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Old 10-21-2012, 07:32 PM   #21
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Default Re: Danzo vs Deva Path

Pretty sure you pulled that one out of your booty cuz Nagato didn't die after getting hit with frog song.
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Old 10-21-2012, 07:38 PM   #22
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Default Re: Danzo vs Deva Path

To be fair, none of them "died" as they are all corpses.
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Old 10-21-2012, 07:57 PM   #23
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Default Re: Danzo vs Deva Path

but they still have chakra and genjustu effects chakra
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Old 10-21-2012, 07:59 PM   #24
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Default Re: Danzo vs Deva Path

It interrupts the flow of it, but their chakra isn't "flowing", it comes in chakra waves.
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Old 10-21-2012, 08:02 PM   #25
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Default Re: Danzo vs Deva Path

so it would interrupt the waves.... like Sora said the other paths were distrubeted by Frog Song

so why would they not be effected by a more powerful genjutsu?
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Old 10-21-2012, 08:06 PM   #26
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Default Re: Danzo vs Deva Path

Because Frog Song is a psyche locking audio Genjutsu, and as sound waves they have a better chance of shutting out the other chakra waves.

There was a big debate on if torture genjutsu works because Nagato would see what they see, and that was shot down by an example of the paths essentially being the same as Kank's puppets.

Koto, which doesn't do anything but put suggestions in, would literally have no use since the path's don't have a thought process to dictate around, and theres even less proof that such a thing would travel across the chakra waves back to Nagato.

Lets assume you used Koto on Kank's crow puppet. Its connected to him by chakra strings, a much more direct route into his chakra system than waves are. Would you then say that, despite not having a mind of its own, you can Genjutsu kankuro by using his puppets as a medium?
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Old 10-21-2012, 08:44 PM   #27
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Default Re: Danzo vs Deva Path

I still do not understand how Frong Song would effect the paths but Not koto!1

Frog Song would not effect kankuro's puppets

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Old 10-21-2012, 08:56 PM   #28
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Default Re: Danzo vs Deva Path

Imagine it like this.
Radio waves
Static comes from intersecting radio waves, meaning the waves interfere with each other.

Frog song is basically waves of chakra genjutsu via sound, and the chakra signals coming from Nagato are the other waves. When they collide, its a metaphoric "static" occuring with the paths.

Koto is a direct spike in only one side of the receptor, and with no send-back of chakra waves it wouldn't cause any interference.
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Old 10-22-2012, 03:43 AM   #29
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Default Re: Danzo vs Deva Path

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Originally Posted by Frost ninja View Post
Because Frog Song is a psyche locking audio Genjutsu, and as sound waves they have a better chance of shutting out the other chakra waves.

There was a big debate on if torture genjutsu works because Nagato would see what they see, and that was shot down by an example of the paths essentially being the same as Kank's puppets.

Koto, which doesn't do anything but put suggestions in, would literally have no use since the path's don't have a thought process to dictate around, and theres even less proof that such a thing would travel across the chakra waves back to Nagato.

Lets assume you used Koto on Kank's crow puppet. Its connected to him by chakra strings, a much more direct route into his chakra system than waves are. Would you then say that, despite not having a mind of its own, you can Genjutsu kankuro by using his puppets as a medium?
Alright what you're pointing out makes perfect sense but here's why I don't agree. I believe that since Nagato and the paths share vision, if one of the paths suffers from a powerful visual genjutsu the other paths and Nagato are effected. If they share vision then it makes sense that the visual cues of optical genjutsu would effect all of them.

This still works with what we know about Frog Song as well. Only 3 of the paths were within the range of the sound waves Ma and Pa produced so only three of them felt the effects, however, the other three and Nagato were well aware that the paths had gotten trapped. Most likely they saw the visions of the paths who were trapped but didn't have to feel the effects.

If you think about it through the lens of Pa's security camera analogy it works as well. If three of the cameras freeze you can tell that they're frozen but it doesn't mean the other three have to freeze as well. With Itachi's genjutsu the analogy doesn't work quite as well but imagine if one security camera started showing that cartoonish hypnotism loop (you know the one from shows like Ed, Edd, and Eddy or Teen Titans) that puts you in a trance once you stare at it, at that point it wouldn't matter what the rest were showing because anyone who saw that screen would fall into the trance.

I agree with you that comparing the paths with Kankuro's puppets is a very keen analogy that would work for most purposes but the difference between Kankuro and Nagato is that Nagato shares an organic link with his paths that Kankuro doesn't with his puppets.

For example, both Kankuro and Nagato can be traced by the chakra they use to control their tools, but you can't actually flow chakra back through the threads Kankuro uses to effect him. Naruto forcibly sent his chakra through the receivers to force his presence on Nagato on two separate occasions.

HOWEVER, now that I have clarified my view, I do agree with you that it is unfair to make the argument that Danzo can just look at Deva's body and control him like he did to Mifune. Danzo will actually have to make eye contact for Koto to take effect.

Not like this matters to who wins this fight anyways considering my strategy didn't even use Koto but it was a really interesting point I thought I'd throw in my two cents about.
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Old 10-22-2012, 05:49 AM   #30
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Default Re: Danzo vs Deva Path

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Originally Posted by JLI2infinity View Post
Alright what you're pointing out makes perfect sense but here's why I don't agree. I believe that since Nagato and the paths share vision, if one of the paths suffers from a powerful visual genjutsu the other paths and Nagato are effected. If they share vision then it makes sense that the visual cues of optical genjutsu would effect all of them.

