BG convo #68 : It's just a jump to the left....

[Kakashi Hatake_Yamato]

I think he's an alright president overall. Kept the country together, ended slavery, etc. Would say he is a hero, I guess.

But from the South's view, not so much.
Slaves kept the plantations together and the plantation owners earned money. Without those slaves, the planations would fall apart. Slaves were a huge business to the South. With the end of slavery, many whites lost their jobs.

[Godaime Kazekage]

Originally Posted by Kakashi Hatake_Daphne Lu

I think he's an alright president overall. Kept the country together, ended slavery, etc. Would say he is a hero, I guess.

But from the South's view, not so much.
Slaves kept the plantations together and the plantation owners earned money. Without those slaves, the planations would fall apart. Slaves were a huge business to the South. With the end of slavery, many whites lost their jobs.

History is written by the victor...or so they say.

[TRcommander]

Yes he violated civil rights considering he suspended the writ of habeas corpus and imprisoned probably thousands of people - such as soldiers, protesters, and writers - illegally (well, he argued that the fact that habeas corpus was suspended made his actions legal, but of course that's a logical fallacy since he didn't have the legal right to suspend it in the first place). But regardless of whether or not he was allowed to, he did suspend it and dealt a huge blow to free speech and democracy.......but for the sake of reuniting the Union, I suppose you could say it was worth it, though it probably caused more suffering than was needed to go about the whole matter.

As far as freeing the slaves..........well the war was about reuniting the Union, not slavery, so it's not like the motives were completely pure. And the Emancipation Proclamation did diddly squat since it only applied to the states that had already seceded (and therefore weren't subject to Union law anyways). Slavery was still legal in the Union and border states, so it really didn't free anybody at the time. The main purpose was probably as punishment to the Southern states so that, as they were recaptured by Union forces, they could cripple the Southern economy by taking away the work force and prevent them from rising up again. Of course, even then, slavery still legally continued through things like indentured servitude and prison labor (making up reasons to arrest Black people was pretty common), and I don't believe Lincoln did anything about that.

-So the pros are that Lincoln reunited the Union and began paving the way to end slavery.
-The cons are that he went about it the wrong way, violated human rights, used ends to justify means, and ending slavery as punishment instead of for moral rights probably didn't help that much in the long-run since resentment is a powerful feeling.

[Throw Rasen-Shuriken]

Originally Posted by The Immortal Watch Dog

That last bit is epic

Abe Lincoln- did he violate a truck load of civil rights and commit war crimes? Or was he a hero?

Greatest president ever? Or deserving prison time? Or both?

TRS, wooster, daph, shika your thoughts?

Um..I'm not really the best person to ask about US Presidents, since I don't live there, I'm not sure on the things he done or anything. I could look him up but can't be too bothered in doing so.

[The Immortal Watch Dog]

Originally Posted by Throw Rasen-Shuriken

Um..I'm not really the best person to ask about US Presidents, since I don't live there, I'm not sure on the things he done or anything. I could look him up but can't be too bothered in doing so.

that's fine in fact I'd love the perspective of a fellow non American (live in the US but I'm argentine)

where you from?

in any case during the war he did stuff like suspend habeaus corpus and jailed a great deal of people who dissented with his agenda and protested openly against him violating their civil rights out the wazoo, he issued the emancipation proclamation when he more or less gave himself the authority to act but didn't really legally have it. He passed the 13th amendment freeing slaves using strong arming and patronage (soft bribing) ordered total war be applied by his generals against the confederacy (arguably his own citizens) which resulted in the destruction of their infrastructure and homes and wide spread starvation and the like

he also kind of dissolved what the US was in favor of an extremely strong centralized government

all this he did for a noble reason..and I'm not saying the man wasn't justified

but he may have broken a metric crapton of laws in the process and possibly committed war crimes too

[Shikamaru Nara]

So how are all of you faring with the slow forum loading times? I can't stand being on here.

[WishfulFairie]

Yeah..i got adblock on my chrome but the site takes forever to load on my Ipod

[Noctis Arashi]

Nothing has been slow in the slightest for me.

[TRcommander]

I'm at home in the country, so the Internet is always slow around here. Sucks, though, cause right after chrome stopped blocking viz for malware, it started up with bulbapedia, and I'm in the middle of bw2.

