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View Poll Results: Should people, by law, be allowed to own guns?
Yes 20 57.14%
No 10 28.57%
Well, let me explain... 5 14.29%
Voters: 35. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 01-07-2013, 12:50 PM   #121
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Default Re: Right to bear arms

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jakropha View Post
I know where you getting at with this, and it just doesn't work, we all live in a world where mankind is always subject to crime, you just haven't experienced it yet...
When I find out that a close family member of mine, can steal, deal drugs, and beat people up, AND get treated well in the prison? I become appalled at how the government babies us like that, and so forth.
If some stupid 14 year old breaks into your house, he should be shot, and if he isn't shot, the owner would probably stab him, and if not, strike him with a blunt object.
Either way the defender got the job done.

Most of the people who are against guns, really have no knowledge of the matter, like everything else that is antagonized in this god forsaken country.

If I were defending myself, not out of personal choice, but I wouldn't choose a gun to defend myself, I just don't see it as my personal weapon of choice.
I would not however, be inclined to select something less fitting of a defense mechanism, should the need fit so.
If guns are illegal, citizens will still arm themselves, and therefore, become lawbreakers, therefore the law becomes somewhat of another prohibition era... we don't want that.

Fighting it is just going to get nowhere, guns are here to stay, just like nuclear warheads and rapists, it's just something that happens because we as humanity are sinful, rotten creatures at the core, every single one of us.
I personally blame the media for desensitizing my generation to guns, nobody really understands what it's like anymore. We don't need more gun control, we just need less stupid people.

Seriously, simple solution, while resolving any further conflict with what ifs that have happened time and time again over the course of history, just make the morons in this country take a mandatory class in school that teaches them about warfare/weaponry, without having such a bias, it's the only way to make sure we don't get one testicle men who are involved in important opinion change our country for the worst.

This can be applied to numerous things, and I think parents being heavily involved would be an important thing too.
Sweden prohibited the civilian ownership of guns long ago... the result is a smaller murder rate than most civilized countries of the world. Indeed, it depends more on the people than the weapons, but this can also be changed. It is always possible to control how people grow up and what they learn; by doing this we can create a generation of nice people that will not kill each other. We only need to make sure that our children are not exposed to poverty, violence, drugs, cruelty or other things that will provoke them into becoming criminals in the future.
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Old 01-07-2013, 02:07 PM   #122
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Default Re: Right to bear arms

Since this is becoming a redundant subject anyway, since none of us can actually assert our views to the government anymore.

Let me put it off on a high note, I sure wish there was such a thing as a generation of nice people
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Old 01-07-2013, 03:30 PM   #123
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Default Re: Right to bear arms

Sorry but I hate to break it to you. The murder percentage did not go down people simply switched weapons.
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Old 01-07-2013, 04:12 PM   #124
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Default Re: Right to bear arms

Quote:
Originally Posted by Saiyan View Post
I guess it makes me sound naive but I want to believe that wouldn't happen in the United States and we would be able to serve as a model for the rest of the world.

Love and Peace like Trigun!

I guess that makes me sound really naive, I don't think love and peace gone global could happen with guns.
Having such a heartfelt desire for peace is not necessarily naive. It can be yes, especially with this topic, but I admire these types of views honestly.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ninja of Cao View Post
"Unable to defend themselves" is what you say, but I don't consider murder a way to defend oneself. If none of those countries had established gun control it would instead be: "From 1929 to 1953, about 20 million dissidents and about 20 million police and government-supportive activists were killed in brutal gun fights because civilians were able to wield guns" and so on.

It is our divine right to protect our own, plain and simple. Murder happens everyday, even in the animal kingdom, so would you have all predatorial animals go vegan too?

You don't need guns if there are no dangerous criminals in the country, and if you are constantly at risk of being subject to crime, then you don't live in a developed country. Arming civilians will not lessen murders, it will increase murders (yes, criminals are humans too and killing them is murder no matter the situation). A few people may, at some point in their lives, be forced to kill in self-defense, but unless it is absolutely the last solution then those people are murderers. For example, if a 14-year old unarmed kid breaks into my house and steals from me, should I shoot him/her simply because I have a gun and it's legal? I think not.

Well guess what, there are more criminals each day here in the US. So we do need guns. Arming civilians does lessen murders in the sense that they can protect themselves and others around them, before a psychopathic sharpshooter unleashes full magazines unto a crowd of people.

