The Sailor Senshi vs. Z Senshi

[mosquito mex]

Originally Posted by The Immortal Watch Dog

I'm not particularly sure what's more insane the fact that you think you can use anime dub lines on a forum that defaults primary canon and throws out any feats that contradict those- or the fact that you're using Phenom level arguments...or the fact that you think statements matter here

or the fact that you just implied an anti dbz conspiracy online..

all of it is hilariously old school and delightfully trolltastic

anime dub lines? i haven't mentioned the sort. and if you bring up that piccolo thing, well the words hardly matter. what matters is that special beam cannon is way, way faster than the casual ki blast that hit the moon nigh instantly (disagree? i'l get the panel for you). and raditz evaded this like nothing. this is an example of combat synapses. and, would you agree that combat synapses get faster as the characters progress throughout the series? this is not power scaling, but very simple stuff. after all, it would be foolish to assume that a character such as frieza for example, is slower than raditz. also, you look way to into quantifiable feats, without realizing that the feats that cannot be quantified are more impressive as the series goes on. for instance, with goku vs frieza for example: these fighters are moving with MFTL combat synapses in bursts; however, you cant calculate this. you should not be calculating anything in fiction. but even raditz was moving with FTL combat bursts, evading attacks such as special beam cannon...but just because there is obvious reference here while the instances of goku vs frieza do not have them, than raditz is faster than, say, frieza? nonsense. this is some freeform stuff for you. but anyways, you look way too much into quantification

i haven't even posted any real thesis yet; those posts were just a very basic introduction. but in short, Dragon Ball is often downplayed due to these key issue:

-general fan confusion between the differences of AOE attacks vs compressed energy attacks

-general fan confusion between the differences of travel speed vs combat synapses

-general fan confusion between what actually matters in combat, and what doesn't


sure there are also the issues of people over abusing power scaling, strict numbers based quantification and the accompanying calculations, and of misinterpretations of feats (often via dishonest respect threads). and there are also issues of posters abusing their own interpretations of character portrayal, often without even being fully aware of the simple and efficient nature of character portrayal of what it even really is. for one thing, its not twisting character statements of overzealous power scaling. thats not the way to go about things, as isn't the overzealous pursuit of strict numbers based quantification (as i like to say to any posters that stand by their calculations, i throw this out there: calculate everything. thats right, calculate everything in any given verse. and behold the mess you will come out with. you will definitively demolish you entire method ie the method of strict numbers quantification and the accompanying creation of 'tier brackets'. rest assured, if you are honest about it, your number will be all over the place to the extent of making an absolute mockery out of your method) ...these issue are prevalent amongst essentially all supporters of any given fiction in the greater vs community

don't like to rant, but its all about the characters abilities and capabilities in combat, and note i emphasis in combat. even the poster Vivi made the mistake of confusing non combat instances as if they matter in combat. vs discussion comes down to how the characters fight, nothing else i will discuss those three issue in more context, once you respond. the rest was just general stuff; those three main issues are what i would rather discuss, likewise?

[The Immortal Watch Dog]

you used the anime dub line and not directly from the manga..Piccolo never said that and even if he did it would be nullified under the hyperbole rules that govern this forum

goku isn't passing massively hypersonic he's not going up against character that would be a threat to someone like Thanos

edit don't get me wrong I'm not a big fan of calculations and powerscaling seems very dubious to me but I have seen it abused mercilessly by DBZtards not used against the franchise like you say

[Devils Lawyer]

Meh the only thing I don't like is how people count those weak scenes of them floating. Yet so many other series get feat thrown out for some if those same reason. If you count a scene like that then why not count the 100+ scenes in db that was thrown out as outliers. I mean really all this crap is fiction. In the end all of this is majority opinionated .

[The Immortal Watch Dog]

Originally Posted by Devils Lawyer

Meh the only thing I don't like is how people count those weak scenes of them floating. Yet so many other series get feat thrown out for some if those same reason. If you count a scene like that then why not count the 100+ scenes in db that was thrown out as outliers. I mean really all this crap is fiction. In the end all of this is majority opinionated .

hey if you go by the anime and ignore the manga..you have reality raping..class 100's by the kid buu saga who can rearrange mountain ranges and land masses by punching each other...

