Spoiler Theory on Uzumaki tied to the elder son, Uchiha to the younger

[SilentBlade]

After re-reading this last chapter, I had to think about this a while, but I get the feeling that Kishi is going to pull the old switch-a-roo on us, and say he's left clues through the entire series (which he has I believe).

First Portion
Reading this last chapter, and looking back at Obito's comment about Rin, and Nagato's original comments, it makes me believe that the Uchiha are actually more related to the younger son that we believe. Through the series we hear them use the term of love, "A world with only love." That made me think back a bit further, and the same solution came up with Obito, and his reasoning for what he was doing was for his love of Rin. Even further back, Itachi's solution was born for the love of Sasuke! so there is a definite pattern here! Sasuke is driven by his love for his family at first (which is how hatred is born) and then of course love of his brother (once again how hatred is born).

Now looking at what we know about the Uzumaki, we have only a few instances, but certainly enough to make sense with. First of all, we look at Nagato, his solution to peace was to capture the tailed beasts and use them to create a massive weapon, to create peace through the use of force. Kushina through her time also used her strength to beat up the boys in school, and got her nick name, it was in her nature to be short tempered and use her fist first, ask questions later (much like Tsunade, and even Hashirama, he used his strength to transform the ninja world, never to hear about his love, only his power! same with Tobirama). Next we move on to Naruto, he is driven to become stronger because he believes becoming strong enough will allow him to bring sasuke back to the village. His strength is what he relies on, as a means to change the world. Back (way back) he at the final valley, he actually tells Sasuke, he doesn't care if he has to drag (force him back with his strength) him back to the village.

The issue I get at here is that being driven by pure emotion creates a counter part that makes peace impossible as far as the series is concerned. Its not just love that is driven with love, its both love and hate, and that causality relationship they have. We see during the final encounter with Nagato, Naruto has to use his STRENGTH (not love) to contain his hate and show he is capable of realizing peace and breaking the cycle. Essentially speaking, love and hate are the root cause of conflict within the cycle.

Second Portion

It is interesting, we see the Uchiha with the sharingan and believe that the sharingan is a degraded version of the Rinnegan, However the more I look at this the less I believe it. During one of Itachi's first appearances and his conflict with Kakashi, Guy and Kureni early on, he says something about how strong his body is. He states that his body is strong enough to sustain his powers. Its actually quite interesting because I believe that you hear that from Itachi, then you see the bodily strength of Obito who is still alive (without healing powers) after he is essentially cut IN HALF vertically, and of course Madara who attaches himself to the statue and is able to survive off the excess chakra and even able to contain Hashirama's DNA (as we see takes a lot of strength to do so).

On the flip side of this, we are told that the Uzumaki have a special type of chakra, which I find interesting because we are told that the elder son had strong spiritual power, I may be reaching here, but I'd state that the spiritual power was the power to suppress the Kyuubi (once again going along with power). Going along with that, Hashirama, was the one to distribute the tailed beasts (or some of them) to other lands to stabilize the region, using what is arguable a balance of STRENGTH to create a peaceful existence for everyone. Naruto has a lot of chakra, that is for sure, but remember the elder son was given that spiritual power, and with that we can infer that Naruto's special chakra and spiritual strength give him the abilities he has.

With that said, one can make the next logical step in that the Uzumaki clan is the actual clan of the elder son. With that we can argue that the Rinnegan is something awakened by one of that particular clan, and the Sharingan is born of love and is made stronger through hatred (as is what we see the case being in Sasuke's particular case).


Edit: I forgot to state that the first paragraph quote "A world with only love" was Madara's statement to Obito in the latest chapter, that is what got me thinking.

[MrNarutowatcher]

ummmmm okayyyyyy don't agree with it but okayyy its a theory

[WishfulFairie]

Well it explains Naruto and Sasuke's relationship (I think)

[LilHinataGirl]

hmmmm interesting theory (:

[SilentBlade]

Why not? so far Tobi/Obito lied about who he was, made up a bunch of things , why would he suddenly be telling Sasuke the truth?

[Ag_Surfr]

nice write up. looks like a lot of thought went into it. that's always appreciated. you make some good points. how do the senju fit into all this though?

[SilentBlade]

Originally Posted by Ag_Surfr

nice write up. looks like a lot of thought went into it. that's always appreciated. you make some good points. how do the senju fit into all this though?

