Spoiler A thought on the Gedo/Tobi/Madara

[SilentBlade]

So, one more thing, and this sort of was completely off topic from my last topic, but the thought process brought me down this line of thinking so I thought I would share!

Ok, so the Gedo and its particular role with both Obito and Madara. We know the Gedo is responsible for keeping Madara and Obito alive, but it makes me wonder if perhaps Madara and Obito are not speaking as themselves, considering their connection to this particular statue? Remember Madara is obsessed with power, and we know that the statue still possess the ability to artificially keep people alive well past their time (as we saw with Madara). My wonder is, what if the Juubi's will is coming through both Madara and Obito?What if what we are seeing is not so much their respective personalities, but personalities that have been distorted over time?

Consider Madara first, he had done some various crazy things to obtain power, down to the point of sorting out how to unlock the MS, and even taking his brothers eyes. If I build off my last theory and what we see in the sharingan is the unpurified power of the Juubi, then perhaps that still links Madara (and others) to the Juubi's consciousness? My thought here is that what we saw in Madara, was not his will at all, it was the will of the Juubi itself!

Then consider Obito, his initial conversation was that he was "a shell of his former self" when he talks to Sasuke, then he goes on with a conversation with Naruto stating that he is collecting tailed beasts to "become whole again." This change in Obito started taking place when he was trying to get to Kakashi, he noticed somthing strange with his Sharingan then (but not again when he got close to Kakashi). The idea here is once Obito saw what he thought he saw, it was no longer Obito inhabiting that shell, it was now the will of the Juubi, which sought the destruction of the world!

Finally, we get to the conversation where Madara talks about how Nagato was supposed to resurrect him with the Rinnegan, however there are inherent limitations with the Rinnegan and no actual knowledge of the real Madara and that agreement! in fact we hear from Obito that HE was supposed to be resurrected by Nagato when he spoke to Zetsu ( who knew who he was from the start). This further leads me down the logical chain that both Obito and Madara were not their original personalities through the series, but were shells of personalities being controlled by the Juubi.

I would argue that even Nagato was more literally a puppet of the Juubi, though having conquered some of the Juubi's paths, he remained trapped by the hatred he held after Yahiko's death. That trapped him in the Deva path, and kept him from full enlightenment, meaning when he was injected with those chakra rods, it was a sign that he was no longer himself, but being influenced by the Juubi's twisted logic..only at the end was he able to surpass that path, and find pure enlightenment through Naruto before he died (I say that because in the end he used his life force for the massive jutsu, not his chakra which was tainted imo).

Just some thoughts

[Rouge Uchiha18]

well i dont think that is mostly possible. We know that zetsu is keeping obito alive as where he has no right side of his body. But we know for good and certain that madara is being kept alive by getto mazo for sure. But yes i think you are right about the getto mazo takeing over madaras body. If your being kept alive by the getto statue im sure it comes with a risk.

[SilentBlade]

Originally Posted by Rouge Uchiha18

well i dont think that is mostly possible. We know that zetsu is keeping obito alive as where he has no right side of his body. But we know for good and certain that madara is being kept alive by getto mazo for sure. But yes i think you are right about the getto mazo takeing over madaras body. If your being kept alive by the getto statue im sure it comes with a risk.

Zetsu's were being grown off the Gedo statue I believe (Ch.602) They are artificial humans grown from the roots of the gedo, thus they are kind of part of the gedo in a sense.

Edit: Actually, Ch. 602 further solidifies that Hashirama's Woodstyle came from the Juubi, since we see that its a Zetsu type of thing grown from the Gedo which we know is the body of the Juubi, and Madara does call it a "Hashirama clone."

[Rouge Uchiha18]

Yeah but there not really linked there just say root's off the getto mazo. Im talking about how nagato and madara where linked directly to the getto statue.

[SilentBlade]

Originally Posted by Rouge Uchiha18

Yeah but there not really linked there just say root's off the getto mazo. Im talking about how nagato and madara where linked diercetly to the getto statue.

Its true, they were linked directly, but if we look at how they were linked directly to it, I mean essentially we can make the same logical steps with how Obito was. Half his body was made up of a piece of the Juubi's body or somthing that grew off it (I guess). We also saw that another person's "will" can be imprinted into one of those Zetsu kind of things ( as we saw with the black Zetsu having Madara's supposed will). Thus I would continue down the line that Obito was linked through having the Zetsu half body, because that body which linked to all other zetsu was a part of the Juubi.

