Can Minato save the Leaf?

[Godaime Kazekage]

Originally Posted by BMC1994

Yes kunais could easily kill madara they could also easily A,onoki and other top tiers in naruto. But the chances of them not being hurt by it or dodging it is simply far greater. Otherwise we would see more kunai use in the top tiers of naruto.
There are actually lots of top tiers that carry kunai, Kakashi is one example-anyway the point was that Madara can be killed by a kunai.

Pride does not stop him from susanoo spam considering he did spam it atleast 3/5 of the kagefight. Perfect susanoo would be out of character which he even confirmed himself. However we have seen him spam susanoo the majority of the fight. He even made wood clones each with a susanoo of their own. That is on top of the fact that a vanilla (without rinnegan/stuff) madara posseses the EMS and thus susanoo caries little to no risk regarding vision. Besides i think he used rib cage in susanoo quite early in his fight ( In fact i think it was right of the bat consering he used susanoo+meteor to 'nuke' the battlefield.)
He has never started a fight with Susano'o. In the fight you're referring to he first jumped down into the Fourth Division, shot off a fireball, did a bunch of tai/kenjutsu, some genjutsu and then used Susano'o due to Naruto and Onoki's combo. The earliest he's used it is against the Kage, because he had no other choice. Edo Madara has infinite chakra so he could use the Susano'o all he wanted and was amusing himself watching his Susano'o "army" against the Kage.
And dont forget the 17-ish year old metally instable sasuke was able to spam it in every fight in the kage summit without an ems and will do so more with an ems so the 'immense strain'/chakra is not an issue. Especially not for the man who competed someone who made pets out of bijuu.
Used twice, and never fully forming isn't really spamming, and I guess you forgot Sasuke's statement about every cell in his body aching. EMS may stop the blindness, but it still takes massive amounts of chakra to create and maintain Susano'o-hence Sasuke asking Itachi if he could still use Susano'o in their fight against Kabuto.

Not to mention at the start of his fight against naruto as soon as he grabbed the fan a susanoo-like energy radiated from it. Okay...

The speed examples were just to show that madara has no problem with speed. He basicly has a Whitebeard-complex. He appears to be one of the slowest compared to top tiers yet easily reacts and fight, and defeats characters who should be way faster then him feat wise.
We all saw A try and blitz him and even succeed. Yet madara still fought/dominated him and the other 4 kages who are no slowpokes. And that is even without mentioning how they got off panneled.
It's not hard to fight/dominate when you have infinite chakra, a perfect defense (combo of Susano'o and Preta Path) and plot armor (Onoki could have just vaporized him while he was in Susano'o since he couldn't switch to Preta in time when the army was taken out). Gaara can also take on characters much faster than him, but it's not due to his own speed, it's his sand.

The scenario you envision would be possible. But the problem is nothing prevents him from using rib cage susanoo or its other variants. Which would completely destroy any oppertunity for minato to win this fight.
Only it doesn't make sense to use it if you don't believe you're in danger. (But thank you for at least admitting that my scenario is plausible

Note that i am just using madara with only feats which are truely his own(so just sharinhax+katon+reactions) not to mention his possible use of rinnegan (aquired before death)

I even hate debating for madara but its just that susanoo eliminates any threat minato would pose. Only if he knows an attack is coming, which he wouldn't if Minato tags him. I also don't like relying on FTG in Minato threads, but unless you have a "logia" body or knowledge of the tech, it's pretty unstoppable.

@Tanduhman: Normal Madara=/= Edo Madara. Edo Madara has Rinnegan, Mokuton, infinite chakra and a regenerating body. Edo Madara is multiple tiers above normal Madara (and pretty much everyone else) in strength. I don't know how many times I've explained this here-I think I need to make a PSA thread or something. The 5 Kage would casually stomp normal Madara.

@PoP: The Madara that would have knowledge on Minato is an old geezer on life support-Minato would curbstomp. Madara couldn't give two shits that he's in Edo Form-he thinks that he (and Hashirama) are worlds above everyone else, even though the majority of his power was gifted to him by Kabuto. Madara putting Minato in a genjutsu right off the bat... feat please. Kurama running and catching up to his own TBB I hope you realize the ridiculousness of these statements.

[Bazk]

he will put up a good fight but i would bet on no

[PrinceofPeace]

@Kazekage
-So what Madara is going to overestimated him and wait for him to attack first? Do you want a Madara genjutsu feat? Over cousrse I am not talking about that Madara ! But current Madara without edo powers would have knowledge. Madara has other jutsu's than TBB

[BMC1994]

Originally Posted by BMC1994

Even if he places the tag susanoo can be pretty much activated on reflex as sasuke could activate before liger bomb did any real damage and itachi could activate it before getting fried by kirin ( And no i am not saying that it was lightning speed i am saying madara can activate susanoo before any real damage is done by rasengan)

@godaime

Kakashi is pretty much on of the few powerfull naruto character who still occasionnally uses kunai but thats not his main strenght he is only barely competing because of kamui. Gai, The jinchuriki,naruto, kabuto, jiraiya,orochimaru,tsunade basicly all the kages except minato, madara, All of akatsuki except itachi who used it once or twice etc. Kunai really do not pose a thret to any of these people unless the fight would start in the night while thier in sleep with the other guy starting with the kunai at their throat. Otherwise it wont do much.