Thanks!

The Senju and Uzumaki are said to be distant relatives and I am assuming on the same side of linage. It appears more and more that the Uzumaki are more centrists to more related to the elder son along with the Senju, while the Uchiha (and potentially the Hyuga) are more related to the younger son.

One can argue that perhaps "love" was a great factor in trying to find peace, and perhaps the Sage of Six Paths saw that as well. However It seams like when he died, he died with regret, and potentially speaking, perhaps that regret was because he chose wrong?

Remember, during Minato's time with Naruto, he made some interesting statements about how love can create hatred, and every shinobi must battle hatred to control those feelings. From that conversation we can see how love and hate are responsible for the cycle that Naruto is trying to break, and having the strength to control those emotions seamed to be the answer.

[Topik]

Connecting Senju to all of this is pretty easy also in plot - As Uzumaki are distant relatives to Senju, giving senju DNA to Uchiha will unlock FEW of their powers. Unlocking full potential of sharingan needs Uzumaki DNA, maybe because they are closer relatives to Sage than Senju. Moreover, observing Karin, Kushina and Naruto, gives us example that they were pretty nice with regeneration also. But it is just a theory.

[SharinganSage]

I've begun to notice now that you mention it. This really sounds like something Kishi would do.

[SilentBlade]

I love the possibility. I think it would also be an additional interesting twist if both the Senju and Uchiha were decendants of the same son, both the younger son (perhaps) and that is why just simply combining both sets of DNA doesn't awaken a full potential. It would make an interesting thought that the 2 clans were competing to be the successor of the younger son.

It would be the Uzumaki being the sole descendants of the elder son then, which would make an interesting case for sure. it would also fit the whole "distant relatives" idea with the Senju, and would fit why the Senju needed the Uzumaki as Jinchuriki.

[Hiruta Uzumaki]

While I do think your theory is interesting...for now, this proves otherwise (regarding your remarks that Uchiha = Younger Son).

http://manga.animea.net/naruto-chapter-462-page-13.html

I can't contest that Uzumaki could be closely related to the elder son - that's what I find interesting. In fact, Uzumaki, Senju, & Uchiha are all closely related since their ancestors are brothers. But, assuming Tobi was telling the truth in his recounting of the origins of Uchiva v Senju - Uchiha derive from the older brother and thus debunk the larder direction of your theory (re: love v power).

[Jakropha]

This would be awesome aesthetics if it comes true, and despite the evidence against it, it just feels so fitting...
But no, Uzumaki will probably just be that annoying cousin to the Senju and Uchiha who just barges in the door and starts breaking your toys.

[Ag_Surfr]

Originally Posted by Hiruta Uzumaki

While I do think your theory is interesting...for now, this proves otherwise (regarding your remarks that Uchiha = Younger Son).

http://manga.animea.net/naruto-chapter-462-page-13.html

I can't contest that Uzumaki could be closely related to the elder son - that's what I find interesting. In fact, Uzumaki, Senju, & Uchiha are all closely related since their ancestors are brothers. But, assuming Tobi was telling the truth in his recounting of the origins of Uchiva v Senju - Uchiha derive from the older brother and thus debunk the larder direction of your theory (re: love v power).

like was stated before though, tobi has lied plenty of times. it wouldn't be unheard of that he'd lie again in order to manipulate someone.

[SharinganSage]

However, lets not forget how Kishi doesn't seem to look deep into potential plots like forums do. (*cough Tobi *cough) I really wouldn't be surprised if we never hear about the sons ever again.

[Topik]

Originally Posted by SharinganSage

However, lets not forget how Kishi doesn't seem to look deep into potential plots like forums do. (*cough Tobi *cough) I really wouldn't be surprised if we never hear about the sons ever again.

True

[paradigm1977]

It's a nice theory SilentBlade. Kishi has left many doors open to the ancestors.

Originally Posted by SilentBlade

During one of Itachi's first appearances and his conflict with Kakashi, Guy and Kureni early on, he says something about how strong his body is. He states that his body is strong enough to sustain his powers.

