is the fourth the best hokage?

[Sage_Of_Six_Paths]

I think that the 1st Hokage is the best, I just want to see him fight and judge from there...but the 3rd was capable of sealing him, so does that make him stronger??

[PrinceofPeace]

The third would seal a wood clone on accident.

Good luck sealing him when The 1st binds you with Wood style or knocks you out with pollen

That goes for you too Minato

[paradigm1977]

Originally Posted by PrinceofPeace

Hashriama MADE the village. He brought together THOUSANDS of people to join a village.

Originally Posted by Uchiha Efair

I think the first is the best hokage, he is the strongest ninja ever exist that can fight madara and the one who build the village.

Originally Posted by Lady Tsunade

Hashirama was the best Hokage. He founded Konoha,

So we're all gonna pretend that hashirama created the village by himself? We won't give any credit to Madara, the senju clan or the uchiha clan? Officially, he was the person who approached the Uchiha for a peace treaty and to build the village together. No mention of his idea. And there was no hokage voted in till later on. That's after the village was established. So he wasn't the leader from the beginning, like many seem to think.

Originally Posted by Nameless Shinobi

he is the founder the first hidden village (along side with madara, but madara is being pushed away and then he kicked out from konoha)

There you go. Someone else knows the history here. Though the push out was after Hashirama was voted by residents (Senju, Uchiha, plus other clans).

Originally Posted by PrinceofPeace

Plus he only had water style jutsu's not the greates kage
Any hokage could take him

So no credit for Space/time? Minato and Tobi do very well with it. For water he was the best. I would also start his water rep with every water jutsu Kisame can use. Then add E/T. He also was a sensor. everyone forgets that, but he did know exactly how many ninja were in the area (before his death). That can be very useful in combo with T/S.

Originally Posted by PrinceofPeace

2nd only has water style and HORRIBLE edo tensi it is not even as good as Oro's

According to who? Oro? And you are comparing an invention to an improvement. Who should get more rep? I say the inventor. Plus, Tobirama might not have tried to improve it. Would make sense if he was going to make it a forbidden jutsu.

Also, to everyone who takes rep from Tobirama for ET falling into Oro's hands... wrong person. There are many forbidden jutsues. In this case, it fell on the third to guard them, and to kill Oro when he had the chance. He knew how powerful Oro was already.

Technically, the question/thread is about the position itself, not best in a fight. Tobirama was more of an idea man than the rest. That is established. Hashirama was the most powerful, 3rd knew the most jutsu. The structure of the current village was established by Tobirama. To say the village would be the same without him, and that others would have the same idea would be false.

Minato had to protect his wife and a baby in the middle of a bijuu attack. Don't take too much away from his circumstances. All in all though, he and Tsunade accomplished the least. Hiruzen protected the village until he was old as anything. But it's really down to Tobirama and maybe Hashirama. With the 3rd losing out based on the Oro mistake, and the 4th and 5th not doing enough.

[Jarsy]

i think the 1st and fourth hokage are the best
the 1st because he create konoha
the fourth because he created a jutsu (rasengan) and he saved konoha from the nine tails

[Bazk]

you cant really messure with power levels of the 2nd hokage we have seen him fight one time by a bad version of the edo tensei either he failed bringing them back 100% powerful or he didnt know what they could do. it wouldnt make sense otherwise. 1st and 2nd got beaten by the third. if they were that powerful in life madara would have smashed the 1st hokage in minutes
and also people seems to forget about time/space jutsu and his absolute darkness jutsu

I think that the first hokage is the strongest not for creating konoha you dont really need power for that more brains and a good reason, mainly because he beat madara sure he survived but barely,
seeing what madara can do and i dont think its even half

[PrinceofPeace]

@1977.... and everyone who believes that Hashirama is not the best Hokage and believes that Tobirama is the best

Well of course Hashirama did not build/establish the village all by himself but he definetly did most of the work! It was said that his wood style was used to create the very landscape and foundation that Konoha is built upon! Hashirama got the idea from seeing his comrades/family fall in battle and that his clan would soon be exstinict! The point is without Hashirama's leadership, charisma, WILL OF FIRE, and nogotiating skillz their would be no Leaf Village

I did not give Tobirama his space/time ninjutsu feats because the only space/time ninjutsu he has shown was Edo tensi... and we all know the story on that. Tobirama created a sinster jutsu that should never be used and he failed to lock it away. He is the reason why the bad guys were winning the war for a while. ALso Tobirama would not use that ability in battle and it takes a lot of prep plus Tobirama is not very good using that jutsu.

The best water ninjutsu user is by far ... KISAME HOSHIGAKI!! (but that is another debate for another thread)
Big deal he was good sensor.... how does that make him the best or strongest hokage?!?! He was not able to tell how strong they were so he was not that strong of a sensor. Also he could not even beat 20nin how lame is that?!?! Hashirama and Minato took down an Uchiha and Kurama which is a bigger feat than 20kumo ninja.

I am getting the feeling that you are a Tobirama fan?

