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Old 09-15-2012, 08:08 AM   #21
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Default Re: Religious Debate Here, I feel it was spammed in Debate Forum.

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Originally Posted by l3thall3g3nd View Post
I know we don't use all our brain but I thought it was higher than 3% I thought it was 20-25%.
Yeah i looked it up it was around a third, probably where I got the three from.
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Old 09-15-2012, 08:09 AM   #22
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Default Re: Religious Debate Here, I feel it was spammed in Debate Forum.

You wanna see a spammed thread
http://naruto.viz.com/forum/showthread.php?t=50651

All religious debate has gone here for a long time


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Real quick, and unrelated. The brain thing you guys were talking about: We use all of our brain, just not all of it used used in an active form. The brain is made of white matter surrounded by grey matter (grey matter being the one that does cognitive processes and fires off signals). The white matter does not preform processes or send off signals, therefor considered not used, yet it is equally as important as grey matter because it makes transfer of information faster (being made of a high amount of axons and dendrites unlike grey matter, which is more made of Nuclear Cell). It's equally as important, why do you think it dominates the nueral matter in our bodies?
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Old 09-15-2012, 11:58 AM   #23
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Default Re: Debate the Concept of God, itself.

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Originally Posted by Satsuki View Post
Before you start, this MAY or MAY NOT, infringe the first rule of the Debate Forum, not entirely sure.

The concept of God is quite flawed, precisely because it is a man made construct. The basic premise of God is that he is three things: omnipotent, omnipresent, and omniscient.


God is not omnipotent-
If God is omnipotent, then he can do pretty much anything with his power. His unlimited power is what created the earth and the heavens, according to scripture. Omnipotence allows God to do anything. Which means God can create another being that can kill God. Which means that if the other being can kill God, God isn't omnipotent.

If God can't create another being that has the power to kill him, then that too means that God is not omnipotent. It isn't a question of whether or not God is willing or refusing to do this, it's a question of ability. If he can, he is not omnipotent. If he can't, he also is not omnipotent.

The classic "Can God make a bean burrito so spicy that not even God can eat it?". Eh? It sounds like a real clincher. But your argument is flawed.
Being omnipotent contrary to popular belief is not the ability to do the
logically impossible. 2+2 does not equal 7. It just doesn't. Ok?

If it is logically impossible for 2+2 to equal 7 than it doesn't matter
how powerful you are. It just won't happen. There are some things
even a Infinite powerful being cannot do--that being the logically impossible.

So God is still omnipotent even if he can't do the logically impossible.
It just means God can do anything that IS logically possible.

However you say if God can do the logically impossible then he is
not omnipotent. Actually no. All that would mean is that God can
do the logically impossible. So either way you're wrong.

Also can God create God that has the power to kill God?

Yes.

Well sorta actually.

If Jesus is God then God in effect killed God

Mind Snap.



God is not omnipresent-
According to scripture, God is present everywhere at the same time. God exists simultaneously in the past, present, and future, in all places at once. Which means God exists in the heavens and on earth. Oh, and in hell. If God is omnipresent, then God exists in pure evil at all times. God exists in lust, in hate, in jealousy, and in all negative emotions. He always existed in them and continues to exist in them forever. God is the embodiment of evil, always has been, and always will be.

God being omnipresent means that he is there, inside the mind, body, and private part of a pure evil rapist serial killer as he commits his heinous acts. But that person was under the influence of the devil, you say? Well, it just so happens that God is also inside the devil as well. But the devil overpowered God's will, you say? Well, then that means that God isn't omnipotent, since there is something more powerful than him.

None of that made any lick of sense.
God being present in hell would not mean God is evil
or overpowered by the devil. It just means God would
be present in hell.



God is not omniscient-
God knows all things and nothing can be hidden from his knowledge. If you lie, he knows. If you decide to watch porn, he knows. If you are alone and you mutilate a cat, he knows. Yet we are taught to live our lives in as good of a manner as possible because that is what God wants from us. We must live according to his will. God being omniscient means that we do not live our lives with any choice whatsoever. God already knows what we have done, what we are doing, and what we will do. Therefore, how we live our lives bears no weight as to whether we will go to heaven or hell. God already has our lives laid out for us, he knows what we will do. Therefore, repenting, going to church, and doing "good things" to have him forgive our sins is irrelevant, since our paths in life are already known by God. There's no such thing as changing that path or tricking God or asking for forgiveness, as God is already one step ahead of you and knows exactly what you will do. Which means the whole concept of practicing religion is pointless, since you are not in control of your choices and destiny.

The other fun thing about God being omniscient is that it means that God has limited knowledge. God knows everything, therefore if he knows everything, he can't create any new idea or concept or piece of knowledge. If God were to create something new, then that would invalidate the claim that he was omniscient. Unless of course he knows what he is going to create in the first place, meaning that his omniscience stands and his knowledge is limited. And having limited knowledge without the ability to create new ideas and concepts means that your power is limited, therefore showing that being omniscient means you have to sacrifice being omnipotent. Which is why you can't be omnipotent and omniscient at the same time.


