Spoiler The reason why I think Naruto will not get rinnegan

[Rinn3gan]

There could be an argument made as to after Madara is defeated (It is presumed even though he is currently the strongest character) how will Naruto suppress the Juubi? We all know how the Sage did it, and that could be that loop hole that is needed to give Naruto the Rinnegan. Not to mention once he has the Rinnegan he will fulfill the true prophecy of being the second coming of the Six Sage. I don't know how it would transpire, if it would involve Sasuke/Obito or anything, but it is entirely plausible and shouldn't be ruled out until this arc is over.

[Rikudo Sage]

Originally Posted by Kyūbi no Yōko

It actually is an EVOLUTION, even though he had to obtain Senju DNA. It was a requirement so that it evolves, it was pretty NATURAL.

No it wasnt. I would like to disagree. A natural evolution is change without altering DNA sequence of a gene. Gene mutations occur in two ways: they can be inherited from a parent or acquired during a person's lifetime (Madara's case in green)

Originally Posted by Kyūbi no Yōko

Evolution is the change in the inherited characteristics of biological populations over successive generations.

It is simply a change overtime w/o DNA alteration.

In biology an evolution is change of inherited abilities overtime of ancestors to successive generation. In Madara's case we are not talking about the change of his offspring.

The exact meaning of evolution and mutation is too complex to deal with and most scientist are often confused about it but there is one big difference between evolution and mutation and the rule is simple.

Evolution is a change in which there is no alteration of genes and dna. It is simply a change overtime. (No outside factor needed to evolve example is Standard to MS to EMS)

while

Mutation is a permanent change in the DNA sequence of a gene. (There was an outside factor which is Hashirama's DNA causing Madara's EMS to mutate to Rinnegan.)

Think about it do you agree that the Rikudo's genes and DNA are not the same with Madara before he fused his dna with Hashirama's?

What Madara did is he simply recreated the Rikudo's genes and DNA by fusing the two perfect bloodlines (Uchiha and Senju). In this case the perfect genes that is compatible is Madara's and Hashirama's. By recreating the Rikudo's genes and DNA. Uchiha Madara duplicated the Rikudo's doujutsu as a result he awakened his own Rinnegan.

If you notice the sharringan and rinnegan structure are not the same compare to when a standard sharringan is evolving to MS and EMS.

The fact that Madara changed his own DNA sequence in order to duplicate the Rikudo's DNA sequence is simply what we call a Mutation.

Originally Posted by Kyūbi no Yōko

He did alter his DNA, but he used that to EVOLVE.

If he did alter his DNA then we couldnt call that natural evolution.

[Kyūbi no Yōko]

A mutation is a singular event that changes an organism.

Evolution is a series of mutations that eventually will change a species (or subspecies) if given enough time and genetic distance.

///

It is true that he did alter his DNA by himself, however if that is called mutation, it was only to cause evolution since evolution is caused by many mutations (natural or artificial).

Evolution from EMS to Rinnegan requires Uchiha DNA and Senju DNA (basically Senju + Uchiha = Rikudo), since this mutation can't happen naturally (basically it's impossible that you get Senju DNA naturally), Madara artificially did it (altered his DNA).

Technically it's EVOLUTION helped by an artificial MUTATION.
We both agree on the part that he used both DNA to create Rikudo's DNA therefore making it possible to achieve the Rinnegan, but for the other part (if he achieved the Rinnegan with evolution or mutation) we differentiate.

[SilentBlade]

Originally Posted by Kyūbi no Yōko

A mutation is a singular event that changes an organism.

Evolution is a series of mutations that eventually will change a species (or subspecies) if given enough time and genetic distance.

///

It is true that he did alter his DNA by himself, however if that is called mutation, it was only to cause evolution since evolution is caused by many mutations (natural or artificial).

Evolution from EMS to Rinnegan requires Uchiha DNA and Senju DNA (basically Senju + Uchiha = Rikudo), since this mutation can't happen naturally (basically it's impossible that you get Senju DNA naturally), Madara artificially did it (altered his DNA).

