China vs Russia

[Ninja of Cao]

Comparison:
Two superpowers of the eastern world, two powers that have, are, and will compete with the west in terms of military power. Let us hope that we never need to see this conflict happen, because such devastating power on both sides will affect the entire world.

Comparison:

Spoiler:

Statistics People's Republic of China Russian Federation
Purchasing Power: $10,090 billion $2,223 billion
Defense budget: $100 billion $56 billion
Active soldiers: 2,285,000 1,200,000
Active reserve: 800,000 754,000
Total personnel: 3,085,000 1,954,000
Available manpower: 749,610,775 69,117,271
Logistical vehicles: 55,850 12,000
Mortar systems: 1,050 6,600
Towed artillery: 25,000 12,765
SPG pieces: 2,475 6,000
MRL pieces: 2,600 4,500
AT weapons: 1,250 14,000
AA weapons: 750 4,644
APCs/IFVs: 7,700 24,900
Tanks: 7,500 22,950
Aircraft carriers: 2 1
Submarines: 63 48
Total ships: 972 233
Helicopters: 632 588
Aircraft: 5,176 2,749
ICBMs: 2,883 381
Nuclear warheads: 3,000 12,000

My own conclusion:

Spoiler:

A devastating war. But who would be victorious in the end? Russia has an overwhelming vehicular land force while China has greater capabilities of "light land combat" including infantry, field artillery and logistical vehicles. Russia's tank and artillery power would normally be decisive because of the long land border, but we cannot ignore the fact that most of the border terrain are mountains and deserts (and Mongolia), so other combat aspects will also be important. China's navy is superior (although one of China's two aircraft carriers is not currently in battle condition). The Chinese air force also seems superior, but comparing their quality is impossible to do in a single thread. China also has an enormous arsenal of ballistic missiles, while Russia has an unnecessarily large nuclear arsenal. In a conventional war, I'd say that China would win thanks to larger air force, much more stabile economy and larger defense budget. After all, industrial power is more important than weapons.
Final conclusion: China wins.

EDIT: Perhaps I should have added a "Tied" option, since these two nations are both superpowers, but a tied war is not a total war, right? So even if you believe the result to be tied, please try to vote in favor of the nation you think would win.

[321zigzag3]

I find this battle a bit too situational even for these battles in which situations make a big difference. If you get what I am saying.

[Ninja of Cao]

Originally Posted by 321zigzag3

I find this battle a bit too situational even for these battles in which situations make a big difference. If you get what I am saying.

Indeed. But what battle is not dependent on the situation?

[321zigzag3]

Well they had those border clashes in the Cold War.

[Ninja of Cao]

Originally Posted by 321zigzag3

Well they had those border clashes in the Cold War.

Much have happened since that time. I'd say that the two countries are of equal technology, so numbers will probably matter the most.

[Saiyan]

By the numbers alone I have to say China.

But really, if the numbers were versed I'd still say China.

[The Immortal Watch Dog]

Originally Posted by Saiyan

By the numbers alone I have to say China.

But really, if the numbers were versed I'd still say China.

yeah everybody talks about China's population as if it means they can throw so many millions into battle

the country had a black plague outbreak because even citizens in their biggest cities were hunting rats

it would be a logistical nightmare for even a stable resource rich nation able to do more than feed themselves to mobilize a force large enough to overwhelm Russia,. it would probably collapse the Chinese economy

China has better tech at this point and likely has a better equipped military

Russia is a disgrace compared to what it once was, not sure if they even have a fleet of long range bombers that isn't barely functioning any more

I don't like this war, it's a cripple fight but methinks China has the ability to nail critical Russian pieces of infrastructure before being hit

as to which country can absorb the effects of this war better..not sure on that. but this is a war that would leave either nations economy in utter ruin and not really be of much gain beyond China being able to say "haha USA suck it! We did what you couldn't at your best!!"

[Devils Lawyer]

China has the money, technology and numbers. They hands down rape.