Really susanoo can be activated when being in the middle of being thrown around/tagged by people/hit by jutsu.

My main point is even if minato minato lands the rasengan susanoo could and would be activated before the majority of the damage would be done. And from there we all knows how it ends. (Or preta'd if your willing to belief that he could do that in normal form)

Just to be clear i refer to all use of susanoo as susanoo spam mainly because of deep rooted hatred for uchihax. Still ribcage is pretty much a trade mark technique of the uchihas we have seen (except obito ofcourse).

[Godaime Kazekage]

@BMC:
Madara wasn't able to react/activate Susano'o against A (who wasn't even moving at full speed)-how the heck is he going to stop Minato slitting his throat from behind? Madara would be dead before he knew what hit him, that's the reason why Minato was so feared. Preta can't stop a kunai either, if he was able to use the ability and was keeping it active the whole time. As for the Rasengan part, I don't remember Susano'o ever mitigating the damage of a jutsu that had already hit it's target. Susano'o has a very fast activation, but it's (probably) not instantaneous and also depends on the reaction speed of the user. It is one of the worst instances of Uchihax, but it's not unstoppable as demonstrated by Gaara, Onoki, Tsunade, and Kabuto who have each circumvented/overpowered it's defenses to some degree.

[PrinceofPeace]

I got your back-up BMC
---------------------------------
Madara could not react in time.... or Madara is overconfident and did not choose to use Susanoo????? Madara did not HAVE to use Susanoo! Ay came out with a physical attack that would not do much damage. Madara underestimated his foe IN EDO FORM! Madara will not look down on his foes especially a LEAF hokage! Madara would try and crush anyone form the leaf out of pure hatred!

By the time Minato gets out and throws the FTG Kunai Madara can
-trap him in genjutsu
-activate Susanoo
-katon on the ftg kunai towards Minato
-Get onto Kurama/Kurama attacks
-Blow the FTG kunai away with the breeze from the Gunbai

It is possible to get past Susanoo but how does minato do it?

[BMC1994]

Originally Posted by Godaime Kazekage

@BMC:
Madara wasn't able to react/activate Susano'o against A (who wasn't even moving at full speed)-how the heck is he going to stop Minato slitting his throat from behind? Madara would be dead before he knew what hit him, that's the reason why Minato was so feared. Preta can't stop a kunai either, if he was able to use the ability and was keeping it active the whole time. As for the Rasengan part, I don't remember Susano'o ever mitigating the damage of a jutsu that had already hit it's target. Susano'o has a very fast activation, but it's (probably) not instantaneous and also depends on the reaction speed of the user. It is one of the worst instances of Uchihax, but it's not unstoppable as demonstrated by Gaara, Onoki, Tsunade, and Kabuto who have each circumvented/overpowered it's defenses to some degree.

I am 100 % sure that a FTG kunai is way slower then A in lightning armor.
Minato slitting his thoat from behind is not happening without any seals/kunai placed so no initial blitz for minato unless he gets prep.

The mitigating part would be itachi vs Sasuke. Where kirin already had managed to scroch/fry itachis akatsuki cloak before itachi himself took any fatal damage. Then there is also the liger bomb (but its true that it wasnt clear when it was activated during the liger bomb). I agree with you that its not instant. But it has been shown to be able to negate a large part of the damage when already/nearly tagged by the attack.

Problem with minato is he is limited to the location of his seals/kunai. A just can blitz anyone, anytime, any place (ok not really but you get what i mean). While FTG is actually very limited without any kind of prep.

Edit: Just read the OP again and what exactly is minatos standard prep. Having kunai with him? Having placed them somewhere. Really what is it?

[Godaime Kazekage]

@Prince: Obviously Madara did not react properly-he was blitzed, saying otherwise is just wrong. A sent him crashing into Mei's attack. If he could've blocked it with Susano'o he would have.
-Please tell me how Madara traps Minato in a genjutsu-unless you have a feat for that stop bringing it up. He wasn't able to put any of the Kage under genjutsu except for A after he was distracted by his concern for Tsunade.
-Madara activating Susano'o right away doesn't make sense and would seem to him to be a waste of chakra unless he had knowledge on Minato's abilities.
What is katon going to do to his kunai...? Unless you think it will melt it, and in that case you better look up the temp. it takes to melt steel.
-We all know Minato can deal with Kurama. Also, if he manages to get a contract seal off on Madara then it will be Minato and Kurama vs. Madara.
-Minato has kunai shadow clone jutsu-he can scatter them all over the place and in the scenario I wrote Minato runs with a kunai, he doesn't throw it.