Your example is completely poor no offense. What would you do if a 20+ year old with a weapon broke into your home? Just sit there while that person murders your family and then you? I find such an approach to be cowardice. It is good to hate guns in the uses of massacres, murders and the like. But it is better to have the good judgement to know when to use a gun and when not to.

Enabling guns is the same as enabling murders. Fight crime by making sure that only the police have access to guns. Also, eliminate any way for criminals to get a hold of guns. It worked for Sweden, so it should work anywhere else as well.

Wrong. Enabling Criminals and the Government to own guns but take them from the citizenry is enabling murder, especially genocide. Sorry but you still have yet to counter that whatsoever. Gun Control precedes Genocide. Plain and simple.

It worked for Sweden? Yeah at what costs?
In bold for you.
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Old 01-07-2013, 10:06 PM   #125
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Default Re: Right to bear arms

Ok @Jinchuuriki your responses are a bit extreme. Stating gun control is a precursor to genocide is kind of a joke. I always ask people this when they bring up their whole apocalyptic, government turns on us scenarios. Seriously what do you think would happen if the military decided to take us down now? Do you think your handgun will protect you, or your shotgun, hell I'll even give you and everyone in your neighborhood an assault rifle and you guys are still going down...HARD.

Average civilians are in no way, shape, or form adequately trained to take down soldiers. Trust me this is coming from someone with former military and police officers in his family. They would probably have an easier time taking you all alive than you would killing them.

Now for the rest of your examples...
Quote:
It is our divine right to protect our own, plain and simple. Murder happens everyday, even in the animal kingdom, so would you have all predatorial animals go vegan too?
It's a funny thing that we tend to do as humans. When it suits us we are animals and justify our actions by what happens in nature but on other issues we stress our differences as humans from our brothers and sisters on other branches of the evolutionary tree. You justify murder by animal behavior but animals don't have our sense or morality or consciousness for that matter. Do you justify abandoning our young to raise themselves or having babies eat each other because of a limited food supply like some animals do?

Quote:
Well guess what, there are more criminals each day here in the US. So we do need guns. Arming civilians does lessen murders in the sense that they can protect themselves and others around them, before a psychopathic sharpshooter unleashes full magazines unto a crowd of people.
Yeah I was with you all the way until here. You act like an untrained individual in a frantic crowd of people will calmly reach for his or her gun, assess the situation, and hit the target. Maybe that is possible for someone arriving on the scene from another location but let's be realistic here. It is not a natural instinct to face danger head on, people are going to flee from the trouble especially if you have a wife and kids you want to protect, engaging in a James Bond shoot out isn't gonna get you anywhere.

Quote:
For example, if a 14-year old unarmed kid breaks into my house and steals from me, should I shoot him/her simply because I have a gun and it's legal? I think not.
Quote:
What would you do if a 20+ year old with a weapon broke into your home? Just sit there while that person murders your family and then you?
Neither of these examples are poor because they both happen and the response should be situational. You yourself have to assess the risk to all parties involved. A lot of times burglars are looking to get in and get out if it seems like the criminal is about to flee engaging him is not the best idea. On the same token if that criminal is about to set foot into the room of your sleeping baby girl you either go for the alarm or the weapon.

But notice that neither of those situations required an assault rifle to handle or an SMG.

My whole view on this is to establish an assault rifles ban. If someone is claiming they need an AR-15 for self defense they are either going up against the mafia or have no idea what they are talking about. People certainly don't need those weapons for hunting either. As for individuals who want to use AR's at a shooting range, I believe that they should treat the range just like they do laser tag arenas. You come in, check out a gun, use it while your there, and give it back. If you want your own gun THAT badly then they should let you buy one and give you a locker to store it in, but that gun isn't leaving the range.
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Old 01-08-2013, 05:22 AM   #126
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Default Re: Right to bear arms

I don't care what other nations or citizens think about gun laws, to be honest. But keep guns out of my country. Sweden has been safe from mass shootings for many decades, and will hopefully continue with that. There's a reason why we have such a low murder rate compared to nations that enable civilians to own guns (for example, Finland, which have had many school shootings in recent years). If I have a gun and lose my temper, I will use it even if I'm not threatened. That is human nature, and the reason why guns should only be available to those who have trained for many years in how to use them, and know exactly when to use them. Otherwise, we will see many dead people soon...
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Old 01-08-2013, 07:16 AM   #127
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Default Re: Right to bear arms

