One Of The Biggest Questions Asked.

[Jinchiruuki]

Is a Utopia possible for this world?

Many people wish, hope and pray for a world without problems, conflict and tragedy. However, when arguing this I find many peoples words not very convincing on the subject.

Reason I say this is because of science.

For there to be light, there must be darkness.
For evil to exist, good must exist to have it be compared to.
For there to be right there must be wrong.
For any negative energy, there is a countering positive energy.

So, what would you argue? Is a Utopia possible? If you think so, explain how such a thing would come to be.

[e710]

I diffidently don't see world peace anytime soon. But you have to be grateful in a time in which we live there is not great war. Yes you can say the War on Terror, and I am grateful for all the soldiers who are fighting that war and who gave their lives, but when you look at the numbers compared to other wars its not even close. There will always be that minority(I don't mean racially I mean in terms of ideas and beliefs) who will try to cause problems and you have to stop corrupt people like that from getting in power but it is hard in some areas. America tries to make a world were there is no one corrupt in a powerful position and they do a pretty good job in my opinion, yes there is a corrupt leader in Iran, North Korea, and other places. But the key thing is no matter how bad some people can look from an region or country you can't generalize the whole population like that. It cause hate on both sides like the one video on Youtube that smashes Islam I guarantee you it cause more people to become terrorist and only made more people hate America and other superpowers.

[Saiyan]

Originally Posted by Jinchiruuki

Is a Utopia possible for this world?

Many people wish, hope and pray for a world without problems, conflict and tragedy. However, when arguing this I find many peoples words not very convincing on the subject.

Reason I say this is because of science.

For there to be light, there must be darkness.
For evil to exist, good must exist to have it be compared to.
For there to be right there must be wrong.
For any negative energy, there is a countering positive energy.

So, what would you argue? Is a Utopia possible? If you think so, explain how such a thing would come to be.

You can make your own.

Follow the law, don't get into trouble.

The rest falls in place.

[Bacon]

One person's utopia is another person's dystopia.

[Ninja Pink]

No.
As long as humans exist, there will always be some sort of conflict.

[Souret]

Humans and naturally selfish and desperate to evolve and often desperate for power. So long as humans still exist it is not possible. So long as living organisms exist there will be conflict between species. Utopia is a dream for those who do not want to face reality.

[Shinagami]

Complete good destroys just as much as mass chaos, so even if we were able to achieve it, which I don't think we can as human beings, it would eventually become corrupt and tear itself apart. But like I said, as we are humans and therefor selfish and greedy creatures, I don't think a utopia will ever be possible.

[Noctis Arashi]

It's human nature to breed conflict, and a Utopia is merely a delusion created out of said human nature to defy itself.

[CrackFat]

After putting a lot of thought into it, I have come with the best answer to date;

no.

[BMC1994]

In my opinion its impossibruh and will remain that way forever. We can only approach infinitely close to that utopia but we will never completely reach it.

(am i the only one who doesnt consider humans evil in nature :s)

Originally Posted by e710

I diffidently don't see world peace anytime soon. But you have to be grateful in a time in which we live there is not great war.

There are plenty of wars happening right now at this moment just because they arent there were you live doesnt mean there arent any wars somewhere else.

[JLI2infinity]

Originally Posted by Jinchiruuki

Is a Utopia possible for this world?

Many people wish, hope and pray for a world without problems, conflict and tragedy. However, when arguing this I find many peoples words not very convincing on the subject.

Reason I say this is because of science.

For there to be light, there must be darkness.
For evil to exist, good must exist to have it be compared to.
For there to be right there must be wrong.
For any negative energy, there is a countering positive energy.

So, what would you argue? Is a Utopia possible? If you think so, explain how such a thing would come to be.

Those premises don't exactly sound "scientific." And confusing philosophy with science is a common and sometimes dangerous mistake.

Originally Posted by Saiyan

You can make your own.

Follow the law, don't get into trouble.

The rest falls in place.

Right because the law makers always create legislation with out best interest at heart If by "law" you meant moral imperatives then some of them are subject to debate but I guess I understand. However, I'm pretty sure there's an entire field of study called criminology dedicated to understanding why people break the law in the first place, and there are several cases where it's because the law fails them.

Originally Posted by Bacon

One person's utopia is another person's dystopia.

Too broad sweeping of a statement here.

Originally Posted by Ninja Pink

No.
As long as humans exist, there will always be some sort of conflict.

If you start of assuming that premise then of course there won't be utopia. It'd be like if everyone assumed flight to the moon was impossible. And how are you defining conflict here, it is extremely likely that humans will always have a difference of opinion, but conflict often implies some deeper struggle resulting in loss for a specific party.