Technically it's EVOLUTION helped by an artificial MUTATION.
We both agree on the part that he used both DNA to create Rikudo's DNA therefore making it possible to achieve the Rinnegan, but for the other part (if he achieved the Rinnegan with evolution or mutation) we differentiate.

We are still assuming a lot of facts here! We believe it is Senju & Uchiha that make up RS, but I disagree. I think something different is present here that we should consider. It was said that the Uchiha and Senju were gifted the eyes and body of the Sage...

I believe it was not the eyes and body of the sage that they received, but the eyes and body of the Juubi (I think this was one of Kalmeast's theories). That said, we saw an image (drawn) of the elder son with swirls in his eyes, they DID NOT look like the rinnegan, I would take leap of faith and say that perhaps THAT was his MS, not a Rinnegan at all!

With THAT said, I would argue that the Uzumaki ended up being the actual recipients of the sage's power, and that perhaps it was NOT the DNA of Hashirama that awoke the Rinnegan, it was after he gave his eyes to Nagato (weak btw) that the rinnegan became active (maybe). I still stick with my assumption that the power to awaken the Rinnegan is inherent in the Uzumaki, but the power to control the Juubi is inherent in the EMS, thus why Obito didn't trade out everything entirely (aside from his phase shift power).

[Rikudo Sage]

Originally Posted by Kyūbi no Yōko

Evolution is a series of mutations

Evolution is a series of mutation?
When a kid mature to teenage then to adult do you call that series of mutation? Is there a change or alteration with the genes and DNA? I think you are really wrong with how do you define evolution.

I know that mutations can contiribute to evolutionary change of the species. But evolution thru mutations will take time and most commonly seen in the offspring of a certain species.

Originally Posted by SilentBlade

I would argue that the Uzumaki ended up being the actual recipients of the sage's power, and that perhaps it was NOT the DNA of Hashirama that awoke the Rinnegan, it was after he gave his eyes to Nagato (weak btw) that the rinnegan became active (maybe). I still stick with my assumption that the power to awaken the Rinnegan is inherent in the Uzumaki, but the power to control the Juubi is inherent in the EMS, thus why Obito didn't trade out everything entirely (aside from his phase shift power).

It is pretty much confirmed that Hashirama's DNA is the key to unlock rinnegan. By fusing a perfect genes from Uchiha and Senju clan. Madara were able to recreate Rikudo's DNA and as a result a new Rinnegan was born.

PROOF

Madara himself stated that he awakened the rinnegan first before giving it to Nagato. This is the reason why he was able to utilize Gedo Mazo to extend his life.

[SilentBlade]

Originally Posted by Rikudo Sage

Evolution is a series of mutation?
When a kid mature to teenage then to adult do you call that series of mutation? Is there a change or alteration with the genes and DNA? I think you are really wrong with how do you define evolution.

I know that mutations can contiribute to evolutionary change of the species. But evolution thru mutations will take time and most commonly seen in the offspring of a certain species.


It is pretty much confirmed that Hashirama's DNA is the key to unlock rinnegan. By fusing a perfect genes from Uchiha and Senju clan. Madara were able to recreate Rikudo's DNA and as a result a new Rinnegan was born.

PROOF

Madara himself stated that he awakened the rinnegan first before giving it to Nagato. This is the reason why he was able to utilize Gedo Mazo to extend his life.

Ah, but right there is the real question! Did HE awaken it and summon the Ghedo, or did Nagato? At the point we see him, he had already given his eyes away to some child! There NO established relationship, and I actually sort of wonder if that was left purposely vague (maybe he gave his eyes to someone else) or perhaps it was just poor plot/character development. However! If it were just so simple to awaken the Rinnegan, one could argue that many more would have been awakened, in fact one could argue that with some of Tsunade's DNA, Kakashi should be able to take his MS a step further! I simply don't believe it is as simple as we are making it out.