@BMC: In my scenario Minato places a seal on Madara first then kills him with the blindside blitz. But now that you mention it, if Madara tries to dodge instead of knock a kunai away that Minato throws, Minato could teleport behind him and kill him. I never said the speed of a kunai thrown by Minato is faster than A-it's Minato's teleportation that is fast (and his super fast base speed and reaction feats).
-About Susano'o's mitigating effect-No-it's much more likely that Itachi wasn't able to fully form Susano'o before Kirin struck and Kirin powered through it, Itachi didn't have Susano'o active afterwards, so this is much more likely. Kirin strikes at the speed of lightning so there is no way that Itachi could start up Susano'o after being hit by it-he'd already be dead.
-I don't get where the myth of Minato can't use FTG/isn't good without prep comes from. Minato vs. A+B clearly shows that he carries kunai with him in his pouch which he can multiply and scatter with a jutsu (I call it kunai shadow clone jutsu). It takes about a second to do this.

[BMC1994]

Minatos movement may be instant but his attacks are not infact both tobi and b were able to realize that minato teleported and was about to attack them. B even managed to react to it.

And then we also have a less experienced susanoo user managing to activate ribcage susanoo in the middle of liger bomb.

Why would susanoo only power thorugh his clothes its lightning it is not supposed to 'spare' itachi casual clothes. Although the whole scene is not the best logic out there. Itachi activating it before being fried makes more sense then what you said. Besides he did have more time to activate(he could have initiated it as soon as he saw the giant kirin but it could have activated just before he was fired but thats just my input). considering the giant kirin that appeared and did a dance before the attack struck.

The liger bomb example still stands. Not the fastest attack out there but still activated in the middle of an attack.

Even with that he still failed to tag a A with a seal or place kunai behind him which again is my point of he is not starting of with a kunai behind madara and madara is no ghost through which kunai phase through like tobi.

Minatos Attack have been seen and reacted to. Which basicly are the conditions for activating susanoo on time.

[Godaime Kazekage]

Originally Posted by BMC1994

Minatos movement may be instant but his attacks are not infact both tobi and b were able to realize that minato teleported and was about to attack them. B even managed to react to it.
Totally false about Tobi-he only realized Minato had teleported after he got Rasengan'd to the back. B was only able to save A because he had full vision of the battlefield and must have figured out Minato would counterattack A. Although the mechanics of that save doesn't really make sense anyway-how could B's tentacle cross multiple meters and catch up to a blitzing A? Mostly just a plot save for Raikage who we know survived to this day.

And then we also have a less experienced susanoo user managing to activate ribcage susanoo in the middle of liger bomb. Okay...since when is Liger Bomb a fast attack?

Why would susanoo only power thorugh his clothes its lightning it is not supposed to 'spare' itachi casual clothes. Although the whole scene is not the best logic out there. Itachi activating it before being fried makes more sense then what you said. Besides he did have more time to activate(he could have initiated it as soon as he saw the giant kirin but it could have activated just before he was fired but thats just my input). considering the giant kirin that appeared and did a dance before the attack struck.
I'm not exactly sure, my interpretation is that the incomplete Susano'o was enough to block the brunt of the blast and then a little bit of the lightning made it through to Itachi.

The liger bomb example still stands. Not the fastest attack out there but still activated in the middle of an attack. Ok, I agree.

Even with that he still failed to tag a A with a seal or place kunai behind him which again is my point of he is not starting of with a kunai behind madara and madara is no ghost through which kunai phase through like tobi.
Well, he would've taken out A without B's convenient save (there was a kunai right behind A-Minato warped to it ) and the fight had lasted maybe 1 second, he just hadn't placed a tag yet. After the collision they got the retreat signal and he had no desire to fight them anyway.
-I believe I said "if Madara dodges" not phases. Minato also has insanely fast base speed and could place a tag after engaging Madara in taijutsu.

Minatos Attack have been seen and reacted to. Which basicly are the conditions for activating susanoo on time.
See above-they haven't been.

In yellow.

[PrinceofPeace]

Originally Posted by Godaime Kazekage

@Prince: Obviously Madara did not react properly-he was blitzed, saying otherwise is just wrong. A sent him crashing into Mei's attack. If he could've blocked it with Susano'o he would have. (actually Madara was able to react to Ay! If you look closely Madara was able to lift his arms and cross them to block AY's physical attack. So saying he could not activate Susanoo in time is not necessarily true. ALso Madara was being cocky in edo form and Ay attacked him with a physical attack so Madara knew he could tank it. Madara did activate Susanoo before Mei and Ay attacked again)

-Please tell me how Madara traps Minato in genjutsu-unless you have a feat for that stop bringing it up. He wasn't able to put any of the Kage under genjutsu except for A after he was distracted by his concern for Tsunade.( Madara has the ability to use Tsyukuomi so with eye contact Minato will be K.O. at the bat! Minato does not have experience with genjutsu on that level. And Minato does not know to not look in his eyes cuz Guy was the first to come up with that strategy! Ay was shocked that someone on his level was caught in his genjutsu so you think Minato is far above Ay to not look in his eyes at all during the battle?!? Minato would look at Madara while throwing the FTG kuani and as soon as he throws it Madara looks into his eyes and traps him in a genjutsu)

-Madara activating Susano'o right away doesn't make sense and would seem to him to be a waste of chakra unless he had knowledge on Minato's abilities. (Madara would not be so cocky not being in edo form. Also Madara would see that he is the Leaf Hokage (or at least a leaf ninja) so Madara would not go easy on him. Madara hates the Leaf and would not hold back. Also the Zetsu he had before death would have knoweldge of Minato and could have informed Madara about him. This is Madara in his prime but he has all experiences before/during/after life.)

