Madara and Obito VS Hashirama. Who would win??

[scallanan]

Spoiler:

Madara and obito both have MANGEKYO SHARINGANS (in the case of madara, it is an eternal mangekyo). They DON'T have the rinnegan, as the fight is between madara (at the time of his fight against hashirama) and obito (at the time of the nine tails attack on the leaf). BOTH Madara and Obito are controlling the nine tails together, and have good co-ordination with attacks together. Obito has some wood style (in accordance with his skills during his fight against Minato), but Madara doesn't, despite him teaching Obito it later on. Obito has little knowledge of Hashirama's powers as it wasn't long after Rin's death when he attacked the village (so I assume not much was taught to him at this point except for kamui etc).

They are the conditions of the poll

[PrinceofPeace]

Since HASHIRAMA did not get any power boost and was near death after his fight then uchihas win. Tobi will soon warp HASHIRAMA

[scallanan]

Why would hashirama need a power boost? I don't remember him needing it in his fight against madara

[PrinceofPeace]

This is a STOMP!!!! Hashirama is outnumbered

[KunaiMaster]

I think Obito/Madara would win without either of them dying.
It was said that Madara was defeated by Hashirama but Hashirama was
almost dead after. With obito there aswell makes a huge difference compare
to when Madara fought Hashirama on his own. Obito can also make objects go through him without having to dodge them so he can dodge every jutsu Hashirama will use on him. Madara has eternal Mangekyou and can use Susanoo and Obito has mangekyou. Obito can also kamui objects away if he is about to get hit. Although it was said that Hashirama has better Medical ninjutsu than Tsunade I still think Obito/Madara would beat Hashirama.

[PrinceofPeace]

Whoever said HASHIRAMA would win I love you

[scallanan]

Originally Posted by KunaiMaster

I think Obito/Madara would win without either of them dying.
It was said that Madara was defeated by Hashirama but Hashirama was
almost dead after. With obito there aswell makes a huge difference compare
to when Madara fought Hashirama on his own. Obito can also make objects go through him without having to dodge them so he can dodge every jutsu Hashirama will use on him. Madara has eternal Mangekyou and can use Susanoo and Obito has mangekyou. Obito can also kamui objects away if he is about to get hit. Although it was said that Hashirama has better Medical ninjutsu than Tsunade I still think Obito/Madara would beat Hashirama.

Hashirama was able to use the regenerative jutsu that tsunade has, and he was better at using it too. After a few uses he would most likely have identified obito's weak spots. He knows madara's skills already from his last battle, so he can concentrate most of his time and energy on obito. That said, the duo would be exceptionally hard to beat and might give him little thinking time for strategies. Hashirama could potentially increase his time to think and plan by creating the dome defense he used against the kurama's tailed beast ball in ultimate ninja storm: next generation. It would be very hard to break through and could give him some time to think up a counter strategy, and we know hashirama has more intelligence than the likes of shikamaru and kakashi, so a plan could be formed quickly when needed.
Thinking about Madara though, I see it being very difficult for Hashirama to penetrate his complete susano'o. I wonder how he managed it back at the valley of the end, but I would have expected wood style jutsu not to break through Madara's defenses. There is also the skill that madara has of using susano'o with his clones, which makes Madara/Obitos attack force immensely strong.
Obito might get through the dome through kamui but I could see Hashirama already prepared inside his dome as well for this kind of surprise attack. Then by using his forest with lots of plants jutsu that excretes a gas that can't be inhaled, he could take out madara and obito, or at least weaken them enough to continue an attack against them.

This is a STOMP!!!! Hashirama is outnumbered

Outnumbered means nothing especially with shinobi of the past. We saw that third raikage could take on 10,000 ninja for 3 days and nights before getting killed. Madara vs 5 kage, except madara does have the rinnegan, the body of when he was in his prime, and wood style jutsu. But outnumbered doesn't mean a lot when it comes to shinobi of the past, who were obviously much stronger than kages of the present.