Originally Posted by Souret

Humans and naturally selfish and desperate to evolve and often desperate for power. So long as humans still exist it is not possible. So long as living organisms exist there will be conflict between species.

Again with these radical premises outlining all of humanity. Selfishness is not always a bad thing, in some ways it lets you better understand your own needs and desires so you can express them to others. If others understand that expression it may lead to empathy which can be the foundation of selflessness.

How are you using the word "evolve" here by the way?

Utopia is a dream for those who do not want to face reality.

Quite the pessimist aren't we? Something tells me that your life hasn't been so horrible that you are qualified to make that statement. Objectively no one can make that statement until we have a clear definition of what we mean by utopia.

TBH this thread is one of the biggest questions asked but it's not "Can we reach utopia?" it is "What is humanity's goal?" which I guess can also be turned into "What is the meaning of life?"

Originally Posted by Shinagami

Complete good destroys just as much as mass chaos, so even if we were able to achieve it, which I don't think we can as human beings, it would eventually become corrupt and tear itself apart. But like I said, as we are humans and therefor selfish and greedy creatures, I don't think a utopia will ever be possible.

Complete good "destroys" I'm not quite as sold on the diction of members in this thread. I see equivocation fallacy everywhere.

If "complete good" becomes corrupt then it is no longer "complete" good. Also I'm not exactly comfortable with how you're toting the words good and evil here, as if they are some grand isolated forces controlling humanity en masse, and not an organic continuum affecting our every day lives.

Again selfishness may be necessary for broader understanding. Like I said before it is possible for selfishness to lead to selflessness, therefore it stands to reason that can also leads to greed, but it's circumstantial.



In response to this thread, I think I agree with the utilitarian idea of utopia which is a world with the maximum amount of pleasure, and minimum amount of pain for everyone. Now in an actual scientific statement, natural systems are not perfect (perfection in this case meaning 100% efficient in terms of what the researcher wants to measure). If the universe we live in cannot physically yield everything we want than of course we won't reach maximum pleasure.

So in my opinion our only goal should be to avoid the baseline of maximum pain. If we are as far away from that as possible then in my opinion we are living in utopia. But of course if you look at the world we live in today and all the avoidable pain it's clear that this is not the case. Doesn't mean it's not possible.

[Vivi]

Originally Posted by Jinchiruuki

Is a Utopia possible for this world?

Many people wish, hope and pray for a world without problems, conflict and tragedy. However, when arguing this I find many peoples words not very convincing on the subject.

Reason I say this is because of science.

For there to be light, there must be darkness.
For evil to exist, good must exist to have it be compared to.
For there to be right there must be wrong.
For any negative energy, there is a countering positive energy.

So, what would you argue? Is a Utopia possible? If you think so, explain how such a thing would come to be.

If we talk about a Utopia of World Peace it's the end of history.

[Jinchiruuki]

Originally Posted by Saiyan

You can make your own.

Follow the law, don't get into trouble.

The rest falls in place.

I have made my own to a degree.

Originally Posted by Bacon

One person's utopia is another person's dystopia.

Hm.

Originally Posted by Ninja Pink

No.
As long as humans exist, there will always be some sort of conflict.

So would it be safe to say, humans should cease to exist?

Originally Posted by Souret

Humans and naturally selfish and desperate to evolve and often desperate for power. So long as humans still exist it is not possible. So long as living organisms exist there will be conflict between species. Utopia is a dream for those who do not want to face reality.

Well said.

Originally Posted by Shinagami

Complete good destroys just as much as mass chaos, so even if we were able to achieve it, which I don't think we can as human beings, it would eventually become corrupt and tear itself apart. But like I said, as we are humans and therefor selfish and greedy creatures, I don't think a utopia will ever be possible.

Well said as well.

Originally Posted by Noctis Arashi

It's human nature to breed conflict, and a Utopia is merely a delusion created out of said human nature to defy itself.

It's animal nature to breed conflict. To exist is to breed conflict. One of the main reasons for one animal to exist is to be consumed or consume another animal.

Originally Posted by CrackFat

After putting a lot of thought into it, I have come with the best answer to date;

no.

Riveting tale!

Originally Posted by BMC1994

In my opinion its impossibruh and will remain that way forever. We can only approach infinitely close to that utopia but we will never completely reach it.

(am i the only one who doesnt consider humans evil in nature :s)



There are plenty of wars happening right now at this moment just because they arent there were you live doesnt mean there arent any wars somewhere else.

Word, and yes there has been a war that no one really talks about that has been going on for nearly 100 years. Aka the "Silent War".

Originally Posted by Vivi

If we talk about a Utopia of World Peace it's the end of history.