But I would still argue based on the fact that if we observe the Juubi, the Juubi's body is made of wood, and he has a Sharingan..thus the body and the eye, the same gifts we are told were imparted to the sons. That would give a proper place for the Uzumaki to fit into the mix, as opposed to just some offshoot clan of the younger son.

[paradigm1977]

Seems to be some confusion on evolved and evolution. Not the same. There need be no mutations, but there are natural mutations that do occur in dna structure. These are considered a part of evolution. They need not be induced by chemicals or radiation or otherwise, man-made variables.

The counter argument of a child growing to an adult wasn't a good one either.

Some traits are dominant and some are recessive. Evolution could be due to a dominant gene introduced into the gene pool (mating) and coming more and more to the for over generations and that gives an overall species change that is evolution.

Natural selection takes part as well, as genetic traits that increase either survival rate or likelihood of mating will be passed on more and more through generations. If that special trait becomes typical for the species over time, it would be considered evolution.

I wouldn't try to fit evolution into one or two sentences, since we are seeking an understanding of the subject rather than a dictionary definition which could leave openings for semantics.

Evolution is meant as a change over generations. Evolved isn't held to the same lengthy time standard or need to be a large part of a species population (population- as in species in an area, rather than world wide).

a wiki defininition says a change in inherited characteristics of biological population over time (meaning a wide section of the species, in other words).

[Ghost4321]

If he got the rinnegan, wouldn't that just make him stupid op?

[Obito]

Lol, Indeed. He's already op being the the Kyuubi's Jinny, and having Sage mode, if he gets Rinnegan. Wow. That's all I can say, wow.

[Sir Michael]

Originally Posted by Obito

Lol, Indeed. He's already op being the the Kyuubi's Jinny, and having Sage mode, if he gets Rinnegan. Wow. That's all I can say, wow.

True.

[Kyūbi no Yōko]

Originally Posted by Rikudo Sage

Evolution is a series of mutation?
When a kid mature to teenage then to adult do you call that series of mutation? Is there a change or alteration with the genes and DNA? I think you are really wrong with how do you define evolution.

I know that mutations can contiribute to evolutionary change of the species. But evolution thru mutations will take time and most commonly seen in the offspring of a certain species.

When the early Homo species reached the Homo Sapiens phase (humans nowadays) they EVOLVED.

There were clearly changes in the DNA during that long process, basically several MUTATIONS.

Mutations are the raw materials of evolution.

Evolution absolutely depends on mutations because this is the only way that new alleles and new regulatory regions are created.

//

I explained it fairly well in the previous reply, I have nothing more to say.

[Rikudo Sage]

Originally Posted by SilentBlade

Ah, but right there is the real question! Did HE awaken it and summon the Ghedo, or did Nagato? At the point we see him, he had already given his eyes away to some child! There NO established relationship, and I actually sort of wonder if that was left purposely vague (maybe he gave his eyes to someone else) or perhaps it was just poor plot/character development. However! If it were just so simple to awaken the Rinnegan, one could argue that many more would have been awakened, in fact one could argue that with some of Tsunade's DNA, Kakashi should be able to take his MS a step further! I simply don't believe it is as simple as we are making it out.

But I would still argue based on the fact that if we observe the Juubi, the Juubi's body is made of wood, and he has a Sharingan..thus the body and the eye, the same gifts we are told were imparted to the sons. That would give a proper place for the Uzumaki to fit into the mix, as opposed to just some offshoot clan of the younger son.

Its not that simple to unlock rinnegan but if you think about it. The Rikudo's genes were divided into two clans. The older son and the younger son. Uchiha Madara is simply a reincarnation of the older son while Hashirama Senju is also reincarnation of the younger son. So in order to duplicate the Rikudo's genes. Madara's genes and Hashirama's genes were the perfect combination to recreate the Rikudo's power.

This cannot simply achieve by just banging some random Uchiha or Senju. It takes a genius like Madara to unlock MS. Any random Uchiha has no capability in doing that and we know that to unlock EMS you need to transplant another MS. So its not that so simple.

