Nazi Germany vs the Empire of Japan

[Ninja of Cao]

I have already compared the two countries' most powerful naval vessels, the Bismarck and the Yamato, and I will compare more weapons later if I have time, but here is a comparison between the two nations.

Timespan: 1937-1945.
Scenario: Nazi Germany (at peace in Europe), decides to invade Japan to stop the rise of power by an Asian nation that might threaten German authority over the world.
Mutual goal: Complete destruction of all enemy forces.
German commander: Erwin Rommel
Japanese commander: Yamamoto Isoroku

Statistics Nazi Germany Empire of Japan
Population: 90,030,775 74,005,000
Soldiers: 18,200,000 6,096,000
Tanks: 50,439 10,000
Ships: 1,830 2,923
Aircraft: 30,000 50,000

What if these two military powers, the strongest in their regions, would have waged war against each other while the rest of the world stood by and watched? Would Hitler's forces be able to overwhelm the Japanese islands, or would the Empire of the Rising Sun defeat Europe's most powerful nation?
Use any knowledge you have about their respective weapons, as well as looking at the numbers above.
My own conclusion:

Spoiler:

This would be a very interesting conflict between two countries that were in fact allies. There are numerous factors that you must take into account, including the fact that Japan fought on from 1937 to August of 1945, while Nazi Germany surrendered much earlier in 1945 and having only fought the war since 1939. Of course Germany's tanks were superior, both in quality and numbers, but tell me one tank that can travel across the ocean? Japan has a superior navy (in quality and numbers), including a more numerous submarine force and the world's most effective naval air force. Japan also had superior aircraft if you exclude the German prototypes towards the end of the war. With these factors I see no way for Germany to utilize their advantage, as they cannot commence a naval assault against Japan without losing their entire navy in the process. Germany would only win a land war, nothing else.
Final result: Japanese victory

[Vivi]

To think that Hitler thought he can take on the entire world.

Japan just reveals their secret Gundams and own everyone.The End.

[The Immortal Watch Dog]

Japans navy is inferior to the Nazi's however they have Isoroku Yamamoto and he's pretty much head over heals above donetz and the like- assuming you erase their logistical issues (namely striking either without access to the panama canal is going to be lengthly affair and even if Japan had it..a heavily defended Atlantic is going to be nightmarish)

in terms of ground forces..again Nazi's have way superior generals and better resources

Yama's best bet to force a peace treaty is to never go on the offensive against German held assets but to use the Navy and his skill to keep the German forces far from Japan

if not either the Japanese try and break German stamina the Russian way which is something that'll pretty much ruin them as a nation or they'll eventually give up as both sides exhaust their resources

Nazi's have a problem of deployment so far from home..Japan has a problem of not having the resources to invade the Atlantic without it being a suicide

basically a costly and pointless war

also suggesting Germany would give a rats ass about Japans ethnicity in your scenario is silly - the idea of Aryans meaning white anglo saxon boys,....is idiotic the Nazi's were the ultimate weaboos holding Eastern culture in incredibly high esteem revering Tibet as the birthplace of all civilization

hell the Iran considers itself the birth place of modern Aryans and considering it was the capital of the Persian Empire and all

honestly.. the modern idea of what a Nazi was is hilarious Hitler would condemn all skinheads to the ovens. He was a demented social darwinist who considered those Eruopean peoples descended from an ancient group of people who more or less conquered pre-historic Europe - he considered them the superior race because they y'know basically overran and conquered the ancient world aside from the Basque and stuff

it had nothing to do with racial purity and more to do with that 'we are heirs of conquerors the scions of the ancient master races that crawled out of the east to build civilization' - the fact of the matter is when the war was ending he turned his back on the Aryan people and ordered Germany's destruction

simply put..Hitler cared nothing for what modern neo nazi's consider race..and at the end he deemed even his precious Aryans to be inferior - guy was essentially Makoto Shishio only without the horrible burns or super human powers

a hungry wolf who believed in survival of the fittest to a retarded degree

in any case Hitler would never raise arms against Japan for racial reasons he'd raise it because the geniuses in charge of the imperial army were lunatics..and because the only sane people in the Imperial nation..guys like Yama viewed Hitler nothing more than a thug and an animal and were far more likely to side with England and American than they were the Nazi's

especially after he made a pact with the Soviets (which he later betrayed)