^ Guns = Death, no matter in who's hands, it will always bring dead people. Isn't that the goal? To stop the killing, no matter which side it is? Kthxbai.
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Old 01-08-2013, 10:21 AM   #128
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Default Re: Right to bear arms

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ninja of Cao View Post
I don't care what other nations or citizens think about gun laws, to be honest. But keep guns out of my country. Sweden has been safe from mass shootings for many decades, and will hopefully continue with that. There's a reason why we have such a low murder rate compared to nations that enable civilians to own guns (for example, Finland, which have had many school shootings in recent years). If I have a gun and lose my temper, I will use it even if I'm not threatened. That is human nature, and the reason why guns should only be available to those who have trained for many years in how to use them, and know exactly when to use them. Otherwise, we will see many dead people soon...
Sweden =/= United States. There aren't nearly as many people that already possess guns in Sweden. There's a much smaller population for the government to control and a better infrastructure for them to maintain that control. Creating a war on guns here would be a lot like the war on drugs (which hasn't succeeded). I also don't think that the people in Sweden have to debate the constitutionality of their gun prohibition or have that sense of entitlement.

This is where I think you are being naive.
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Old 01-08-2013, 10:37 AM   #129
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Default Re: Right to bear arms

Quote:
Originally Posted by JLI2infinity View Post
Sweden =/= United States. There aren't nearly as many people that already possess guns in Sweden. There's a much smaller population for the government to control and a better infrastructure for them to maintain that control. Creating a war on guns here would be a lot like the war on drugs (which hasn't succeeded). I also don't think that the people in Sweden have to debate the constitutionality of their gun prohibition or have that sense of entitlement.

This is where I think you are being naive.
We also have educated our citizens to understand that killing is never justified, have an active police force and actually take care of our prisoners rather than torturing them. Many criminals are not evil, but just misunderstood and can be turned into pillars of the community with the right treatment.

And of course, a big country with a large population is more difficult to control, especially in a democracy and with corruption throughout the legal system. But it is not impossible. I recommend that the defense budget is lessened to increase social welfare, because the United States currently stands for 41% of all the world's military budgets together, which is absolutely ridiculous. I don't see the risk of a war between great powers today with all the international cooperation. Those 711,000,000,000 USD should be turned into making hospital care and education free for all, increase the quality of these two, increase law enforcement and remove poverty.
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Old 01-08-2013, 10:44 AM   #130
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Default Re: Right to bear arms

lol
Here in Eastern Europe people build nuclear bombs in their basements.
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Old 01-08-2013, 11:54 AM   #131
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Default Re: Right to bear arms

Quote:
Originally Posted by JLI2infinity View Post
Ok @Jinchuuriki your responses are a bit extreme. Stating gun control is a precursor to genocide is kind of a joke. I always ask people this when they bring up their whole apocalyptic, government turns on us scenarios. Seriously what do you think would happen if the military decided to take us down now? Do you think your handgun will protect you, or your shotgun, hell I'll even give you and everyone in your neighborhood an assault rifle and you guys are still going down...HARD.

How is stating gun control a precursor to genocide a joke, when it is the basic truth of our history in numerous countries where gun control was enforced?

I think I will give them hell instead of roll over and give up, like most of you here suggest.

Average civilians are in no way, shape, or form adequately trained to take down soldiers. Trust me this is coming from someone with former military and police officers in his family. They would probably have an easier time taking you all alive than you would killing them.

You forget about veterans, and those who truly wish to protect the people. Not every soldier will obey such orders.

Now for the rest of your examples...


It's a funny thing that we tend to do as humans. When it suits us we are animals and justify our actions by what happens in nature but on other issues we stress our differences as humans from our brothers and sisters on other branches of the evolutionary tree. You justify murder by animal behavior but animals don't have our sense or morality or consciousness for that matter. Do you justify abandoning our young to raise themselves or having babies eat each other because of a limited food supply like some animals do?

How do you know an animal doesn't have our sense or morality or consciousness? You have no proof to back up that claim. One could argue numerous scenarios where various animals have shown (even if just a little) some sort of consciousness/morality, such as a dog who stays by their owners side after they die.

I'm not answering that last one, because that is going far off the point and subject of the thread.




Neither of these examples are poor because they both happen and the response should be situational. You yourself have to assess the risk to all parties involved. A lot of times burglars are looking to get in and get out if it seems like the criminal is about to flee engaging him is not the best idea. On the same token if that criminal is about to set foot into the room of your sleeping baby girl you either go for the alarm or the weapon.

