Right to bear arms

[Obito]

Originally Posted by Ninja of Cao

The civilian ownership of guns is the same thing as the government asking for more murders. And all animals I eat are not killed by guns but by sedatives for a more humane and painless death. So you are incorrect; I am in no way dependent on guns. Animals can be slaughtered without a hunt, disputes can be won without wars, and you can defend yourself against an intruder without guns. I completely oppose the civilian ownership of guns, as do my government, and the common sense of humanity.
Violence solves nothing.

Not in every point of view of having a gun is dangerous, people who are sane and have a bigger belief to protect the one's they love, in THEIR hands, gun's are considered to be the tool of God's way of saying to bad people. "Sit down kid."

[Ninja of Cao]

Originally Posted by Shikamaru Nara

Disputes can't be won when there is war and one side doesn't have guns.
And that is true, about the sedatives. My research is outdated.

I think they still shoot rabid animals, though, which are a health hazard.

"The pen is mightier than the sword." With good politics, a strong military is unnecessary. You can always keep good relations with all countries of the world, stay neutral in close conflicts or ally with another nation of respectable military power.

The Social Democrats prohibited the use of guns for animal slaughter in 2003. Hunting is still allowed under short periods of time and only targeting certain animals, but ammunition can only be received in small numbers and only during the hunting season.

Originally Posted by Obito

Not in every point of view of having a gun is dangerous, people who are sane and have a bigger belief to protect the one's they love, in THEIR hands, gun's are considered to be the tool of God's way of saying to bad people. "Sit down kid."

No individual should need to protect their loved ones, because there shouldn't be any risk for them being hurt. Sweden usually has less than 100 murders every year, and it should be mentioned that 80% of these are commited by "your loved ones" for a variety of reasons. Only 4-5% of these murders are the results of someone breaking into your home.

[Shikamaru Nara]

I'm just going to stop now, because I don't like debating about the military with you.

[Ninja of Cao]

Originally Posted by Shikamaru Nara

I'm just going to stop now, because I don't like debating about the military with you.

Technically that was more politics than military, but point taken.

Though we live in a democratic world, meaning that we have to respect each other's opinions. But let's compare Sweden and Finland - a country that prohibits guns and a country that enables civilian ownership of guns, respectively. Despite a smaller population, there are more than twice as many murders being commited in Finland than in Sweden every year, which shows that gun ownership only causes more deaths than necessary. Would it not be better if no one had guns and no one needed guns?

[TRcommander]

Originally Posted by Obito

Someone who goes to college and studies for 4-8 years and gets approved by the board of education, is not an idiot,

Your argument fails because you're essentially claiming that having a college degree automatically makes someone not an idiot. There's plenty of ways for an idiot to get a college degree, not the least of which is cheating. So do you have some sort of empirical evidence that people with college degrees can't be idiots, or are you just assuming that college is some magical place that inherently makes people smart by virtue of its existence? Because as a college student, I can tell you from experience that there are a great many idiots here that are well on their way to graduating with various degrees.


Also, fyi, it's completely possible to get a bachelor's degree in less than 4 years, and (at least in my state) any bachelors degree qualifies you to become a teacher. So, going by minimum requirements, a better range would be 3-4 years.

I don't care if you had teachers who you saw in your eyes did a horrible job at being your teacher, maybe your learning ethicalities weren't able to be taught by the person doing the teaching.You calling your teachers, or teachers you've met that are idiots is just your biased opinion about teachers you probably didn't get along with, someone could say something totally different about how that teacher taught them.

Everyone has biases, mine is against idiots. Yours seems to be against people that insult idiots just because they happen to be a teacher. You should note that I'm not claiming that a higher percentage of teachers are idiots than other professionals, but that there are simply idiots everywhere and that the education profession isn't immune to them.