[athoatho]

the major problem the faced Japan during ww2 was petrol supply, Germany had the same problem, but in the conditions mentioned above, I see Germany has easier access to oil supply

[The Immortal Watch Dog]

Originally Posted by athoatho

the major problem the faced Japan during ww2 was petrol supply, Germany had the same problem, but in the conditions mentioned above, I see Germany has easier access to oil supply

Japan I think has access to the oil reserves France or one of the other powers had

Japan does not..and has no way to invade the Atlantic in any efficient manner that wouldn't exhaust them

[WuTang]

The Fuhrer loses this one. Bottom line: YOU CAN'T INVADE JAPAN. Mongols tried to twice and failed twice. The US managed to take non-major islands Okinawa and Iwo Jima with significant casualties. Also the Nazis don;t exactly have a great track record with this kind of scenario. The German blitzkrieg, which is at least in concept similar to American firebombings of Japanese cities such as Tokyo, wasn't able to beat Britain even after repeated bombings of London. And I'd say that the Japanese would be even more resilient than the Brits. Also, I don't think Hitler would be able to do the sort of island hopping that the Americans pulled off. Hitler never really understood the concept of modern war and tended to think in broader more Napoleonic terms. Luckily (or rather unluckily), he had some rather bright generals to go along with heavy resources which allowed him a stranglehold on Europe. I do believe however, if the situation was reversed and Japan were to attack Nazi Germany, the Nazis would be able to win a war of attrition.

[WuTang]

Also there's a couple ten thousand miles of Soviet Union between Hitler and Hirohito.

[Devils Lawyer]

Japan back then was dangerous. Not because of military tech but their mindset. Not too long before that they were still chopping heads off in duels. They still kind of had a primitive mindset. Hence the word kamikaze. Japan back then was the original middle east. It took a hydrogen bomb to humble them. Germany would probably give up and go home.

[The Immortal Watch Dog]

Originally Posted by WuTang

The Fuhrer loses this one. Bottom line: YOU CAN'T INVADE JAPAN. Mongols tried to twice and failed twice.

yes you can and the Mongols would have succeeded if not for the Hurricanes and I wouldn't hold those invasions being repulsed as some great victory

the Kamakura Shogunate collapsed as a directly result of those victories - Pyhrric victories are not victories at all when they destroy your central government

Originally Posted by WuTang

The US managed to take non-major islands Okinawa and Iwo Jima with significant casualties.

after annihilating the Japanese navy destroying their empire piece by piece and forcing them into such a desperate position that they were arming civilians with spears

Originally Posted by WuTang

Also the Nazis don;t exactly have a great track record with this kind of scenario.

there's an entire generation of Russian men in the ground because of what it took to stop a Nazi advance]

Germany doesn't really have to worry about fortifying their territories in the Atlantic the IJN cant attack them- they can concentrate on blockaiding Japanese resources and slaughtering their people..

not to mention they have a huge ass amount of Chinese nationalists that they can mobilize and with Nazi help are going to be way more effective than they were OTL and they were more effective than the communists werre any way

Originally Posted by WuTang

The German blitzkrieg, which is at least in concept similar to American firebombings of Japanese cities such as Tokyo, wasn't able to beat Britain even after repeated bombings of London.

no they weren't very similiar the united states leveled Japanese and Germany cities not with lightening warfare but with unending industrial power

while the Germans can't do this they don't have too they can butcher and route all Japense holdings in Asia occupy their oil fields in western controlled parts of Asia wall up Japan and watch the country collapse and starve for several years before finally launching an enormous invasion