[Shisko Shi]

China has more people then Russia has bullets. They will then take to hand to hand and that monks those shalin monks will kill the KGB

[TheTrueMasterofIllusions]

Pop doesn't mean crap.

[The Immortal Watch Dog]

Originally Posted by Devils Lawyer

China has the money, technology and numbers. They hands down rape.

ehh the numbers don't mean much

its everything else that lets Russian get pimp smacked

Originally Posted by Shisko Shi

China has more people then Russia has bullets. They will then take to hand to hand and that monks those shalin monks will kill the KGB

...Did you just seriously mention Xao Lin monks..fighting an intelligence organization that hasn't existed since the 1990's?

Buddy we all had fun last night but that doesn't mean you can post while completely drunk and on high..

it's either that or you think hilariously false martial arts movies and Red Dawn make for an accurate representation of Russia and China

Originally Posted by TheTrueMasterofIllusions

Pop doesn't mean crap.

what this guy said

[Noctis Arashi]

Are you telling me that Kung Fu Panda and Red Dawn aren't an accurate source of information?!

Russia is a shell of what it once was. Make this prime mentality Russia with modern weapons, and we got ourselves a fight.

[Devils Lawyer]

Originally Posted by The Immortal Watch Dog

ehh the numbers don't mean much

its everything else that lets Russian get pimp smacked

It means they have more bodies to throw at the Russians if it came down to it. Russia would be hard pressed to stop an invasion with that many people coming at them.[/quote]



.

[Shikamaru Nara]

China makes kids go to war AND soldiers, GG.

[The Immortal Watch Dog]

Originally Posted by Noctis Arashi

Are you telling me that Kung Fu Panda and Red Dawn aren't an accurate source of information?!

Russia is a shell of what it once was. Make this prime mentality Russia with modern weapons, and we got ourselves a fight.

prime Russia would probably park their subs outside China's coast and drop a few nukes- since I don't think they can retaliate in that way in that era.

Originally Posted by Devils Lawyer

It means they have more bodies to throw at the Russians if it came down to it. Russia would be hard pressed to stop an invasion with that many people coming at them.



.

Human wave tactics in an era of long ranged missiles and heavy bombers? I suppose because of how decayed Russia is but damn if that doesn't sound like a bad idea when I can order a missile strike that can kill entire divisions in an instant.

but if they tried that against the JDF or Taiwan or the us pacific fleet it'd be very, very different.

[Shisko Shi]

Originally Posted by The Immortal Watch Dog

ehh the numbers don't mean much

its everything else that lets Russian get pimp smacked



...Did you just seriously mention Xao Lin monks..fighting an intelligence organization that hasn't existed since the 1990's?

Buddy we all had fun last night but that doesn't mean you can post while completely drunk and on high..

it's either that or you think hilariously false martial arts movies and Red Dawn make for an accurate representation of Russia and China



what this guy said

Fist don't call me drunk or high. I am not like that and I find that a little offensive. Two that part was a joke, mabe not funny. three Pop doesn't men anything? Really? that is debatable. You get two forces both are the same. Pop does make a diffrence. Unless you are good with stratigy then yea Pop does actully mean something. That and the trainning of the forces. I am not sure now, but years ago Russia was pretty poor. Are they now? that is for you guys to decied. By the way Intelligence or not they could also fight and were soldiers, just like the CIA's feild agents.

China also has money be caus eone we buy almost not all of our crap from them. SO that helps them a little. Also proof numbers do matter look at the battle of Thermopolis. (Did I say thatright?) The spartans lost because it was like 300 vs 3,000,000 That may not be the right number but that is a reason why they lost. It would have been more is Athens did not stop the ships. SO in a batlle Size and Stratigy does mean. If not I would like to see a battle with 1 vs 30 and see the one man win. It may not be a good factor but number does matter.

