Stark vs Barragan

[Souret]

Does Barragan have a limit to his protection, such as would the pressure of so many cero's break through it or is that immposible

[Sagepain]

^ Well, having thousands of bullets rained on you would still be less effective then a nuke right?

Soifons bankai was aged to nothing twice, the second being used at almost point blank range in an enclosed area by Multiple Kido Barriers yet was still aged. So range and power make little difference. I say little because iirc Barragan did indeed get a small injury though nothing that would inhibit his movements.

[Ba_bamBam]

Originally Posted by Noctis Arashi

No. Not nuff said. You don't know how debates work, do you? How in god's earth does "stark" win?

Only chance in hell he has is if he recognizes the danger at the very start and blitzes the crap out of Barragan before he can resurrect and kill him which he is capable of doing.
But, being Stark it's not gonna happen, he's way too lazy, I give this victory to Barragan.

Originally Posted by Blue Flame

If it's just base then starks ceros should be very strong. Yet, his release form...meh it's okay... Now that you tell me I guess you got a point there.

Again, the only reason why Stark's resurrection looked like... meh was because he was facing one of the strongest captains in current Soul Society Shunsui. Had he fought someone else it would've given a different impression.

[Souret]

Being Stark that's really likely to happen he may be lazy but he's not stupid like against the captains he knew he coukdn't win where as there is a chance that Barragans arrogence would give Stark the window he needs. Also lets not forget Lily and Stark split because they were so powerful everything that came near them died where Barragan claimed to be the king of aranccar and all his subjects were fine being near him so actually I'd say Starks Cero's weren't just fast but strong.

[Nigoyukai]

Respira's nature as a physical, tangible, gas makes it dispersable, no? The size of Starkk's explosions should be able to carry out that dispersing.

I also doubt that his Respira is fast enough to age away hundreds of Ceros being spammed at him at a speed that they're all practically bundled up together (not to mention each one destroyed a building).

Though, if they're both IC, I can't see Starkk winning this.

[BMC1994]

Originally Posted by Souret

Would the wolves survive the time thing though cause there not actually living or a set material cause you'd think the person Aizen made number 1 would be that cause he has the ability to win against all the other Espada.

Logically you would think that but ranks in shounen manga often contradict each other.
Like several members of akatsuki have more destrucitve power then its true leader tobi.

Hallibel the number 3 would get stomped by ulquiorra the number 4 if we go by feats. On top of that the ranking is inaccurate because of several factors not being considered like ulquiorras second release.

Originally Posted by Souret

Does Barragan have a limit to his protection, such as would the pressure of so many cero's break through it or is that immposible

Barragan has no known limit to his aging powers from human bodies to kido to full nukes he has aged them all.

[Souret]

I still think Barragans arrogance would be his downfall because it would leave an opening for stark

[Sagepain]

^ If arrogance is an issue in this fight then so is Starks Laziness.

I doubt he'd do anything drastic at the start of the fight since Barragan would be arrogant and wouldin't start with his ressureccion according to you.

[Ba_bamBam]

Originally Posted by Souret

I still think Barragans arrogance would be his downfall because it would leave an opening for stark

If the fight is IC then, it's more likely Barragan than Stark 70/30 seeing as how Stark is incredibly lazy.
If they're both bloodlusted, I give it to Stark 80/20 because of the potential of him blitz-slashing Barragan at the very start.

[JLI2infinity]

Guys Aizen saw Stark and Barragan at full power and assigned them rankings. You seriously think the uber-hax genius Aizen couldn't tell who was stronger.

We can all agree that Stark wins in all the basic categories strength, speed, swordsmanship, reaitsu...this is just a question of how he would beat Respira.

It isn't that hard. Stark has pinpoint aim with powerful Ceros. Respira has a time delay on it's aging process (hence Soi fon's bankai explosion managing to damage him at point blank range). All Stark has to do is Cero Metrallica at the same point on Barragan's head. Respira can't age all the ceros in time. It's the same premise as fighting an energy absorber either fight without energy or overload theirrate of absorption.

Even though I agree Stark wins, suggesting he blitzes is ridiculous if Soi fon couldn't. She's the fastest in all the Gotei 13.

[Ba_bamBam]

Originally Posted by JLI2infinity

Even though I agree Stark wins, suggesting he blitzes is ridiculous if Soi fon couldn't. She's the fastest in all the Gotei 13.

Chapter 313, pages 15-19

As you can see Stark appears literally out of no where, then casually disappears right when Kenpachi and Ichigo tried to attack him. Then next you see he's instantly already hundreds of metres away most likely more than a km/mile. That's how fast he is. He travelled 1km+ from where ichigo and Kenpachi was to Aizen in an instant.

[joon61]

Very valid point.
And he did it while carrying orihime.XD

[BMC1994]

Originally Posted by JLI2infinity

Even though I agree Stark wins, suggesting he blitzes is ridiculous if Soi fon couldn't. She's the fastest in all the Gotei 13.