The main reasons why I do not like
-we know the least about him
-we have never seen him in battle
-he did not master wood style
-he did not trust the Uchiha
-he easily lost to 20kumo ninja
-He created a heinous jutsu
-he could not keep his heinous jutsu a secret
-------------------------
Good things
-he established the village
-he taught great ninja
-beat the Kinku bros
---------------------
Sorry but Edo Tensi is not a great feat for Tobirama... yes it is a one of the most powerful jutsu's but it is a un-just jutsu. He would not use it in battle cuz of prep and how wrong it is.

Okay so are you blaming Sarutobi (TOBIRAMA'S STUDENT) for failing?!?! In a way that is Tobirmama's fault for not being a good teacher. Do not act like this is completely Sarutobi's fault!! Tobirama should have NEVER made such a jutsu and should have destoyed it. Sarutobi did not know that Oro had his hands on that jutsu. When a bad game happens it is never the player's fault it is the coaches! I agree Sarutobi should have killed Oro but Sarutobi had a lot of faith and pitty and love for Oro. We do not know how he felt cuz we are not in his position.

I am going to have to disagree with you there. To be the BEST hokage these are some of the qualities you must have
- leadership
-how you improved the village
-protecting the village (strong)
-who you inspired
-admired/love
-Overall.. what is your LEGACY?!?!?!

Yes Tobirama did the most Politically for his village... but honestly that is the ONLY thing he did! But lets look at what Hashirama did for the village
-Protected the village from Madara and Kurama (BY himself)
-Did the most work to build the village
-Was respected by all
-Was the Leader of the Senju
-Made a treaty with the Uchiha
-Made a treaty with the Land of Fire/Fire Damiyo
Not only was Hashirama a great leader for the leaf BUT WORLDWIDE
-Controlled the bijju and gave them to the other villages
-Defeated Kakazu

....Honestly how does ANY hokage compare with what he did ??
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@ everyone who believes that Hashirama is not the best Hokage and believes that Minato is the best

All Minato does is TELEPORT!! He barley moves physcially! Take away his FTG kunai and he is poop! If you take away Hashirama's wood style (which is harder to take away cuz it is genetic and not fair because Hashirama achieved Wood Style through Hard Work while Minato has tools which can be taken away) Hashirama can still
-heal
-seal
-genjutsu
-Kinjutsu

Minato can only
-summon
-rasengan
-seal

With Minato's ablities he ran away and safely but his family to bed.... it is not impressive to run away!


By the way this is a shot-out to everyone who thinks Minato is the best Hokage.. (WHICH HE IS NOT)
What did Minato do that was soo special?!?!
-He defeated Kurama (WRONG HE NEEDED HELP FROM Kushina and DIED while doing it)
-He protected the village (WRONG AGAIN The whole viilage fought Kurama)

So what did Minato do
-Defeated Obito 1v1
-Helped win the war for the leaf

But at what cost
-Minato failed to live with his son
-Minato failed to protect his team
--------------------------------------------------------------

This is for any Sarutobi is the best hokage (he is my second choice)
- A HORRIBLE Sensi! All of his students left the village
- He could not kill Oro and that mistake made the WHOLE WORLD SUFFER
- Failed to stop the Uchiha Massacure
- COuld have taken better care of Naruto
-HE IS ALL HYPE

--------------
goood things about the 3rd

------------------
-Well respected
-Help protected the village while Minato was away
-Longest regining hokage (BUT NOT KAGE)
-Raised powerful ninja
-inspired stuents
-Sealed away Oro's arms and other hokages

When you think about it what did Sarutobi really do for his village? Politically he did nothing! The village was not improved it actually got worse! He was the longest regining Hokage but he did not do much! During the Hyuga issues he just stood their! He did lead his village through the war but any kage could have done that! I doubt he lives up to his hype after seeing what Onoki can do!
The 3rd is just a lie to me lol! It is like Shikak (shikamaru's dad) said! Legends are exagerated over time
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And to anyone who thinks Tsunade is the bes... HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA I could not even finish the sentence. The only thing she did was heal ppl and put faith in Naruto

-----------------------------------------------------------------


In Conclusion

HASHIRAMA IS THE ULTIMATE HOKAGE

why??

Spoiler:

Because Hashirama did NOTHING wrong as Hokage!!

Spoiler:

I do not mean to sound like a jerk but it is true! WHat did Hashirama do wrong?

So now hopefully everyone knows why Hashirama is the best hokage (and kage)... at least IMO

[paradigm1977]

Originally Posted by PrinceofPeace

@1977.... and everyone who believes that Hashirama is not the best Hokage and believes that Tobirama is the best

Well of course Hashirama did not build/establish the village all by himself but he definetly did most of the work! It was said that his wood style was used to create the very landscape and foundation that Konoha is built upon! Hashirama got the idea from seeing his comrades/family fall in battle and that his clan would soon be exstinict! The point is without Hashirama's leadership, charisma, WILL OF FIRE, and nogotiating skillz their would be no Leaf Village

OK, but you missed the part where I mentioned that Hashirama was not Hokage when the village was built. So you can't have that argument or the treaty. He was a great warrior and leader then. He was not a hokage then.

Originally Posted by PrinceofPeace

I did not give Tobirama his space/time ninjutsu feats because the only space/time ninjutsu he has shown was Edo tensi... and we all know the story on that. Tobirama created a sinster jutsu that should never be used and he failed to lock it away. He is the reason why the bad guys were winning the war for a while. ALso Tobirama would not use that ability in battle and it takes a lot of prep plus Tobirama is not very good using that jutsu.