Goku's energy output was felt across a small multiverse but one much bigger than the canon dbz one(which is four galaxies in a fish bowl)

GT messed it up..but all the same

manga tells a different story

[mosquito mex]

Originally Posted by The Immortal Watch Dog

you used the anime dub line and not directly from the manga..Piccolo never said that and even if he did it would be nullified under the hyperbole rules that govern this forum

goku isn't passing massively hypersonic he's not going up against character that would be a threat to someone like Thanos

that piccolo line does not matter, i just said it to zigzag as a quick general thing. don't look too much into it (if it is an anime dub line, than i made an error. i apologize. but that is besides the point i was making anywas; a statement is just something to give an idea...it should never be the basis of anything). however, are you gonna discredit dragon ball characters so quickly? simply put, special beam cannon is way, way faster than this:

a casual ki blast that reached the moon nigh instantly. and don't pull some "lack of timeframe" BS...if anyone tries to mention that "well, it could have taken a half an hour for all we know", your not looking at the clear picture. toriyama made this quite clear

oh, and now comes the old "inconsistency" argument. are you going to bring that up Immortal Watchdog? that DBZ characters can no replicate the early feats, later on in the manga? is that because they don't go about destroying planets later on? well, simply put, its the z senshi's entire purpose to prevent planets from being destroyed. and not to even mention they fight with compressed energy attacks. this casual ki blast is an AOE attack, and AOE attacks are weak in dragon ball. quite on the contrary to compressed energy attacks (which do not cause collateral AOE damage, and instead focus all the energy efficiently on killing the enemy), which are the z senshis most formidable attacks. but i will perhaps have to post a description of this soon. hold on

[Devils Lawyer]

@Iwd Thanos would curbstomp db and sailormoon combined half his powet. Better yet try he can do it using his intelligence alone. Thanos enemies are individuals capable of destroyung galaxies and characters who open time streams with their speed. No amount of mystical floating equates that.

[mosquito mex]

Originally Posted by Devils Lawyer

@Iwd Thanos would curbstomp db and sailormoon combined half his powet. Better yet try he can do it using his intelligence alone. Thanos enemies are individuals capable of destroyung galaxies and characters who open time streams with their speed. No amount of mystical floating equates that.

i'd just like to point out the phrase "its not about destroying galaxies, but about killing the being that destroy those galaxies". and what i mean by this, is that characters can destroy galaxies all they want, but if their opponent in one on one combat is faster via combat synapses and can attack with compressed attacks containing force beyond that of the durability of the "galaxy buster", than the "galaxy buster" will be killed by the character with the compressed attacks. these compressed attacks my not even be able to destroy a boulder with collateral AOE damage, but they are not intended to cause AOE damage. they are intended to kill. so in this manner, characters that can compress forces that could destroy galaxies or beyond into compressed attacks that may not even destroy a boulder in AOE, can destoy beings with "galaxy level durability"

in short, AOE can and often is deceiving when it comes to evaluating the lethality of fighters



ps this post does not pertain to any particular characters; it is just a concept...a concept that is rather prevalent fiction and reality combat, and thus in vs discussion

i have something to do now; i'l reply to any responses later on tonight

[The Immortal Watch Dog]

Originally Posted by mosquito mex

that piccolo line does not matter, i just said it to zigzag as a quick general thing. don't look too much into it (if it is an anime dub line, than i made an error. i apologize. but that is besides the point i was making anywas; a statement is just something to give an idea...it should never be the basis of anything). however, are you gonna discredit dragon ball characters so quickly? simply put, special beam cannon is way, way faster than this:

a casual ki blast that reached the moon nigh instantly. and don't pull some "lack of timeframe" BS...if anyone tries to mention that "well, it could have taken a half an hour for all we know", your not looking at the clear picture. toriyama made this quite clear

oh, and now comes the old "inconsistency" argument. are you going to bring that up Immortal Watchdog? that DBZ characters can no replicate the early feats, later on in the manga? is that because they don't go about destroying planets later on? well, simply put, its the z senshi's entire purpose to prevent planets from being destroyed. and not to even mention they fight with compressed energy attacks. this casual ki blast is an AOE attack, and AOE attacks are weak in dragon ball. quite on the contrary to compressed energy attacks, which are the z senshis most formidable attacks. but i will perhaps have to post a description of this soon. hold on

What inconsistency? We have the strongest attacks by Namek Saga freeza elites destroying continents- roshi's moon feat and the Piccolo one fall under the house rules regarding SM vs FL

but thank you for confirming you are the dupe of one of the old school dbz brigaders...with the pent up hostility

as for those arguments..Toriyama made his universe four galaxies in a fish bowl..a Rabbit or something lives on the moon..I don't need to make any claims for distance..or anything DBZU is smallscale and I really don't give a damn about what laws of physics do or don't govern it..and I wont waste my time on it