But notice that neither of those situations required an assault rifle to handle or an SMG.



My whole view on this is to establish an assault rifles ban. If someone is claiming they need an AR-15 for self defense they are either going up against the mafia or have no idea what they are talking about. People certainly don't need those weapons for hunting either. As for individuals who want to use AR's at a shooting range, I believe that they should treat the range just like they do laser tag arenas. You come in, check out a gun, use it while your there, and give it back. If you want your own gun THAT badly then they should let you buy one and give you a locker to store it in, but that gun isn't leaving the range.

I'm going to agree to disagree with you on all of this. You have your perceptions and I have mine, and I will leave it at that.
In bold.
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Old 01-08-2013, 11:58 AM   #132
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Default Re: Right to bear arms

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ninja of Cao View Post
We also have educated our citizens to understand that killing is never justified, have an active police force and actually take care of our prisoners rather than torturing them. Many criminals are not evil, but just misunderstood and can be turned into pillars of the community with the right treatment.

And of course, a big country with a large population is more difficult to control, especially in a democracy and with corruption throughout the legal system. But it is not impossible. I recommend that the defense budget is lessened to increase social welfare, because the United States currently stands for 41% of all the world's military budgets together, which is absolutely ridiculous. I don't see the risk of a war between great powers today with all the international cooperation. Those 711,000,000,000 USD should be turned into making hospital care and education free for all, increase the quality of these two, increase law enforcement and remove poverty.
Good luck getting the corrupt cops here to abide by those morals.

Um no. Socialism is the worst idea for this country. Why should I work my ass off, so some piece of sh!t can sit at home all day and do nothing and get benefits? Screw that.

Increase law enforcement? Another bad idea here. Removing poverty will not happen.

You toot Sweden's horn on every level yet you don't even realize the current Eurozone crisis in the markets. Every country in the EU, that has a Socialism-type economy is plummeting and going bankrupt due to nobody working, yet still spending money on healthcare, groceries and benefits that they don't do anything for.

Sorry but that is the worst way to handle the US situation.
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Old 01-08-2013, 12:01 PM   #133
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Default Re: Right to bear arms

Socialism can't work with a monetary system. So, as long as the monetary system exists worldwide, socialism won't work. Kind of unfortunate in my opinion, as I like the concept of socialism.
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Old 01-08-2013, 12:05 PM   #134
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Default Re: Right to bear arms

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Socialism can't work with a monetary system. So, as long as the monetary system exists worldwide, socialism won't work. Kind of unfortunate in my opinion, as I like the concept of socialism.
If we wanted to use a country as a model, Iceland would be the best.

They jailed the corrupt banksters who committed fraud and paid the people instead and got back on its feet.

Problem with Socialism, is that no one does anything. Look at Denmark or Greece. More than half of their populations don't work yet the spending is still high due to the national health and benefits from socialism.

It is a great idea on paper, but in the real scheme of things, it is worse than capitalism/democracy.

Personally I despise Socialism, it invites complacent laziness. Where people feel like they deserve everything without doing anything. Which is absolute crap. If you want something in life, work your ass off for it.

EDIT: Apologies for going off topic here.

I will stop posting here though, since I don't want to cause a flame war.

Just know you are all in for a rude awakening.
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Old 01-08-2013, 12:27 PM   #135
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Socialism is a fool's desire, not a fool's dream, but a fool's desire. I don't think that humans don't have the ability to reach such a state. The issue that the seven deadly sins have already become a part of our society. Hell, they've been a part of our society since we developed brains.

I would love to wake up in the morning to a working socialist world without a monetary system. People would be working as doctors because they want to and not just for a big fat paycheck. I wouldn't have to worry about bills or paying to go to college. I could just learn with teachers who want to teach. I could write my books, knowing that I wouldn't get paid and I would be happy with it, if I didn't need some kind of payment to live in this world.

If you instill socialism in this world though, you have to deal with human nature. Sloth means there are going to be many people who won't work. Gluttony means that there will be consumers who don't give back (don't really have an issue with this, but it won't work in this world as the number would be too vast). Envy, people would take things from other people just because the supply has reached 0. Lust, actually not so bad really on the surface, but it would cause people to infringe on a person's personal freedoms to quench their own obsessions. Greed, do I even need to say anything about this? People want everything, and they would refuse to give things to people regardless of what it is. They would hoard things they want for themselves. Wrath, people become angry. The fighting wouldn't stop. People would trample each other still to get things before they run out of supply. Pride is always deadly in any society. You could have dictator who makes everyone do things for him. They feel that they are right and there are no exceptions.

