2nd & 4th mizukage vs madara

[Hotarubi Hyuuga]

Originally Posted by 321zigzag3

2nd Mizukage's technique has a weakness based on large terrain.

If the range and power is enough regardless of distance shouldn't it hurt him?

Its not like the clam and 2nd mizukage are a kilometer away from their mirages.

Genjutsu is for 4th Mizukage.


Gaara's special sand tanked Joki Boi. Pretty sure MAdara's regular Susanoo can.



In other words you are shooting for the probability of this scenario as a chance for Madara to lose.

If I recall, the technique does not last forever. It only ends after the opponent is repelled, and it appears to be more of a short range jutsu.

OK then let's look at this shall we, if Madara tried to tank anything with Susanoo, 4th Mizukage with just use water mirror the block him while 2nd Mizukage uses genjutsu and attacks with Jokey boy.

[PrinceofPeace]

Agreed! Looks like we found our winner

[PrinceofPeace]

Originally Posted by 321zigzag3

2nd Mizukage's technique has a weakness based on large terrain.
whats the weakness?
If the range and power is enough regardless of distance shouldn't it hurt him?
Proof please
Its not like the clam and 2nd mizukage are a kilometer away from their mirages.

Genjutsu is for 4th Mizukage.
which the 2mK can release him from it. and its hard to get caught in genjutsu withing the mist

Gaara's special sand tanked Joki Boi. Pretty sure MAdara's regular Susanoo can.
but for how long. MAdara would not even see it coming.

Madara lost

[321zigzag3]

Originally Posted by Hotarubi Hyuuga

OK then let's look at this shall we, if Madara tried to tank anything with Susanoo, 4th Mizukage with just use water mirror the block him while 2nd Mizukage uses genjutsu and attacks with Jokey boy.

Right this is just one scenario.
How about this, Madara rushes and places Yagura under Sharingan genjutsu.
See?

Also Water Mirror is for those who is attacking.

Joki Boi is not likely going to break Madara's Susanoo especially if it goes bipedal.
In the end of the day the worst case scenario, Madara uses Perfect Susanoo.

Originally Posted by PrinceofPeace

Agreed! Looks like we found our winner

You should not declare victory prematurely.

Originally Posted by PrinceofPeace

Madara lost

How do you get the clam? Either you detect it and destroy it or try to destroy it but a really large area of effect attack.

Proof? It makes sense. You aren't going to argue for example the mist genjutsu is going to work against Swamp of the Underworld for example. Regardless of the mist, the Clam would sink because the range is just too big.

This really comes down to the Mist vs Sharingan.
Unfortunately it was never tested.

Madara wins. See I can do it to.


My point is Yagura lacks enough feats. 2nd Mizukage strongest is not the most effective agains Susanoo.

[PrinceofPeace]

Originally Posted by 321zigzag3

How do you get the clam? Either you detect it and destroy it or try to destroy it but a really large area of effect attack.

Proof? It makes sense. You aren't going to argue for example the mist genjutsu is going to work against Swamp of the Underworld for example. Regardless of the mist, the Clam would sink because the range is just too big.
no SotU here so whats your point?

This really comes down to the Mist vs Sharingan.
Unfortunately it was never tested.
it was tested by kakashi and Zabuza. and the mist is genjutsu and thick. The point is that Madara will not have a good vision to get his enemy in genjutsu

Madara wins. See I can do it to.
good job


My point is Yagura lacks enough feats. 2nd Mizukage strongest is not the most effective agains Susanoo.

so how does Madara win? Jokey boy would keep attacking susanoo. Susanoo does hurt the user afterall and it can not surivve forever

[321zigzag3]

Your scenario is understandable.

Joki Boi and Mist keeping MAdara at bay with Sanbi and Water Mirror.

However, again thats why I said the worst scenario comes, Perfect Susanoo.

However, keep in mind Madara defeated both Onoki and Muu without Perfect Susanoo.