Originally Posted by Devils Lawyer

@Iwd Thanos would curbstomp db and sailormoon combined half his powet. Better yet try he can do it using his intelligence alone. Thanos enemies are individuals capable of destroyung galaxies and characters who open time streams with their speed. No amount of mystical floating equates that.

to be fair Thanos doesn't so much as beat them under his own personal power he more gets horribly prison raped by them and is somehow still able to stagger back to his feet

he's so dangerous because he's such a tough bastard he can survive showings and with prep one up those guys..but on his own..well he wouldn't have survived that Odin fight would be a good example

[Devils Lawyer]

Originally Posted by The Immortal Watch Dog

hey if you go by the anime and ignore the manga..you have reality raping..class 100's by the kid buu saga who can rearrange mountain ranges and land masses by punching each other...

Goku's energy output was felt across a small multiverse but one much bigger than the canon dbz one(which is four galaxies in a fish bowl)

GT messed it up..but all the same

manga tells a different story

Even in that manga you have a few feats that stand on the same ground as those space scenes. Granted they would only ve knocking on the lightspeed door if counted. Like the handful of moonbusting scenes. Those seem a bit more solid than random floating that happened just as rarely. It was just as much a difference from their known speed.

Also teleportarion and highspeed reaction us a sufficient weapon in the same level that get mauled over. As a matter if fact that is what Thanos uses.

[The Immortal Watch Dog]

Originally Posted by Devils Lawyer

Even in that manga you have a few feats that stand on the same ground as those space scenes. Granted they would only ve knocking on the lightspeed door if counted. Like the handful of moonbusting scenes. Those seem a bit more solid than random floating that happened just as rarely. It was just as much a difference from their known speed.

Also teleportarion and highspeed reaction us a sufficient weapon in the same level that get mauled over. As a matter if fact that is what Thanos uses.

I mean to be fair kid Buu's blast isn't ten times the power needed to destroy the earth..its something like thirty million times

you mean like being chased around a few thousand miles by energy blasts in the span of a fraction of a second type stuff for the Z guys?

[Devils Lawyer]

Originally Posted by The Immortal Watch Dog

to be fair Thanos doesn't so much as beat them under his own personal power he more gets horribly prison raped by them and is somehow still able to stagger back to his feet

he's so dangerous because he's such a tough bastard he can survive showings and with prep one up those guys..but on his own..well he wouldn't have survived that Odin fight would be a good example

I mean whatever equipment he gets would still fall under his own power. I mean if you don't count his arsenal. Then all he has is durability. Though I have made the same arguement about him. Which is why I always thought his rival the surfer is more powerful in the long run. It's just that the writers favor Thanos and give him what he needs.

[The Immortal Watch Dog]

ehh you think? Thanos punched Surfuer in the liver and the face and that almost killed him

Thanos ate a hundred lightyear explosion to the face with no damage but messed up clothing..Norrin can't even handle a multi solar system attack

[mosquito mex]

Originally Posted by The Immortal Watch Dog

What inconsistency? We have the strongest attacks by Namek Saga freeza elites destroying continents- roshi's moon feat and the Piccolo one fall under the house rules regarding SM vs FL

but thank you for confirming you are the dupe of one of the old school dbz brigaders...with the pent up hostility

as for those arguments..Toriyama made his universe four galaxies in a fish bowl..a Rabbit or something lives on the moon..I don't need to make any claims for distance..or anything DBZU is smallscale and I really don't give a damn about what laws of physics do or don't govern it..and I wont waste my time on it



to be fair Thanos doesn't so much as beat them under his own personal power he more gets horribly prison raped by them and is somehow still able to stagger back to his feet

he's so dangerous because he's such a tough bastard he can survive showings and with prep one up those guys..but on his own..well he wouldn't have survived that Odin fight would be a good example

you said it yourself: strongest attacks by namek saga destroying continents. actually, far less. most attacks do not even explode when they hit their opponents.you know why? they are using compressed energy attacks. these attacks are not intended to cause AOE collateral damage, they are intended to kill the enemy with minimal if not non-existent collateral damage. however, do not mistake it, these attacks are far more lethal than the AOE attacks in DBZ. so, if vegito shot a compressed energy ki blast that destroyed his opponent but did not even damage boulders, and saiyan saga piccolo destroyed a moon, which fighter is stronger? by your logic, piccolo. you literally just backed yourself into a corner as expected. i have done this to many posters

dragon ball characters in later saiyan saga and throughout the manga, utilize compressed energy attacks, that are far, far more lethal than any AOE attacks. plus, these compressed attacks to not cause collateral damage, a plus for fighters that fight for the sake of protecting planets would'nt you say? of course. so in short, AOE doesn't mean s**t in DBZ, and it don't mean s**t in combat.,.you know, the thing we call combat? thats all about compressed attacks and efficient killing

in 20 minutes of so i got something to do, but will probably be back on here in a few hours. but regardless, you walked yourself into a corner, and i have entire thesis's to elaborate on such concepts, and much more. so later on, i will provide some more specific elaboration on some key concepts, and i will provide as much of the manga as you will like, just know before you ask the question "where are you getting this from?", the awnser will be "the manga"




and just to make it clear once again, do not be fooled by flashy explosions, they are not indicative in the slightest of a characters potency in combat