Socialism, not a bad idea on paper in the slightest. But there is so much involved with the human condition, supply and demand and the monetary system which makes it impossible as we are now. Perhaps I could write a story based on such an ideal world one day where enough people play their part to make such a society function or just make this argument publicly in a story or interview one day. Just, it's fine to dream of such a world, but it's a problem when you start desiring and expect it.
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Old 01-08-2013, 12:45 PM   #136
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Default Re: Right to bear arms

Haha! It doesn't matter if they are misunderstood. You don't have the right to commit a crime because you had a bad life. If you want to prevent crimes start understanding before the crime is commited and the criminal becomes the criminal.
Protecting yourself does justify death. No one has the right to kill you because they're pissy. If they do, they lose their right to life. There is a contract between everyone on earth and when that contract is broken.
Also you toot Sweden horn Mr. Holier than thou about Sweden's crime rate and how you treat criminals. Ironically, Singapore has the lowest crime rate in the world and they "torture" aka cane people and execute them when proven guilty.
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Old 01-09-2013, 10:44 AM   #137
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Default Re: Right to bear arms

"Their paranoid fear of a possible dystopic future prevents us from addressing our actual dystopic present. We can't do anything, because the right is too worried about the rise of "imaginary Hitler."

I think Jon Stewart did a good job on that quote. A lot of people are letting their paranoia get the best of them. Gun control would in no way be absolute, nor would be people acquiring guns for personal protection. People can speculate all they like, that doesn't mean it'll be the definite outcome. A perfect solution is simply a luxury that cannot be obtained in a matter such as this.
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Old 01-11-2013, 07:04 PM   #138
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Default Re: Right to bear arms

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We also have educated our citizens to understand that killing is never justified,]
Like hell killing is never justified- you have a god given right to defend yourself, your community and your country by lethal force if necessary



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Originally Posted by Ninja of Cao View Post
have an active police force and actually take care of our prisoners rather than torturing them. Many criminals are not evil, but just misunderstood and can be turned into pillars of the community with the right treatment.
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I found myself mulling over a discussion in our class in History and Moral Philosophy. Mr. Dubois was
talking about the disorders that preceded the breakup of the North American republic, back in the XXth

century. According to him, there was a time just before they went down the drain when such crimes as
Dillingers were as common as dogfights. The Terror had not been just in North America — Russia and
the British Isles had it, too, as well as other places. But it reached its peak in North America shortly
before things went to pieces.

"Law-abiding people," Dubois had told us, "hardly dared go into a public park at night. To do so was to
risk attack by wolf packs of children, armed with chains, knives, homemade guns, bludgeons... to be hurt
at least, robbed most certainly, injured for life probably — or even killed. This went on for years, right up
to the war between the Russo-Anglo-American Alliance and the Chinese Hegemony. Murder, drug
addiction, larceny, assault, and vandalism were commonplace. Nor were parks the only places — these
things happened also on the streets in daylight, on school grounds, even inside school buildings. But parks
were so notoriously unsafe that honest people stayed clear of them after dark."
I had tried to imagine such things happening in our schools. I simply couldnt. Nor in our parks. A park
was a place for fun, not for getting hurt. As for getting killed in one "Mr. Dubois, didn’t they have
police? Or courts?"
"They had many more police than we have. And more courts. All overworked."
"I guess I don’t get it." If a boy in our city had done anything half that bad... well, he and his father would
have been flogged side by side. But such things just didn’t happen.
Mr. Dubois then demanded of me, "Define a ‘juvenile delinquent.’ "
"Uh, one of those kids — the ones who used to beat up people."
"Wrong."
"Huh? But the book said — "
"My apologies. Your textbook does so state. But calling a tail a leg does not make the name fit ‘Juvenile
delinquent’ is a contradiction in terms, one which gives a clue to their problem and their failure to solve it.
Have you ever raised a puppy?"
"Yes, sir."
"Did you housebreak him?"
"Err... yes, sir. Eventually." It was my slowness in this that caused my mother to rule that dogs must stay
out of the house.
"Ah, yes. When your puppy made mistakes, were you angry?"
"What? Why, he didn’t know any better; he was just a puppy.
"What did you do?"
"Why, I scolded him and rubbed his nose in it and paddled him."
"Surely he could not understand your words?"
"No, but he could tell I was sore at him!"
"But you just said that you were not angry."
Mr. Dubois had an infuriating way of getting a person mixed up. "No, but I had to make him think I was.
He had to learn, didn’t he?"
"Conceded. But, having made it clear to him that you disapproved, how could you be so cruel as to
spank him as well? You said the poor beastie didn’t know that he was doing wrong. Yet you indicted
pain. Justify yourself! Or are you a sadist?"
I didn’t then know what a sadist was — but I knew pups. "Mr. Dubois, you have to! You scold him so
that he knows he’s in trouble, you rub his nose in it so that he will know what trouble you mean, you
paddle him so that he darn well won’t do it again — and you have to do it right away! It doesn’t do a bit of good to punish him later; you’ll just confuse him. Even so, he won’t learn from one lesson, so you
watch and catch him again and paddle him still harder. Pretty soon he learns. But it’s a waste of breath
just to scold him." Then I added, "I guess you’ve never raised pups."