Sure, there are idiots in the world, teacher's who act like an idiot, but generally, to be called an idiot in a teaching profession, is to be teaching your students something that they're not required to learn,

I think you have this completely backwards. The standardized requirements for education are useless and atrocious and are doing nothing but holding some students back while giving little incentive for improving because it's not required. Good teachers realize this and teach above the requirements by focusing on skills like critical thinking, logical reasoning, objectivity, and other high-level cognitive abilities.

and teacher's can't help if the students don't want to learn anything that their teacher's are teaching, student's fault not the teacher's.

A lack of student interest has no bearing on whether or not the teacher is an idiot.

It's common sense, if someone were happy, they wouldn't go and do something so insane as to go into a school and murder 26-28 kids and teachers because he or she wasn't happy with their family? What? A person who's not happy with his family doesn't go into a school and do those horrible things, a person who's angry with his or her family would probably do terrible things to his or her family, not other families, your logic is wrong. Now, mentally, you have a point, someone screwed up mentally, have insane thoughts, that's a point I can agree with you.

Weird that you try to argue all that just to agree with me in the last sentence. But it seems like you didn't entirely get my point, which is that most of these mass killings are committed by people with severe psychiatric disorders, so their family happiness doesn't factor into it at all. Your logic only works for mentally fit people, but not many people that are mentally fit are going to be slaughtering children now are they?

[Obito]

Originally Posted by TRcommander

Your argument fails because you're essentially claiming that having a college degree automatically makes someone not an idiot. There's plenty of ways for an idiot to get a college degree, not the least of which is cheating. So do you have some sort of empirical evidence that people with college degrees can't be idiots, or are you just assuming that college is some magical place that inherently makes people smart by virtue of its existence? Because as a college student, I can tell you from experience that there are a great many idiots here that are well on their way to graduating with various degrees.

I guess idiots that go to college for 4-8 years and get their teaching degree and THEN, get approved by the board of education, are idiots, nice...

Everyone has biases, mine is against idiots. Yours seems to be against people that insult idiots just because they happen to be a teacher. You should note that I'm not claiming that a higher percentage of teachers are idiots than other professionals, but that there are simply idiots everywhere and that the education profession isn't immune to them.

Obiviously, someone who goes to college for 4-8 years to you AND is still an idiot, is an idiot.

I think you have this completely backwards. The standardized requirements for education are useless and atrocious and are doing nothing but holding some students back while giving little incentive for improving because it's not required. Good teachers realize this and teach above the requirements by focusing on skills like critical thinking, logical reasoning, objectivity, and other high-level cognitive abilities.

What does that have to do with teachers you know or so you say you know that are idiots? I merely said if kids don't choose to learn, that doesn't mean teachers are idiots.

A lack of student interest has no bearing on whether or not the teacher is an idiot.

I'm sure I said that to you.

Weird that you try to argue all that just to agree with me in the last sentence. But it seems like you didn't entirely get my point, which is that most of these mass killings are committed by people with severe psychiatric disorders, so their family happiness doesn't factor into it at all. Your logic only works for mentally fit people, but not many people that are mentally fit are going to be slaughtering children now are they?

Mentally fit people.. Sounds weird when you say it like that, no. People who are mentally STRONG, don't go around killing children. It's nature, if a bull is happy, why would he go charging something? If he's upset and angry, he's gonna try and put his horns into you.

[Shisko Shi]

@ Obito - It isn't the students fault if they can't learn. Our bodies and brains arn't ment to sit in a class room to learn. We learn better while moving. SO if you sit in a class room for 2 hours you wont learn as much as you would in the first 20 min. This has all been proven by scientist. Go read Brain Rules if you want to learn more about that. What you learn is based on what you are doing at the moment and and how much you want to learn. I have ADHD ad i will tell you it isn't easy for me. I tend to space out radomly and have a hard to controlling it. As for the teachs I never said they are stuiped. So don't assume at all based on what I said. You make good points, but everyone has been affected by the country. It isn't their fault. We also have the power to change it. the government hasn't done anything to make someone go and kill poor kids. Do what I had at my school. Random body searchs, with metal detectets in the schools. And fully trained security gaurds in the school.