Say what? is Edo Tensei sinister if you raise your fallen comrades and they tell you that the enemy is heading west...to the village!!!! What if you can raise that enemy spy you killed and force him to tell you everything he knows of his village? I don't count either as sinister. "Oh no! they killed our most skilled medic nin," "don't worry, I'll raise her/him from the dead, to give unlimited heals!"

Originally Posted by PrinceofPeace

The best water ninjutsu user is by far ... KISAME HOSHIGAKI!! (but that is another debate for another thread)
Big deal he was good sensor.... how does that make him the best or strongest hokage?!?! He was not able to tell how strong they were so he was not that strong of a sensor. Also he could not even beat 20nin how lame is that?!?! Hashirama and Minato took down an Uchiha and Kurama which is a bigger feat than 20kumo ninja.

Kisame likely has more chakra, but I'm going by Narutopedia. When the Water Dragon Bullet technique was shown, it took 44 hand seals. Tobirama could do it with one hand. Hiruzen went to a powerfull fire attack right away, when he realized it was him vs the 1st and 2nd. The second blocked and counterattacked with the same water wall jutsu. That was against a fellow kage. And more according to narutopedia. Tobirama could use jets of water to bring enemies to him. Why didn't Kisame?

Couldn't beat 20 nin? You mean the "kinkaku force" of elite kumogekure ninja. That's what their rep was. So lets say they are at least 20 jounin from another village. Only Minato had the established skill set for that many skilled enemies to be taken down so fast, that you don't have to watch your back. At least Minato and Hashirama only had two enemies to throw ninjutsu at you. You focus on the offensive power but not the threat to defense that 20 enemies bring. I'll give you some advantage, but really we cant gauge a comparison.

He also had the sword of the thundergod. The rep with that sword is that if you know how to use it, you cannot be defeated. Perhaps an exageration. But that's still a lot of rep. It was given by Aoi

Originally Posted by PrinceofPeace

I am getting the feeling that you are a Tobirama fan?

The main reasons why I do not like
-we know the least about him
-we have never seen him in battle
-he did not master wood style
-he did not trust the Uchiha
-he easily lost to 20kumo ninja
-He created a heinous jutsu
-he could not keep his heinous jutsu a secret

Didn't trust the Uchiha? He gave them the Police Force as a sign of good faith. unless you want to believe Tobi and Madara's point of view. I still dispute the jutsu as heiness since it could be used to protect the village.

Originally Posted by PrinceofPeace

-------------------------
Good things
-he established the village
-he taught great ninja
-beat the Kinku bros
---------------------

He established the entire ninja system. He taught the 3rd, Danzo, and the elders. He had more to do with passing down the will of fire than hashirama. He did it though his students. Who did Hashirama teach?

Originally Posted by PrinceofPeace

Sorry but Edo Tensi is not a great feat for Tobirama... yes it is a one of the most powerful jutsu's but it is a un-just jutsu. He would not use it in battle cuz of prep and how wrong it is.

What prep? Kabuto called the coffins right up when Tobi ran after him. How do you know he wouldn't use it in battle. What if Kurama attacks? He can't raise his brother to help?

Originally Posted by PrinceofPeace

Okay so are you blaming Sarutobi (TOBIRAMA'S STUDENT) for failing?!?! In a way that is Tobirmama's fault for not being a good teacher. Do not act like this is completely Sarutobi's fault!! Tobirama should have NEVER made such a jutsu and should have destoyed it. Sarutobi did not know that Oro had his hands on that jutsu. When a bad game happens it is never the player's fault it is the coaches! I agree Sarutobi should have killed Oro but Sarutobi had a lot of faith and pitty and love for Oro. We do not know how he felt cuz we are not in his position.

I think you are still stuck on evil uses of E/T. And never looked at the positive benefits in war time. And that jutsu was with other forbidden jutsues. Oro admitted researching them. Other villages also have forbidden jutsu. It's still the 3rds fault for letting it fall into the wrong hands. We don't need to know how Hiruzen felt. Hiruzen called himself weak for letting Oro leave.

Originally Posted by PrinceofPeace

I am going to have to disagree with you there. To be the BEST hokage these are some of the qualities you must have
- leadership
-how you improved the village
-protecting the village (strong)
-who you inspired
-admired/love
-Overall.. what is your LEGACY?!?!?!

Tobirama imporved the village the most while having hokage status. Inspired the 3rd and the 3rds advisors. This ensured the Will of fire to be passed down. He also trained Danzo.

Originally Posted by PrinceofPeace

Yes Tobirama did the most Politically for his village... but honestly that is the ONLY thing he did! But lets look at what Hashirama did for the village
-Protected the village from Madara and Kurama (BY himself)
-Did the most work to build the village
-Was respected by all
-Was the Leader of the Senju
-Made a treaty with the Uchiha
-Made a treaty with the Land of Fire/Fire Damiyo
Not only was Hashirama a great leader for the leaf BUT WORLDWIDE
-Controlled the bijju and gave them to the other villages
-Defeated Kakazu

Did not do the most work while a HOKAGE. established work was earlier.
Everyone respected Tobirama.
Uchiha treaty yes., Land of Fire, yes. Tobirama made a treaty with a warring country. Kumogekure. Hashirama did not!!! which is harder to negotiate?
The rest I agree.