[Kakashi Hatake_Yamato]

yea. The malware page is gone for me too on chrome
But the page still loads at a horribly slow snail's pace

Anyways. My mom's birthday went well

[Throw Rasen-Shuriken]

Originally Posted by The Immortal Watch Dog

that's fine in fact I'd love the perspective of a fellow non American (live in the US but I'm argentine)

where you from?

in any case during the war he did stuff like suspend habeaus corpus and jailed a great deal of people who dissented with his agenda and protested openly against him violating their civil rights out the wazoo, he issued the emancipation proclamation when he more or less gave himself the authority to act but didn't really legally have it. He passed the 13th amendment freeing slaves using strong arming and patronage (soft bribing) ordered total war be applied by his generals against the confederacy (arguably his own citizens) which resulted in the destruction of their infrastructure and homes and wide spread starvation and the like

he also kind of dissolved what the US was in favor of an extremely strong centralized government

all this he did for a noble reason..and I'm not saying the man wasn't justified

but he may have broken a metric crapton of laws in the process and possibly committed war crimes too

I live in New Zealand, born and raised here, I'm not Maori though, I descended from the English Settlers that came here in 1850, well that's when they settled here in Christchurch at least, slightly earlier then that though, they actually settled in NZ, in some other parts of the North Island.

Well just from that you've said, seems he did what he could in the current situation that was before him and managed it how best he could, even though, just by the sounds of it, I wouldn't agree a lot with how he dealt with it and possibly, looking back, there is probably better ways to go about dealing with that situation, that was. In the end he was only one person and sometimes, it's hard to make the absolute best decision to go about everything, just to make everyone happy, in the end we do what we decide and think is right at the time or how best to solve the problem that lies before them, this is especially so with leaders, they have many decisions which will always have two sides usually, there will never be a 100% agreement with all decisions made by a leader, though really they should make decisions though that should be more highly favourable then not, nothing like 50/50 agree or disagree, at least should be a better percentage then only half to agree.

Originally Posted by Shikamaru Nara

So how are all of you faring with the slow forum loading times? I can't stand being on here.

I especially downloaded firefox when this first happened to get it's adblock, so things are fine for me now around here.

[Uchiha Sora]

These loading times :/ hard to post lol

[mirai colorles]

you know watchdog having read your proposed "BG rules", i cant help but notice you mention "honesty"...when the method you are proposing is in some ways not honest at all

giving how this section has been influenced since even 2009, such "rules" being put forth is not surprising. however the "honesty" part is a bit too much

[Godaime Kazekage]

I've got absolutely no problems with loading time-maybe it has to do with the fact that I wasn't on at all during the malware scare? In other news, people in the TB can be just as exhausting as the BG's. Trying to think of a way that I can better explain genetics to someone who has maybe never learned anything about it.

[Kakashi Hatake_Yamato]

happy new year~!

[Frost ninja]

Originally Posted by mirai colorles

you know watchdog having read your proposed "BG rules", i cant help but notice you mention "honesty"...when the method you are proposing is in some ways not honest at all

giving how this section has been influenced since even 2009, such "rules" being put forth is not surprising. however the "honesty" part is a bit too much

Then don't stay, leave and don't come back.
If you don't like the rules, no one is making you stay here and obey them.

[Shikamaru Nara]

Originally Posted by mirai colorles

you know watchdog having read your proposed "BG rules", i cant help but notice you mention "honesty"...when the method you are proposing is in some ways not honest at all

giving how this section has been influenced since even 2009, such "rules" being put forth is not surprising. however the "honesty" part is a bit too much

It was a mutual agreement that those rules were fine amongst BG mods.

[mirai colorles]

Originally Posted by Shikamaru Nara

It was a mutual agreement that those rules were fine amongst BG mods.

thats fine. they are just for formality anyways, as its not like new members are gonna bother to read them. in other words the posters that are already here are gonna hav'ta influence new members in a hands on manner (just dont get too pushy). this section really is not that active, but sometimes sections such as this that garner a small and steady community can really come into their own

[Kakashi Hatake_Yamato]

GNCE
Kakashi Sama~~~~~~~

[Shikamaru Nara]

You better make it up to me for voting all Kakashi. xD