[Shisko Shi]

Originally Posted by Obito

Mentally fit people.. Sounds weird when you say it like that, no. People who are mentally STRONG, don't go around killing children. It's nature, if a bull is happy, why would he go charging something? If he's upset and angry, he's gonna try and put his horns into you.

You just proved that government has nothing to do with it, but the poeple who can't seem to control them selves.

[Obito]

Originally Posted by Shisko Shi

@ Obito - It isn't the students fault if they can't learn. Our bodies and brains arn't ment to sit in a class room to learn. We learn better while moving. SO if you sit in a class room for 2 hours you wont learn as much as you would in the first 20 min. This has all been proven by scientist. Go read Brain Rules if you want to learn more about that. What you learn is based on what you are doing at the moment and and how much you want to learn. I have ADHD ad i will tell you it isn't easy for me. I tend to space out radomly and have a hard to controlling it. As for the teachs I never said they are stuiped. So don't assume at all based on what I said. You make good points, but everyone has been affected by the country. It isn't their fault. We also have the power to change it. the government hasn't done anything to make someone go and kill poor kids. Do what I had at my school. Random body searchs, with metal detectets in the schools. And fully trained security gaurds in the school.

Lol... tl:dr. I just scanned the whole thing, and.. I didn't know that stuff had anything to do with being smart or going into a school and go on a mass murdering spree.

[Shisko Shi]

Originally Posted by Obito

Lol... tl:dr. I just scanned the whole thing, and.. I didn't know that stuff had anything to do with being smart or going into a school and go on a mass murdering spree.

What the heck is "tl:dr."?


Also you clearly didn't do a good job I mentioned about safty to provnt shootings. This is The Right to Bear Arms not Mass murdering. Though the can be related.

[Bacon]

Too long didnt read

[Obito]

Originally Posted by Shisko Shi

You just proved that government has nothing to do with it, but the poeple who can't seem to control them selves.

Lol, I know the government had nothing to do with what people do, their choices are their own. I just wanted to know why you thought the government were to be blamed. I never said "the government is not to be blamed." you assumed because I asked you all those (lead-on) questions. But, government tells society what to do, if people don't agree with what they're told, I guess it's the people's fault, more or less, because the government TOLD them what to do...

[TheTrueMasterofIllusions]

I'm for civilian ownership of guns. With restrictions on who gets them.
Sorry, last time I checked most gun owners get theirs the legal way and have not ever killed or been prompted to kill someone because they were angry. Nor has the gun ever told them or prompted someone to pick it and kill someone or gotten up and shot someone. So no guns are going to cause more murders or allow murders to occur.
The problem is the society we live in. We can't change everyone in our society that is why we need something to protect ourselves with. Guns are the most efficient way to defend oneself because guess what? The police take 15 minutes to get to your door. In 15 minutes you could be dead or have been raped.
Having no guns around is not going to stop (or reduce) murders from occurring. Changing society is. Teaching kids to recognize signs, teaching them to handle stress, and making them responsible is.
People are going to find others ways to kill. Knives anyone?
Only delusional fools believe in Utopia where one knee jerk reactions solve everything.

[Shisko Shi]

Originally Posted by Obito

And taking out a man with a gun doesn't justify a TEACHER not being smart, that's irrelevant, and do you honestly believe the goverment doesn't have anything to do with people killing other people? That people in a society that's so messed up because the society is broke and people have to buy guns, rob people, and even kill people because their society isn't how it should be and you say the Goverment isn't to blame?

Yea I am sure you have it the other way around I said It ISN"T THE GOVERNMENTS FUALT, then you argued that is was. by the question above. So don't turn the tables on me.

You kinda said that guns shouldn't be owned because it 'causes death... So.. I don't know, I'm gonna let you decide weather or not that's relevant to what's being talked about as mass murdering.