Originally Posted by WuTang

And I'd say that the Japanese would be even more resilient than the Brits.

umm what? the Japanese spirit was utterly broken months before the atomic bombs were dropped- they were a ruined shattered nation who lost everything and the fanaticism of the military and the imperial family kept them going


against Nazi brutality they'll fold

Originally Posted by WuTang

Also, I don't think Hitler would be able to do the sort of island hopping that the Americans pulled off. Hitler never really understood the concept of modern war and tended to think in broader more Napoleonic terms. Luckily (or rather unluckily), he had some rather bright generals to go along with heavy resources which allowed him a stranglehold on Europe. I do believe however, if the situation was reversed and Japan were to attack Nazi Germany, the Nazis would be able to win a war of attrition.

while Hitler was as stupid as you said..he had generals on the other hand were way beyond what the imperial Japanese Army had

Rommel has no land based equal in the IJA

[WuTang]

^All good points, but I still think home field advantage gives Japan the edge.

[The Immortal Watch Dog]

Originally Posted by WuTang

^All good points, but I still think home field advantage gives Japan the edge.

getting to Japan wont be easy moving the navy that far wont be easy

Yamamoto is also heads over heels superior to Karl Donitz - Yama took on some of the greatest naval minds since Lord Nelson and knowing he was going to lose put up a brilliant fight..Midway aside

Donitz by contrast was such a joke that when Hitler offered to split the world between the British Empire and the Reich he basically told Chamberlain he would not only allow Brittan to keep it's navy but wanted the RN to completely replace the German Navy and he wanted the RN to rule the over seas empire

basically the German navy sucked donkey balls in terms of leadership and the fact that Hitler had a huge amount of butthurt for it due to certain events during WW1 meant that it was pretty much crapped on

USN steamrolled what the British couldn't punk and sent it's best Admirals to the pacific to deal with the real threat

that's one advantage Japan has..internal strife and prejudice and a leader who was while okay and maybe even (on a really good day) a good commander... he's up against someone who was truly great and was able to match two truly great Admirals and for six months was able to beat down a bunch of really good ones

Karl's just not cutting it..he's about to be taken back to the academy and the German Navy with him

[Ninja of Cao]

Originally Posted by The Immortal Watch Dog

Japans navy is inferior to the Nazi's however they have Isoroku Yamamoto and he's pretty much head over heals above donetz and the like- assuming you erase their logistical issues (namely striking either without access to the panama canal is going to be lengthly affair and even if Japan had it..a heavily defended Atlantic is going to be nightmarish)

in terms of ground forces..again Nazi's have way superior generals and better resources

Yama's best bet to force a peace treaty is to never go on the offensive against German held assets but to use the Navy and his skill to keep the German forces far from Japan

if not either the Japanese try and break German stamina the Russian way which is something that'll pretty much ruin them as a nation or they'll eventually give up as both sides exhaust their resources

Nazi's have a problem of deployment so far from home..Japan has a problem of not having the resources to invade the Atlantic without it being a suicide

basically a costly and pointless war

also suggesting Germany would give a rats ass about Japans ethnicity in your scenario is silly - the idea of Aryans meaning white anglo saxon boys,....is idiotic the Nazi's were the ultimate weaboos holding Eastern culture in incredibly high esteem revering Tibet as the birthplace of all civilization

hell the Iran considers itself the birth place of modern Aryans and considering it was the capital of the Persian Empire and all

honestly.. the modern idea of what a Nazi was is hilarious Hitler would condemn all skinheads to the ovens. He was a demented social darwinist who considered those Eruopean peoples descended from an ancient group of people who more or less conquered pre-historic Europe - he considered them the superior race because they y'know basically overran and conquered the ancient world aside from the Basque and stuff

it had nothing to do with racial purity and more to do with that 'we are heirs of conquerors the scions of the ancient master races that crawled out of the east to build civilization' - the fact of the matter is when the war was ending he turned his back on the Aryan people and ordered Germany's destruction