And zommari was the fastest espada -.-

[joon61]

Yet byakuya was keeping up with him.
Would that make him faster than soi fon? Nope.

[JLI2infinity]

Originally Posted by Ba_bamBam

Chapter 313, pages 15-19

As you can see Stark appears literally out of no where, then casually disappears right when Kenpachi and Ichigo tried to attack him. Then next you see he's instantly already hundreds of metres away most likely more than a km/mile. That's how fast he is. He travelled 1km+ from where ichigo and Kenpachi was to Aizen in an instant.

And zommari was the fastest espada -.-

Yet byakuya was keeping up with him.
Would that make him faster than soi fon? Nope.

That's might just be a testament to his skill and experience with Sonido, and not just his speed.

For example, during the SS Arc when Kyoraku and Ukitake decided to run from Yamamoto he appeared in front of them quite a few miles away. When Nanao passed out from Yamamoto's spirit pressure, Kyoraku placed her by a fountain also a significant distance away. When he returned Yamamoto said "you've learned to go quite far with a flash step Kyoraku."

To me it seems like what shows mastery of shunpo is not how fast you can go in a flash step, but the overall distance you can travel. If this premise is true and Sonido works similar to Shunpo than none of Kubo's statements have to be retconned. Think of it like this...

Zommari has the fastest sonido, he can travel from point A to point B the quickest among all the Espada as long as the distance between the two points isn't great. Thus he can do things like create after images when he moves. Stark and Ulquiorra have the best sonidos, they can travel relatively great distances with just one or two steps completely surprising and overwhelming their opponents.

For example, Ulquiorra kicks Ichigo through the tower about 200+ yards away then appears in front of him to stab him through the chest. Stark sees Orihime in the distance sonidos about a mile forward with one step, grabs her, and then sonidos about a mile away to the point where Kenpachi and Ichigo can no longer see him. Kenpachi who has no shunpo and Ichigo who can only perform high level shunpo in close combat have no chance at catching him.


Now for shinigami. Byakuya was taught shunpo by Yoruichi and so he knows things like Black Ops steps to create after images in close combat. But as a master of the flash Yoruichi can take longer flash steps as well, using a few hundred quick ones to avoid Byakuya's first attacks and grab Ichigo, then a few skilled long ones to leave him in the dust and escape.

BTW Byakuya might've kept up with Zommari but he didn't display superior speed anywhere during their fight. He won by skill. They stopped making it a battle of speed after their first exchange when they decided to activate their zanpakuto.

[Ba_bamBam]

Originally Posted by JLI2infinity

That's might just be a testament to his skill and experience with Sonido, and not just his speed.

For example, during the SS Arc when Kyoraku and Ukitake decided to run from Yamamoto he appeared in front of them quite a few miles away. When Nanao passed out from Yamamoto's spirit pressure, Kyoraku placed her by a fountain also a significant distance away. When he returned Yamamoto said "you've learned to go quite far with a flash step Kyoraku."

To me it seems like what shows mastery of shunpo is not how fast you can go in a flash step, but the overall distance you can travel. If this premise is true and Sonido works similar to Shunpo than none of Kubo's statements have to be retconned. Think of it like this...

Zommari has the fastest sonido, he can travel from point A to point B the quickest among all the Espada as long as the distance between the two points isn't great. Thus he can do things like create after images when he moves. Stark and Ulquiorra have the best sonidos, they can travel relatively great distances with just one or two steps completely surprising and overwhelming their opponents.

For example, Ulquiorra kicks Ichigo through the tower about 200+ yards away then appears in front of him to stab him through the chest. Stark sees Orihime in the distance sonidos about a mile forward with one step, grabs her, and then sonidos about a mile away to the point where Kenpachi and Ichigo can no longer see him. Kenpachi who has no shunpo and Ichigo who can only perform high level shunpo in close combat have no chance at catching him.


Now for shinigami. Byakuya was taught shunpo by Yoruichi and so he knows things like Black Ops steps to create after images in close combat. But as a master of the flash Yoruichi can take longer flash steps as well, using a few hundred quick ones to avoid Byakuya's first attacks and grab Ichigo, then a few skilled long ones to leave him in the dust and escape.

BTW Byakuya might've kept up with Zommari but he didn't display superior speed anywhere during their fight. He won by skill. They stopped making it a battle of speed after their first exchange when they decided to activate their zanpakuto.

And? All of this in the bolded section just proves the point that Stark has the capabilities of taking out Barragan before he can release.

[JLI2infinity]

No, my point was that at close range which is where the fight would occur, Soi Fon's got the fastest shunpo in the Gotei 13, yet she was unable to blitz Barragan, so I don't believe that Stark could either, because I think that Zommari was the one with the fastest sonido at close range yet Byakuya who is slower than Soi Fon with shunpo, wasn't blitzed by him.