[The Immortal Watch Dog]

Originally Posted by Shisko Shi

Fist don't call me drunk or high. I am not like that and I find that a little offensive. Two that part was a joke,

you brought up priests and a fallen agency as if either of those two things would matter in a war

either you were joking hence my comment..or you really believe in hong kong phoeey

Originally Posted by Shisko Shi

mabe not funny. three Pop doesn't men anything? Really? that is debatable. You get two forces both are the same. Pop does make a diffrence. Unless you are good with stratigy then yea Pop does actully mean something.

in world war two it mattered, during the Korean war it sorta mattered.

then Vietnam happened when we started using technology that allowed us to annihilate tens of thousands of people in a single bombing raid

numbers kinda stopped mattering majorly in an era of air superiority

Now because of Russia and all maybe it still will but all the same

Originally Posted by Shisko Shi

That and the trainning of the forces. I am not sure now, but years ago Russia was pretty poor. Are they now? that is for you guys to decied. By the way Intelligence or not they could also fight and were soldiers, just like the CIA's feild agents.

you do realize Russia had one of the most dangerous and well trained armies in the world while they were so broke they had people dying of starvation in the streets

when one side is willing to commit everything to a military budget..it can be kinda scary

Originally Posted by Shisko Shi

China also has money be caus eone we buy almost not all of our crap from them. SO that helps them a little. Also proof numbers do matter look at the battle of Thermopolis. (Did I say thatright?) The spartans lost because it was like 300 vs 3,000,000 That may not be the right number but that is a reason why they lost. It would have been more is Athens did not stop the ships. SO in a batlle Size and Stratigy does mean. If not I would like to see a battle with 1 vs 30 and see the one man win. It may not be a good factor but number does matter.

...first of all it wasn't 300 it was more like 7,000 (three hundred Spartans plus two or three Helots a man plus a few thousand soldiers from neighboring regions and I think Thebes) for the first two days then 1,200 the last one. And they weren't fighting three million guys they were fighting 180,000

also those 180,000 could not cross the hot gates (Thermopylae was a spa the name in Greek means hot gates they fought in a friggen vacation resort ) due to how narrow it was they could only fit something like a few thousand guys through at any time.

So the Greeks weren't really outnumbered

also your example of the Thermopylae campaign doesn't actually support you it supports me..because the Greeks murdered ungodly numbers of Persians Soldiers specifically because they had better technology, better weaponry and better equipment and better training which basically meant any battle the Persians fought against the Greeks resulted in usually very high casualties and made conquering Greece kinda pointless.(interesting fact The Persians could defend against a Greek invasion (until Alexander any way) and that was all they needed to do and due to the gap between them they even tended to hire out Greek Mercenary armies. )

This is exactly what China has over Russia (oh and numbers even though it would be kind of nightmarish to try and make use of this) Superior tech, Superier equipment and their training should be on the same level

its a massacre for the exact same reason Thermopylae went so bad- one side pound for pound is superior to the other and in this case in all things numbers included

[Shisko Shi]

Originally Posted by The Immortal Watch Dog

you brought up priests and a fallen agency as if either of those two things would matter in a war

either you were joking hence my comment..or you really believe in hong kong phoeey




in world war two it mattered, during the Korean war it sorta mattered.

then Vietnam happened when we started using technology that allowed us to annihilate tens of thousands of people in a single bombing raid

numbers kinda stopped mattering majorly in an era of air superiority

Now because of Russia and all maybe it still will but all the same



you do realize Russia had one of the most dangerous and well trained armies in the world while they were so broke they had people dying of starvation in the streets

when one side is willing to commit everything to a military budget..it can be kinda scary



...first of all it wasn't 300 it was more like 7,000 (three hundred Spartans plus two or three Helots a man plus a few thousand soldiers from neighboring regions and I think Thebes) for the first two days then 1,200 the last one. And they weren't fighting three million guys they were fighting 180,000

also those 180,000 could not cross the hot gates (Thermopylae was a spa the name in Greek means hot gates they fought in a friggen vacation resort ) due to how narrow it was they could only fit something like a few thousand guys through at any time.

