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View Poll Results: Who would win?
Holy Roman Empire 4 80.00%
Tokugawa Shogunate 1 20.00%
Tied 0 0%
Voters: 5. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 10-16-2012, 09:24 PM   #21
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Default Re: Holy Roman Empire vs Tokugawa Shogunate - Historical military comparison

Both KAtana and Longsword had their uses and effectiveness. That being said, that video posted by Ninja Cao should not be used as evidence.

First of all looking at the comment sections.

It's full of disagreements. Intelligent ones mind you, few of the consistent ones kept mentioning sources.

Some of the comments even mentioned how the video made them hate America.

Some of the comments mentioned that the longsword was displayed ineffectively and the wielder did not understand how to use it.


As for Knights. The Knights being heavy is more from the era where guns were increasingly more effective and the fact heavier steel armor increased the weight towards the end.

Knights weren't like some slow juggernaut.

Its a false myth.
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Old 10-17-2012, 06:43 AM   #22
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Default Re: Holy Roman Empire vs Tokugawa Shogunate - Historical military comparison

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Originally Posted by The Immortal Watch Dog View Post
in the same way Pearl Harbor was, in the same way the Hot Gates were, in the same way many other such victories were through out history..IE- not

sorry but The Mongols had it not been for a heaping quantity of external issues would have raped Japan


yes they sure had no problem overrunning nations like Russia and the regions of Eastern Europe which had been devastated by centuries of conflict prior- i like how they stopped short of Western Europe and never made any head roads instead they did things like what was it? Oh yeah asked the pope to send Christian scholars to them and stuff..they seemed far more willing to fight the crappy part than the good part

to my knowledge very few western nations were taken by the huns the rest of the land..well



Really? knights weren't better trained and had horrible mobility? Listen when you stop regurgitating the same old nonsense Otaku BS and actually know what your talking about..we can have a discussion

protip Youtube is full of videos of people doing friggen back flips and cart wheels in Knight Armor.. these people of course are not employed by the history channel or Deadliest warrior or any other tv show or channel obssessed with validating pop culture trends and going by preconceived notions of bad ass over historical accuracy

lots of essays have been published lots of works debunking Knights being stiff



those western peasants would be better armored than their eastern counter parts..their crummy field spears would be made of superior metal to what the average Samurai even could afford

Those western peasants would also in certain eras especially the 1400's- to 1500's have some actual training

England, Spain and France as well as some of the Dutch and German states had very well trained armies the big three had incredibly experienced troops and IIRC France and Spain showed full well what "modern" artillery could do on the battlefield a few times

the Dutch too once or twice a century prior



I want something that doesn't cost an absurd amount of money and isn't made from horrible quality metal that can murder as many people that are trying to murder me..without needing absurd amounts of maintenance and without all the baggage of it being a symbol of prestige

this is what all soldiers who have ever fought want..something practical that they don't have to worry about..that works and will damn well

to that effect a Katana fails miserably




this
A victory is to reach your objective as a military commander, no matter the cost in men or money. If you slaughter 90% of the enemy army and only loses 1% of your own soldiers, but still can't fullfill your objectives, then you have lost.

Eastern Europe and Asia are two different things. Russia did not develop a professional army until after their attempt to overrun Sweden in 1700. Poland-Lithuania also did not develop much after the Thirty Years' War. But now, this comparison does not include Eastern Europe. It is a comparison between a loosely tied coalition of states against a feudal empire with a much larger and more successful army.

A common European knight armor weighted 20 kg, which is still more than a samurai armor of 10-12 kg (source: Allt om Historia). Also the knight armor covered all the mobile parts of the body (knees and elbows in particular), which would restrict mobility greater than the samurai armor that was not directly attached to the body. Samurai protected their legs with a "skirt" of armor that enabled their legs to move quite freely, while their arms were protected by the large shoulder protectors that did not restrict arm movement. Samurai were more mobile than the knights in any situation, and mobility has defeated protection in many battlefields.

The Holy Roman Empire peasant draftees wore no armor, or leather at most, while the Japanese ashigaru used steel plating. Of course the westerners had better mobility in peasant battles, unlike the elite battles, which brings the edge to weaponry and training. The Holy Roman Empire only trained their peasants in how to handle muskets or longbows, but they had almost no skill in melee combat (source: any historical media describing the Thirty Years' War). The ashigaru used spears of same quality metal that their European counterparts used, along with swords and sometimes longbows or grenades (source: Total War media).

No foreign interventions are allowed, so talking about English, Spanish, French or Dutch superioriy is not going to help.

Personally I would prefer to be able to strike my enemy in the same second I pull my blade from its sheath, cutting him down before he has time to react. Or I would prefer a weapon that is light enough for quick strikes against multiple opponents and can be used with another weapon in my free hand. But you have the right to your own opinion in that.
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Old 10-19-2012, 12:24 AM   #23
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Default Re: Holy Roman Empire vs Tokugawa Shogunate - Historical military comparison

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A victory is to reach your objective as a military commander, no matter the cost in men or money. If you slaughter 90% of the enemy army and only loses 1% of your own soldiers, but still can't fullfill your objectives, then you have lost.
I don't think you understand..when your temporary victory ultimately destroys your regime you did not win anything
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Old 10-19-2012, 06:44 AM   #24
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Default Re: Holy Roman Empire vs Tokugawa Shogunate - Historical military comparison

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I don't think you understand..when your temporary victory ultimately destroys your regime you did not win anything
True. A strategic victory (a victory that is important for long-term objectives) is far more important than a tactical victory (a victory where you kill many enemies for few own losses).
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Old 10-19-2012, 08:12 AM   #25
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Default Re: Holy Roman Empire vs Tokugawa Shogunate - Historical military comparison

Pyrrhic Victory
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