[JLI2infinity]

Originally Posted by scallanan

Hashirama was able to use the regenerative jutsu that tsunade has, and he was better at using it too. After a few uses he would most likely have identified obito's weak spots. He knows madara's skills already from his last battle, so he can concentrate most of his time and energy on obito. That said, the duo would be exceptionally hard to beat and might give him little thinking time for strategies. Hashirama could potentially increase his time to think and plan by creating the dome defense he used against the kurama's tailed beast ball in ultimate ninja storm: next generation. It would be very hard to break through and could give him some time to think up a counter strategy, and we know hashirama has more intelligence than the likes of shikamaru and kakashi, so a plan could be formed quickly when needed.
Thinking about Madara though, I see it being very difficult for Hashirama to penetrate his complete susano'o. I wonder how he managed it back at the valley of the end, but I would have expected wood style jutsu not to break through Madara's defenses. There is also the skill that madara has of using susano'o with his clones, which makes Madara/Obitos attack force immensely strong.
Obito might get through the dome through kamui but I could see Hashirama already prepared inside his dome as well for this kind of surprise attack. Then by using his forest with lots of plants jutsu that excretes a gas that can't be inhaled, he could take out madara and obito, or at least weaken them enough to continue an attack against them.





Outnumbered means nothing especially with shinobi of the past. We saw that third raikage could take on 10,000 ninja for 3 days and nights before getting killed. Madara vs 5 kage, except madara does have the rinnegan, the body of when he was in his prime, and wood style jutsu. But outnumbered doesn't mean a lot when it comes to shinobi of the past, who were obviously much stronger than kages of the present.

Hashirama's regen doesn't matter, this is common sense man. Hashirama was at the end of his rope once he defeated Madara the second time. Adding in an S class shinobi to Madara's said tilts a very delicate scale into Madara's favor. Just like if Mito hadn't been there Hashirama might not have been able to deal with Madara while suppressing the Kyuubi. Obito is too strong for you to just toss him into this fight. If anything he can just sit back and let it happen like it did before, then right before Madara loses he pops in to save him like he did with Sasuke. Then while at full strength he kills Hashirama who's on empty.

[PrinceofPeace]

How does Hashirama counter
-PS
-hit Obito in transparent mode
-kyubbi
-genjutsu
-amaterasu

[scallanan]

Originally Posted by JLI2infinity

Hashirama's regen doesn't matter, this is common sense man. Hashirama was at the end of his rope once he defeated Madara the second time. Adding in an S class shinobi to Madara's said tilts a very delicate scale into Madara's favor. Just like if Mito hadn't been there Hashirama might not have been able to deal with Madara while suppressing the Kyuubi. Obito is too strong for you to just toss him into this fight. If anything he can just sit back and let it happen like it did before, then right before Madara loses he pops in to save him like he did with Sasuke. Then while at full strength he kills Hashirama who's on empty.

Hmm, was Mito actually there at the fight? I had thought it was just Madara vs Hashirama back then. Hashirama was able to deal with the kyuubi using his wood style jutsu and later it was sealed inside Mito and she became it's first jinchuriki. I don't recall her ever supporting hashirama during it.
And yes, you're right throwing in obito was overdoing it, however I'll still bring you back to the point about obito not being that strong yet. Maybe I misread something, but I think Obito had just gained the powers he had vs minato at the time, and wasn't very advanced at using them. Minato hit obito with a rasengan and defeated him quite quickly back then. It was only a matter of the right timing to counter his intangible jutsu. If I'm not mistaken he found out about rin's death, had just gained those new powers, along with his MS (since both obito and kakashi awakened it the day of Rin's death), and then decided to destroy konoha a while later. There's even speculation about whether or not obito was still a child or a man against minato, since time hadn't passed very long before obito decided to attack konoha.