So the Greeks weren't really outnumbered

also your example of the Thermopylae campaign doesn't actually support you it supports me..because the Greeks murdered ungodly numbers of Persians Soldiers specifically because they had better technology, better weaponry and better equipment and better training which basically meant any battle the Persians fought against the Greeks resulted in usually very high casualties and made conquering Greece kinda pointless.(interesting fact The Persians could defend against a Greek invasion (until Alexander any way) and that was all they needed to do and due to the gap between them they even tended to hire out Greek Mercenary armies. )

This is exactly what China has over Russia (oh and numbers even though it would be kind of nightmarish to try and make use of this) Superior tech, Superier equipment and their training should be on the same level

its a massacre for the exact same reason Thermopylae went so bad- one side pound for pound is superior to the other and in this case in all things numbers included

haha I didn't say it was 3 mil, I said something like that I was using an example. I know that but they were out numbered and the persians just kept coming. They wear out numbered. ANd they had the Imortals THe fighters for the persians that when killed would easly be repleaced. THe greeks also should have had another group tp help them but they ditched them. But we arn't talking about that.


Russia I know they were strong but. Money versus how much someone will give up to win. It can differ.

To be honost who wins realisticly all depends on everything that goes on and stratigy. One reason we had some trouble in Nam was the Gorilla stratigy.

[Sakura+Sasuke=Awesomness]

China!

[The Immortal Watch Dog]

Originally Posted by Sakura+Sasuke=Awesomness

China!

I'm glad your posting in the BG's and all but can you please articulate more in your posts?

Originally Posted by Shisko Shi

haha I didn't say it was 3 mil, I said something like that I was using an example. I know that but they were out numbered and the persians just kept coming. They wear out numbered. ANd they had the Imortals THe fighters for the persians that when killed would easly be repleaced. THe greeks also should have had another group tp help them but they ditched them. But we arn't talking about that.

I know it's just the three million number comes from Herodotus the first Historian, the problem with him however is that he was a massive, massive liar and a fraud

As to the Persians, again they weren't really outnumbered- The Spartans and their allies fought Battles where they may have been outnumbered by a few dozen or a hundred or so per battle for the first two days and given how badly armed and armored the Persians were this numeric edge really had little meaning.

Those allies didn't ditch them either on the second day after the fighting Leonidas ordered them to leave because he knew the Persians were going to discover the back way into the pass and slaughter them all and because of that he opted to not sacrifice well trained soldiers from the neighboring city states

and regarding the immortals again- every Immortal was a highly trained crack Persian trooper from the aristocracy of the empire- they had the money and resources to field good equipment (compared to the rest of the Persian Army) and were extremely well trained

the Immortals were recruited from the nobility yes but those who were reserves to replace fallen Immortals served in other units (many of whom were days or weeks away from the hot gates) when the Immortals suffered the causalities they did at the gates the Persian Emperor had to draw up replacements from everywhere to fill in the gaps. These are vital troops taken from their main units or other duties and that is a very costly affair that can weaken your over all forces

now you may think us discussing this is off topic but the examples are perfect for our little debate here. the Chinese have better equip and tech and too make matters worse also numbers (though its going to hurt them badly to call them all up and Russia maybe able to simply out last them) The Chinese can do what the Greeks did. Their terrain can kinda let them dictate where any troop based incursions are going to happen

hold them there and bleed them

conversely mobilizing their enormous population might cripple the Chinese and the Russians maybe able to do what the Persians did every time the Greeks invaded


keep losing battles until it simply becomes too expensive for the enemy to continue conquering.

The Russians are very good at this too they used to amazing effect against the French and later the Nazi's


Russia I know they were strong but. Money versus how much someone will give up to win. It can differ.

Originally Posted by Shisko Shi

To be honost who wins realisticly all depends on everything that goes on and stratigy. One reason we had some trouble in Nam was the Gorilla stratigy.

Guerrilla not Gorilla lol but yeah that is true

at the same time Viet Nam and why it went down the way it did is wayyy too complicated to get into in this thread.