[Devils Lawyer]

Originally Posted by The Immortal Watch Dog

ehh you think? Thanos punched Surfuer in the liver and the face and that almost killed him

Thanos ate a hundred lightyear explosion to the face with no damage but messed up clothing..Norrin can't even handle a multi solar system attack

You are thinking old Surfer. New surfer manipulated and absorb the crunch. He was capable of defeating two beings capable of going against Galactus. Meaning he can move beyond his normal power levels at any given time. Also surfer never uses his full arsenal. Like for instance his phasing capabilities which can neutralize physical blows. Then there is the fact surfer true speed opens time. Technically though you will never see it. Surfer can just get a grad start and crab into Thanos wr full speed. Way beyond a 100 light year punch. Thanos is a writer and fan favorite so I doubt we will ever see the surfer go all out with his abilities against Thanos.

[cnorwood]

Originally Posted by Devils Lawyer

Instant transmission at massively hypersonic levels .

stopped reading there, because you know damn well thats not true.

[Devils Lawyer]

^He can activate at hypersonic levels hence him activating it mid fight against cell. The technique itself is faster than lightspeed. Teleportation>speed. So what are you talking about?

[The Immortal Watch Dog]

Originally Posted by mosquito mex

you said it yourself: strongest attacks by namek saga destroying continents. actually, far less. most attacks do not even explode when they hit their opponents.you know why? they are using compressed energy attacks. these attacks are not intended to cause AOE collateral damage, they are intended to kill the enemy with minimal if not non-existent collateral damage. however, do not mistake it, these attacks are far more lethal than the AOE attacks in DBZ. so, if vegito shot a compressed energy ki blast that destroyed his opponent but did not even damage boulders, and saiyan saga piccolo destroyed a moon, which fighter is stronger? by your logic, piccolo. you literally just backed yourself into a corner as expected. i have done this to many posters

No actually I didn't since Fan theories aren't valid evidence

but by all means keep wasting everyones time with his regurgitated nonsense

simply put no one in the dbz universe is capable of taking on Herald level beings

also you can stop filibustering now no one likes tldr's

Originally Posted by mosquito mex

dragon ball characters in later saiyan saga and throughout the manga, utilize compressed energy attacks, that are far, far more lethal than any AOE attacks. plus, these compressed attacks to not cause collateral damage, a plus for fighters that fight for the sake of protecting planets would'nt you say? of course. so in short, AOE doesn't mean s**t in DBZ, and it don't mean s**t in combat.,.you know, the thing we call combat? thats all about compressed attacks and efficient killing

so basically a bunch of baseless speculation that isn't supported by canon

Originally Posted by mosquito mex

in 20 minutes of so i got something to do, but will probably be back on here in a few hours. but regardless, you walked yourself into a corner, and i have entire thesis's to elaborate on such concepts, and much more. so later on, i will provide some more specific elaboration on some key concepts, and i will provide as much of the manga as you will like, just know before you ask the question "where are you getting this from?", the awnser will be "the manga"

you're entire thesis is not accepted evidence on a feat based debate system

Originally Posted by mosquito mex

and just to make it clear once again, do not be fooled by flashy explosions, they are not indicative in the slightest of a characters potency in combat

kay meanwhile Sailor senshi rape this

Originally Posted by Devils Lawyer

You are thinking old Surfer. New surfer manipulated and absorb the crunch. He was capable of defeating two beings capable of going against Galactus. Meaning he can move beyond his normal power levels at any given time. Also surfer never uses his full arsenal. Like for instance his phasing capabilities which can neutralize physical blows. Then there is the fact surfer true speed opens time. Technically though you will never see it. Surfer can just get a grad start and crab into Thanos wr full speed. Way beyond a 100 light year punch. Thanos is a writer and fan favorite so I doubt we will ever see the surfer go all out with his abilities against Thanos.