simply put..Hitler cared nothing for what modern neo nazi's consider race..and at the end he deemed even his precious Aryans to be inferior - guy was essentially Makoto Shishio only without the horrible burns or super human powers

a hungry wolf who believed in survival of the fittest to a retarded degree

in any case Hitler would never raise arms against Japan for racial reasons he'd raise it because the geniuses in charge of the imperial army were lunatics..and because the only sane people in the Imperial nation..guys like Yama viewed Hitler nothing more than a thug and an animal and were far more likely to side with England and American than they were the Nazi's

especially after he made a pact with the Soviets (which he later betrayed)

I see no way for the Kriegsmarine to surpass the Imperial Japanese Navy, which was the second-largest and one of the best equipped naval forces in the world at the time. Germany could win with superior submarines, but in a ship-to-ship fight there is no way for Nazi Germany to defeat Japan. The only reason Japan was ever defeated at sea was a number of bad coincidences such as bad timing, disadvantageous weather and enemy espionage.

You are correct. But assuming that both nations are at peace in this scenario, Japan has a hold on the Chinese mainland which should contain enough resources to fuel the war effort. Imagine both nations at their largest possible size, but without any ongoing conflicts or rebellions.

I realize this; but I had to come up with a good reason for Hitler to wage a total war against Japan. Because I highly doubt that Japan would start this war. Hitler, however, did support China with weapons and supplies up until the late 1930's, so he was originally not as pro-Japanese as some people may believe.

Originally Posted by WuTang

Also there's a couple ten thousand miles of Soviet Union between Hitler and Hirohito.

True. So Germany either has to use the naval way, or negotiate a military access agreement that will enable them to march through the Soviet Union - a march that would ruin much of their army before they even reached Japan-occupied China.

Originally Posted by The Immortal Watch Dog

yes you can and the Mongols would have succeeded if not for the Hurricanes and I wouldn't hold those invasions being repulsed as some great victory

the Kamakura Shogunate collapsed as a directly result of those victories - Pyhrric victories are not victories at all when they destroy your central government




after annihilating the Japanese navy destroying their empire piece by piece and forcing them into such a desperate position that they were arming civilians with spears



there's an entire generation of Russian men in the ground because of what it took to stop a Nazi advance]

Germany doesn't really have to worry about fortifying their territories in the Atlantic the IJN cant attack them- they can concentrate on blockaiding Japanese resources and slaughtering their people..

not to mention they have a huge ass amount of Chinese nationalists that they can mobilize and with Nazi help are going to be way more effective than they were OTL and they were more effective than the communists werre any way





no they weren't very similiar the united states leveled Japanese and Germany cities not with lightening warfare but with unending industrial power

while the Germans can't do this they don't have too they can butcher and route all Japense holdings in Asia occupy their oil fields in western controlled parts of Asia wall up Japan and watch the country collapse and starve for several years before finally launching an enormous invasion



umm what? the Japanese spirit was utterly broken months before the atomic bombs were dropped- they were a ruined shattered nation who lost everything and the fanaticism of the military and the imperial family kept them going


against Nazi brutality they'll fold



while Hitler was as stupid as you said..he had generals on the other hand were way beyond what the imperial Japanese Army had

Rommel has no land based equal in the IJA

And Yamamoto had no naval based equal in the Kriegsmarine. The two "best" commanders of both sides would be Erwin Rommel and Yamamoto Isoroku. And comparing German Panzer divisions against the Imperial Japanese Navy and Imperial Japanese Navy Air Service is just mean... for as far as I know, a Tiger tank has less firepower than a destroyer at sea or a dive bomber in the air.