Originally Posted by PrinceofPeace

In Conclusion

HASHIRAMA IS THE ULTIMATE HOKAGE

why??

Spoiler:

Because Hashirama did NOTHING wrong as Hokage!!

Spoiler:

I do not mean to sound like a jerk but it is true! WHat did Hashirama do wrong?

So now hopefully everyone knows why Hashirama is the best hokage (and kage)... at least IMO

Hashirama let Madara live and steal his DNA.

[Bazk]

you cant say that about minato -.- take away his means to teleport and he is worthless no take away madaras sharingan he would suck take away the 1st hokages wood style worthless such a stupid argument and that you havent seen the 2nd hokages fighting skills would only make him better. and what is that about he was not a good sensor ninja, he put down his finger to the ground and within 2sec he located how many ninjas there where but yeah thats not good at all

[PrinceofPeace]

Originally Posted by paradigm1977

OK, but you missed the part where I mentioned that Hashirama was not Hokage when the village was built. So you can't have that argument or the treaty. He was a great warrior and leader then. He was not a hokage then.

Hashirama was not yet hokage but he was still the best Hokage! Even if you do not count the things he did before-hand! They are still qualities of Hashirama and like I said there would be no leaf village without him.

Say what? is Edo Tensei sinister if you raise your fallen comrades and they tell you that the enemy is heading west...to the village!!!! What if you can raise that enemy spy you killed and force him to tell you everything he knows of his village? I don't count either as sinister. "Oh no! they killed our most skilled medic nin," "don't worry, I'll raise her/him from the dead, to give unlimited heals!"

that is pretty biased don't cha think?
You just gave the advnatages of the jutsu but you did not even think of the cost! You have to kill someone and use that body as a sacrifice to bring back your comrade from the dead. It is wrong to play with the dead! Who has the right to play god and bring back to dead! The dead should stay dead! The jutsu requires a lot of prep and you take away the free will of the person and control them! Bottom line is we have not seen how Tobirama used the jutsu! He was not good enough to use/perfect it while Oro was able to. And as I said before Thanks to Tobirama a lot of lives have been abused and it fell into the wrong hands. Nobody uses Edo Tensi besides bad guys! THe good guys would not go so low to call ppl from the dead to retrive info or heal ppl! why?? CUZ IT IS WRONG! It is too risky ! Tobirama could not always control the vitcum! Even Sasori broke out of edo tensi and Madara who were being controlled by Kabuto who was the best at edo tensi. Overall Edo tensi is not a good feat of Tobirama's!!




Kisame likely has more chakra, but I'm going by Narutopedia. When the Water Dragon Bullet technique was shown, it took 44 hand seals. Tobirama could do it with one hand. Hiruzen went to a powerfull fire attack right away, when he realized it was him vs the 1st and 2nd. The second blocked and counterattacked with the same water wall jutsu. That was against a fellow kage. And more according to narutopedia. Tobirama could use jets of water to bring enemies to him. Why didn't Kisame?

Wow you are trusting Narutopedia!?!?
Here Narutopedica is not a liked/trusted source! It is created by fans for fans so bassically saying you got your info there is not valid. It is a nice reference but it has mistakes in it. For example just because Tobi can use Water Dragon Bullet with one hand seal does not make him the best at water ninjutsu! IT just means he is good with hand seals! Giant Shark Missle is a water style ninjutsu and it can beat ANY water style ninjutsu that Tobirama throws at Kisame! Kisame could have countered while attacking Hiruzne with Giant Water Missile or with his 1,000 shark army. Idk why Kisame did not... but the better questions are
-Why Tobirama can not breath under water?
-Why TObirama does not have any water style summonings?
-WHy Tobirama can not create as much water as Kisame?
-WHy Kisame has better qualitity/quantity water style ninjutsu?
-WHy Kisame is better OVERALL
DO NOT COME AT MY KISAME's NECK!! lol jk ... but seriously Tobirama has nothing on Kisame
GIANT WATER SHARK MISSILE... GG

Couldn't beat 20 nin? You mean the "kinkaku force" of elite kumogekure ninja. That's what their rep was. So lets say they are at least 20 jounin from another village. Only Minato had the established skill set for that many skilled enemies to be taken down so fast, that you don't have to watch your back. At least Minato and Hashirama only had two enemies to throw ninjutsu at you. You focus on the offensive power but not the threat to defense that 20 enemies bring. I'll give you some advantage, but really we cant gauge a comparison.