How does Hashirama counter
-PS
-hit Obito in transparent mode
-kyubbi
-genjutsu
-amaterasu

Ok, sorry what's PS?

hit obito in transparent mode - as explained above it's a matter of timing. Yes hashirama has to deal with both at the same time, but obito's skills were far better later on in the manga than they were against minato. We saw him retreat vs minato quite quickly, and it just showed he hadn't mastered his new found powers just yet. It's a matter of if obito attacks, counterattack when he becomes tangible. Just like minato had done. I think obito also said to minato back then something like "I'll be back again when I'm restored to my full self". It showed he was still weak after half of him being crushed

kyuubi - Hashirama's would style was exceptionally powerful at restraining the kyuubi as mentioned many times throughout the series. His powerful wood style jutsu would suppress the kyuubi and hold him down while then being able to seal it or fight in peace against madara and obito.

genjutsu - Yes this is one I hadn't thought of. What was madara's genjutsu like? What was obito's genjutsu even like? We see little examples of it throughout the series. Hashirama obviously has a way to counter genjutsu or his victory against madara previously would never have happened. There aren't really any examples I can use to prove hashirama's ability to cope with genjutsu. But you have to agree that if he could beat madara with an EMS then he can certainly counter genjutsu cast by them (maybe with the exception of itachi's tsukuyomi or shisui's kotoamatsuki).

Amaterasu - Also little detail about how he could counter amaterasu. We know hashirama has speed, but I'm sure it isn't fast enough to dodge amaterasu like A did. Perhaps he blocked amaterasu with wood style barriers just like gaara's sand. All i know is that hashirama has a huge database of knowledge on other jutsu, and he defeated madara once, so countering amaterasu was obviously something he was able to do. I'm more concerned about obito's new powers that madara didn't have back in the valley of the end. That and obito's bit of knowledge on wood style jutsu

[PrinceofPeace]

That's a lot of assumption there bud. I think you lack the proof of how HASHIRAMA beats genjutsu n Amaterasu

[scallanan]

Originally Posted by PrinceofPeace

That's a lot of assumption there bud. I think you lack the proof of how HASHIRAMA beats genjutsu n Amaterasu

I guess it is a lot of assumptions, but aren't we all assuming that a character will do this and that during a fight. It's not like we can predict the outcome in any way. But that said, finding valid proof and feats is the best way to debate something like this, but its very difficult to find the proof. All we really know of hashirama is of his fight against madara at the valley, and that is only from what we were told. We have more knowledge about madara and obito's powers as we were able to witness some of their fights.
Well all I'm really trying to say is that Hashirama defeated Madara long ago. Now how in any way was that possible without him being able to counter genjutsu, which plays a vital role in any uchiha fight?? Please explain

[PrinceofPeace]

Originally Posted by scallanan

Ok, sorry what's PS? Perfect Susanoo

hit obito in transparent mode - as explained above it's a matter of timing. Yes hashirama has to deal with both at the same time, but obito's skills were far better later on in the manga than they were against minato. We saw him retreat vs minato quite quickly, and it just showed he hadn't mastered his new found powers just yet. It's a matter of if obito attacks, counterattack when he becomes tangible. Just like minato had done. I think obito also said to minato back then something like "I'll be back again when I'm restored to my full self". It showed he was still weak after half of him being crushed
but WHAT IS THE PLAN?!?! How is Hashirama going to time it right.
How does Hashirama escaped being warped by Tobi? Only Minato was fast enough to get out of the way of being warped

kyuubi - Hashirama's would style was exceptionally powerful at restraining the kyuubi as mentioned many times throughout the series. His powerful wood style jutsu would suppress the kyuubi and hold him down while then being able to seal it or fight in peace against madara and obito.
No doubt that Hashirama can beat kuubi and Madara... but this time it is Madara (with knowlwedge and powerboost), Kyubbi AND OBITO (a guy that hashirama knows NOTHING about)

genjutsu - Yes this is one I hadn't thought of. What was madara's genjutsu like? What was obito's genjutsu even like?
both need visal contact
We see little examples of it throughout the series. Hashirama obviously has a way to counter genjutsu or his victory against madara previously would never have happened.
There aren't really any examples I can use to prove hashirama's ability to cope with genjutsu. But you have to agree that if he could beat madara with an EMS then he can certainly counter genjutsu cast by them (maybe with the exception of itachi's tsukuyomi or shisui's kotoamatsuki).
Overall I will agree I guess.... Hashirama is not winning this anyway