So in terms of close range speed I have it like so

Soi Fon > Zommari ~ Byakuya > Stark


But with full mastery of their high speed movement techniques allowing for them to blitz at a distance I have it like this

Stark >>> Soi Fon, Zommari, and Byakuya

You read what you wanted to read.

[Ba_bamBam]

Originally Posted by JLI2infinity

No, my point was that at close range which is where the fight would occur, Soi Fon's got the fastest shunpo in the Gotei 13, yet she was unable to blitz Barragan, so I don't believe that Stark could either, because I think that Zommari was the one with the fastest sonido at close range yet Byakuya who is slower than Soi Fon with shunpo, wasn't blitzed by him.

So in terms of close range speed I have it like so

Soi Fon > Zommari ~ Byakuya > Stark

But with full mastery of their high speed movement techniques allowing for them to blitz at a distance I have it like this

Stark >>> Soi Fon, Zommari, and Byakuya

You read what you wanted to read.

You think - sorry I know what you're trying to say but try not to use that word in a debate

- Please stop comparing the Espadas and Gotei 13 as if every category is the same. Just because Soifon had the fastest shunpo in the Gotei 13 and Stark supposedly does not have the fastest sonido title and supposedly is below Zommari doesn't mean that he is slower than her. Point here is you can't compare two things that aren't identical to each other. The scale of the speed of the Espada is completely different from the scale of the Gotei 13. Zommari self - proclaimed his title, so it's not exactly set in stone.

Also, "high speed movement techniques allowing for them to blitz at a distance I have it like this". If I take a gun, and shoot it at a wall 1km away, it would hit the wall correct? If it take a gun, and shoot it at a wall 500m away, it would also hit the wall correct? If they shot at the same time but remain in their respective distances, who's bullet do you think will hit first? Point I'm trying to get at is just because they're close range doesn't exactly change the Stark's speed in any way.

Stark's speed may have looked sluggish in comparison to Zommari, but that was ONLY because he was facing Shunsui one of the strongest captains of the Gotei 13.

And sorry when did it say Soifon had the best shunpo in all of soul society? No I'm being serious, I'm not trying to wrong you lol, I seriously don't remember, could you point me to it?

[JLI2infinity]

Originally Posted by Ba_bamBam

You think - sorry I know what you're trying to say but try not to use that word in a debate

- Please stop comparing the Espadas and Gotei 13 as if every category is the same. Just because Soifon had the fastest shunpo in the Gotei 13 and Stark supposedly does not have the fastest sonido title and supposedly is below Zommari doesn't mean that he is slower than her. Point here is you can't compare two things that aren't identical to each other. The scale of the speed of the Espada is completely different from the scale of the Gotei 13. Zommari self - proclaimed his title, so it's not exactly set in stone.

Also, "high speed movement techniques allowing for them to blitz at a distance I have it like this". If I take a gun, and shoot it at a wall 1km away, it would hit the wall correct? If it take a gun, and shoot it at a wall 500m away, it would also hit the wall correct? If they shot at the same time but remain in their respective distances, who's bullet do you think will hit first? Point I'm trying to get at is just because they're close range doesn't exactly change the Stark's speed in any way.

Stark's speed may have looked sluggish in comparison to Zommari, but that was ONLY because he was facing Shunsui one of the strongest captains of the Gotei 13.

And sorry when did it say Soifon had the best shunpo in all of soul society? No I'm being serious, I'm not trying to wrong you lol, I seriously don't remember, could you point me to it?

You gun example doesn't work here. A better example (and this is far from perfect) would be comparing a cheetah and a gazelle. Both animals reach very impressive top speeds, the cheetah at 70mph and the gazelle at 55mph, but the gazelle can continue sprinting for miles on end while the cheetah can maintain top speed for a few hundred meters max.

So with the grabbing Orihime example. Let's say a cheetah (in this scenario being Zommari) grabbed Orihime and attempted to flee, it would get a good starting distance between the pursuers but wouldn't be able to sustain its escape. Now let's say the gazelle (being Stark) grabbed Orihime. The gazelle takes off at an impressive but slightly slower speed but books it for a good three miles. There's no chance of catching it.

Now let's say the cheetah and gazelle are trying to surprise and pounce on a target only a few meters away. If that target can avoid the cheetah then the gazelle has no chance.

Like I said this example doesn't exactly work but is a slight improvement.

Anyways Soi Fon having the fastest shunpo of the current Gotei 13 was somewhat established during her fight with Yoruichi. She was not only able to keep up with Yoruichi's movements (which Byakuya couldn't) but tag Yoruichi a few times and force her to keep a distance.

P.S. Shunsui being one of the strongest doesn't have to mean he's anywhere close to fastest. He hardly used shunpo to attack. Like I said I believe he has mastered the art so that he can go far with a few steps but there isn't any evidence to indicate he's faster than Byakuya in close quarters (as a matter of fact they both have mobilities of 90 in the databook). So you saying that he's so fast it makes Stark's speed look normal is kinda baseless.