Originally Posted by PrinceofPeace

so how does Madara win? Jokey boy would keep attacking susanoo. Susanoo does hurt the user afterall and it can not surivve forever

Clam Mist has great range but still the range is not forever. What if one attacks most if not all of the range.
Madara has two wide range katons after all.

Joki Boi is not something that attacks every second. There is a cool down time.

Madara has exceptional chakra even for an Uchiha and he is not Itachi. It won't be much of an issue with much greater skill and pain endurance than Sasuke.

[PrinceofPeace]

Originally Posted by 321zigzag3

Your scenario is understandable.

Joki Boi and Mist keeping MAdara at bay with Sanbi and Water Mirror.

However, again thats why I said the worst scenario comes, Perfect Susanoo.

However, keep in mind Madara defeated both Onoki and Muu without Perfect Susanoo.
when Madara fought those two it wass off-screen. We know no details about it so it is meaningless to bring it up. We do not know the conditions. Also PS is OOC for Madara I use we don't even know if he can sustain it since he was an edo which has interminable chakra at its disposal. So your argument is iffy

Clam Mist has great range but still the range is not forever. What if one attacks most if not all of the range.
Madara has two wide range katons after all.
whih does zero damage thanks to hydrofixation plus the 4mk can counter it with water mirror

Joki Boi is not something that attacks every second. There is a cool down time.
ok but that is still damage Madara is taking not k mention the pain from susanoo plus the 4MK could attack until joki boi is ready again

Madara has exceptional chakra even for an Uchiha and he is not Itachi. It won't be much of an issue with much greater skill and pain endurance than Sasuke.

That is because he was an edo. We do not know much about how he fights without edo form

[BMC1994]

Originally Posted by 321zigzag3

Right this is just one scenario.
How about this, Madara rushes and places Yagura under Sharingan genjutsu.
See?

Also Water Mirror is for those who is attacking.

Joki Boi is not likely going to break Madara's Susanoo especially if it goes bipedal.
In the end of the day the worst case scenario, Madara uses Perfect Susanoo.

I dont think yagura would be caught in genjutsu. If recall it corretly yagura was mentioned of one of the 4 people who can truly control a bijuu(hinting that he fully tamed it etc) by danzo.

[PrinceofPeace]

TBB that is all

[BMC1994]

yup even made a thread about it but unfortunately it got merged with like 3 others.

[PrinceofPeace]

so how does Madara win?

[321zigzag3]

Originally Posted by PrinceofPeace

That is because he was an edo. We do not know much about how he fights without edo form

Iffy argument maybe because we didn't see it but it still does not change that it occured. To be fair we don't know how regular Madara beat Onoki and Muu and he didn't show Perfect Susanoo at the time.

Yes yes the guy has oily water body. But wouldn't that actually make him more vulnerable to lets say fire?
As I said before Water Mirror seems to work best when an opponent is attacking usually close range, the mirrored versions don't go on forever either. They disappear after repelling.

Yagura does what? In the case against Perfect Susanoo, the Bijuu form will be overshadows by Madara or vulnerable to his Sharingan genjutsu.
I know he is a perfect host, but Tobi was able to genjutsu him regardless.




Just because he was an Edo doesn't mean his power drastically decreases.
He is still largely the same except he has limited chakra, no Rinnegan, No Mokuton but EMS.

Originally Posted by BMC1994

I dont think yagura would be caught in genjutsu. If recall it corretly yagura was mentioned of one of the 4 people who can truly control a bijuu(hinting that he fully tamed it etc) by danzo.

Yes that is true, yet Tobi was able to do it. Now to be fair we don't know how but he still did.

Madara is supposed to be the strongest Uchiha anyway.

[Hotarubi Hyuuga]

You see I understand what you are trying to say, but if Madara tried to rush in as you said water mirror is used for those who attack so defend himself he would use the Water mirror to make clone of Madara to block him with his own attack.