Amaterasu - Also little detail about how he could counter amaterasu. We know hashirama has speed, but I'm sure it isn't fast enough to dodge amaterasu like A did. Perhaps he blocked amaterasu with wood style barriers just like gaara's sand. All i know is that hashirama has a huge database of knowledge on other jutsu, and he defeated madara once, so countering amaterasu was obviously something he was able to do. I'm more concerned about obito's new powers that madara didn't have back in the valley of the end. That and obito's bit of knowledge on wood style jutsu

I know how he dodged Amaterasu... I think but counter my other points for now
----------------
A TBB from kyuubi
Madara uses powerful katon
then Tobi sneaks up behind Hashirama and warps him away

*If Hashirama uses wood style Tobi can warp it away or Madara will burn it down*

Hashirama needs contact (physical) to release it out of genjutsu... Obito can protect kyuubi by warping Hashirama away

[scallanan]

Ok, sorry what's PS?
Perfect Susanoo
Figured that out hehe

hit obito in transparent mode - as explained above it's a matter of timing. Yes hashirama has to deal with both at the same time, but obito's skills were far better later on in the manga than they were against minato. We saw him retreat vs minato quite quickly, and it just showed he hadn't mastered his new found powers just yet. It's a matter of if obito attacks, counterattack when he becomes tangible. Just like minato had done. I think obito also said to minato back then something like "I'll be back again when I'm restored to my full self". It showed he was still weak after half of him being crushed
but WHAT IS THE PLAN?!?! How is Hashirama going to time it right.
How does Hashirama escaped being warped by Tobi? Only Minato was fast enough to get out of the way of being warped
Ok, well Hashirama could fire a barrage of attacks against

Spoiler:

Obito

causing him to change to an untangible form. While in this mode, he cannot warp anything or anyone. He could make sure that tobi stays intangible with a few wood clones helping him out, and the real hashirama would take on madara and kyuubi. While keeping him intangible, his wood clones could look for an opening, and strike tobi during the time he tries to solidify himself.

kyuubi - Hashirama's would style was exceptionally powerful at restraining the kyuubi as mentioned many times throughout the series. His powerful wood style jutsu would suppress the kyuubi and hold him down while then being able to seal it or fight in peace against madara and obito.
No doubt that Hashirama can beat kuubi and Madara... but this time it is Madara (with knowlwedge and powerboost), Kyubbi AND OBITO (a guy that hashirama knows NOTHING about)
Ok, madara does have knowledge of hashirama's abilities, but what power boost does he have? I said he was without mokuton and rinnegan, no edo tensei, so it's just his normal self. Hashirama knows nothing about obito, but obito also doesn't have much information on hashirama. There was no prep for the fight, so obito's only hope is to be told during the battle by madara what to do.

genjutsu - Yes this is one I hadn't thought of. What was madara's genjutsu like? What was obito's genjutsu even like?
both need visal contact
We see little examples of it throughout the series. Hashirama obviously has a way to counter genjutsu or his victory against madara previously would never have happened.
There aren't really any examples I can use to prove hashirama's ability to cope with genjutsu. But you have to agree that if he could beat madara with an EMS then he can certainly counter genjutsu cast by them (maybe with the exception of itachi's tsukuyomi or shisui's kotoamatsuki).
Overall I will agree I guess.... Hashirama is not winning this anyway
Right, so genjutsu is out of the question..