Really? were did I say that? No I said we should have security in school, not take guns away. wereare you getting thing that i never said?

[TRcommander]

Originally Posted by Obito

I guess idiots that go to college for 4-8 years and get their teaching degree and THEN, get approved by the board of education, are idiots, nice...

Besides the part I edited in about how long it actually takes to meet the minimum requirements (3-4 years), you still haven't provided any evidence that suggests an idiot can't make it through any of the many colleges in this country. Again, simply attending college doesn't make someone inherently not an idiot any more, and there are many ways, such as cheating, to...well....cheat the system.

Obiviously, someone who goes to college for 4-8 years to you AND is still an idiot, is an idiot.

College can help fix idiocy for many people, but it doesn't always. Some idiots still get through. It's not like everyone that has a degree isn't an idiot and everyone that doesn't have a degree is.

What does that have to do with teachers you know or so you say you know that are idiots? I merely said if kids don't choose to learn, that doesn't mean teachers are idiots.

No, you said:

to be called an idiot in a teaching profession, is to be teaching your students something that they're not required to learn,

And I responded by explaining how that isn't true because it's the teachers that do teach things that go above the requirements that are generally the good ones.

Mentally fit people.. Sounds weird when you say it like that, no. People who are mentally STRONG, don't go around killing children. It's nature, if a bull is happy, why would he go charging something? If he's upset and angry, he's gonna try and put his horns into you.

You're trying to apply logic to mentally ill people, and that simply isn't possible. Someone with a severe psychiatric disorder isn't going to follow basic logic like that. Again, what you're saying is generally true for most people, but not for the people that are committing many of these crimes.

[Obito]

Originally Posted by TRcommander

Besides the part I edited in about how long it actually takes to meet the minimum requirements (3-4 years), you still haven't provided any evidence that suggests an idiot can't make it through any of the many colleges in this country. Again, simply attending college doesn't make someone inherently not an idiot any more, and there are many ways, such as cheating, to...well....cheat the system.

Cheating the system... I don't know what college's just let "idiots" cheat the system. Maybe you should explain what you mean more promptly, and I haven't given any evidence as to why idiots go to school and get degree's because, one, an idiot is someone who does stupid or subjected as someone who doesn't do what other people do in their point of view as being "smart".


College can help fix idiocy for many people, but it doesn't always. Some idiots still get through. It's not like everyone that has a degree isn't an idiot and everyone that doesn't have a degree is.

So an idiot who goes to college, does all the things he's suppose to do and gets his degree is an idiot? Maybe. People have different point of views to what an idiot is by the way, your's could be totally different from mine's.

No, you said:


And I responded by explaining how that isn't true because it's the teachers that do teach things that go above the requirements that are generally the good ones.

Lol, what? Good one's, there's now good teachers and bad teachers? MAKE up your mind.


You're trying to apply logic to mentally ill people, and that simply isn't possible. Someone with a severe psychiatric disorder isn't going to follow basic logic like that. Again, what you're saying is generally true for most people, but not for the people that are committing many of these crimes.

Right, you don't know that, I was stating based on what I ASSUME someone like that would do, now, you, seems like you KNOW how this happens, so why don't you tell me, are you ill mentally? Do you go around killing people? Hey, it's just that you write all this stuff down and it makes sense to a degree.. But do you really know if what you're saying are true or just you telling me something that you believe in.

[TRcommander]

Originally Posted by Obito

Cheating the system... I don't know what college's just let "idiots" cheat the system. Maybe you should explain what you mean more promptly,

I mean that it's entirely possible for someone to simply cheat their way through school, get degrees that they don't deserve, and then use those degrees to find jobs.

and I haven't given any evidence as to why idiots go to school and get degree's because, one, an idiot is someone who does stupid or subjected as someone who doesn't do what other people do in their point of view as being "smart".