What is katon going to do to his kunai...? Unless you think it will melt it, and in that case you better look up the temp. it takes to melt steel.
(idk the temp of melting or Madara's fire but Minato would not teleport into the fire when the FTG kunai are in it and the fire could at least send them off course)

-We all know Minato can deal with Kurama. Also, if he manages to get a contract seal off on Madara then it will be Minato and Kurama vs. Madara.
(Kurama would attack from long range and try not to get close up to Minato. Also Kurama hates both of them so he would try to kill both of them maybe even Minato first. The only wrong thing Madara did to Kurama is put him under genjutsu but Minato defeated Kurama and fought him and sealed half of his power away and sealed him inside a lil baby..... so Kurama would hate Minato more since Minato did more bad things to kurama)

-Minato has kunai shadow clone jutsu-he can scatter them all over the place and in the scenario I wrote Minato runs with a kunai, he doesn't throw it.
(One swing of the Gunbai and all of the FTG kuani go offcourse and if Minato runs towards him the Gunbai can at least slow him down or push him back. If he ran with the FTG kunai Kurama would send a TBB his way )

.

Countered!

You keep up your end BMC it's Double Team Time

[Godaime Kazekage]

Madara's "defense" was pure reflex/muscle memory-when someone attacks your head you put up your arms to defend against it instinctively even though it's not the most effective block. Also, in this case he watched as A attacked him-with a tag Minato will be attacking from behind in a complete surprise attack.

First off, Madara has never been shown to use Tsukuyomi. People have been fighting the Uchiha for years and it's common knowledge not to look in their eyes. Chiyo knew about it and Minato was the freaking Kage of the Leaf Village, he knows about Uchiha abilities. Madara obviously can't put any one of Kage level under a genjutsu unless he catches them first and makes them look in his eyes. If it was so easy for the Uchiha to use genjutsu on their opponents then all of the Kage would've been easily taken out as well as Naruto, B, Kakashi, and Gai. I can't believe you're trying to argue this.

Everything about Madara's character contradicts your argument. He's not cocky because he's an Edo, he's cocky because that's his personality. He tells Kabuto that his power is "his own" even though he was given Mokuton, infinite chakra, and a regenerating body. Even if Madara would take Minato seriously (I don't know why he would if he doesn't know who he is) it still would make no sense to use a jutsu that drains massive amounts of chakra and "makes every cell in your body ache" if he didn't have to use it.

...Not even going to respond to the fireball one-there's no need.

No just no. Kurama hated Minato before, but now he respects him as shown in Chapter 597. He also hates Madara more than anyone else-I thought this was obvious, he's stated multiple times how much he dislikes Madara. Kurama's only long range attack would be bad news for Madara since Minato can redirect it.

1. Gunbai doesn't work like that. It's kinda like Yagura's water mirror, reflecting an attack.
2. Kurama sending a TBB at Minato when he's next to Madara...? Yeah that's a great tactic.

[PrinceofPeace]

Originally Posted by Godaime Kazekage

Madara's "defense" was pure reflex/muscle memory-when someone attacks your head you put up your arms to defend against it instinctively even though it's not the most effective block.It is not the most impreesive but is very impressive that Madara could even THINK and then react in time Also, in this case he watched as A attacked him-with a tag Minato will be attacking from behind in a complete surprise attack.
How would even Minato put a tag on Madara?!?! Minato would have to use his FTG Kunai and in that time Madara can get his susanoo up and ready or
trap him in a genjutsu
0r
quickly use amaterasu


First off, Madara has never been shown to use Tsukuyomi (yet he has the ability either way Madara has genjutsu cuz he used it on Ay so it does not HAVE to be Tsukyomi). People have been fighting the Uchiha for years and it's common knowledge not to look in their eyes (Minato looked into Obito's eyes! Minato would not be as strong if he could not see his opponents! He is not as good as Guy in that area). Chiyo knew about it and Minato was the freaking Kage of the Leaf Village, he knows about Uchiha abilities. (she was more expreienced and she fought the Uchiha's before hand... has Minato ?!? Has he even been in a genjutsu! He has not shown great chakra control) Madara obviously can't put any one of Kage level under a genjutsu unless he catches them first and makes them look in his eyes. If it was so easy for the Uchiha to use genjutsu on their opponents then all of the Kage would've been easily taken out as well as Naruto, B, Kakashi, and Gai. I can't believe you're trying to argue this.
BELIEVE IT... sorry I had to lol

Everything about Madara's character contradicts your argument. He's not cocky because he's an Edo, he's cocky because that's his personality. He tells Kabuto that his power is "his own" even though he was given Mokuton, infinite chakra, and a regenerating body. Even if Madara would take Minato seriously (I don't know why he would if he doesn't know who he is) it still would make no sense to use a jutsu that drains massive amounts of chakra and "makes every cell in your body ache" if he didn't have to use it.
Why??
-Because Minato is a leaf ninja
-Especially cuz Minato is a Hokage
-Zetsu tells Madara about Minato
Overall Madara HATES the Leaf so he would not go easy

...Not even going to respond to the fireball one-there's no need.
whatever idk why but It was not my fav counter anyhow

No just no. Kurama hated Minato before, but now he respects him as shown in Chapter 597. He also hates Madara more than anyone else-I thought this was obvious, he's stated multiple times how much he dislikes Madara. Kurama's only long range attack would be bad news for Madara since Minato can redirect it.
Redirecting a TBB takes time and it is not like Minato and Kurama would team up against Madara! He would most likely attack both. Either way Madara would be expecting Minato to seal/get Kurama out of Madara's control and the only way Madara knows that Minato could do this is with contact.