Originally Posted by Kyūbi no Yōko

When the early Homo species reached the Homo Sapiens phase (humans nowadays) they EVOLVED.

There were clearly changes in the DNA during that long process, basically several MUTATIONS.

I see. So youre one of them... who believe that humans came from apes. If that's the case I cant argue with you anymore. Because I do believe in bible that the humans was created from ash by the god.

Humans were created by god started from Eve and Adam.

Therefore, your point just doesnt make sense to me. Because that theory of humans that evolved from apes were not proven true.

And this example of humans evolving from apes just doesnt fit with Madara. Evolution thru mutations takes a long period of time not to mention generations over generations. Madara unlocked his rinnegan in a short span of 20 - 30 years.

Even a blind person can see that the rinnegan is different from sharringan. Thier structure is not same and abilities gained from possesing such doujutsu.

Since you do believe that rinnegan is an evolution from sharringan. Do you think that the Rikudo unlocked his rinnegan from sharringan too?

[kalmeast]

evolution now!...this thread is getting outta hand...

btw...u know how many contemporary scientist have renounced the macro-evolution process? like apes evolving to humans?

There are more holes to that theory than kishi could ever make for naruto lol ;

[koshej]

kalmeast
I have a personal feeling that NaruSakus worship macro-evolution, cause both are stillborns.
Sorry for off-topic, just ignore it.

[SilentBlade]

Rikudo, man you misunderstand what I am saying...I don't believe either of the son's in that story represent what we are looking to find. Think about the Juubi, what is his body made of..what is Hashirama known for? What does his eye represent? what do the eyes of the Uchiha resemble? What is the connection between the Uchiha and the Juubi as well as other Bijuu? These are all questions of importance!

There is nothing that remotely resembles RS in any sort of way in either the Senju or Uchiha clans...I would potentially argue that through the series there is a better case to be made in terms of how this relationship actually unfolded. I believe that both the Uchiha and Senju were actually related to the younger son, thus we see the power of the Juubi being given to them (we have to ask the question as to 'what did the younger son inherit that the elder wanted so badly?'). There is a good case to be made here if you pay attention to the dialogue we see throughout the series!

Thus Uchiha & Senju DNA = Juubi's full power, but not RS's! Now, I know the next logical question will be "well the story we're told says that it didn't happen that way," and I would say, ya, but they also told us Tobi and was Madara, and that turned out to be bull, meaning misleading details exist! I would also look at the dialogue (especially Naruto's) because through the series Naruto doesn't reference love much if at all, but he does always talk about getting stronger, and more powerful! Those are the ways the elder son sought to keep peace! the younger son spoke of love, and actually we see both Obito and Madara use those in their dialogue's...

I would go a step further and state that the younger son's clan was corrupted by not being able to control the Juubi power's granted to them. One more step would be the apology that the sage offered to the nine Bijuu before he departed, he knew he made a mistake somewhere, and perhaps that was it! The Elder son's clan (the Uzumaki) were actually the proper choice of heir because with strength they could control their emotion, with that power they could keep peace..just my thoughts

[Rikudo Sage]

Originally Posted by kalmeast

evolution now!...this thread is getting outta hand...

btw...u know how many contemporary scientist have renounced the macro-evolution process? like apes evolving to humans?

There are more holes to that theory than kishi could ever make for naruto lol ;

Thats what im trying to explain. The complexity of evolution just doesnt fit with Madara gaining the rinnegan. There was big change of structure if you observe the sharringan tomoe and rinnegan six paths.
For me, Madara is just a mutant. He's got Hashirama's face on his chest. He mutated himself to gain Rikudo's prowess.

@Silent
My response earlier is just to address why I think its not that simple to unlock rinnegan.

But here from now its a different story you brought up. I still dont know if the Juubi's physic is made of wood because by looking at Kishi's art its hard to tell.
But this is interesting thought that you brought up. The Uchiha and Senju being the descendants of Younger son who inherited Juubi's power and Uzumaki being the descendant of Older son. This would be a big twist really.