Kurama & Madara >>>>>>>>Kinkaku force
Madara>>>>>>>>>>Kinkaku force
Kurama>>>>>>>>>>>Kinkaku force
Hashirama defeating Kurama and Madara is a better feat than whatever Tobirama defeated. Tobirama barely beat the Gold & Silver Bros!
Hashirama would have also beaten those ninja with Advent of following trees!! Hiruzen would have stood a better chance than Tobirama due to Enma and due to Hirzuen's hype and ninjutsu! I would even say Tsunade would win due to her AMAZING healing powers and a spitting acid Kataysu! Sooooo basscially Tobirama is the WEAKEST hokage!! I would rather fight 20 jonin ninja than a bijju and the greatest Uchiha of all time. QUALITIY>>>>>QUANTITY
BTW the 3RK took down an ARMY of ninja

He also had the sword of the thundergod. The rep with that sword is that if you know how to use it, you cannot be defeated. Perhaps an exageration. But that's still a lot of rep. It was given by Aoi

lol you really think that tool was a good feat? It was defeated by 2 genin for crying out loud! Also it was just a tool so without it he would be even weaker. Plus how lame is Tobirama for the tool to be stolen by a lil gennin!!! You are just making Tobirama look bad! Unlike Minato and Tobirama ...Hashirama does not depend on tools! Hashirama rarely uses tools!

Overall Tobirama is the weakest Hokage. BTW in the manga he only has 3 jutsu's lol what a joke

Didn't trust the Uchiha? He gave them the Police Force as a sign of good faith. unless you want to believe Tobi and Madara's point of view. I still dispute the jutsu as heiness since it could be used to protect the village.

Again this is very one sided! Do you know why he gave them the Police Force???

Spoiler:

Because he did not trust the Uchiha's!! The Police Force was made to distance the Uchiha from the village! Not only that but ANBU ninja were constantly guarding them and making sure that they did not rebel! This is NOT a lie! Itachi and the 3HK and Danzo (and I think Oro/Kakashi) and now Saskue knew this was true! This is why The Uchiha's did not trust the village and wanted to rebel!

He established the entire ninja system. He taught the 3rd, Danzo, and the elders. He had more to do with passing down the will of fire than hashirama. He did it though his students. Who did Hashirama teach?

Establishing the village is the only thing I give Tobirama good credit for cuz he was not the best teacher!
-He taught Sarutobi (who was also taught be Hashirama)
-he taught Danzo ( bassically Tobirama raised a young man who is evil and selfish and teams up with bad guys like Oro and Hanzo!! Danzo almost got the leaf destoyed... Hashirama did NOT teach this one)
-He taught the elders (the elders sucK!! They were pro Uchiha Massacure!! And they do not believe in Naruto nor Tsunade.... the elders have done nothing but caused trouble)
Wow who did Hashirama teach... your kidding right? Hashirama passed down THE WILL OF FIRE and he helped teach Tobirama

What prep? Kabuto called the coffins right up when Tobi ran after him. How do you know he wouldn't use it in battle. What if Kurama attacks? He can't raise his brother to help?
It would be wrong/embrassing to call on his brother ! Tobirama is hokage so he should take care of any issue! Is Tobirama going to summon Hashirama every time he needs help like how to run the village!?!?! To bring someone back from the dead is wrong and a whimp move! you are bassically getting someone else to do your job! Edo tensi does need prep! You need to kill somebody first and get the person's DNA that you want to revive! Also Tobirama was the worst at using edo tensi so the zombies he summoned would not be as strong and the zombies may break out of his control


I think you are still stuck on evil uses of E/T. And never looked at the positive benefits in war time. And that jutsu was with other forbidden jutsues. Oro admitted researching them. Other villages also have forbidden jutsu. It's still the 3rds fault for letting it fall into the wrong hands. We don't need to know how Hiruzen felt. Hiruzen called himself weak for letting Oro leave.
Well that is becaus the jutsu casued more harm than good! When has it ever been used for good? Please give me the chapter and compare that good feat to Madara being returned to the battle field!!!!!!! The bad wins cuz Madara is back! There are not many benefits of edo tensi and they are not worth the trouble! Other villages have forbiden jutsu but they are not as bad as this one and not many of them have gotten in the hands of evil! Tobirama taught the third so I guess it is Tobirama's fault as well as Hirzune's fault for the jutsu getting into the wrong hands. hiruzen is weak cuz of Hiruzen's teachings! FACE IT EDO TENSI is mostly a bad jutsu and it got in the hands of evil because of him and his student! The only good use of edo tensi that we have seen

Spoiler:

Reciving closure (Sasori and Kankuro) or saying bye or "I love you one last time (Saskue n Itachi .... Tsunade n Dan)

Do you thank that is worth thousands of ninjas dying and wrongfully brining back ppl from the dead against their will? We have not seen Edo tensi used to get info! This is not a good feat for Tobirama! We do not even know if he made the jutsu while hokage and we do not know his intentions of edo tensi

Tobirama imporved the village the most while having hokage status. Inspired the 3rd and the 3rds advisors. This ensured the Will of fire to be passed down. He also trained Danzo.

Yes and that is the main thing he has done ... which is not that hard! He organized the village! Hashirama did Most of the work to make the village! Bassically.. Hashairam made the picture but Tobirama just colored it in! Tobirama is not a good teacher his students suck and they caused most of the promblems
-Uchicha Massacure
-Invasion of the Sound/Sand
-Trying to keep Naruto in the village and not on missions
-Letting Oro go free
Tobirama passsed on the Will of Fire but without Hashiram their would be nothing to pass on


Did not do the most work while a HOKAGE. established work was earlier.
Everyone respected Tobirama. (the Uchiha's did neiteher did the Kumo ninja)
Uchiha treaty yes., Land of Fire, yes. Tobirama made a treaty with a warring country. Kumogekure. Hashirama did not!!! which is harder to negotiate?(hashirama gave them bijju as a sign of peace)
The rest I agree.