Agreed.

Originally Posted by JLI2infinity

Those premises don't exactly sound "scientific." And confusing philosophy with science is a common and sometimes dangerous mistake.

Philosophy is a science. It is the never ending cycle of questions and sought answers which defines what science is to a point. Not literally, but very close. Without philosophy, many scientists would not have gotten where they did.



Quite the pessimist aren't we? Something tells me that your life hasn't been so horrible that you are qualified to make that statement. Objectively no one can make that statement until we have a clear definition of what we mean by utopia.



TBH this thread is one of the biggest questions asked but it's not "Can we reach utopia?" it is "What is humanity's goal?" which I guess can also be turned into "What is the meaning of life?"

I wouldn't compartmentalize that a Utopia is the whole world's goal. Or if it is, then there could be too different meanings. A Utopia of good, or Utopia of Evil.

Meaning of life can only be answered by yourself for you. No one else can tell you.



Complete good "destroys" I'm not quite as sold on the diction of members in this thread. I see equivocation fallacy everywhere.



If "complete good" becomes corrupt then it is no longer "complete" good. Also I'm not exactly comfortable with how you're toting the words good and evil here, as if they are some grand isolated forces controlling humanity en masse, and not an organic continuum affecting our every day lives.

My perception is vastly different from yours, but it does not mean you are wrong and I am right, nor the other way around. I will say that you may have not seen what I have, and if you did then you would be able to understand what is meant by those words.




In response to this thread, I think I agree with the utilitarian idea of utopia which is a world with the maximum amount of pleasure, and minimum amount of pain for everyone. Now in an actual scientific statement, natural systems are not perfect (perfection in this case meaning 100% efficient in terms of what the researcher wants to measure). If the universe we live in cannot physically yield everything we want than of course we won't reach maximum pleasure.


Very well said, and I agree. That is my vision of a Utopia as well, though part of my childishness still holds a "hope" of a perfect one.


So in my opinion our only goal should be to avoid the baseline of maximum pain. If we are as far away from that as possible then in my opinion we are living in utopia. But of course if you look at the world we live in today and all the avoidable pain it's clear that this is not the case. Doesn't mean it's not possible.

However, we are nearing the maximum pain. All you have to do is see beyond illusions and read between the lines to notice this. The amount of tragedy in the world grows everyday by the second. 700 children die every 5 minutes, Global Markets are crashing due to inflation of a fiat currency, and wars have torn entire continents apart and continue to ensue. Though our current status may not be being reported as terrible, it is actually far worse than the Great Depression and WW2. These are just to list a few as well. So, since you have peaked my interest in your words, what would you do to reduce this pain or nullify it if possible?

In bold for you.

[e710]

Originally Posted by BMC1994

In my opinion its impossibruh and will remain that way forever. We can only approach infinitely close to that utopia but we will never completely reach it.

(am i the only one who doesnt consider humans evil in nature :s)



There are plenty of wars happening right now at this moment just because they arent there were you live doesnt mean there arent any wars somewhere else.

There has been a lot of civil war and unrest in Syria and neighboring countries in recent years. Also if you consider the situation in the Gaza Strip a war you can count that and the war on terror but besides those I don't know of any other.
Those conflicts are mostly just between two countries or a war within a country. Read in recent article that the death toll rose to 40,000 in Syria which is a lot but compared to the numbers in WW II or WW I or the Vietnam war there were millions dead and in was more serious than now a days.
What I am trying to say is it could be much worse and the world wide conflicts have calmed down since the past.

[JLI2infinity]

However, we are nearing the maximum pain. All you have to do is see beyond illusions and read between the lines to notice this. The amount of tragedy in the world grows everyday by the second. 700 children die every 5 minutes, Global Markets are crashing due to inflation of a fiat currency, and wars have torn entire continents apart and continue to ensue. Though our current status may not be being reported as terrible, it is actually far worse than the Great Depression and WW2. These are just to list a few as well. So, since you have peaked my interest in your words, what would you do to reduce this pain or nullify it if possible?

I'm sorry but I cannot agree with you. The world we live in today is very problematic, with a bunch of new issues but I cannot think of a better time to live in, as an African American, a scientist, student, and a young man.

I promise you going back to the 30's would mean a lot more of that pain you were talking about for a lot more people. The advancement in women's rights in the industrialized world is something especially important, because it also places pressures on developing nations to follow suit. Globalization thanks to the rapid boom in communications technologies and social networking is also bringing the world closer and closer together.