You can read this different ways. The strength of body might mean something or it might be ninja talk in general. Gai has also commented on the strength of body for Rock Lee. The senju have a strong body for healing (Hashi and Tsunade). But strength of body (stamina) is a large part of the process in chakra generation. We don't know how taxing the Uchiha powers are on the body. So having a body with high stamina might be necessary for using high level Uchiha powers. This same thing might be said of rinnegan powers and why a uzumaki/Nagato was chosen to inherit the eyes. Strength of body helps determine recovery from using the gates. Like when Rock Lee stood up unconscious, but was later said to be so damaged, he would never be a ninja again.

Originally Posted by SilentBlade

Its actually quite interesting because I believe that you hear that from Itachi, then you see the bodily strength of Obito who is still alive (without healing powers) after he is essentially cut IN HALF vertically, and of course Madara who attaches himself to the statue and is able to survive off the excess chakra and even able to contain Hashirama's DNA (as we see takes a lot of strength to do so).

I don't remember where it says you need a lot of strength to contain Hashirama's DNA. I remember Oro had a hard time mixing DNA to create a new person with wood release. Since everyone but Yamato died.

Originally Posted by SilentBlade

On the flip side of this, we are told that the Uzumaki have a special type of chakra, which I find interesting because we are told that the elder son had strong spiritual power, I may be reaching here, but I'd state that the spiritual power was the power to suppress the Kyuubi (once again going along with power). Going along with that, Hashirama, was the one to distribute the tailed beasts (or some of them) to other lands to stabilize the region, using what is arguable a balance of STRENGTH to create a peaceful existence for everyone. Naruto has a lot of chakra, that is for sure, but remember the elder son was given that spiritual power, and with that we can infer that Naruto's special chakra and spiritual strength give him the abilities he has.

While Hashirama controlled multiple tailed beasts, we don't know how or how hard it was for him. Did he seal them in something? An object? Or a person he gave away to other villages? You bring up the spiritual strength needed, but still move Madara to the younger son. It seemed Tobi could pretty easily control Kurama. But Kushina's strength in helping naruto was seal based. That's physical control, but not the mental control Tobi has. Her ability to survive after the removal of Kurama is also physical strength more directly related to the 2nd son. If she hadn't continued fighting, she might have realistically lived. Usually, every other instance?...you die.

You are attributing Naruto's chakra to the older son, but his recovery rate physically, and ability to put off chakra drain (which is physically draining since it is directly affected by stamina) is closer to the younger son. His lack of love/hate controlling his motivation also goes against the love/hate exhibited by the first sons tantrum, and things you mention about the Uchiha.

Originally Posted by SilentBlade

With that said, one can make the next logical step in that the Uzumaki clan is the actual clan of the elder son. With that we can argue that the Rinnegan is something awakened by one of that particular clan, and the Sharingan is born of love and is made stronger through hatred (as is what we see the case being in Sasuke's particular case).

Yeah, still possible they could be switched. And I personally think the Uzumaki's special chakra is because they are related to both sons. And that is why they are distant cousins to what became the Senju. And why Nagato was a good choice for Rinnegan.

[SilentBlade]

Originally Posted by Hiruta Uzumaki

While I do think your theory is interesting...for now, this proves otherwise (regarding your remarks that Uchiha = Younger Son).

<Removed URL> -SB


I can't contest that Uzumaki could be closely related to the elder son - that's what I find interesting. In fact, Uzumaki, Senju, & Uchiha are all closely related since their ancestors are brothers. But, assuming Tobi was telling the truth in his recounting of the origins of Uchiva v Senju - Uchiha derive from the older brother and thus debunk the larder direction of your theory (re: love v power).

If you think about the dialogue that happened we are told what we are right? however we are told perhaps the opposite of what is true. It would certainly be interesting of the Senju & Uchiha were both descendants of the younger son fighting for power (like the original 2 sons). My issue here is that ever reference to changing the world that you EVER hear Naruto make are related to changing the world with his power, not his love.

The references you always hear Sasuke make, Madara make, even Obito make, are all related to love and tend to have love in them. Its quite the opposite of what would make sense in the linage's ideology if we are to take their relationship to the particular son and draw those lines. I would challenge you to go look at the statements Naruto has made and the Uchiha have made through the series! Its quite interesting and would be a fantastic plot twist!

Originally Posted by Jakropha

This would be awesome aesthetics if it comes true, and despite the evidence against it, it just feels so fitting...
But no, Uzumaki will probably just be that annoying cousin to the Senju and Uchiha who just barges in the door and starts breaking your toys.