Hashirama let Madara live and steal his DNA.
(that is sooo false! Hashirama thought that he killed Madara and did not know that his DNA was stolen)

My point is Hashirama did NOTHING wrong as Hokage while the rest made many mistakes! (Unless you count Hashirama unknowingly getting his DNA taken away and Madara surviving)

@Bazk

-No offense but I can say that about Minato cuz he is overhyped! Unlike Minato Hashirama's abilities were gained through hard work and are part of who he is! Wood Style is something genetic that can not be taken away!
On the other hand
A FTG kuani is just a tool and can be taken away! THey can run out and it is not recieved through hard work!

A powerful ninja should not depend on tools but his nartural ability! Even without Wood STyle Hashirama would still be able to beat Minato!

We have an idea of Tobirama's fighting skillz and the conclusion is ... HE SUCKS!!! He was almost killed by The GOld and Silver Bros and we do not even know if he defeated the 20 kumo nin

That is not a very impressive sensor abitliy compared to karin, Hinata, C, Shino, nor Akamaru
Tobirama was just able to find out how many there were and not how strong they were are if they were coming in pacts or if they had a weapon

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Overall
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Hashirama is the BEST hokage cuz he only made 0-1 mistakes

while the others made MANY mistakes

[Hugo790]

Yes because of his will of fire and his personality, not to mention teleporting and also naruto's father

[PrinceofPeace]

Minato was not the best hokage
-Hashirama developed and passed down the WILL OF FIRE
-Hashirama personalitiy lead him to make a treaty and be well respeted/feared/liked
-Teleproting is useless without FTG kunai
-Hashirama was the grandather of Tsuande and Brother to Tobirama and Wife of the first person to contain Kurama

[Vivi]

Gotta go with Tobirama.

[PrinceofPeace]

lol and why ???

[Bazk]

yeah there was no hard work on learning to teleport without using any kind of seals he just woke up one day and wrote it do kunai then threw it and was like meh but i will still use it
and wood style is useless without hands such a stupid argument taking away his main power and saying he is no good, with that logic hashirama was not skilled at all he just had good parents and good genetics because he didnt have parkinson so he could use his hands

[PrinceofPeace]

Tools are most likey to be taken away than hands! BTW Hashirama does not need hand signs for some of his jutus! What I am saying is Minato relies too much on the FTG kunai!
Actually we do not know who his parents were! They may not have had wood style cuz he is the only known Senju to have wood style!

Anyway forget this argument this does not define who is the best hokage! The point is Minato made more mistakes than Hashirama!

[Bazk]

and hashirama relies too much on his wood style

[PrinceofPeace]

lol the point was ninja tools are easier to be taken away than a geneic ability! Just please drop it and move on! Fine I made a "stupid" point can we look at the bigger picture now please?
Do you think that Minato is the best hokage afterall he only did one thing! Hashirama did the exact same thing in a harder situation and MORE!! If you think Minato is the best Hokage you are just a crazy fan!

Tobirama only organized the village and it would have happened evantually and could have been done by anyone!

Hiruzen did NOTHING for his village pollitcially and he should have killed Oro when he had the chance
.
Tsuande did the most to our knowledge cuz we have seen her the most which is why she is my 2nd pick! SHe healed many ppl and inherited the village in a crumy state! Plus she is playing a major role in the war!!

Anyway Like I said this will not define who is the better kage!! Like I said before Minato has made more mistakes than Hashirama
-Failed in battle and Obito escaped
-Kurama killed Kurama and Minato leaving his son as an orpahn
-Was not back in time to save Obito (nor Rin?)
-Politically did not do anything for the village but protect it once

The only mistake for Hashirama was that
-Madara escaped alive and took his cells without Hashirama knowing

But Hashirama makes up for it by
-Creating and passing down THE WILL of FIRE
-Protected the village from Madara/Kurama
-Sealed kurama into Mito
-Distrubeted Bijju to other villages
-Respected World Wide (and his powers were tought of as fairy tales)
-Great teacher (of Hiruzen and Tobirama)

IMO the order of best hokage from best to worst (1-best)
1-Hashirama( for obvious reasons)

2-Tsunade (healed many vital ppl like Kakashi and improved the medical division, plus she is trying very hard in the war. Helped Rebuild the village! Constantly healed and saved ppl during the Pain Invasion.)

3-Tobirama (organized the village and fought against Kumo ninjas twice and taught powerful ninja)

4-Minato (did not do anything for the village politically! The only thing he did was save the village ONCE)

5-Hiruzen (he is all hype! He protected the village once but failed to kill Oro! He did nothing to improve the village)

[paradigm1977]

Originally Posted by PrinceofPeace

My point is Hashirama did NOTHING wrong as Hokage while the rest made many mistakes! (Unless you count Hashirama unknowingly getting his DNA taken away and Madara surviving)

so because Hashirama didn't know Madara got away and with a DNA sample, you give him a free pass...and say no mistakes. And that makes more sense than good wartime use of ET.