Many. I’m raising a dachshund now — by your methods. Let’s get back to those juvenile criminals.
The most vicious averaged somewhat younger than you here in this class... and they often started their
lawless careers much younger. Let us never forget that puppy. These children were often caught; police
arrested batches each day. Were they scolded? Yes, often scathingly. Were their noses rubbed in it?
Rarely. News organs and officials usually kept their names secret — in many places the law so required
for criminals under eighteen. Were they spanked? Indeed not! Many had never been spanked even as
small children; there was a widespread belief that spanking, or any punishment involving pain, did a child
permanent psychic damage."
(I had reflected that my father must never have heard of that theory.)
"Corporal punishment in schools was forbidden by law," he had gone on. "Flogging was lawful as
sentence of court only in one small province, Delaware, and there only for a few crimes and was rarely
invoked; it was regarded as ‘cruel and unusual punishment.’ " Dubois had mused aloud, "I do not
understand objections to ‘cruel and unusual’ punishment. While a judge should be benevolent in purpose,
his awards should cause the criminal to suffer, else there is no punishment — and pain is the basic
mechanism built into us by millions of years of evolution which safeguards us by warning when something
threatens our survival. Why should society refuse to use such a highly perfected survival mechanism?
However, that period was loaded with pre-scientific pseudo-psychological nonsense.
"As for ‘unusual,’ punishment must be unusual or it serves no purpose." He then pointed his stump at
another boy. "What would happen if a puppy were spanked every hour?"
"Uh... probably drive him crazy!"

"Probably. It certainly will not teach him anything. How long has it been since the principal of this school
last had to switch a pupil?"