The only problem I have is.. If there's a lie in Tobi's story telling between Older Son and Younger Son. I dont see why he would do that.

[Kyūbi no Yōko]

Originally Posted by Rikudo Sage

I see. So youre one of them... who believe that humans came from apes. If that's the case I cant argue with you anymore. Because I do believe in bible that the humans was created from ash by the god.

Humans were created by god started from Eve and Adam.

Therefore, your point just doesnt make sense to me. Because that theory of humans that evolved from apes were not proven true.

And this example of humans evolving from apes just doesnt fit with Madara. Evolution thru mutations takes a long period of time not to mention generations over generations. Madara unlocked his rinnegan in a short span of 20 - 30 years.

Even a blind person can see that the rinnegan is different from sharringan. Thier structure is not same and abilities gained from possesing such doujutsu.

Since you do believe that rinnegan is an evolution from sharringan. Do you think that the Rikudo unlocked his rinnegan from sharringan too?

Charles Darwin proved that humans' origin is from the apes. He is one of the first who actually proposed the theory of evolution in general, so if you talk science with me, don't mix religion.

Also, I took just an EXAMPLE of EVOLUTION, that didn't happen with artificial mutations as help.
EVOLUTION is a series of mutations, since there are changes in the DNA while evolving.

Madara used artificial mutation so that it is possible for him to evolve.a

[Rikudo Sage]

Originally Posted by Kyūbi no Yōko

Charles Darwin proved that humans' origin is from the apes. He is one of the first who actually proposed the theory of evolution in general, so if you talk science with me, don't mix religion.

Also, I took just an EXAMPLE of EVOLUTION, that didn't happen with artificial mutations as help.
EVOLUTION is a series of mutations, since there are changes in the DNA while evolving.

Madara used artificial mutation so that it is possible for him to evolve.a

Dude, youre not addressing my point properly and please keep your temperature at low. If you cant do that. Dont post in my thread. Alright?

[paradigm1977]

Originally Posted by Rikudo Sage

No it wasnt. I would like to disagree. A natural evolution is change without altering DNA sequence of a gene. Gene mutations occur in two ways: they can be inherited from a parent or acquired during a person's lifetime (Madara's case in green)

not right. Environment can play a roll. Your use of "altering," suggests intent to change. And does not have the same meaning as "acquired." Your argument must be narrowed to be correct. viruses can mutate genes. So can diet. That's acquired and natural, and altered.

Originally Posted by Rikudo Sage

It is simply a change overtime w/o DNA alteration.

Generations is still a component of the definitions I have seen. But you correct your self next. And DNA is always altering. We are constantly losing DNA we no longer need. Mutations are predominantly losses of genetic information. (adding is of course possible - diet, viruses, etc.)

Originally Posted by Rikudo Sage

In biology an evolution is change of inherited abilities overtime of ancestors to successive generation. In Madara's case we are not talking about the change of his offspring.

Right on both accounts.

Originally Posted by Rikudo Sage

Evolution is a change in which there is no alteration of genes and dna. It is simply a change overtime. (No outside factor needed to evolve example is Standard to MS to EMS)

Not true. I covered that though.

Originally Posted by Rikudo Sage

Think about it do you agree that the Rikudo's genes and DNA are not the same with Madara before he fused his dna with Hashirama's?

What Madara did is he simply recreated the Rikudo's genes and DNA by fusing the two perfect bloodlines (Uchiha and Senju). In this case the perfect genes that is compatible is Madara's and Hashirama's. By recreating the Rikudo's genes and DNA. Uchiha Madara duplicated the Rikudo's doujutsu as a result he awakened his own Rinnegan.

But he still doesn't look like Rikudo, so what Madara did, affected the eyes specifically. So I wouldn't say he recreated the rikudos genes. That's too encompassing. He liekly doesn't have Rikudo's exact rinnegans.

Originally Posted by Rikudo Sage

If you notice the sharringan and rinnegan structure are not the same compare to when a standard sharringan is evolving to MS and EMS.

