Masashi Kishimoto vs Akira Toriyama

[Vatanui AKA Pride]

Originally Posted by Devils Lawyer

^Touche but Op has been running yawn worthy tales lately too. The crack babies was a nice touch but other than that everything after the skip is not that interesting. It is interesting enough for a shounen though.

Fullmetal Alchemist would like to disagree.

[Devils Lawyer]

Thats not shounen jump

[WishfulFairie]

Fullmetal isn't even Viz-owned

[Devils Lawyer]

Also it barely stayed in the shounen category.

[Fukai Tsumi]

Originally Posted by The Immortal Watch Dog

err wait what/ Vegeta, piccolo and Gohan all had very well written character development that took more than single arc it was real growth for a random fighting manga that's a rare gem

Naruto has no character growth besides Gaara (who is amazing in that department) Kishimoto has warped his entire universe to fit his uchiha fetish even Toby's motivations turn out to be petty beyond all logic

and his partners were an emotional cripple and a egotistical lunatic with a messiah complex- no growth there..oh wait no pain had growth but it was poorly written and horribly executed

Vegeta is one of the most generic cookie-cutter cliche lancer characters in all of history. Piccolo becomes irrelevant after Namek. Gohan, I wil grant you, is a pretty cool guy.

You're missing all of the chacters I listed, but specifically Itachi. Yes, all of his character development was in retrospect, but retrospective or not it was damned good, not to mention unexpected. Sakura is pretty much an entirely different person at this point, when compared to early-on. Asuma had wonderful character development throughout his backstory and Shikamaru went through some slightly unoriginal, but nonetheless well executed development after their team's fight with Hidan and Kakuzu.

I agree the Uchiha focus is a bit much now, but compared to the repeated 'save earth from X' in DBZ it's the best thing since crumpets.

I don't know enough about Tobi or Pain to continue commenting on them.

[Saiyan]

Akira Toriyama, DBZ will always be the King of manga and anime.

[Azal]

Manga is

Originally Posted by WishfulFairie

Fullmetal isn't even Viz-owned

[The Immortal Watch Dog]

Originally Posted by Fukai Tsumi

Vegeta is one of the most generic cookie-cutter cliche lancer characters in all of history. Piccolo becomes irrelevant after Namek. Gohan, I wil grant you, is a pretty cool guy.

generic compared to what? quality fiction? or generic shounen manga?

in fighting manga he stands out as a paragon

Originally Posted by Fukai Tsumi

You're missing all of the chacters I listed, but specifically Itachi.

No you see Kishi jerking off to Uchihas and retconning the entire back story of his series to fap to the magical eyeball douchebag is not an example of character developement

it's an example of Author fiat..and that is amateurish writing

Originally Posted by Fukai Tsumi

]Yes, all of his character development was in retrospect, but retrospective or not it was damned good, not to mention unexpected.

That wasn't character development it was fan service and the editors should have shut Naruto down the moment it happened

Originally Posted by Fukai Tsumi

Sakura is pretty much an entirely different person at this point, when compared to early-on.

you're right instead of being fiery and passionate and growing she's emo she cries and she tries to bone Naruto to spare her boyfriend..

that's character development..the kind you find in fanfiction written by preteens

Originally Posted by Fukai Tsumi

Asuma had wonderful character development throughout his backstory and Shikamaru went through some slightly unoriginal, but nonetheless well executed development after their team's fight with Hidan and Kakuzu.

Asuma had no character development because we never saw it other than flash backs and weren't invested in it

Shika was good

Gaara is the only character in the entire universe with any meaningful character growth and Kishimoto totally ruined it with a crappy Oedipus complex

Originally Posted by Fukai Tsumi

I don't know enough about Tobi or Pain to continue commenting on them.

Tobi: my secret crush who hated my guts and crushed on my best friend got killed by my best friend..who was an elitist self important arrogant douchebag who preached elitism and war first human interaction second! I know! to honor her death and make a meaningful change in the world I'M TOTALLY GONNA SELL MY SOUL TO AN ANCIENT BIGOT AND BECOME EVERYTHING I PREVIOUSLY HATED ABOUT MY BEST FRIEND AND CREATE CANDY LAND ON EARTH BY MIND RAPING EVERY ONE TOTALLY CONTRADICTING MY ENTIRE CHARACTER WOOPPIIIEE!!

that's Tobi

Nagato is: durr my life sucks..I'm gonna totally throw myself in with this degenerate maniac and make everyone feel horrible and murder mad people because my life sucks! Then I'll randomly save everyone after hearing a speech by an autistic child preaching the views that I have opposed my entire life and twenty minutes prior leveled an entire city and killed fifty thousand people on an emo knee jerk reaction to hearing a similar speech by almost word for word the same by a big boobed middle aged royal!

that's Nagato/pain

neither are examples of good character development..they are a examples of mental retardation and a pompous talent-less writer who knows full well his audience is for the most part composed of vapid..idiotic twits who have never read anything that isn't garbage and will fanatically follow him and defend him no matter how horrible his story is.

Naruto isn't an example of good character growth at all it's an example of a mediocre writer being a decent business man who knows his audience..

[Godaime Kazekage]

Originally Posted by The Immortal Watch Dog

neither are examples of good character development..they are a examples of mental retardation and a pompous talent-less writer who knows full well his audience is composed of vapid..idiotic twits who have never read anything that isn't garbage and will fanatically follow him and defend him no matter how horrible his story is.