And the technology we have for harnessing resources is FAR more advanced than ever before. You asked me what I would do to reduce this pain. The first thing for me would be the effective distribution of resources. Now whenever someone opens with that people immediately think communism or socialism but we have SO much yet there are people with so little. The amount of food that goes to waste in this country alone is astounding. Smart crops and genetic engineering for agriculture need to stop being roadblocked, and we should also focus on alternative sources of nutrition like insects.

I like the premise behind Maslow's Hierarchy of Needs and I think by just completing the base of that pyramid for the whole world we'd be so much closer to that utopia. Setting up solid infrastructures for other nations would be my primary goal if I ruled the world so to speak. I think that if people have their physical needs met they can sort through the emotional ones on their own terms.

This would be the best possible test of human nature in my opinion. If we are all as dark, selfish, and cold as everyone in this thread suggests then humanity will fall apart of it's own accord but for some reason in my world where the massive inequalities between nations is on its way to repair, I don't see that happening.

Great thread by the way!

[Maikeru D. Shinigami]

I think this video brings up a solid point for a comedy show. Starting at 1:14.

[Naruto]

Utopia is impossible. You can't satisfy everyone's needs and wants.

For example:
Two guys in my school got in a fight. Each liked the same girl and wanted her. You can't have two of the same person, so they fought over her. IDK why they literally fought, but like I said you can't satisfy everyone's needs and wants. Maybe you can satisfy needs, but not wants.

[The Second Pornkage]

Utopia? A perfect society? I don't think one can exist in this world indefinitely, because every person's idea of perfection differs from every other person's in some way. Maybe I'm not qualified to say something like that, but that's what my experiences have led me to believe. Sure, some aspects many people could agree on (world peace, food and shelter for all, people of multiple cultures getting along without conflict, etc.), but as long as humanity is flawed in some way or fashion, or as long as one person's ideals differ from another's, no perfect society can be contemplated, let alone carried out.

Of course, that's not to say we can't achieve a state of peace and satisfaction. But what, then, would we do? Those who have never known war will develop different ideals, beliefs, ways of life. Their society will evolve further, or perhaps to our horror devolve into the society we know today. Naw, as long as there is one side of the coin, I think there'll be the other. Order/chaos, justice/injustice, peace/war, one can't completely overcome the other. One can be mashed to a state where it seems to have disappeared altogether; then, in an instant, it shows its face once again. I'll say right now that these are my own views at the moment. They stand on no solid ground, they bend to my whim, and they should always be taken with suspicion. Still, they're my thoughts, and I wanna get 'em out there.

By the way, a little chaos now and again isn't such a bad thing, is it?

[Maikeru D. Shinigami]

Originally Posted by The Second Pornkage

As long as humanity is flawed in some way or fashion, or as long as one person's ideals differ from another's, no perfect society can be contemplated, let alone carried out.

I'll say right now that these are my own views at the moment. They stand on no solid ground, they bend to my whim, and they should always be taken with suspicion. Still, they're my thoughts, and I wanna get 'em out there.

By the way, a little chaos now and again isn't such a bad thing, is it?

Wrong, one can actually disagree with someone else yet still accept their ideas or reach a compromise. Humans are greedy, selfish and unaccepting though. That's what makes that impossible.

No, you're right. Anyone who disagrees with you saying that world peace is possible, is wrong.

Yes, yes, it is. It is an abomination.

[Naruto]

Originally Posted by The Second Pornkage

Utopia? A perfect society? I don't think one can exist in this world indefinitely, because every person's idea of perfection differs from every other person's in some way. Maybe I'm not qualified to say something like that, but that's what my experiences have led me to believe. Sure, some aspects many people could agree on (world peace, food and shelter for all, people of multiple cultures getting along without conflict, etc.), but as long as humanity is flawed in some way or fashion, or as long as one person's ideals differ from another's, no perfect society can be contemplated, let alone carried out.

Of course, that's not to say we can't achieve a state of peace and satisfaction. But what, then, would we do? Those who have never known war will develop different ideals, beliefs, ways of life. Their society will evolve further, or perhaps to our horror devolve into the society we know today. Naw, as long as there is one side of the coin, I think there'll be the other. Order/chaos, justice/injustice, peace/war, one can't completely overcome the other. One can be mashed to a state where it seems to have disappeared altogether; then, in an instant, it shows its face once again. I'll say right now that these are my own views at the moment. They stand on no solid ground, they bend to my whim, and they should always be taken with suspicion. Still, they're my thoughts, and I wanna get 'em out there.

By the way, a little chaos now and again isn't such a bad thing, is it?

That's what makes Naruto (anime not me) so interesting is because there is conflict and chaos.

Plus, adding to what The Second Pornkage said:
There is no love without hate, no happiness without sadness.

Wait can anything exist without an opposite?
Without knowing sadness, you won't know happiness and vice versa.