Originally Posted by PrinceofPeace

that is pretty biased don't cha think?
You just gave the advnatages of the jutsu but you did not even think of the cost! You have to kill someone and use that body as a sacrifice to bring back your comrade from the dead. It is wrong to play with the dead! Who has the right to play god and bring back to dead! The dead should stay dead! The jutsu requires a lot of prep and you take away the free will of the person and control them! Bottom line is we have not seen how Tobirama used the jutsu! He was not good enough to use/perfect it while Oro was able to. And as I said before Thanks to Tobirama a lot of lives have been abused and it fell into the wrong hands. Nobody uses Edo Tensi besides bad guys! THe good guys would not go so low to call ppl from the dead to retrive info or heal ppl! why?? CUZ IT IS WRONG! It is too risky ! Tobirama could not always control the vitcum! Even Sasori broke out of edo tensi and Madara who were being controlled by Kabuto who was the best at edo tensi. Overall Edo tensi is not a good feat of Tobirama's!!

So it's ok to kill your enemy with ninjutsu and leave them on the battlefield. But it's not ok to kill them as part of a sacrifice for your Edo tensei ninjutsu to bring another enemy back to life to interrogate them? The cost you say I forgot is one enemy to bring back one of yours. Or two enemies to bring one of them back for interrogation.

Originally Posted by PrinceofPeace

Do you thank that is worth thousands of ninjas dying and wrongfully brining back ppl from the dead against their will? We have not seen Edo tensi used to get info! This is not a good feat for Tobirama! We do not even know if he made the jutsu while hokage and we do not know his intentions of edo tensi

Originally Posted by PrinceofPeace

To bring someone back from the dead is wrong and a whimp move! you are bassically getting someone else to do your job! Edo tensi does need prep! You need to kill somebody first and get the person's DNA that you want to revive! Also Tobirama was the worst at using edo tensi so the zombies he summoned would not be as strong and the zombies may break out of his control

And using ET is not a wimp move, it's a boss move. Is Tobi's T/S ninjutsu fair? how about minato's FTG? Rinnegan? Tsukoyomi? How about fighting against Kamui? And you are comparing Kabuto lessoning the restrictions of his ET seal, to give the ETs there own personality, to a weakness on Tobirama's part. No that was Kabuto's strategy. You don't get that argument either. Oro didn't lose control of the 1st and 2nd. And you also didn't point out that the more/number of ETs controlled at once affects.... your ability to control them. As kabuto told Tobi. That is how Sasori escaped, and Sai's brother. Kabuto's strategy and Oro's strategy was to fight with them. Just like it was kabutos strategy to lessen the restrictions. Yet you don't think Tobirama is allowed his own strategy of using them for intelligence or medic use? How about this? Good guys are inherently more likely to use ET in a way that benefits their village. bad guys use ETs to benefit themselves. I say that strategy is allowed.

Originally Posted by PrinceofPeace

It would be wrong/embrassing to call on his brother ! Tobirama is hokage so he should take care of any issue! Is Tobirama going to summon Hashirama every time he needs help like how to run the village!?!?!

Sarcasm won't help your cause. An attack like that is a once in a long while to a one time responsibility of a hokage. It's not a frequent thing.

I think you lost this part of the argument. He just didn't trust others to use ET, because it was dangerous and powerful.

Originally Posted by PrinceofPeace

Here Narutopedica is not a liked/trusted source! It is created by fans for fans so bassically saying you got your info there is not valid. It is a nice reference but it has mistakes in it. For example just because Tobi can use Water Dragon Bullet with one hand seal does not make him the best at water ninjutsu! IT just means he is good with hand seals! Giant Shark Missle is a water style ninjutsu and it can beat ANY water style ninjutsu that Tobirama throws at Kisame! Kisame could have countered while attacking Hiruzne with Giant Water Missile or with his 1,000 shark army. Idk why Kisame did not... but the better questions are
-Why Tobirama can not breath under water?
-Why TObirama does not have any water style summonings?
-WHy Tobirama can not create as much water as Kisame?
-WHy Kisame has better qualitity/quantity water style ninjutsu?
-WHy Kisame is better OVERALL
DO NOT COME AT MY KISAME's NECK!! lol jk ... but seriously Tobirama has nothing on Kisame
GIANT WATER SHARK MISSILE... GG

You ask why didn't Tobirama do this ninjutsu and that... I'll tell you. One is that when Kisami created that giant Orb of water, he was powered up with chakra from the 8 tails. It wasn't all his own chakra. So he could create more water than usual. A second reason is because if Tobirama created the usual giant flood wave Kisami rode on, then what's his brother and Oro gonna float on? 3rd, the jutsues have powered up over the course of the series. Why can't he breath underwater forever? come on... he doesn't have gills like Kisami. It has nothing to due with water technique. The "Great Shark Bullet technique," is great if it hits. It's not the widest attack out there. And using one handed seals is the mark of a genious, something never credited to Kisame anyway. You don't see summons by Tobirama so you figure he has none? How much screentime has kisami gotten? Come on.. hope you don't think kisami can defeat Tobirama. Tobirama can use genjutsu. where's Kisami's tech for that? Where's Kisami's S/T ninjutsu? So no Kisami is not better overall. Any Konoha Kage could defeat him.