Amaterasu - Also little detail about how he could counter amaterasu. We know hashirama has speed, but I'm sure it isn't fast enough to dodge amaterasu like A did. Perhaps he blocked amaterasu with wood style barriers just like gaara's sand. All i know is that hashirama has a huge database of knowledge on other jutsu, and he defeated madara once, so countering amaterasu was obviously something he was able to do. I'm more concerned about obito's new powers that madara didn't have back in the valley of the end. That and obito's bit of knowledge on wood style jutsu
I know how he dodged Amaterasu... I think but counter my other points for now
Oh really? You must explain. I'd like to know
----------------
A TBB from kyuubi
Madara uses powerful katon
then Tobi sneaks up behind Hashirama and warps him away
Ok, now I may be wrong with this, but Hashirama could use Infinite Darkness Jutsu to blind madara/obito/kurama (if its possible to use this jutsu on multiple opponents). Otherwise, he could use his wood style to block the TBB, follow up with some water style to counter madara's fire style. When tobi appears behind hashirama and tries to warp him, fire anything really at him (from kunai to doing some more wood style) and make him intangible so he can't warp him. Wood clones created to attack tobi and keep him intangible, then use a wood dragon to hold down kurama (and suck its chakra). While kurama is being held down, use Wood Release: Advent of a World of Flowering Trees. This would stop tobi and madara from attacking for a short time period in which he could release kurama from the genjutsu and out of madara's control. Now it's 2 v 1, and his wood clones are already attacking tobi... Now, I dont know how madara was defeated in the end, so it's hard for me to explain what hashirama would do next to actually get passed PS or any of that, but from there on it looks like Hashirama has the upper hand.. Also, due to his precise chakra control, not much chakra was lost after all this.

*If Hashirama uses wood style Tobi can warp it away or Madara will burn it down*
Hashirama's wood style was of a different level. No warping is going to get rid of the amount of wood and forest made during the battle. That, and he could keep the pressure on tobi to stop him from becoming tangible again.. Also, water style will counteract the fire style from madara

Hashirama needs contact (physical) to release it out of genjutsu... Obito can protect kyuubi by warping Hashirama away
As said above

One last thing, Hashirama knew a lot about the techniques of the uchiha clan after many battles with them (and with all the scrolls etc hidden in the village about the clan's dojutsu). Obito is an uchiha and his powers are not very different. I'm sure kamui is a jutsu known by Hashirama, and he'd be able to counteract it above as explained

[PrinceofPeace]

Kyubbi can sense HASHIRAMA's thoughts so genjutsu is useless

[scallanan]

Originally Posted by PrinceofPeace

Kyubbi can sense HASHIRAMA's thoughts so genjutsu is useless

Ok, so get Madara and Obito, and take on nine-tails while they're under the genjutsu

[Crair Uchiha]

Madara and Obito, maybe Obito would die it really depends on his talents. We haven't seen all of them yet. So I'm not sure at the moment. However, despite Hashirama's strength, if they Madara and Obito had Kurama then I would 100% agree that Madara and Obito would win this round.

[PrinceofPeace]

This is such an unfair battle HASHIRAMA would lose but no du can beat those two alone

[scallanan]

Originally Posted by PrinceofPeace

This is such an unfair battle HASHIRAMA would lose but no du can beat those two alone

sage of the six paths :P

Originally Posted by Crair Uchiha

Madara and Obito, maybe Obito would die it really depends on his talents. We haven't seen all of them yet. So I'm not sure at the moment. However, despite Hashirama's strength, if they Madara and Obito had Kurama then I would 100% agree that Madara and Obito would win this round.

His talents are the same as when he fought minato. Kurama sounds like a huge advantage but hashirama was one of the few shinobi able to completely control tailed beasts. His wood style jutsu was particularly effective at slowing the beasts down and taking their chakra

[PrinceofPeace]

^debatable (not with his lil feats)