"Uh, I’m not sure. About two years. The kid that swiped — "
"Never mind. Long enough. It means that such punishment is so unusual as to be significant, to deter, to
instruct. Back to these young criminals — They probably were not spanked as babies; they certainly
were not flogged for their crimes. The usual sequence was: for a first offense, a warning — a scolding,
often without trial. After several offenses a sentence of confinement but with sentence suspended and the
youngster placed on probation. A boy might be arrested many times and convicted several times before
he was punished — and then it would be merely confinement, with others like him from whom he learned
still more criminal habits. If he kept out of major trouble while confined, he could usually evade most of
even that mild punishment, be given probation — ‘paroled’ in the jargon of the times.
"This incredible sequence could go on for years while his crimes increased in frequency and viciousness,
with no punishment whatever save rare dull-but-comfortable confinements. Then suddenly, usually by law
on his eighteenth birthday, this so-called ‘juvenile delinquent’ becomes an adult criminal — and
sometimes wound up in only weeks or months in a death cell awaiting execution for murder. You — "
He had singled me out again. "Suppose you merely scolded your puppy, never punished him, let him go
on making messes in the house... and occasionally locked him up in an outbuilding but soon let him back
into the house with a warning not to do it again. Then one day you notice that he is now a grown dog and still not housebroken — whereupon you whip out a gun and shoot him dead. Comment, please?"
"Why... that’s the craziest way to raise a dog I ever heard of!"
"I agree. Or a child. Whose fault would it be?"
"Uh... why, mine, I guess."
"Again I agree. But I’m not guessing."
"Mr. Dubois," a girl blurted out, "but why? Why didn’t they spank little kids when they needed it and use
a good dose of the strap on any older ones who deserved it — the sort of lesson they wouldn’t forget! I
mean ones who did things really bad . Why not?"
"I don’t know," he had answered grimly, "except that the time-tested method of instilling social virtue and
respect for law in the minds of the young did not appeal to a pre-scientific pseudo-professional class who
called themselves ‘social workers’ or sometimes ‘child psychologists.’ It was too simple for them,
apparently, since anybody could do it, using only the patience and firmness needed in training a puppy. I
have sometimes wondered if they cherished a vested interest in disorder — but that is unlikely; adults
almost always act from conscious ‘highest motives’ no matter what their behavior."
"But — good heavens!" the girl answered. "I didn’t like being spanked any more than any kid does, but
when I needed it, my mama delivered. The only time I ever got a switching in school I got another one
when I got home and that was years and years ago. I don’t ever expect to be hauled up in front of a
judge and sentenced to a flogging; you behave yourself and such things don’t happen. I don’t see
anything wrong with our system; it’s a lot better than not being able to walk outdoors for fear of your life
— why, that’s horrible!"
"I agree. Young lady, the tragic wrongness of what those well-meaning people did, contrasted with what
They thought they were doing, goes very deep. They had no scientific theory of morals. They did have a
theory of morals and they tried to live by it (I should not have sneered at their motives) but their theory
was wrong — half of it fuzzy-headed wishful thinking, half of it rationalized charlatanry. The more earnest
they were, the farther it led them astray. You see, they assumed that Man has a moral instinct."
"Sir? But I thought — But he does! I have."
"No, my dear, you have a cultivated conscience, a most carefully trained one. Man has no moral
instinct . He is not born with moral sense. You were not born with it, I was not — and a puppy has
none. We acquire moral sense, when we do, through training, experience, and hard sweat of the mind.
These unfortunate juvenile criminals were born with none, even as you and I, and they had no chance to
acquire any; their experiences did not permit it. What is ‘moral sense’? It is an elaboration of the instinct
to survive. The instinct to survive is human nature itself, and every aspect of our personalities derives from
it. Anything that conflicts with the survival instinct acts sooner or later to eliminate the individual and
thereby fails to show up in future generations. This truth is mathematically demonstrable, everywhere
verifiable; it is the single eternal imperative controlling everything we do."
"But the instinct to survive," he had gone on, "can be cultivated into motivations more subtle and much
more complex than the blind, brute urge of the individual to stay alive. Young lady, what you miscalled
your ‘moral instinct’ was the instilling in you by your elders of the truth that survival can have stronger
imperatives than that of your own personal survival. Survival of your family, for example. Of your
children, when you have them. Of your nation, if you struggle that high up the scale. And so on up. Ascientifically verifiable theory of morals must be rooted in the individual’s instinct to survive —and
nowhere else! — and must correctly describe the hierarchy of survival, note the motivations at each
level, and resolve all conflicts."
"We have such a theory now; we can solve any moral problem, on any level. Self-interest, love of family,
duty to country, responsibility toward the human race — we are even developing an exact ethic for
extra-human relations. But all moral problems can be illustrated by one misquotation: ‘Greater love hath
no man than a mother cat dying to defend her kittens.’ Once you understand the problem facing that cat
and how she solved it, you will then be ready to examine yourself and learn how high up the moral ladder
you are capable of climbing.
"These juvenile criminals hit a low level. Born with only the instinct for survival, the highest morality they
achieved was a shaky loyalty to a peer group, a street gang. But the do-gooders attempted to ‘appeal to
their better natures,’ to ‘reach them,’ to ‘spark their moral sense.’Tosh! Theyhad no ‘better natures’;
experience taught them that what they were doing was the way to survive. The puppy never got his
spanking; therefore what he did with pleasure and success must be ‘moral.’
"The basis of all morality is duty, a concept with the same relation to group that self-interest has to
individual. Nobody preached duty to these kids in a way they could understand — that is, with a
spanking. But the society they were in told them endlessly about their ‘rights.’ "
"The results should have been predictable, since a human being hasno natural rights of any nature."
Mr. Dubois had paused. Somebody took the bait. "Sir? How about ‘life, liberty, and the pursuit of
happiness’?"
"Ah, yes, the ‘unalienable rights.’ Each year someone quotes that magnificent poetry. Life? What ‘right’
to life has a man who is drowning in the Pacific? The ocean will not hearken to his cries. What ‘right’ to
life has a man who must die if he is to save his children? If he chooses to save his own life, does he do so
as a matter of ‘right’? If two men are starving and cannibalism is the only alternative to death, which
man’s right is ‘unalienable’? And is it ‘right’? As to liberty, the heroes who signed that great document
pledged themselves tobuy liberty with their lives. Liberty isnever unalienable; it must be redeemed
regularly with the blood of patriots or italways vanishes. Of all the so-called ‘natural human rights’ that
have ever been invented, liberty is least likely to be cheap and isnever free of cost.
"The third ‘right’? — the ‘pursuit of happiness’? It is indeed unalienable but it is not a right; it is simply a
universal condition which tyrants cannot take away nor patriots restore. Cast me into a dungeon, burn me
at the stake, crown me king of kings, I can ‘pursue happiness’ as long as my brain lives — but neither
gods nor saints, wise men nor subtle drugs, can insure that I will catch it."
Mr. Dubois then turned to me. "I told you that ‘juvenile delinquent’ is a contradiction in terms.
‘Delinquent’ means ‘failing in duty.’ Butduty is anadult virtue — indeed a juvenile becomes an adult
when, and only when, he acquires a knowledge of duty and embraces it as dearer than the self-love he
was born with. There never was, there cannot be a ‘juvenile delinquent.’ But for every juvenile criminal
there are always one or more adult delinquents — people of mature years who either do not know their
duty, or who, knowing it, fail."
"And that was the soft spot which destroyed what was in many ways an admirable culture. The junior
hoodlums who roamed their streets were symptoms of a greater sickness; their citizens (all of them
counted as such) glorified their mythology of "rights"... and lost track of their duties. No nation, so
constituted, can endure."