[Rouge Uchiha18]

Yes but there like yeng and yang. They have there own will though there not like tayuya's thugs as shika said. They have a soul and a mind of there own.

[SilentBlade]

Originally Posted by Rouge Uchiha18

Yes but there like yeng and yang. They have there on will though there not like tayuya's thugs as shika said. They have a soul and a mind of there own.

But we are told they aren't when the reveal of Obito happens. They are artifical humans created by the Mazou, its like they are a collective consciousness. The mystery of the Black one was solved when we are told that before Madara died, he left an imprint of his will on one of the Zetsu, thus we have the black zetsu representing Madara's will past death. But outside of that, they are alive (sort of) and since we know the Gedo is the shell of the Juubi, I take it a step further in stating that since that shell cannot move or speak, those who the Gedo's body interacts with are prone to its evil, its body still has the imprint of what its original goal was, which was the destruction of the world.

They are alive in the same sense that the other tailed beasts are alive, and not just a mass of chakra. imo, the Zetsu's are the last remnant of chakra left over after the divide by RS, and what we see now is the will of the Juubi being played out through people who's will has been bent and who's minds have been tainted.

[Rouge Uchiha18]

Ok let me get this straight,there lifeless and have no soul what so ever. Then that would mean also they chouldnt have enough power to take over sombody. But we saw that when rin died he got controlled by them basically. So im thinking that obito can let them take control of him. Just a theory.

[SilentBlade]

Originally Posted by Rouge Uchiha18

Ok let me get this straight,there lifeless and have no soul what so ever. Then that would mean also they chouldnt have enough power to take over sombody. But we saw that when rin died he got controlled by them basically. So im thinking that obito can let them take control of him. Just a theory.

I think we're passing each other in what we are trying to say lol..ok!

So what I mean isn't that they are lifeless, but they aren't living in terms of human standards. Its kind of like how the Bijuu are beasts outside the realm of humans or other animals, they are something different, powerful with self awareness.

So to further down that chain now, they are alive by standards of how a tailed beast would be alive, the Juubi never actually died, its power was taken and formed into 9 new tailed beasts, each with their own personalities. However in the story we are told that the Juubi was a malicious beast bent on the destruction of the world! I know the story says its body was the basis for the moon, but we now know that the Gedo is infact the body of the Juubi. That means perhaps the dormant Juubi, which created Zetsu, inherently gave the Zetsu its will and some of its power (we saw how much just SOME of the Kyuubi's power gave Naruto a power up in early childhood). That said, we know where it draws power from!

So my statement would be because it was "born" of the Gedo Mazou, one could argue that the Juubi was where it received both its power and its inherent will.

I believe the idea is that the full power and consciousness of the Juubi cannot be awakened until it has received its power back from the nine tailed beasts, at which time it will no longer be dormant, as we see.

[kalmeast]

So you're saying ever since the Juubi was sealed by the Rikoudo, it's been scheming by projecting his will on the uchiha from the very first day the Older son Inherited the sages eyes... Because of his hatred for his younger brother, the rinnegan that the sage had passed down begun to be affected by his hatred (juubi's will) so that down the line, juubi manipulated the uchiha's hatred and finally converted the Rinnegan into sharingan... so that in other for them to gain strength, the Uchiha's would begin by killing their best friend, then taking the sibling's eyes and so on...

eventually, influencing madara to have the idea to resurrect him (the juubi) so he can rampage the world once again... so juubi will become the final villian... He'd being the villain behind the curtains all this while?

I'm i getting your point or am i misinterpreting what you're saying... to me it makes most sense...it'd end up being a great twist!

[Rouge Uchiha18]

Originally Posted by SilentBlade

I think we're passing each other in what we are trying to say lol..ok!

So what I mean isn't that they are lifeless, but they aren't living in terms of human standards. Its kind of like how the Bijuu are beasts outside the realm of humans or other animals, they are something different, powerful with self awareness.