Surfur can time warp as a herald are you sure it's speed based? he can do it on speed on sheer force of will

[Devils Lawyer]

Originally Posted by The Immortal Watch Dog

Surfur can time warp as a herald are you sure it's speed based? he can do it on speed on sheer force of will

It was explained that it was his speed. I remember he hit durok and took him for a ride to the future like that. He did it a few times in his time. It was a result explained to be an aspect from his speed.He never really hits those levels of speed though. Another reason whI think the surfer is underated.

[mosquito mex]

Immortal Watchdog, you keep on bring up phrases like "fan theories" and other veiled insults to Toriyama, as if your implying Toriyama never had this stuff in mind to begin with. Yes indeed Akira Toriyama implemented and portrayed the usage of compressed energy attacks throughout Dragon Ball, and this is a key aspect of the manga. after all, without compressed energy attacks, cosmic objects would be destroyed left and right, which is completely against what the z senshi is protecting. so, in DBZ especially, characters compress their ki attacks, and thus they only damage the opponent without causing collateral damage. also, these compressed ki attacks are far, far more powerful than AOE attacks (net energy to net energy), as the energy is compressed. its a pretty simple concept that something densely conpressed will hit with alot more force than something that wastefully disperses energy. but for example, lets say a fighter can destroy planets with AOE attacks; now with the same net energy, they can fire compressed energy attacks that may not even destroy boulders, but have the compressed energy equivalent of "planet busters", into a ki blast that has been compressed to the size of a beach ball. this compressed ki blast will be many, many times more lethal than any AOE attack, and will hit the enemy with far, far more force than any AOE attack. and in doing so, will not cause major, if any collateral damage.

so thus, dragon ball characters battle with ki blasts that may not cause AOE damage, but are far, far more lethal than AOE attacks that destroy planets of stars for instance. and thus these compressed ki blasts are far more lethal to beings that can withstand "planet busting" or "star busting" AOE attacks if you would actually observe the manga honestly and understand it, as opposed to just labeling everything as "inconsistent", you would understand this and how dragon ball characters fight and then there is the misunderstanding of combat synapses, and how they differ from travel speed. dragon ball characters battle with bursts, interchanging bursts of speed much like breathing. and with each breath, they can burst, and these bursts are MFTL as the manga progresses. travel speed is quite different, but even then the characters become faster. but as you should be well aware of, instances of travel have nothing to do with combat and that comes to the issue of people misunderstanding what actually matters in combat, key words "in combat". not a long distance race, not a weight lifting competition, but combat. and in combat, precision killing is all that matters, well, along with combat synapses of course. and it just so happens that when it comes to these elements of combat, dragon ball characters tend to excel

keeping these posts short as can be at the moment, but i have entire thesis's written about these issues and much more, that are intended to dispel the downplayed geared towards dragon ball, but even more than that they are intended to inspire the readers to read and observe fiction and real life, in a manner that is not warped and full of clutter, but in an efficient and natural manner and if you have any qualms with the few basic things i described to you, all of it can be backed up with the manga (and if you want to get into it, all of it can be backed up with many, many scans, and i have backed all of this up before). if you would like to get into an actually in depth debate, then i would be all for it. just have an open mentality as what i am bringing to the table is both genuine and prepared, yet for the etiquette of debate, i'd love to improvise








but for starters, i'm gonna give you a simple example of a compressed ki attack: tenshinhans shin kikoho. now, with your logic of "AOE tells all", then since shin kikoho only causes a small ditch, then duh tri beam must only be a "ditch buster". but of course, AOE does not matter. what matters is what the attack does to the opponent, as it is a compressed energy attack. but lets put if very simply: the energy that is compressed in shin kikoho, if tien wanted to use it differently ie in a AOE manner...if would be destroying large cosmic objects. so think of it as th energy required to destroy large cosmic objects, compressed in a ki attack the size of a beach ball that does not explode. instead of exploding, it just hits the opponent the with a dense force that is intended to destroy the opponent, without causing collateral damage. so by not wasting energy through dispersion, and having all of the energy hit the opponent efficiently, shin kikoho is just but one example of many in dragon ball, of a compressed energy attack that can destroy characters that have the durability to easily withstand AOE attacks that destroy large cosmic objects. and, not to even mention more net energy is put into these elite compressed energy attacks to begin with (as they are, you know, the z senshis most lethal attacks), so they are that, that much stronger even moreso

and rest assured any counter you have, i have likely already countered. but in short, AOE is not the way to gauge characters' lethality in battle; combat is generally all about precision killing, compressed attacks, and combat synapses. and this applies to far more than just dragon ball, but fiction in general and real life for that matter

[cnorwood]

Did someone really use the ftl raditz argument? Hahahahahaha please read the manga