While this is going on 2mk can use his genjutsu and attack with Jokey Boy.

When Madara tries to use perfect Susanoo and attack 4mk uses water mirror to block with a perfect susanoo of his own or while Madara is blinded by the mist 4mk can turn into Sanabi or Sanbi whatever it's called and use TBB.

[PrinceofPeace]

Originally Posted by 321zigzag3

Iffy argument maybe because we didn't see it but it still does not change that it occured.
yeah as an EDO !!! Not in human form. Edo Madara>>>Madara. Edo Madara has ENDLESS CHAKRA. and would recieve NO PAIN from PS or any type of Susanoo
To be fair we don't know how regular Madara beat Onoki and Muu and he didn't show Perfect Susanoo at the time.
agreed

Yes yes the guy has oily water body. But wouldn't that actually make him more vulnerable to lets say fire?
naw. 2MK is just water but not joki boi. Plus Madara would not even know what is happening and 4MK can counter the fire with water mirror
As I said before Water Mirror seems to work best when an opponent is attacking usually close range, the mirrored versions don't go on forever either. They disappear after repelling.
not really proof on that but... no matter. 4MK can go bijju and tank it or TBB it away

Yagura does what? In the case against Perfect Susanoo, the Bijuu form will be overshadows by Madara or vulnerable to his Sharingan genjutsu.
I know he is a perfect host, but Tobi was able to genjutsu him regardless.
NO PS



Just because he was an Edo doesn't mean his power drastically decreases.
true... but he does not have endless chakra and he would recieve pain from Susanoo
He is still largely the same except he has limited chakra, no Rinnegan, No Mokuton but EMS.
that is a lot don't ya think?


Yes that is true, yet Tobi was able to do it. Now to be fair we don't know how but he still did.
we have to go by what we have seen bro

Madara is supposed to be the strongest Uchiha anyway.

ANd your point?

[321zigzag3]

Your best offensive options seems to dwell On TBB.

Never mind that Joki Boi weakenes Mizukage considerably.

Originally Posted by Hotarubi Hyuuga

You see I understand what you are trying to say, but if Madara tried to rush in as you said water mirror is used for those who attack so defend himself he would use the Water mirror to make clone of Madara to block him with his own attack.

Yes that if Madara chooses to go melee attack.
Recall he has ranged Katons.
He also has the War Fan for defense.

[/QUOTE]While this is going on 2mk can use his genjutsu and attack with Jokey Boy.[/QUOTE]

Susanoo.

Not to mention he has other MS jutsus.

When Madara tries to use perfect Susanoo and attack 4mk uses water mirror to block with a perfect susanoo of his own or while Madara is blinded by the mist 4mk can turn into Sanabi or Sanbi whatever it's called and use TBB.

Water Mirror seems to have a size limit. The one he created is human sized, which can't mirror Perfect Susanoo completely, only a tiny part.

Originally Posted by PrinceofPeace

ANd your point?

Like I said, Madara still has EMS and exceptional chakra. He was stated to have such by Tobi himself.

They are both made off oil and water.

What do you mean no proof? They dispelled after Naruto and KB was repelled. Are you denying Manga panel evidence?

Ok, we both have seen Madara beat Onoki and Muu without Perfect Susanoo off panel technically.

That Madara is the strongest Uchiha.

[Hotarubi Hyuuga]

Well on one point, we've haven't seen it copy anything that big, however, what it seems to do is copy the opponent and it's exact strength and then it counters them with he same move.

Remember it copied Golden Beast mode Naruto while he was suing Rasengon to counter him and cancel him out, so if probably could copy Madara while he's using Fire Style to cancel him out as well.

Now though I'm not sure if it can copy the entire Perfect susanoo, let go along with your theory of it only being able to copy a piece. In that Case he could use it to copy perfect susanoo's sword or maybe even just a piece of it to block him when he tries to attack.

