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Old 01-10-2013, 08:07 AM   #41
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Default Re: The reason why I think Naruto will not get rinnegan

Its okay to have discussions like this specially when there is no chap comming out for 2 - 3 weeks.

@Paradigm. You have a good point but you didnt get the whole story. We have had debated on this in different thread. So to start.

Kyubi no Yoko said Sharringan to Rinnegan is an example of evolution. I said no.

I just cant understand why Kyubi no Yoko thinks that Madara unlocking the rinnegan from sharringan is an example of evolution when it is just a simple development or growth or maturity.

Yes, Sharringan to MS to EMS is considered evolution (rinnegan is a mutation) but that it is evolution of sharringan growth not evolutions with a meaning of inherited characteristics of biological populations over successive generations. (Many generations involved)

Then in the middle of the discussions he brought this argument "Evolution is a series of mutations" I said Dude, that is not Madara's case. I explained, explained and explained that we are not talking about evolution of sharringan thru Madara's offspring but I got nothing..

All I want to say is.. Madara is a mutant because of Hashirama, hes got hashirama's face on his chest and Madara having a rinnegan is just a result of mutating himself. He mutated himself for the seek of duplicating Rikudo's powers.

The guy, I mean KnY totally didnt understand what I was trying to explain to him.

@Silent
Yeah, your right. I doubt if Kishi will mention the word "Evolution and Mutation" in this manga.
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Old 01-10-2013, 08:26 AM   #42
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Default Re: The reason why I think Naruto will not get rinnegan

its not even a question of whether the mention of the word "mutation" or "evolution" will be made, but we are applying the rules and limitations of the real world in to a world that is not constrained by such things! I mean, those things can exist, but since Kishi has created this world with its own set of rules, only he can define how evolution and mutation occur within that world.
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Old 01-10-2013, 08:44 AM   #43
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Default Re: The reason why I think Naruto will not get rinnegan

Thats true, but that way of thinking is just wrong if you ask me. Kishi can use the same logic of science that we have in the real world if he wants to. I mean there's nothing wrong with applying what we have in the real world. Most of the readers like realistic plot development. Thats why sometimes there are threads popping out about what we call "Plot Holes"
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Old 01-10-2013, 08:48 AM   #44
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Default Re: The reason why I think Naruto will not get rinnegan

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Originally Posted by Rikudo Sage View Post
Thats true, but that way of thinking is just wrong if you ask me. Kishi can use the same logic of science that we have in the real world if he wants to. I mean there's nothing wrong with applying what we have in the real world. Most of the readers like realistic plot development. Thats why sometimes there are threads popping out about what we call "Plot Holes"
We're talking about the mutations and developments of dojutsu's and things that are outside the realm of reality! I mean even if we are applying the real world science of evolution and mutation, these things exist outside of those definitions because they don't address such things in the real world. DNA does not contain chakra or chakra markers etc...so all we can do is hope to figure out how it works! I mean for some of these things I don't even think Kishi knows the answer because he hasn't figured it out either
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Old 01-10-2013, 10:07 AM   #45
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Default Re: The reason why I think Naruto will not get rinnegan

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Originally Posted by SilentBlade View Post
We're talking about the mutations and developments of dojutsu's and things that are outside the realm of reality! I mean even if we are applying the real world science of evolution and mutation, these things exist outside of those definitions because they don't address such things in the real world. DNA does not contain chakra or chakra markers etc...so all we can do is hope to figure out how it works! I mean for some of these things I don't even think Kishi knows the answer because he hasn't figured it out either
Your points are all valid but think about it.

Creativity is all it takes to do that. He doesnt necessary have to follow the right process of mutations and evolutions. Simple science, imagination and creativity would suffice.

With excellent creativity skill Kishi can still apply and explain about the mutations and development of doujutsu using simple logic of science. Kishi already did that. Do you remember the Naruto vs Neji fight? Byakugan dont exist in the real world but with Kishi's creativity he was able to introduced how byakugan and gentlefist could affect ones chakra flow. He used science in conjuction with his creativity. I cant forget how amazed I was at that time. Another example is Sasuke's kirin jutsu.

Sadly, that creativity is being gone. Had Kishi's been consistently brilliant throughout the series there's nothing he couldnt explain.
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Old 01-10-2013, 01:26 PM   #46
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Default Re: The reason why I think Naruto will not get rinnegan

Mutation is a change in the DNA.

Evolution includes several changes in the DNA - mutations for a certain peroid of time.

Technically speaking, it is an EVOLUTION, helped by an artificial mutation.
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Old 01-10-2013, 09:57 PM   #47
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Default Re: The reason why I think Naruto will not get rinnegan

I don't believe in evolution including a definition of time that's less than one generation to the next.

