly don't mean it to. In fact, I don't think it would be easy at all. As for that last question, I was thinking of putting a detail about America being different in my post, but decided not to. No, I do not think America would really be the same.

[JLI2infinity]

Originally Posted by Azal

First Paragraph: Exactly my point.

Second Paragraph: Yes, I do make it sound easy, though I honestly don't mean it to. In fact, I don't think it would be easy at all. As for that last question, I was thinking of putting a detail about America being different in my post, but decided not to. No, I do not think America would really be the same.

Oh well looks we're on the same page. What were we talking about again lol.

[Shisko Shi]

NO I ment GW becaue he helped turn this country into it's own from the Kinf.
As the the killiung, basicly all blacks did, because the KKK would kill them regardless.

As for you saying that you don't think I'd change if I was back then in that era? That is were you are wrong, because it is similar to the Gay rights, that is alos a civil rights thing with them getting married. I'd stand up because blacks are clearly Human, so wether I was born from a KKK father or not I would relaise that. I grew up in a house were they Hate gays and are against Marrige for them but I choose my own path based on what I believed to be right.

[Red]

Originally Posted by JLI2infinity

MLK risked his life as well obviously and his family did face multiple assassination attempts.



Beautiful points here thank you for the input, I repped you for that. I guess in the OP I should've mentioned this but I meant great in terms of influence, effectiveness in bringing overall changes, qualities like idealism, innovativeness, etc. I do understand your points but that wasn't the point of this thread. It was supposed to be a somewhat light-hearted "my dad can beat up your dad" type thing where we reflected on some of the amazing feats of our past leaders.

Also I don't think that Morgan or Rockefeller belong on your list lol. I'm sorry but when I compare them to the other names you listed I don't really think they measure up. Also, I'm pretty sure while Einstein worked in America he is German-born (still American I believe but just pointing this out). And I think Edison's non-scientific achievements trump his scientific ones.

@PrinceofPeace Yeah pretty much what I was gonna tell him.

You don't think Morgan or Rockefeller belong on this list? Without them, our country would be broke, nonexistent, or like 40 years behind where we are now.

[Shikamaru Nara]

Originally Posted by Red

You don't think Morgan or Rockefeller belong on this list? Without them, our country would be broke, nonexistent, or like 40 years behind where we are now.

...taking into account the cons of their rule.
Child labor, treatment of people so horrible people had to form labor unions (not that they're bad), lying, cheating, monopolies, etc.

It's not all good.
What bad did MLK do?

I'm neutral on the notion of him being the greatest American of all time, but I certainly don't think robber barons like J.P. Morgan or Rockefeller should be put on that list, regardless of their charity contributions.

[JLI2infinity]

Originally Posted by Shisko Shi

NO I ment GW becaue he helped turn this country into it's own from the Kinf.
As the the killiung, basicly all blacks did, because the KKK would kill them regardless.

As for you saying that you don't think I'd change if I was back then in that era? That is were you are wrong, because it is similar to the Gay rights, that is alos a civil rights thing with them getting married. I'd stand up because blacks are clearly Human, so wether I was born from a KKK father or not I would relaise that. I grew up in a house were they Hate gays and are against Marrige for them but I choose my own path based on what I believed to be right.

Ok the KKK was in fact a terrorist organization that committed numerous hate crimes but you are overexaggerating their murderous streak. Yes they did view African Americans with disdain and I'm sure they would commit violent acts whenever they felt like it. But they were not actively seeking out each and every African American to kill them. They would psychologically terrorize minorities but they weren't killing anything that wasn't white at the drop of a hat. Even if they did operate outside of the law they were at least somewhat contained by the government. And btw I'm not even sure it was members of the KKK that attempted his assassinations.

Regardless, that is not the same as premeditated attempts on a man's life Those involve conspirators and resources. MLK's situation was not the same as every other African American in the USA.

And I'm not saying you wouldn't stand up for the Civil Rights Movement, I'm just saying that you can't say with certainty that you would. You're comparing standing up for gay rights with the Civil Rights Movement and it's not the same. First of all, the CRM already happened and is actually a platform you see referred to often by proponents of gay rights. Second of all, we live in a time where the freedom to express extremely controversial views isn't so outlandish. Satiric memes, comics, and cartoons can be found anywhere. Homosexual characters are in the media openly making jokes about their orientation. So trust me it may seem like standing up to your homophobic relatives is tough but like I said it's not the same.

Finally, I find it a bit ironic that you are so boldly stating that you don't care about your indoctrination. When you were the one asking for input on religious discrepancies you were trying to sift through. If I talked to a Shiko Shi from two or three years ago would he be boldly challenging Biblical inerrancy, or questioning the dichotomy between good and evil presented in the Old Testament.

Your value system is partially dictated by the time you live in. Don't be so naive as to say that you know you'd do "____" because you follow what you believe to be good or just. As you are probably well aware by now what you find to be "good" or "right" can be just as easily influenced. The 1950's Shiko Shi probably wouldn't be the same as the 1990's Shiko Shi and the same thing can be said for me. Also, I don't think kids in the 50's were able to go to online forums to ask people a diverse group of people their thoughts on the matter.

Originally Posted by Red

You don't think Morgan or Rockefeller belong on this list? Without them, our country would be broke, nonexistent, or like 40 years behind where we are now.

I have nothing against those men but I don't think their attitudes were to perform their great accomplishments for the benefit of their countrymen or mankind. Then again I only know general history about them so I could be horribly wrong. If so please inform me of their greatness that's what this thread is for.

EDIT: I was also gonna point out the things @ShikamaruNara did but I wanted to be more informed before I presented them. From my limited knowledge I think those two men also helped open Pandora's Box in regards to entrepreneurship which has led to some of the poor business practices of today.

[Shisko Shi]

I understand what you mean, ut it is in may character. Ilove to help people and I would hate just to see someone treated liek that. Hell you should see me if a women got beat in front of me. Because it happened and I lost it losts of time.

I was over doing the KKK I know they didn't do it on a drop of a hat, sorry if it sounded liek that. lol

[JLI2infinity]

Originally Posted by Shisko Shi

I understand what you mean, ut it is in may character. Ilove to help people and I would hate just to see someone treated liek that. Hell you should see me if a women got beat in front of me. Because it happened and I lost it losts of time.

I was over doing the KKK I know they didn't do it on a drop of a hat, sorry if it sounded liek that. lol

Naw this is really cool. And I'm glad to know there are people like you who care that much out there.

Wow, someone actually beat a woman in front of you O_O
That's nuts. At least you had the guts to do something though. I've seen those reality hidden cams were people just walk by and pretend like it's none of their business.