1. Gunbai doesn't work like that. It's kinda like Yagura's water mirror, reflecting an attack.
Actually the Gunbai is bassicaly and OverPowered Fan and if you look at the Generation feats of it the Gunbai can blow stuff away (this is a great combo with his fire jutsu's)
2. Kurama sending a TBB at Minato when he's next to Madara...? Yeah that's a great tactic.
Of course Kurama would aim for Minato and make sure Madara is not in the crossfire! Minto's only choice is to teleport the bomb away which takes time! Minato can try and teleport himself away but that just allows Madara to find Minato and for Madara to get on top of Kurama and for Madara to activate Susanoo

In multiple colors

[Godaime Kazekage]

Madara's Reactions: If you think instinctively putting up an inefficient block is a good reaction than ok. He was thinking about Mei's technique btw.

Tagging: Minato has no problem tagging fast opponents, he's been capable of tagging every opponent he's fought against including fast people like Tobi and A (I know he didn't get a tag off on A, but he had A dead to rights before B's miracle save). All he has to do is touch him or something he's connected to (like the fan)-not that hard. I think you're forgetting that Minato's still faster than pretty much everyone in the Narutoverse in base. Minato easily dodges the telegraphed attack of Amaterasu with FTG (Madara has never been shown to use it anyway). We've already been over genjutsu and Susano'o.

Genjutsu/Eye Contact: When did Minato look in Obito's eyes during their fight? Unless you're referring to the time when he was together with him as his sensei. Even if he did, he came out okay, because Obito never put him in a genjutsu and he's capable of doing that too. You're statement about Guy is an assumption and irrelevant. Plenty of non-Uchiha have been demonstrated to fight effectively against Uchiha.

Minato not knowing about Uchiha abilities when he was Hokage and sensei to an Uchiha... Minato having no experience with genjutsu even though he's a Kage... Minato not having good chakra control despite being a master of sealing techniques... My reaction to all of this: *facepalm*

Madara's Character: Do you think Madara would go all out on Moegi because she's a leaf ninja? We don't even know that Madara has any intel on Minato (as Vivi brought up the most recent chapter made it seem as if Zetsu had no idea who Minato was).

Kurama: Why would current Kurama attack Minato when he's now friends with Naruto? If you go backwards to before being sealed in Naruto he has no reason to hate Minato. Either way he'll attack Madara and not Minato if he's released from the sharingan control. Again, Madara has no intel on Minato, the only way he'd know about him would be through Zetsu (who also appears not to know him) and then he'd be an old fart on life support.

Final Part: The OP said anime feats, not game feats, but since it's your thread-whatever. If he's far enough away from Minato to use a TBB he's not going to be able to close the gap in the time it takes Minato to redirect it. Your response to Minato teleporting away doesn't really add anything to the argument for Madara and is just confusing

[PrinceofPeace]

Originally Posted by Godaime Kazekage

Madara's Reactions: If you think instinctively putting up an inefficient block is a good reaction than ok. He was thinking about Mei's technique btw.
Minato is going for the kill and Madara will be as well. Are you saying Madara would win this with knowledge? I am saying Madara would win this from knolwedge recieved from zetsu and Hatred of the leaf!

Tagging: Minato has no problem tagging fast opponents, he's been capable of tagging every opponent he's fought against including fast people like Tobi and A (I know he didn't get a tag off on A, but he had A dead to rights before B's miracle save). All he has to do is touch him or something he's connected to (like the fan)-not that hard. I think you're forgetting that Minato's still faster than pretty much everyone in the Narutoverse in base. Minato easily dodges the telegraphed attack of Amaterasu with FTG (Madara has never been shown to use it anyway). We've already been over genjutsu and Susano'o.
Sorry... um explain how Minato tags Madara with Susanoo up?