[The Immortal Watch Dog]

Originally Posted by Ninja of Cao

I see no way for the Kriegsmarine to surpass the Imperial Japanese Navy, which was the second-largest and one of the best equipped naval forces in the world at the time. Germany could win with superior submarines, but in a ship-to-ship fight there is no way for Nazi Germany to defeat Japan. The only reason Japan was ever defeated at sea was a number of bad coincidences such as bad timing, disadvantageous weather and enemy espionage.

umm no Japan was defeated at sea because it was hopelessly out produced and out gunned..and while Yamamoto was great he was facing two or three Admirals on his level one of which who was an absolute lunatic who had balls bigger than artillery shells

Yamamoto knew he was screwed from the get go don't go overhyping Japan


the fact that it had Submarines and used them way better than Japan ever did is why despite how inferior Donitz is..they actually have a chance at crippling the IJN long before any meaningful counter attack happens

Originally Posted by Ninja of Cao

You are correct. But assuming that both nations are at peace in this scenario, Japan has a hold on the Chinese mainland which should contain enough resources to fuel the war effort. Imagine both nations at their largest possible size, but without any ongoing conflicts or rebellions.

and there are many Chinese nationalists and warlords who would gladly side with the Nazi's

also a certain chubby radical in the mountains..

Originally Posted by Ninja of Cao

I realize this; but I had to come up with a good reason for Hitler to wage a total war against Japan. Because I highly doubt that Japan would start this war. Hitler, however, did support China with weapons and supplies up until the late 1930's, so he was originally not as pro-Japanese as some people may believe.

Honestly? I totally could see Japan starting it Yamamoto and his faction had no love for the Nazi's and a lot more for England and America

Originally Posted by Ninja of Cao

True. So Germany either has to use the naval way, or negotiate a military access agreement that will enable them to march through the Soviet Union - a march that would ruin much of their army before they even reached Japan-occupied China.

or they can negotiate a deal to use the Panama canal..refuel in Hawaii and then establish a beach head on say Formosa/Taiwan

certainly as great as Yamamoto is he has no way of taking it to the Atlantic without really getting bruised up

Originally Posted by Ninja of Cao

And Yamamoto had no naval based equal in the Kriegsmarine. The two "best" commanders of both sides would be Erwin Rommel and Yamamoto Isoroku. And comparing German Panzer divisions against the Imperial Japanese Navy and Imperial Japanese Navy Air Service is just mean... for as far as I know, a Tiger tank has less firepower than a destroyer at sea or a dive bomber in the air.

Because once German troops land in China it's over - because Germany can and will get it's assets over there? it's only a matter of how much time can Yama buy

fortunately this is opposition he can run circles around..unfortunately he's still in it up to his eyeballs

oh and Rommel wasn't alone the Nazi's had about ten competent Generals and another half dozen before they got sacked by Hitler..some of these guys were damn dangerous even to people like Bradley and Ike and Patton

the IJA conversely is made of up psychotic princelings who pass their time doing stuff like the rape of nanking.. and distressing poor old Yama

[Ninja of Cao]

Originally Posted by The Immortal Watch Dog

umm no Japan was defeated at sea because it was hopelessly out produced and out gunned..and while Yamamoto was great he was facing two or three Admirals on his level one of which who was an absolute lunatic who had balls bigger than artillery shells

Yamamoto knew he was screwed from the get go don't go overhyping Japan


the fact that it had Submarines and used them way better than Japan ever did is why despite how inferior Donitz is..they actually have a chance at crippling the IJN long before any meaningful counter attack happens



and there are many Chinese nationalists and warlords who would gladly side with the Nazi's

also a certain chubby radical in the mountains..