I would be let down! I was a bit let down when Obito turned out to be Tobi (I was really pulling for Nawaki), but as we saw, things have kind of shaken out alright with that, I think through a series of chapters we it will smooth that decision out and hopefully make something decent out of it.

Originally Posted by SharinganSage

However, lets not forget how Kishi doesn't seem to look deep into potential plots like forums do. (*cough Tobi *cough) I really wouldn't be surprised if we never hear about the sons ever again.

Originally Posted by paradigm1977

It's a nice theory SilentBlade. Kishi has left many doors open to the ancestors.



You can read this different ways. The strength of body might mean something or it might be ninja talk in general. Gai has also commented on the strength of body for Rock Lee. The senju have a strong body for healing (Hashi and Tsunade). But strength of body (stamina) is a large part of the process in chakra generation. We don't know how taxing the Uchiha powers are on the body. So having a body with high stamina might be necessary for using high level Uchiha powers. This same thing might be said of rinnegan powers and why a uzumaki/Nagato was chosen to inherit the eyes. Strength of body helps determine recovery from using the gates. Like when Rock Lee stood up unconscious, but was later said to be so damaged, he would never be a ninja again.



I don't remember where it says you need a lot of strength to contain Hashirama's DNA. I remember Oro had a hard time mixing DNA to create a new person with wood release. Since everyone but Yamato died.



While Hashirama controlled multiple tailed beasts, we don't know how or how hard it was for him. Did he seal them in something? An object? Or a person he gave away to other villages? You bring up the spiritual strength needed, but still move Madara to the younger son. It seemed Tobi could pretty easily control Kurama. But Kushina's strength in helping naruto was seal based. That's physical control, but not the mental control Tobi has. Her ability to survive after the removal of Kurama is also physical strength more directly related to the 2nd son. If she hadn't continued fighting, she might have realistically lived. Usually, every other instance?...you die.

You are attributing Naruto's chakra to the older son, but his recovery rate physically, and ability to put off chakra drain (which is physically draining since it is directly affected by stamina) is closer to the younger son. His lack of love/hate controlling his motivation also goes against the love/hate exhibited by the first sons tantrum, and things you mention about the Uchiha.




Yeah, still possible they could be switched. And I personally think the Uzumaki's special chakra is because they are related to both sons. And that is why they are distant cousins to what became the Senju. And why Nagato was a good choice for Rinnegan.

I will do my best to address these in order. First of all, the sharingan needs a lot of physical strength to even have open, let alone go into MS. We can make that observation simply by looking at Kakashi and seeing how just using the Sharingan normally and then in MS mode really effects his ability and drains him physically. It can then be drawn that in order to use and wield the Sharingan you need a lot of physical strength, which Itachi has shown he has in massive numbers. He fought death and pushed Sasuke to the brink before he finally died.

As for Hashirama's powers and requiring a lot of strength, Remember the fight with Danzo, it apparently takes a large portion of strength to keep Hashirama's powers under control. I believe Yamato has that power because being one of the many that was experimented on, he survived, while many others did not. It speaks a lot to Yamato's natural abilities.

I don't believe Hashirama ever had the power to control the tailed beasts, he could merely suppress them or seal them. I believe that the Uzumaki had the power to control them as well as the spiritual power to sway them in a way that others just did not. We don't know a ton about the other Jinchuriki, except for KB, and we found that KB was always happy! not love but happiness was what made it possible for KB to control his tailed beast, and then of course that was how Naruto thought as well. I believe the Uchiha could force the tailed beasts to do their bidding, but that was really all, as we saw with Tobi's first encounter with Minato.

I'd also like to point out the sages final word to the tailed beasts before he dies (potentially) When he says "and unlike when you were with me you will be lead down the right path," (CH.572) which I wonder if that means that he regretted his selection of heir?

As for Kushina's ability to live after the beast was extracted, I am not so sure that would be physical strength. Remember, Kushina has special chakra as do many Uzumaki, likely, and the seal that was used was actually the seal developed and used by the sage of six paths, meaning the potential for her to survive compared to others was more than likely greater than others who's seals were both different and weaker in a sense. I would actually chalk that up to spiritual strength more than physical strength. Physical strength is being cut in half (essentially) and surviving.






EDIT: Hey Hiruta, just a heads up , but I would take down the link. I've been told before about posting those types of links, and the forums/mods are very firm on the rules of posting anything that has viz material attached to it.