Genjutsu/Eye Contact: When did Minato look in Obito's eyes during their fight? Unless you're referring to the time when he was together with him as his sensei. Even if he did, he came out okay, because Obito never put him in a genjutsu and he's capable of doing that too. You're statement about Guy is an assumption and irrelevant. Plenty of non-Uchiha have been demonstrated to fight effectively against Uchiha.
Agreed NO GENJUTSU

Minato not knowing about Uchiha abilities when he was Hokage and sensei to an Uchiha... Minato having no experience with genjutsu even though he's a Kage... Minato not having good chakra control despite being a master of sealing techniques... My reaction to all of this: *facepalm*
Seriously? Facepalm? How is sealing good chakra control? B was able to seal someone with ink clones and that is not really control. Just cuz Minato is hokage does not mean he is good with genjutsu but as we said Genjutsu is unlikely to happen to Minato

Madara's Character: Do you think Madara would go all out on Moegi because she's a leaf ninja? We don't even know that Madara has any intel on Minato (as Vivi brought up the most recent chapter made it seem as if Zetsu had no idea who Minato was).
That is going a lil far don't ya think? Mogei is not a hokage and she only wears the headband! Madara would see she is weak through Sharigan. You were saying that Minato knew so much about the Uchiha's without a lot of proof so zetsu could have had intel on Minato. Is this really coming down to knowledge?!?

Kurama: Why would current Kurama attack Minato when he's now friends with Naruto? If you go backwards to before being sealed in Naruto he has no reason to hate Minato. Either way he'll attack Madara and not Minato if he's released from the sharingan control. Again, Madara has no intel on Minato, the only way he'd know about him would be through Zetsu (who also appears not to know him) and then he'd be an old fart on life support.
This is not current Kurama this is Minato in the situation of Hashirama. So Kurama would still hate Minato for sealing him but the only difference is that minato is fighting Madara as well and not Obito!

Final Part: The OP said anime feats, not game feats, but since it's your thread-whatever. If he's far enough away from Minato to use a TBB he's not going to be able to close the gap in the time it takes Minato to redirect it. Your response to Minato teleporting away doesn't really add anything to the argument for Madara and is just confusing

The way I see Madara closing the gap is if Kurama throws him to Minato's side than Madara uses fire-style on Minato's blindspot while Minato is warping the TBB

In the OP I forgot about knowlege but whateves

[Godaime Kazekage]

With knowledge Madara's chances to win would be much higher, and Minato's fight would be at least significantly more difficult. Madara would put up Susano'o the whole time to stop Minato from teleport-blitzing him, unless he was really so arrogant that he thought Minato couldn't tag him-Minato's best strategy then would be to evade and wait for Madara to run out of stamina, this would be difficult however with Kurama running around (although Madara can't control him for very long either, according to Minato's statement during his fight with Tobi).

Without knowledge Madara wouldn't put up Susano'o unless he thought he had to. Simple reasons: It's OoC for him to do it right away, it's painful, and it eats up lots of chakra. This is also really out there, but maybe Minato could even teleport it away...he can teleport people, objects and Bijuu, why not Susano'o?

Good chakra control is basically the fundamental aspect of sealing techniques. He was the one chosen to maintain Kushina's seal at childbirth. While dying he was also able to transfer his and Kushina's chakra into Naruto's seal and also make it so Kurama and Naruto's chakra would mix naturally. Rasengan is the highest level of chakra shape manipulation-Minato developed it and could create it faster and bigger/stronger than Jiraiya or Naruto (of course Jiraiya and Naruto have stronger versions with SM and Rasenshuriken-I'm talking about normal Rasengan). These things combined with all of the other high level jutsu he's shown demonstrate he's one of the best ninja around at controlling chakra.

How could Minato not know about the Uchiha?!?! He was the Hokage and the Uchiha were one of the most important clans of the village. He even had an Uchiha on his team!! It's quite obvious that he would know about their abilities, when characters from other nations know about them. Minato even knows some info. about Madara specifically (like how long he can keep the summoning technique up) which is why he asked Obito if he was Madara. Your argument on the other hand completely revolves around whether Zetsu had knowledge on Minato and told Madara about it, which it appears he did not, since he didn't even know his name.

About Kurama: Sorry but you can't have it that way. Kurama didn't know Minato when Tobi attacked the village, you can switch Obito with Madara, but Kurama still won't know Minato, so he'll attack the guy he hates when he's released-not the guy who freed him.

You're strategy with the TBB is utterly ridiculous. Kurama throwing Madara who then shoots a fireball at Minato... You're acting like Minato's teleportation barrier takes a long time, even though that's not the case (the anime just lengthened it out to fill up time during the episode) reread the manga-there is no indication that it is slow. Evidence for this is the smoke near Kurama's mouth and his body position after the TBB is shown exploding, meaning Kurama had just fired it and wasn't sitting and waiting.

[BMC1994]

Just pointing some stuff out.
Tsukuyomi is a requirement to use susanoo. As implied by itachi and later confirmed by sauce. As such he is able to use it.

As for the Ay-fight. Madara unlike A tends not leeroy jenkins into every enemy he sees. Also madara as we have seen is not really a taijutsu type. Which removes the only way he (nearly) tagged A in their fight which was throwing up a kunai near A. Madara would most likely pressure with katon. Making it hard for minato to get close.

And really 'cell-strain'? sasuke got over that after using it two times. Itachi used it while near dead. And madara seems to endure the pain just fine. As being an edo do not remove pain as far as i know. Anyway if cell strain was a problem we would see susanoo alot less. Madara can even endure strain from PS which could be potentially more then the regular version. As for eats alot of chakra a teen has plenty of chakra to use it , Itachi near death after already using taxing techniques(tsukuyomi/amaterasu) was able to use it) not to mention legends like madara.