Originally Posted by PrinceofPeace

Kurama & Madara >>>>>>>>Kinkaku force
Madara>>>>>>>>>>Kinkaku force
Kurama>>>>>>>>>>>Kinkaku force
Hashirama defeating Kurama and Madara is a better feat than whatever Tobirama defeated. Tobirama barely beat the Gold & Silver Bros!
Hashirama would have also beaten those ninja with Advent of following trees!! Hiruzen would have stood a better chance than Tobirama due to Enma and due to Hirzuen's hype and ninjutsu! I would even say Tsunade would win due to her AMAZING healing powers and a spitting acid Kataysu! Sooooo basscially Tobirama is the WEAKEST hokage!! I would rather fight 20 jonin ninja than a bijju and the greatest Uchiha of all time. QUALITIY>>>>>QUANTITY
BTW the 3RK took down an ARMY of ninja

So you think Kurama is that much more powerful than a group of 20 elite ninja? Ok, why didn't Kurama kill the Gold and Silver brothers? Why is it that 2 Akatsuki members at a time, sometimes one, can capture a jinchurike? Do you remember that the Bijuu are weaker when not channeled through a host? It's because they are wild and don't use strategy. It's established that they are weaker without a person to guide them. Kisame took on a jinchurike by himself, yet he would have been killed by Jiraiya if not for Itachi's Ame. Can Jiraiya kill 20 elite ninja at the same time? No, he can't. And you have no proof Hashirama defeated kurama and Madara. Not yet. One, he had help, and two Madara split with his DNA. If Madara thinks he could lose to hashirama, then how do you know he was going all out anyway? Since he split with DNA that might have been the main plan. He doesnt need to risk defeat if he thinks he can get more powerful later. Until it's proven Madara slinked away in defeat as a last ditch option, you don't get this either. On top of that, Madara's attack was obviously to fight Hashirama, because hashirama was supposed to have to defend the city vs Madara and Kurama. Konoha being attacked was most likely the bait to draw out hashirama. So he didn't save the city.

What chapter did it say Hashirama taught Tobirama? Honestly, Tobirama looks older. So I hope you didn't just pick Hahsirama because he was hokage first and figure, he must have taught Tobirama. And then use that as a point against me.

Originally Posted by PrinceofPeace

Wow who did Hashirama teach... your kidding right? Hashirama passed down THE WILL OF FIRE and he helped teach Tobirama

Originally Posted by PrinceofPeace

But Hashirama makes up for it by
-Creating and passing down THE WILL of FIRE

You are also wrong in saying that hashirama created the will of fire. He did not. That came down the line from his Senju ancesters. You claim there would be nothing to pass down if not for Hashirama? He and Tobirama got it from the clan. And Tobirama passed it to hiruzen to the sennin to naruto. Sure Hashirama trained Hiruzen too, but he was on Tobirama's team. So that is the tie breaker. Any Will of Fire claim for influencing generations goes to Tobirama.

Originally Posted by PrinceofPeace

Yes and that is the main thing he has done ... which is not that hard! He organized the village! Hashirama did Most of the work to make the village! Bassically.. Hashairam made the picture but Tobirama just colored it in! Tobirama is not a good teacher his students suck and they caused most of the promblems
-Uchicha Massacure
-Invasion of the Sound/Sand
-Trying to keep Naruto in the village and not on missions
-Letting Oro go free

You are wrong in giving hashirama credit for essentially creating the village/"creating the picture" (when he wasn't hokage, the topic of this thread) and Tobirama "colored it". Awesome, Hashirama is a great carpenter with wood style. You give him "Hokage" props for that. Let's not, because that isn't a hokage role. I would have done the same thing. Any wood user would do that. Like Yamato did. You don't get that either. Now you want to blame Tobirama for Hiruzen's personality. Well should we blame Hashirama for having no students of his own of note. His only genetic connection is to Tsunade. But Hiruzens training couldn't overcome her genetic predisposition to gambling addiction and not wanting to be a medic Nin anymore and leaving Konoha. The elders had to get things going to pressure Jiraiya, another lazy bum to bring her back. Using personalities of students wont really work well for either of us and isn't indicative of the talent of the teacher. Why blame Hiruzen for the invasion of the sound? He was old by then. and didn't work security. No hokage does. If you want to plave all of Hiruzen's faults on Tobirama, then I take away ALL your will of fire pass down that went through Hiruzen. Which means I get Naruto. He, jiraiya, kakashi, and Minato all came through him.


I'll think more on the police force thing. You would like to say that Tobirama was wrong for establishing that to restrain Uchiha influence. So even if it was done negatively/that way, rather than a show of good faith, we should assume he was wrong to do so. And yet the 3rd wanted to work things out, but the Uchiha weren't gonna have it. I guess we also have to assume the Uchiha have to join the police force? That way it's a real negative. On this part, I have to brush up.

[Bazk]

if you read i wrote i think the 1st one was the better one not in leadership tho more in power

[Tobi is a good boy :)]

I dont think so. He was very strong and very very fast but i think the third was the best. He fought in all the wars and even was trained by the 2nd and in naruto he fights the 1st and 2nd when the sand village attacked the leaf village. He held his own fighting both