I would have to see an example definition that includes that. Something better than an obscure college's definition online.
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Old 01-10-2013, 11:41 PM   #48
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Default Re: The reason why I think Naruto will not get rinnegan

u guys have done well in ruining the thread because of your individual egos of not letting go lol... evolution/mutation...I don't think kishi thought of these details while writing...

regardless of how brilliant our knowledge of a subject could be...when in abundance, it becomes redundant and tiresome...so is this subject of evo/mutation.

tho' i have an answer to all these...it'd only breed more derailment from the OP...


BTW...Another reason Naruto will not get the rinnegan is because when naruto goes into KM mode, the Kuubi's Pupil will split the rinnegan's ripples in half...hence makin it look like a wrinkled vag!na
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Old 01-11-2013, 04:19 AM   #49
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Default Re: The reason why I think Naruto will not get rinnegan

LOL kalmeast.
It's true Kishi didn't think of that, but we have the right to discuss about it anyway.

I will mention this every time, evolution = series of mutations (changes in the DNA) that happen gradually over years.

Also, I demand your answer, send me a message.

By the way, your reason of why Naruto will not obtain the Rinnegan is AWESOME.
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Old 01-11-2013, 07:49 AM   #50
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Default Re: The reason why I think Naruto will not get rinnegan

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Originally Posted by paradigm1977 View Post
I don't believe in evolution including a definition of time that's less than one generation to the next.

I would have to see an example definition that includes that. Something better than an obscure college's definition online.
Me too. That evolution refers to change of inherited characteristics of generations over generations where mutation can be involved.
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Originally Posted by Kyūbi no Yōko View Post
Mutation is a change in the DNA.

Evolution includes several changes in the DNA - mutations for a certain peroid of time.

Technically speaking, it is an EVOLUTION, helped by an artificial mutation.
Kyubi no Yoko, Our subject is evolution of sharringan meaning growth of sharringan or maturity.

This evolution you are talking about (series of mutations) refers to changes of species over suceeding generations. A valid example of this is evolution of apes to human however that is not our subject of discussion. Our subject is evolution of sharringan to rinnegan meaning growth or development. A series of mutations does not apply when Madara evolved his standard sharringan to ms to ems because there is clearly no mutation on that part. So basically, to say that evolution is series of mutations is considered false if the subject we are talking about is just a simple growth or maturity of sharringan. evolve.

You tend to mix the evolution that refers to changes of species over suceeding generations that can only happen hundred of years to evolution that simply refers to growth.
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Old 01-11-2013, 02:09 PM   #51
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Default Re: The reason why I think Naruto will not get rinnegan

There is mutation, his DNA changed when he got from MS -> EMS.

How can you say there wasn't a mutation CLEARLY, did you see his DNA before and after?
Logically, his DNA changed, as it always does.
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Old 01-11-2013, 03:37 PM   #52
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Default Re: The reason why I think Naruto will not get rinnegan

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Originally Posted by Kyūbi no Yōko View Post
There is mutation, his DNA changed when he got from MS -> EMS.

How can you say there wasn't a mutation CLEARLY, did you see his DNA before and after?
Logically, his DNA changed, as it always does.

My hair was red as a child. Then it turned to brown by age 10. My hair did not mutate. The change was in the DNA already.

It's the same with MS to EMS, the potential was already in the DNA. We know this because MS and EMS have occured before. The change is not evolution because it's not a fundamental DNA change. the program is always the same (but not exact as dna never is, unless a split or clone).

and to add to this thread. Since it has been hijacked.

The only reason naruto will not get the rinnegan is because as fans we will disconnect a little if he has those unnatural eyes. And his expression in his eyes will be lost. Innocense will be lost. And we will start to forget about his roots because he is Nagato 2.0
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Old 01-12-2013, 11:21 AM   #53
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Default Re: The reason why I think Naruto will not get rinnegan

i think the rinnegan is to powerful for him
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Old 01-12-2013, 12:02 PM   #54
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Default Re: The reason why I think Naruto will not get rinnegan

Mutations are changes of chromosomes which str not caused by segregation or recombination.
With mutations DNA changes!
DNA before mutation =/= DNA after mutation
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Old 01-14-2013, 07:10 AM   #55
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Default Re: The reason why I think Naruto will not get rinnegan

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kyūbi no Yōko View Post
There is mutation, his DNA changed when he got from MS -> EMS.
That is not mutation. Not all DNA change can lead to mutation. When humans grow old, the DNA changed, hair gets gray and skin gets wrinkly but you can't say the hair and skin mutated just because the DNA was changed.