Your right in that tobi didnt see it coming. But bee did even 2 times now that i have watched the fight again. Once with his tentacle, and once minato put a kunai to his back he returned the favor. It just illustrates my point that his movement may be instant but his attacks are not.

So really minatos attack have been reacted too by bee . And as madara doesnt leeroy jenkins every enemy he sees minato wont be placing a tag anytime soon due to long range pressure. Also knowledge of FTG does not really matter A was able to figure it out in their short fight.

So susanoo can be used as characters have reacted(B)/were aware of(A) minatos blitzes. Which completely destroyes any chance minato would have.

[Godaime Kazekage]

Originally Posted by BMC1994

Just pointing some stuff out.
Tsukuyomi is a requirement to use susanoo. As implied by itachi and later confirmed by sauce. As such he is able to use it.
Yes, but he's never been shown to use it like Itachi-you can't compare it to Itachi's. Sasuke's never really used Tsukuyomi either except for the time against Danzo when it was a pathetic version of it. This doesn't make Minato any more likely to fall for it anyway since it also requires eye contact.

As for the Ay-fight. Madara unlike A tends not leeroy jenkins into every enemy he sees. Also madara as we have seen is not really a taijutsu type. Which removes the only way he (nearly) tagged A in their fight which was throwing up a kunai near A. Madara would most likely pressure with katon. Making it hard for minato to get close.
Since when is katon hard to dodge?-especially for someone like Minato. It also takes time to use and if the enemy gets close you're not going to be using fire style.

And really 'cell-strain'? sasuke got over that after using it two times. Itachi used it while near dead. And madara seems to endure the pain just fine. As being an edo do not remove pain as far as i know. Anyway if cell strain was a problem we would see susanoo alot less. Madara can even endure strain from PS which could be potentially more then the regular version. As for eats alot of chakra a teen has plenty of chakra to use it , Itachi near death after already using taxing techniques(tsukuyomi/amaterasu) was able to use it) not to mention legends like madara.
Itachi used it for about 30 seconds and barreled through the pain-he was already suffering from his disease, he just used willpower to finish his final act for Sasuke. Edo's have regularly lost limbs, been blown up etc. and they haven't been phased by it in the slightest-I don't think it's a stretch to say that they don't feel pain or are at least pain tolerant. The only person who's used Susano'o for an extended period of time is Edo Madara who has infinite chakra. Cell strain may come from the rapid depletion of chakra and still exists-hence my argument-why would you use a jutsu that eats up tons of chakra and causes you pain when you don't even know your opponent and have no reason to believe that you need to use it?

Your right in that tobi didnt see it coming. But bee did even 2 times now that i have watched the fight again. Once with his tentacle, and once minato put a kunai to his back he returned the favor. It just illustrates my point that his movement may be instant but his attacks are not.
The first time was a plot save for A. There is no way possible that B's tentacle could catch up to a (near) full speed A after A had a head start as well, even if you accept that B's tentacles are now top tier in speed, he had a clear view of A and could anticipate where Minato would attack. The second time was just dumb luck that he had the sword in the position he did, when you look to when Minato warps to him his sword is already there. Minato could also have easily killed him the instant he teleported, but instead he continues his conversation with A giving B and everyone else time to recognize his presence. He had no desire to kill B because he liked him, he was trying to leave earlier when A attacked him. There is no way you can react to someone instantly appearing behind you if you don't even know they can do that.

So really minatos attack have been reacted too by bee. Nope-see above, also the fact that the faster character w/ better reactions (Tobi) couldn't react supports this as well. And as madara doesnt leeroy jenkins every enemy he sees minato wont be placing a tag anytime soon due to long range pressure. Seeing as Minato can dodge and redirect attacks, I don't see this being a problem. Also knowledge of FTG does not really matter A was able to figure it out in their short fight.
It's easy to figure out that Minato can warp to his kunais if you've seen him do it, it's not easy to figure out that he's capable of placing a seal on you and warping to you whenever he feels like-because you'd already be dead by the time you could figure that out .

So susanoo can be used as characters have reacted(B)/were aware of(A) minatos blitzes. Which completely destroyes any chance minato would have.
Nope. Try again. It's also entirely plausible that Minato can warp away Susano'o.

In yellow.

[BMC1994]

Never said he could use it at itachis level just said he is able to use it.

Idk if you have read the manga but madara is far above your avarage katon. And obviously madara would use katon before minato would get close. Because there is 50m seperating them unlike in minatos other 2 fight where it couldnt have been more then 10m.

He barreled thorugh pain the entire fight as seen when he was coughing blood all the time not specifically because of susanoo. And you forgot sauce who used it quite alot and in quick succesion. You would probably say he got healed between fights but that doesnt take away the imaginairy strain in every cell. If sauce can handle maddy can too.

And why would madara not know the yellow flash? Like the hair wasnt basicly a giant ID (as seen in his fight with A) the fact that he a war hero and a kage doesnt help him much either.