I'll agree that terms like 'smart' and 'idiot' are relative and subject to opinion, but that's exactly why you can't simply say, "they're a teacher, therefore there's no possible way that they could ever be an idiot." Again, your entire argument seems to be based around the premise that being a teacher inherently means that a person can't be an idiot.

So an idiot who goes to college, does all the things he's suppose to do and gets his degree is an idiot? Maybe. People have different point of views to what an idiot is by the way, your's could be totally different from mine's.

I go by the definition in my dictionary, which is "an ignorant person. foolish or stupid." So yes, we probably have a different view of the word because being ignorant or foolish isn't the same as being bad at academics, so learning something like basic math or writing doesn't inherently cure idiocy, though being educated in general can help.

Lol, what? Good one's, there's now good teachers and bad teachers? MAKE up your mind.

Make up my mind about what? Good and bad are general descriptive terms that I used to make a generality, so it's not like it's a definitive label or classification system. I think you're trying too hard to find an argument where none exists.

Right, you don't know that, I was stating based on what I ASSUME someone like that would do,

And your assumption would likely hold true for the average person. Just not for people with a sever psychiatric condition, which is the topic under discussion here since those are the people committing most of these mass murders.

now, you, seems like you KNOW how this happens,

Know what happens? I'm just pointing out that you can't apply logic to people who, by definition, don't follow logical reasoning.

so why don't you tell me, are you ill mentally?

I don't have any legally recognized mental illness, nor do I believe I have any other condition that would significantly affect my ability to think, feel emotion, relate to others, or function normally in everyday society. So in other words, no, I'm not mentally ill.

Do you go around killing people?

No.

Hey, it's just that you write all this stuff down and it makes sense to a degree.. But do you really know if what you're saying are true or just you telling me something that you believe in.

I'm simply pointing out that your argument that "teachers inherently can't be idiots" is illogical. Other than that:

Yes, I know it's possible to cheat your way through college (or even into a job by lying about your education) because there are cases of it happening. And no there's nothing about the teaching profession that makes it immune to such things.

Yes, I know that it's possible to get a bachelor's degree in 3 years, and that's the minimum education requirement for teachers (at least in my state), so your range of 4-8 is grossly exaggerated.

Yes, I know that people with a mental illness, by definition, aren't thinking logically and therefore aren't subject to your notion that providing them with a "happy' family and society will prevent them from committing violent crimes. Again, you might be right for the average person, but not for these people.

[Obito]

Originally Posted by TRcommander

I mean that it's entirely possible for someone to simply cheat their way through school, get degrees that they don't deserve, and then use those degrees to find jobs.



I'll agree that terms like 'smart' and 'idiot' are relative and subject to opinion, but that's exactly why you can't simply say, "they're a teacher, therefore there's no possible way that they could ever be an idiot." Again, your entire argument seems to be based around the premise that being a teacher inherently means that a person can't be an idiot.



I go by the definition in my dictionary, which is "an ignorant person. foolish or stupid." So yes, we probably have a different view of the word because being ignorant or foolish isn't the same as being bad at academics, so learning something like basic math or writing doesn't inherently cure idiocy, though being educated in general can help.



Make up my mind about what? Good and bad are general descriptive terms that I used to make a generality, so it's not like it's a definitive label or classification system. I think you're trying too hard to find an argument where none exists.



And your assumption would likely hold true for the average person. Just not for people with a sever psychiatric condition, which is the topic under discussion here since those are the people committing most of these mass murders.



Know what happens? I'm just pointing out that you can't apply logic to people who, by definition, don't follow logical reasoning.



I don't have any legally recognized mental illness, nor do I believe I have any other condition that would significantly affect my ability to think, feel emotion, relate to others, or function normally in everyday society. So in other words, no, I'm not mentally ill.



No.



I'm simply pointing out that your argument that "teachers inherently can't be idiots" is illogical. Other than that:

Yes, I know it's possible to cheat your way through college (or even into a job by lying about your education) because there are cases of it happening. And no there's nothing about the teaching profession that makes it immune to such things.