granted the author who wrote Starship trooper is a nut bag..and the idea of being children is monstrous..but that nonsense aside he makes a very good point about the catastrophic failure of our justice system

simply put- you punish the guilty and you punish them hard and you never justify or make excuses of their actions
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Old 01-21-2013, 01:20 AM   #139
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Default Re: Right to bear arms

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The Homecoming King
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You're captain of the football team and are heavily involved in other sports. You actually get pretty decent grades, but most people don't know that. Most girls really really REALLY want to date you, but you don't notice or care for them. They're just fangirls. Like Sasuke.
You have a cool headed manner, and it almost appears as serious. When you're out in the games playing, you're just as serious but extremely aggressive. This is what leads the NDF football team to victory (lol in reality the team would suck ass but lets just imagine it otherwise)
You're popular and a lot of people look up to you and see you as most likely to win "Best All Around" in the yearbook. You walk into a party and everyone shouts "AYYY IT'S COLLIIIIIN" and you get attacked by high fives by your teammates and crew and hugs by desperate females. But most people don't know a lot about you personally because you don't let anyone in a lot.
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Old 01-21-2013, 06:01 AM   #140
Ninja of Cao
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Default Re: Right to bear arms

Quote:
Originally Posted by The Immortal Watch Dog View Post
Like hell killing is never justified- you have a god given right to defend yourself, your community and your country by lethal force if necessary





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granted the author who wrote Starship trooper is a nut bag..and the idea of being children is monstrous..but that nonsense aside he makes a very good point about the catastrophic failure of our justice system

simply put- you punish the guilty and you punish them hard and you never justify or make excuses of their actions
So you claim that murder is the right thing to do? There is no way to justify murder, but criminals will only be vengeanceful if punished harshly. There are psychological reasons behind most crimes, so it should be to mental hospitals and not prisons that we send murderers, rapists and child abusers. Psychological treatment is the answer, not prison. Because seriously, what is the point of locking a criminal up for 25 years and then letting him/her out so he/she can commit more crimes? It is better to give criminals the treatment they need to understand that what they did was wrong, why they should not do it again, as well as removing any aggression in their behavior.

If one person punches you and you blow his head off and call it "self-defense", then you are no better than fellow murderers. There are other ways to defend oneself than killing - locking doors and windows at night, live close to a police station, or better still: live in a developed country where the risk of being subject to crime is low. Murderers and those who kill in self-defense are the same; people who take the lives of other people. And don't start saying "I have a right to kill in self-defense", because you don't. You have no more right to kill a murderer than he have to kill you, and no matter how a human being acts he is still a human being with human rights. No one is more valuable than anyone else, and no one has the right to answer crimes with crimes, or murder with murder. Some may say that self-defense is a good reason to kill, but it really isn't. Murderers also claim to have good reasons for their crimes, most commonly vengeance I believe.
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