Honestly? I totally could see Japan starting it Yamamoto and his faction had no love for the Nazi's and a lot more for England and America



or they can negotiate a deal to use the Panama canal..refuel in Hawaii and then establish a beach head on say Formosa/Taiwan

certainly as great as Yamamoto is he has no way of taking it to the Atlantic without really getting bruised up



Because once German troops land in China it's over - because Germany can and will get it's assets over there? it's only a matter of how much time can Yama buy

fortunately this is opposition he can run circles around..unfortunately he's still in it up to his eyeballs

oh and Rommel wasn't alone the Nazi's had about ten competent Generals and another half dozen before they got sacked by Hitler..some of these guys were damn dangerous even to people like Bradley and Ike and Patton

the IJA conversely is made of up psychotic princelings who pass their time doing stuff like the rape of nanking.. and distressing poor old Yama

Japan had far more powerful surface navy than Germany, not only in numbers but also in quality. Of the Axis powers, Germany was described as the land power while Japan was described as the sea power - both countries also had formidable air power. Italy, however, didn't really have anything to match up with those two giants.

But now Italy has nothing to do with this comparison. As far as I know, the Kriegsmarine has no way of breaking the Japanese navy unless they can get a crushing victory out of coincidence rather than superiority, or if the Germans can utilize their submarines in large numbers and sink the Japanese battleships. I already made a thread comparing the Bismarck and Yamato, the two nations' mightiest battleships, and the Yamato was far superior to its German counterpart. However, if the Germans can land in Japan with a sufficient force, they will have good chances of victory - at least if they bring their superior tanks.

[The Immortal Watch Dog]

Yamamoto has no way of getting to Germany

Germany has several ways of getting to him and a submarine force that can mob his nastier assets..Yama can run circles around Donitz far longer than he could ever hope to against Nimitz but even an idiot is dangerous when he has the best toys- in this scenario Hitler can also buy plenty of hulls from the US- while Japan can do the same considering it's brutality in China caused an embargo they may not be so lucky

[Ninja of Cao]

Originally Posted by The Immortal Watch Dog

Yamamoto has no way of getting to Germany

Germany has several ways of getting to him and a submarine force that can mob his nastier assets..Yama can run circles around Donitz far longer than he could ever hope to against Nimitz but even an idiot is dangerous when he has the best toys- in this scenario Hitler can also buy plenty of hulls from the US- while Japan can do the same considering it's brutality in China caused an embargo they may not be so lucky

No hypothetical trades or increases in military power are allowed for this scenario: the two countries only have the weapons that they were proven to use in World War II, from 1937 to 1945.

[The Immortal Watch Dog]

without those hypothetical trades your scenario ends after about three battles with no clear winner

they simply can't muster the resources for such a distant conflict without negotiations for access to the panama canal and neither side has the industrial capacity for such a long range extended conflict

[Ninja of Cao]

Originally Posted by The Immortal Watch Dog

without those hypothetical trades your scenario ends after about three battles with no clear winner

they simply can't muster the resources for such a distant conflict without negotiations for access to the panama canal and neither side has the industrial capacity for such a long range extended conflict

Trade and military access are two completely different things

They may not produce any new weapons, the quality and quantity must be the same as in the real World War II. However, they may negotiate for military access through other nations if it is likely that the third party would approve.

[The Immortal Watch Dog]

then no matter what Yamamoto does he is merely delaying the inevitable sadly enough
and Rommel is going to take those thugs they had running the forces in China to school in a bad way

invasion of Japan breaks Nazi Germany but they are going to kill tens of millions of Japanese citizens in the worse massacre in the history of our species

[Ninja of Cao]

Originally Posted by The Immortal Watch Dog

then no matter what Yamamoto does he is merely delaying the inevitable sadly enough
and Rommel is going to take those thugs they had running the forces in China to school in a bad way

invasion of Japan breaks Nazi Germany but they are going to kill tens of millions of Japanese citizens in the worse massacre in the history of our species

But then again, marching through the Soviet Union would put the German army through great difficulties with uneven terrain, lack of roads and extreme cold before they reach Japan. Northern China (which Japan has occupied) is protected by mountains where Germany cannot utilize their tank superiority. And the Luftwaffe has no way to counter the Imperial Japanese Air Force in the early stages of the war; the Mitsubishi A6M Zero was the greatest aircraft in the world until somewhere between 1941-1942.