So to further down that chain now, they are alive by standards of how a tailed beast would be alive, the Juubi never actually died, its power was taken and formed into 9 new tailed beasts, each with their own personalities. However in the story we are told that the Juubi was a malicious beast bent on the destruction of the world! I know the story says its body was the basis for the moon, but we now know that the Gedo is infact the body of the Juubi. That means perhaps the dormant Juubi, which created Zetsu, inherently gave the Zetsu its will and some of its power (we saw how much just SOME of the Kyuubi's power gave Naruto a power up in early childhood). That said, we know where it draws power from!

So my statement would be because it was "born" of the Gedo Mazou, one could argue that the Juubi was where it received both its power and its inherent will.

I believe the idea is that the full power and consciousness of the Juubi cannot be awakened until it has received its power back from the nine tailed beasts, at which time it will no longer be dormant, as we see.

Yeah. But hey we both got different theory's

[Rouge Uchiha18]

Originally Posted by kalmeast

So you're saying ever since the Juubi was sealed by the Rikoudo, it's been scheming by projecting his will on the uchiha from the very first day the Older son Inherited the sages eyes... Because of his hatred for his younger brother, the rinnegan that the sage had passed down begun to be affected by his hatred (juubi's will) so that down the line, juubi manipulated the uchiha's hatred and finally converted the Rinnegan into sharingan... so that in other for them to gain strength, the Uchiha's would begin by killing their best friend, then taking the sibling's eyes and so on...

eventually, influencing madara to have the idea to resurrect him (the juubi) so he can rampage the world once again... so juubi will become the final villian... He'd being the villain behind the curtains all this while?

I'm i getting your point or am i misinterpreting what you're saying... to me it makes most sense...it'd end up being a great twist!

That is what im trying to saying as well but aint going as well. You make some nice obsevation's kealmeast

[Shisko Shi]

Maybe... I mean I honstly do notbelieve the Moon Eye Plan is true, Because it would never work... I think there is a plan within a plan.

[SilentBlade]

I guess I should clarify a few things, my general thought here is that the eyes that were inherited still contined the Juubi's chakra, that is where they drew their power from and the Juubi itself was the originator of the dojutsu that came to be known as the Rinnegan/Sharingan.

So the general thought is that the Sharingan is the unpurified version of the Rinnegan because the Uchiha do not have the ability to purify the chakra like the Uzumaki do (i kinda developed this beside the Woodstyle/Rinnegan theory). So my general thought is that the using the Sharingan the way it has been , and not having a more purified version eventually corrodes and corrupts the user! The MS is like poking holes in a bucket, not only does it infuse that sort of malicious chakra I would say that it slowly drives you to madness.

Edit: The moons eye plan makes sense not for either Obito or Madara, but in terms of somthing the Juubi would want if you think about it in that context.

[Rouge Uchiha18]

Originally Posted by Shisko Shi

Maybe... I mean I honstly do notbelieve the Moon Eye Plan is true, Because it would never work... I think there is a plan within a plan.

I do also,i think orochimaru is involved as well.

[SilentBlade]

It makes sense in terms of the Juubi's goal, which is a more apocalyptic world where there is no free will and basically making all humans into the Juubi's slaves...just a thought :-D

[Rouge Uchiha18]

Yeah but that is the point of the infinate tsukuyomi moon phase jutsu.

[SilentBlade]

Originally Posted by Rouge Uchiha18

Yeah but that is the point of the infinate tsukuyomi moon phase jutsu.

which is why it makes no sense in terms of somthing Obito or even Madara would want, but they are working towards that goal anyway. Thus the idea here is that they are being used, and something in the things they've said through the series makes me believe that they are carrying out the Juubi's will and being used by the Juubi, not the other way around.

[Rouge Uchiha18]

I think the only reason why obito is going through with this is to bring back rin once he makes this "utopia"

[SilentBlade]

Originally Posted by Rouge Uchiha18

I think the only reason why obito is going through with this is to bring back rin once he makes this "utopia"

But its so far out of character and it just doesn't make sense! she was a crush, and I really (REALLY) want to believe that Kishi reconciles this motive somehow! because the death of a woman that was never his significant other to justify all this just makes no sense...even if it did back then one would hope maturity would bring about some reasonableness.

This would kind of deal with that weak reasoning, that grief that he felt at that moment allowed him to be lost to the Juubi's will, kind of like Naruto's reaction when he thought he saw Hinata die in front of him. He lost control and the Kyuubi pretty much came out and took over in that grief filled moment.