Yes, I know that it's possible to get a bachelor's degree in 3 years, and that's the minimum education requirement for teachers (at least in my state), so your range of 4-8 is grossly exaggerated.

Yes, I know that people with a mental illness, by definition, aren't thinking logically and therefore aren't subject to your notion that providing them with a "happy' family and society will prevent them from committing violent crimes. Again, you might be right for the average person, but not for these people.

All of what you said, for the most part, I agree with you, but something stands out like, as fishy. When you said "getting your bachelors". I mean, today, lol, I go to UF and majoring in Bussiness Engineering, I'm gonna be in college for a long time to get my master's in that degree, I'm merely curious I mean, you SAID it, who wouldn't be curious, is there a way I get my master's degree like.. Say, in a year?

[Rasen_Chidori]

I don't see why random citizens need to own a gun. In Australia, it's very very hard to legally purchase a gun. You need to get a license for even the most basic firearm and to get a license, you need to be able to pass a police check AND provide evidence that you actually need a firearm in the first place. Basically, this means that unless you're a police officer, in the army or a security guard who requires a firearm, you're going to have a very hard time getting your hands on one legally. The only other exception is farmers who can own a rifle for culling pests in their crops.

We do have occasional gun violence here, but it's not a major issue because unlike in the US, some random loser can't walk into a shop and buy a gun because it's their 'right'. Gun violence is going to be a major issue in the US until the government gets the balls to change the law and revoke people's rights to own a weapon they don't need in the first place.

[TRcommander]

Originally Posted by Obito

All of what you said, for the most part, I agree with you, but something stands out like, as fishy. When you said "getting your bachelors". I mean, today, lol, I go to UF and majoring in Bussiness Engineering, I'm gonna be in college for a long time to get my master's in that degree, I'm merely curious I mean, you SAID it, who wouldn't be curious, is there a way I get my master's degree like.. Say, in a year?

Are you counting the time it takes to get your bachelors before you start your masters or just from the time you start your masters? Either way, it highly depends on your major; I would assume any type of engineering degree is going to take longer than a degree that a teacher would be going for, such as basic math/history/english/etc.

For teachers (and I know this for a fact because I have several family members and friends from 3 different states that are studying to become a teacher or have already started teaching) that it's entirely possible (and relatively easy compared to other degrees) to get those bachelors in three years. From there, a masters degree takes another 30-40 credit hours, so that's 1 more year. So to get a masters in education takes 1 year for just the masters and 4 years total. Of course, not everyone will make it through that quickly, but it's completely doable for those that wish to.

For me, I'm an accounting/finance double major, and it's going to take 4 years to get my two bachelors and 1 more year of a specialized program to get my masters of accounting. So that's 5 years total for me. My guess is that your degree (without really knowing much about it) would take a similar length of time.

Originally Posted by Rasen_Chidori

I don't see why random citizens need to own a gun. In Australia, it's very very hard to legally purchase a gun. You need to get a license for even the most basic firearm and to get a license, you need to be able to pass a police check AND provide evidence that you actually need a firearm in the first place. Basically, this means that unless you're a police officer, in the army or a security guard who requires a firearm, you're going to have a very hard time getting your hands on one legally. The only other exception is farmers who can own a rifle for culling pests in their crops.

We do have occasional gun violence here, but it's not a major issue because unlike in the US, some random loser can't walk into a shop and buy a gun because it's their 'right'. Gun violence is going to be a major issue in the US until the government gets the balls to change the law and revoke people's rights to own a weapon they don't need in the first place.

I agree. The problem now is that it's been so ingrained into our culture that change will take a very long time even if laws are finally passed. There are hundreds of millions of guns in the country already, and more will still pour in through the black market. It would take at least decades before guns became scarce, and in that time it's entirely possible that a few isolated incidents could cause the decision to be reversed.