That was debated but it ended up being termed out in the idea that it would only work if what the path's saw was potent enough to have an effect. Koto doesn't make you see anything, so no.


This still works with what we know about Frog Song as well. Only 3 of the paths were within the range of the sound waves Ma and Pa produced so only three of them felt the effects, however, the other three and Nagato were well aware that the paths had gotten trapped. Most likely they saw the visions of the paths who were trapped but didn't have to feel the effects.

True, now note Koto doesn't actually make you see anything.


If you think about it through the lens of Pa's security camera analogy it works as well. If three of the cameras freeze you can tell that they're frozen but it doesn't mean the other three have to freeze as well. With Itachi's genjutsu the analogy doesn't work quite as well but imagine if one security camera started showing that cartoonish hypnotism loop (you know the one from shows like Ed, Edd, and Eddy or Teen Titans) that puts you in a trance once you stare at it, at that point it wouldn't matter what the rest were showing because anyone who saw that screen would fall into the trance.

All hail the hypnotoad type dealing? Then explain how Might Guy managed to negate its effects PTS by utilizing the reflection from the water.


I agree with you that comparing the paths with Kankuro's puppets is a very keen analogy that would work for most purposes but the difference between Kankuro and Nagato is that Nagato shares an organic link with his paths that Kankuro doesn't with his puppets.

Proof me on this? Because end all, they are all just chakra controlled lifeless tools, more or less.


For example, both Kankuro and Nagato can be traced by the chakra they use to control their tools, but you can't actually flow chakra back through the threads Kankuro uses to effect him. Naruto forcibly sent his chakra through the receivers to force his presence on Nagato on two separate occasions.

You can walk bugs on the strings, and kankuro has shown he can attach his own strings to other strings. Flowing chakras through or across the threads would actually be even more possible than assuming the same for waves. In exampling, you remember how one path ended up getting turned into a Toad Statue for intaking too much of Naruto's natural chakra? Why then did Nagato not also turn into a statue? After all, the chakra going into the path would be similar to genjutsu in that it would cause an ebb in the flow and become inbalanced (hence the toadification), and in that ideal it should have traveled across the waves of that path.


HOWEVER, now that I have clarified my view, I do agree with you that it is unfair to make the argument that Danzo can just look at Deva's body and control him like he did to Mifune. Danzo will actually have to make eye contact for Koto to take effect.

Proven that he doesn't have to make direct eye contact.


Not like this matters to who wins this fight anyways considering my strategy didn't even use Koto but it was a really interesting point I thought I'd throw in my two cents about.
It doesn't but its worth talking about either way.
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Old 10-22-2012, 11:56 AM   #31
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Default Re: Danzo vs Deva Path

thanks for being a great teacher Frost! I get what you are saying! Danzo suxs
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Old 10-22-2012, 12:23 PM   #32
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Default Re: Danzo vs Deva Path

Danzo still wins though. Bind touch > Deva path
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Old 10-22-2012, 12:45 PM   #33
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Default Re: Danzo vs Deva Path

i think danzo will win, the worst deva can do to him is pulling then stapping him, izangi will saves him and gives him chance to do a counter
but still i have a question does genjitsu work on the mind of the target or it works on the chackra, i suppose since it can makes you see visions it controls the mind ( still this can be a consequence for affecting the chackra ) so i dont know
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Old 10-22-2012, 12:56 PM   #34
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Default Re: Danzo vs Deva Path

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Danzo still wins though. Bind touch > Deva path
I think someone stated that Danzo starts the fight with his arm sealed, so no Izanagi, and good luck pulling off Bind Touch in the middle of Bansho Tenin ... It also doesn't activate immediately so if he could get it off he'd already be dead by stake to the heart. This is also assuming Deva uses Bansho Tenin instead of Shinra Tensei.
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Old 10-22-2012, 01:14 PM   #35
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Default Re: Danzo vs Deva Path

I think people are forgetting Danzos battlestyle.....
He's all about sacrificing, he lets enemies attack.

And who knows if Kotoamatsukami actually works on him seeing that Deva is a corpse.
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Old 10-22-2012, 01:21 PM   #36
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Default Re: Danzo vs Deva Path

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i think danzo will win, the worst deva can do to him is pulling then stapping him, izangi will saves him and gives him chance to do a counter
but still i have a question does genjitsu work on the mind of the target or it works on the chackra, i suppose since it can makes you see visions it controls the mind ( still this can be a consequence for affecting the chackra ) so i dont know

you think Deva will give Danzo the chance to unseal his arm to use Izangmi ???
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Old 10-22-2012, 01:27 PM   #37
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Default Re: Danzo vs Deva Path

of course not , but since the reverse is not stated in the first post we can assume that he entered the battle prepared,
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Old 10-22-2012, 01:28 PM   #38
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Default Re: Danzo vs Deva Path

we can NEVER assume in the battlegrounds. If it is unsealed than Danzo stomps but if not Danzo loses..

No prep is stated in the Op so Danzo's arm thing is STILL ON
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Old 10-22-2012, 01:34 PM   #39
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Default Re: Danzo vs Deva Path

Quote:
Originally Posted by PrinceofPeace View Post
we can NEVER assume in the battlegrounds. If it is unsealed than Danzo stomps but if not Danzo loses..

No prep is stated in the Op so Danzo's arm thing is STILL ON
agree
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Old 10-22-2012, 01:35 PM   #40
Vivi
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Default Re: Danzo vs Deva Path

No prep unless specified.
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