The eyes change color. That isn't structure. They still have pupils and the same shape, right? Skin can change color too. white can turn yellow. Brown or black can turn white. but it's not exactly structure.

Originally Posted by Rikudo Sage

The fact that Madara changed his own DNA sequence in order to duplicate the Rikudo's DNA sequence is simply what we call a Mutation.

Yup.

Originally Posted by Rikudo Sage

If he did alter his DNA then we couldnt call that natural evolution.

Yup. Not natural. Not evolution either.

Originally Posted by Kyūbi no Yōko

Evolution from EMS to Rinnegan requires Uchiha DNA and Senju DNA (basically Senju + Uchiha = Rikudo), since this mutation can't happen naturally (basically it's impossible that you get Senju DNA naturally), Madara artificially did it (altered his DNA).

Shouldn't have referred to it as evolution. It's not. The term is meant to refer to dna changes over generations.

Originally Posted by Kyūbi no Yōko

Technically it's EVOLUTION helped by an artificial MUTATION.
We both agree on the part that he used both DNA to create Rikudo's DNA therefore making it possible to achieve the Rinnegan, but for the other part (if he achieved the Rinnegan with evolution or mutation) we differentiate.

It's not evolution. Just mutations.

Originally Posted by Rikudo Sage

Evolution is a series of mutation?
When a kid mature to teenage then to adult do you call that series of mutation? Is there a change or alteration with the genes and DNA? I think you are really wrong with how do you define evolution.

This example does not match what you quoted. Growing is not mutating. And no one thinks it is.

Originally Posted by Rikudo Sage

It is pretty much confirmed that Hashirama's DNA is the key to unlock rinnegan. By fusing a perfect genes from Uchiha and Senju clan. Madara were able to recreate Rikudo's DNA and as a result a new Rinnegan was born.

PROOF

Madara himself stated that he awakened the rinnegan first before giving it to Nagato. This is the reason why he was able to utilize Gedo Mazo to extend his life.

Not true. Awakening the rinnegan did not extend his life. Maybe you wrote that wrong. But "that is the reason," is not the reason. just the senju dna is used to extend life.

Originally Posted by Kyūbi no Yōko

When the early Homo species reached the Homo Sapiens phase (humans nowadays) they EVOLVED.

There were clearly changes in the DNA during that long process, basically several MUTATIONS.

Mutations are the raw materials of evolution.

Evolution absolutely depends on mutations because this is the only way that new alleles and new regulatory regions are created.

//

I explained it fairly well in the previous reply, I have nothing more to say.

Yeah this explanation/post is good.

Originally Posted by Rikudo Sage

This cannot simply achieve by just banging some random Uchiha or Senju. It takes a genius like Madara to unlock MS. Any random Uchiha has no capability in doing that and we know that to unlock EMS you need to transplant another MS. So its not that so simple.

Obito wasn't a genius. kakashi was. Bad example.

Originally Posted by Rikudo Sage

I see. So you're one of them... who believe that humans came from apes. If that's the case I cant argue with you anymore. Because I do believe in bible that the humans was created from ash by the god.

Humans were created by god started from Eve and Adam.

Therefore, your point just doesnt make sense to me. Because that theory of humans that evolved from apes were not proven true.

And this example of humans evolving from apes just doesnt fit with Madara. Evolution thru mutations takes a long period of time not to mention generations over generations. Madara unlocked his rinnegan in a short span of 20 - 30 years.

Flagged!! sarcasm? You can't write off the human example just because you are religious. You can think around it and use fish to amphibians. Or the evolution of feathers and birds. So no, you may not say the point doesnt make sense to you. You know it does, so you shouldaddress this with a changed example. You are correct on Madara not being a singular generation as evolution. It can only be said the eyes evolved. (not the evolution definition though, improvement).

[SilentBlade]

guys guys! We're arguing a level of genetics and evolution that was likely never taken into deep consideration in this manga. I mean we are going into the science field here much further and outside of the scope! Remember that conventional scientific rules DO NOT apply to the narutoverse!