Wow...how eloquent. Seems like someone was a little butthurt after the series turned in a direction they didn't like and now throws a tantrum every time someone defends it. This is a forum dedicated to discussing the Naruto series, of course there are people who like it here and I'd be willing to wager that most of us are not "idiotic twits who have never read anything that isn't garbage". Get over yourself and grow up.

[WishfulFairie]

IWD, as much as I hate the Tobi being Obito and the reason behind it all, and how he effed up a bunch of amazing characters.... There is no reason to subject it to that much hate...

Edit: So you aren't the only one who thinks Sakura and Sasuke are dating X)

[Devils Lawyer]

Akira was less creative as far as the story went. He basically gave up on giving his villains any creativity. All they did was blow stuff up and laugh. Sad really considering db has some of the most hax abilities shounen characters possess. The verse consist of a race that can stop time by holding their breathe and has telekinetic abilities. Another race that can create a high level reality bender who can grant any wish you desire. Including eternal life and bringing back the dead. Magicians with the ability to mind control casual planet busters. Who can also create a creature that bends reality. Lets not talk about scientist. Akira skates over all of this and goes for an endless circle. Naruto may not be good but atleast it tries to have a plot. Db is a circle a never ending one.

[Vivi]

Neither can hold a remote candle to Ryukishi.

[Devils Lawyer]

Lots of relatively unknown manga better than both series. But that is mainly my opinion.

[Vivi]

Originally Posted by Devils Lawyer

Lots of relatively unknown manga better than both series. But that is mainly my opinion.

Umineko is very well known.
Probably mostly for being among the most complicated mystery works ever.

Spoiler:

This is just one of the countless possible truth and relatively the simplest.

[Vivi]

I don't think anyone except Ryukishi can come up with such impossible mysteries.

18 people on the Island.
9 are dead already.
The 10th one was murdered by the culprit in the Boiler room.Staked in the chest.
The other 8 have all absolute alibis.
The killer is among those 18.

Kanon (10th victim):
No suicide
No trap
Culprit and him were in one and the same room.
9 are dead.
8 have perfect alibis.

Or lets make it harder:
After 15 murders 3 were alive.
All 3 are innocent, 14 were dead.15th victim was killed by someone directly.
Culprit is among the 18 and it is possible for a human being to commit these murders.

Nanjo: 15th Victim.
14 are COMFIRMED dead.
He did not commit suicide.
Nanjo is not the culprit nor a killer.
Remaing 3 are comfirmed 100% innocent.

[Devils Lawyer]

Lol it sounds interesting. I might check it out when I get some free time.

[The Immortal Watch Dog]

Originally Posted by Godaime Kazekage

Wow...how eloquent. Seems like someone was a little butthurt after the series turned in a direction they didn't like

..What makes you think I ever liked Naruto in the first place? All I said was it has good story telling in the beginning- you don't actually have to be a fan of something to praise it

I happen to despise the chronicles of Narnia but they are some of the best high fantasy ever written no Kaze I give credit where credit is due

nice try though

Originally Posted by Godaime Kazekage

and now throws a tantrum every time someone defends it.

now that's funny actually no see this section was almost ruined by Naruto fans fapping their characters over Hulk

we invaded we brought quality we purged the fanboys..I' have no issue reminding everyone how terrible their favorite series is. It keeps this place healthy and free of the dregs that reduced this place to a cyberwide laughing stock it was two years ago

Originally Posted by Godaime Kazekage

This is a forum dedicated to discussing the Naruto series, of course there are people who like it here and I'd be willing to wager that most of us are not "idiotic twits who have never read anything that isn't garbage".

Originally Posted by Godaime Kazekage

Get over yourself and grow up.

Originally Posted by WishfulFairie

IWD, as much as I hate the Tobi being Obito and the reason behind it all, and how he effed up a bunch of amazing characters.... There is no reason to subject it to that much hate...

Edit: So you aren't the only one who thinks Sakura and Sasuke are dating X)

Yes there is..now I have never liked Kishimoto but he was at one point a good writer who produced good stuff..what he has done now is an atrocity and the fact that he flat out knows he can do no wrong in the eyes of his defenders and intentionally publishes slop makes it worse

like I said it's like he is the Japanese Jeph Leob only Leob became a horrible writer because his son died of cancer and author wanking superman helped him get over his sons death

Kishimoto has no excuse whatsoever Naruto could have been the saving grace of shounen manga and he torpedoed it because he realized the lions share of his fandom were sycophantic emo teens who would never actually hold him to any type of standard as long as they could get their weekly fix of "Sasukekoooon!!"

that' is worth hating because as an artist he debases himself and does it while harming his genre

[Roman55]

Not gonna lie...early Naruto was alright.

Now......uh, where's the latest chapter of JJBA?

EDIT: Huh, IWD already covered it. Welp see ya.

[The Immortal Watch Dog]

What roman said

Read JJBA read other quality manga stop feeding this hack

[Vivi]

Originally Posted by Devils Lawyer

Lol it sounds interesting. I might check it out when I get some free time.

Yeah do that.

Though, one quick note, its a manga that requires to pay attention to see the truth.

For example in Episode 4 chapter 20 Ange sees something in the boatsman display case.

Spoiler:

Spoiler:

You wouldn't be able to understand what Ange sees here unless you payed attention to something that was said and shown 900 pages ago.
And you gotta take it serious that you can't see it without love.