How was it a plot save i doubt minatos kunai could penetrate A's raiton yoroi when chidori couldnt. And the tentacles did have a little time frame to catch up. As for bee it shows the clear difference between miantos movement and attack if he could do it instant he would have done so or atleast knock him out if he was so fond of him.

You cant react to someone instantly appearing you can to someones attack.

How is dodging and redirecting helping minato tag madara?
Tobi really is not that fast as there is a big difference between his movement speed (instant) and attack speed (far from instant as kakashi/gai could keep up). Minato suffers the same issue.

Warping away susanoo????? you lost me there.

Minato will be far to busy with dodging katons from 50m distance to close the distance.

[Godaime Kazekage]

Originally Posted by BMC1994

Never said he could use it at itachis level just said he is able to use it.
Just like he can theoretically use ST because he has Rinnegan, but until he shows it it can't be used in debates. Whether he can/cannot use it doesn't contribute anything to this fight anyway though...

Idk if you have read the manga but madara is far above your avarage katon. And obviously madara would use katon before minato would get close. Because there is 50m seperating them unlike in minatos other 2 fight where it couldnt have been more then 10m.
Idk if you have read the manga, but katon pretty much never hits anyone, regardless of the user-and Minato is the fastest character in the Narutoverse.

He barreled thorugh pain the entire fight as seen when he was coughing blood all the time not specifically because of susanoo. And you forgot sauce who used it quite alot and in quick succesion. You would probably say he got healed between fights but that doesnt take away the imaginairy strain in every cell. If sauce can handle maddy can too.
Of course healing takes away cell strain... Madara can handle the strain for a bit of time obviously, but not for a protracted fight.

And why would madara not know the yellow flash? Like the hair wasnt basicly a giant ID (as seen in his fight with A) the fact that he a war hero and a kage doesnt help him much either.
How would he know the Yellow Flash? He went into exile way before Minato's birth and his only news of the outside world would have to come from Zetsu who didn't even know Minato. And if you use that version of Madara for the fight he's gonna get curbstomped because he's an old man on life support. It's either prime Madara with no info. on Minato, or old Madara who maybe knows something about Minato. The only scenario that could work for is the Edo Madara one, but I thought we had shifted to only debating Madara and Kurama vs. Minato and even then it's not confirmed that Madara knows about Minato-he didn't know anything about Tsunade even though she's a Sannin, granddaughter to his archnemesis and "was the reason the leaf village won the Second World War".

How was it a plot save i doubt minatos kunai could penetrate A's raiton yoroi when chidori couldnt. And the tentacles did have a little time frame to catch up. As for bee it shows the clear difference between miantos movement and attack if he could do it instant he would have done so or atleast knock him out if he was so fond of him.
Minato would've at least tagged Raikage and not B making it harder for Kishi to write a situation in which all three came out of the fight alive. Sorry, but what time frame? Minato warps to his kunai and warps right back. Raikage is still moving in his Raiton armor-even if he stopped trying to go full speed after he missed it's less than a split second later (the kunai Minato left behind was still near Raikage moving at full speed) and he has all of the momentum of a full speed blitz behind him and multiple meters between himself and B.

You cant react to someone instantly appearing you can to someones attack.
There is virtually no time between teleportation and being attacked. It would take time for Madara to register that Minato had disappeared and reappeared behind him-in that time he'd already be stabbed/rasengan'd in the back of the head or had his throat slit. Tobi was completely concentrating on tracking Minato's movements and was hit before he even registered that Minato had jumped-and Tobi has some of the best reaction feats in the 'verse. Madara on the other hand does not.

How is dodging and redirecting helping minato tag madara?
It helps him avoid Madara's attacks until he gets close enough to tag. Redirecting could also do major damage to Madara, by just having Madara immolate himself with his own attack.

Tobi really is not that fast as there is a big difference between his movement speed (instant) and attack speed (far from instant as kakashi/gai could keep up). Minato suffers the same issue.
What...? Tobi not fast...? Are we talking about the same Tobi who's keeping up with Kakashi, Gai, and RM Naruto at the same time? Tobi's attack speed has nothing to do with his reaction speed. Tobi is capable of phasing through coordinated attacks from Kakashi, Gai, and RM Naruto. He phased through an attack by Gated Gai and if you remember Gated PTS Lee was faster than the human eye. On the other hand, Tobi could not react fast enough to phase through Minato's attack. Minato's attack speed (combined with the surprise from FTG warp) is so fast that it hit Tobi before he even registered that Minato had jumped-something that Kakashi, Gai, and RM Naruto working together could not do without Kamui. There is no one in the Narutoverse who can react to a Minato teleport blitz.

Warping away susanoo????? you lost me there.
Yeah, I know it's a little strange. Minato is able to warp people, TBB's, objects, and a Bijuu-why couldn't he warp away Susano'o?-there's no reason he couldn't jump with it. I don't mean warp away like Kamui, I mean touching it and warping with it (separating it from Madara).

Minato will be far to busy with dodging katons from 50m distance to close the distance.
Haha no. With Kunai scattered all over the battlefield he can "be everywhere on the battlefield within the blink of an eye." He's also way faster in base than anything Madara's katon has shown. Not to mention him just redirecting it to fry Madara.

In yellow.