Madara evolving MS to EMS is not a mutation either because he and Izuna's DNA both have the same DNA sets (same bloodline). Unlike Rinnegan where Madara used a different set of DNA (Hashirama) to unlock Rinnegan and acquire Hashirama's wood style. That is mutation.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kyūbi no Yōko View Post
How can you say there wasn't a mutation CLEARLY, did you see his DNA before and after?
Logically, his DNA changed, as it always does.
This kind of questioning lead to poor discussion. Look I can do the same. How can you say that its a mutation and the DNA was changed? Did you examine his DNA structure before and after? That's just wrong.
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Originally Posted by alanis23 View Post
i think the rinnegan is to powerful for him
Yes and its not his style to posses such power as that.
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Old 01-15-2013, 05:04 AM   #56
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Default Re: The reason why I think Naruto will not get rinnegan

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Originally Posted by Rikudo Sage View Post
That is not mutation. Not all DNA change can lead to mutation. When humans grow old, the DNA changed, hair gets gray and skin gets wrinkly but you can't say the hair and skin mutated just because the DNA was changed.

Madara evolving MS to EMS is not a mutation either because he and Izuna's DNA both have the same DNA sets (same bloodline). Unlike Rinnegan where Madara used a different set of DNA (Hashirama) to unlock Rinnegan and acquire Hashirama's wood style. That is mutation.

This kind of questioning lead to poor discussion. Look I can do the same. How can you say that its a mutation and the DNA was changed? Did you examine his DNA structure before and after? That's just wrong.

Yes and its not his style to posses such power as that.
In genetics, a mutation is a change in the nucleotide sequence of the genome of an organism, virus, or extrachromosomal genetic element.

A nucleic acid sequence is a succession of letters that indicate the order of nucleotides within a DNA (using GACT) or RNA (GACU) molecule.

//

When humans grow old, their DNA changes as you said.
I gave you the definition of a mutation straight from Wikipedia. Technically, a MUTATION happens when the DNA or RNA sequence changes (hair color happens because of a change in the DNA sequence).

So, when a human's hair color changes actually a MUTATION happened.

Anyway, as kalmeast mentioned, Kishi doesn't even care about this.
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Old 01-15-2013, 07:15 AM   #57
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Default Re: The reason why I think Naruto will not get rinnegan

Humans growing old happens naturally, although the dna changed overtime, old people couldnt be called mutants. Is Madara a mutant? Is having a face on the chest do happens naturally? Therefore, the answer is yes, Madara is a mutant. You should now see the difference. The idea here is to used those definitions to determine if sharringan can really evolve to rinnegan naturally. I believe no.

Uchihas can progress their sharringan from 2 tomoe to ems naturally but the question is why when it comes to rinnegan it requires to merge their genes with the Senju? This would only mean that the Uchihas cannot unlock rinnegan by natural evolution. Here's my claim.

Rinnegan is not part of sharringan evolution or development by natural means.
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Old 01-15-2013, 07:19 AM   #58
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Default Re: The reason why I think Naruto will not get rinnegan

Are you guys mad? Naruto has Sage mode, Kyuubi, has full control of the Kyuubi's power now, and you guys think Rinnegan is too much power for him? YOU GUYS ARE MAD, Naruto beat all of pain's path's just using sage mode, and IF HE HAD FULL CONTROL of the Kyuubi's power at that time, Pain wouldn't even stood a chance against Naruto. At all.
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Old 01-15-2013, 11:40 AM   #59
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Default Re: The reason why I think Naruto will not get rinnegan

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Originally Posted by Obito View Post
Are you guys mad? Naruto has Sage mode, Kyuubi, has full control of the Kyuubi's power now, and you guys think Rinnegan is too much power for him? YOU GUYS ARE MAD, Naruto beat all of pain's path's just using sage mode, and IF HE HAD FULL CONTROL of the Kyuubi's power at that time, Pain wouldn't even stood a chance against Naruto. At all.
We are talking about him fighting the Juubi, Madara and Obito...much more substantial in power than Pain, even with all 7 of his corpses! The Rinnegan would be the last major power up he could potentially get..This fight has the stakes much higher than any other, and because of that, just having control over the 9 tails isn't enough...thats 1 Bijuu vs. the combine power of all of them!

Its why I believe when he received all that chakra from the other tailed beasts, there is something going on, or some purpose that has to be unlocked. I believe that we will see soon, and potentially we will see a real rinnegan and the sage essentially be reborn!
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Old 01-15-2013, 05:47 PM   #60
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Default Re: The reason why I think Naruto will not get rinnegan

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Originally Posted by SilentBlade View Post
We are talking about him fighting the Juubi, Madara and Obito...much more substantial in power than Pain, even with all 7 of his corpses! The Rinnegan would be the last major power up he could potentially get..This fight has the stakes much higher than any other, and because of that, just having control over the 9 tails isn't enough...thats 1 Bijuu vs. the combine power of all of them!

Its why I believe when he received all that chakra from the other tailed beasts, there is something going on, or some purpose that has to be unlocked. I believe that we will see soon, and potentially we will see a real rinnegan and the sage essentially be reborn!

The purest Izanagi in bringing illusions to reality is higher than rinnegan. Unless we asume the rinnegan can create in the same way.

The sage could do this (not referred to as Izanagi for him...as you know). But it may not have been his eyes. It might have been something in the body. The "sage" aspect that made him powerful, rather than focusing on the eyes.
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