[321zigzag3]

Originally Posted by Hotarubi Hyuuga

Well on one point, we've haven't seen it copy anything that big, however, what it seems to do is copy the opponent and it's exact strength and then it counters them with he same move.

Yes but notice the mirror size, its way to small. Even if it did copy. Either the Perfect Susanoo is human sized or I don't know what else to consider.

Remember it copied Golden Beast mode Naruto while he was suing Rasengon to counter him and cancel him out, so if probably could copy Madara while he's using Fire Style to cancel him out as well.

This is more reasonable but based on the usage of the jutsu it seems more a close range jutsu. The Water Mirror has to see you and send the clone out.

Now though I'm not sure if it can copy the entire Perfect susanoo, let go along with your theory of it only being able to copy a piece. In that Case he could use it to copy perfect susanoo's sword or maybe even just a piece of it to block him when he tries to attack.

Even if this occurs, it will not block it.

A casually unsheathing of the sword swing screwed kilometers of land and cut off two mountain tops.

[PrinceofPeace]

Originally Posted by 321zigzag3

Your best offensive options seems to dwell On TBB.

Never mind that Joki Boi weakenes Mizukage considerably.




Yes that if Madara chooses to go melee attack.
Recall he has ranged Katons.
He also has the War Fan for defense.
how can he attack melle when he can not see? And katon would be countered by mirror

While this is going on 2mk can use his genjutsu and attack with Jokey Boy.[/QUOTE]

Susanoo.

Not to mention he has other MS jutsus.
like what? How will it help


Water Mirror seems to have a size limit. The one he created is human sized, which can't mirror Perfect Susanoo completely, only a tiny part.
agreed... But it's OOC for Madara to use PS and it would be too much on his normal body!


Like I said, Madara still has EMS and exceptional chakra. He was stated to have such by Tobi himself.
ok but not PS
They are both made off oil and water.
no cuz just like sugeitsu 2MK can turn into water
What do you mean no proof? They dispelled after Naruto and KB was repelled. Are you denying Manga panel evidence?
of what?
Ok, we both have seen Madara beat Onoki and Muu without Perfect Susanoo off panel technically.
yeah but that was EDO Madara
That Madara is the strongest Uchiha.
ok... Well 2MK is the strongest hozuki and 4MK is the strongest mizukage. So yeah[/QUOTE]

How can Madara fight what he can not see

[321zigzag3]

Originally Posted by PrinceofPeace

While this is going on 2mk can use his genjutsu and attack with Jokey Boy.

And if Madara uses Susanoo it does nothing.

You have provided no counter to this.

like what? How will it help

Granted he has not shown Tsukiyomi or Amaterasu.

agreed... But it's OOC for Madara to use PS and it would be too much on his normal body!

Its not OOC if he finds no other option.

He used against Hashirama, so I don't see the problem.

no cuz just like sugeitsu 2MK can turn into water

Gaara stated that 2nd Mizukage was oil and water.

of what?

Water Mirror Clones dispelled immediately.

yeah but that was EDO Madara

No its was Regular Madara.

ok... Well 2MK is the strongest hozuki and 4MK is the strongest mizukage. So yeah

Strongest is a relative term. Madara's claim has more bearing in Narutoverse than they.

[PrinceofPeace]

What good is Susanoo? Madara would just be hurting himself after a while and Susanoo can not tank a TBB or Joki boy forever!

both of those MS jutsu's are USELESS when Madara can not see the foe

Madara respected and feared the GREAT HASHIRAMA. Madara is overconfident and woud not use it off the bat.
Plus we do not know the effects of it. Madara may not be able to use it cuz he
-does not have enough chakra.
-the toll is too much on his body

chp please. Prove he is oil/water.

yeah it disppels after it counters the threat

chp plz i need proof. But Madara did not use PS on 5 kages so why would he blitz it for 2?

true but its hype