This one is a bit more complex. But for the first part. Does God's omniscience cancel out free will? No. It just means that God
knows what you are going to do before you do it. This is not
the same thing as God causing you to do something against your will.

As for the second part, you say either God knows everything
and can't learn anything new and therefore is God is not omnipotent.
This is false. Again omnipotent means being able to do the logically
possible NOT the logically impossible. If God already knows everything
that was ever, could ever, will ever be known NOW then it just means
that there is nothing left for God to know. It does not mean God
is not all powerful because it would be logically impossible to know
anymore since there would be literally nothing more to learn.

On the other hand, God being able to learn does not mean God
would be not omniscient. It would just mean that God knows
everything that is true now to be true now. For example
right now Obama is president. This is a true statement. NOW.
God would know NOW that Obama is president. However
God would not know Obama was president then in 1982
because Obama WASN'T president them. God would still
know everything because THEN it was true Obama wasn't
president but now it is true. In the sense that Obama
one day BECAME president and what was once a false
statement became a true statement God has learned
something new while still always knowing everything.



Therefore, the three basic concepts of God are soundly proven wrong, meaning that God doesn't exist.

Check and mate.

Oh, you want more?

Pray for anything you want, but, what about the Divine Plan? Remember that? The Divine Plan, a long time ago, God made a Divine Plan, gave it a lot of thought, thought it was a good plan, and put it into practice. And for billions and billions of years, God's Divine Plan has been doing just fine. Now you come along and pray for something, well say whatever you pray for, isn't in God's Divine Plan. What do you want him to do?

Change his plan?

Just for you?

Doesn't that seem a little arrogant?

It's a Divine Plan. What's the use of having a Divine Plan if every rundown schmuck with a two-dollar prayer book can come along and screw up your plan?

And here's another problem you might have, suppose your prayers aren't answered, what do you say?

"Well, it's God's will, thy will be done."

Well, fine, but if it's God's will and he's going to do what he wants to anyway, why the hell bother praying in the first place?

The point of prayer isn't for instant gratification. Nor should it be.
Why pray against God's will if God isn't going to change his will?
Good question. But perhaps the answer is right there in the
question. Why INDEED pray against God's will when it is futile?
That sounds to me more the problem of the person praying
then it is a problem with God. There's an old saying.
God answers all prayers. But sometimes the answer is NO.


Check and mate, number two.

Oh, now you want even more?

Well, you see those stars, up in the sky at night? The ones that are 20 billion light years away?

The fact that you can see those stars, it means that you're seeing what happened to those stars 20 billion years ago, because it has taken the light, that long to reach your retina.

The Bible, states that the world is roughly 6000 years old. False.

Check and mate, number three.

No, the Bible does not say the world is roughly 6000 years old.



Jeez, you keep reading? You're just not convinced are you?

Well, let's tell you this, did you know that the Bible was written by multiple different people, over the course of centuries? It wasn't even compiled together until around 300AD by Constantine the Great! And even then, he left out certain books, like the book of Mary.

Check and mate, number four.

Yes, I did know all that. So what?
You didn't even make a point.

So what---that all means the Bible is false?

Um..HOW? How does any of what you say conclude the Bible is false?

They left out certain books? OH MY! What a total shocker--NOT.
Of COURSE they left out certain books. I'm sure they left out a
LOT of books. That's the whole point of canon. It was to compile
the books that were agreed upon to be true and leave out the
ones agreed upon to NOT be true. I fail to see how this is a problem.

Now if you say The Book of Mary IS or any other non-canonical book is true and should be in the canon then that's another subject to debate.



I think this will be my last one...

Deuteronomy 20:10-14,17. Read.

It specifically states that if your kingdom is without a home, you are able to walk up to another village, knock on their gates and pillage their city and keep the women and children for your own if they do not let you in, however, if they do let you in, you are able to befriend the city and use their artisians and blacksmiths.

I didn't really see that all-merciful God in the sentence above, did you?

I suppose God really does reside inside the Devil as well!

Hah.

Check and mate, number five.

That passage says nothing of artistans and blacksmiths.
Are you sure you have the right passage?
Besides that this has nothing to do with whether God is omnipresent, omnipotent and omniscience.

It is question of God's morality. Is God good or bad? But that's another debate.

God being evil does not mean God ISN'T omnipresent, omnipotent and omniscience.

That said, I do not think God is evil.

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Old 09-15-2012, 02:15 PM   #24
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Default Re: Debate the Concept of God, itself.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Shisko Shi View Post
but dont ruin peoples veiws because you might be right, if i want to belive in god thats my choise. but thank you for your opinion and post. you seem very smart i wish i was i envy you bro. =)
Alright, so the first part here, you are saying that I should respect your beliefs.

The second part, you're congratulating me.

Quote:
Originally Posted by mrsticky005 View Post

That passage says nothing of artistans and blacksmiths.
Are you sure you have the right passage?
Besides that this has nothing to do with whether God is omnipresent, omnipotent and omniscience.

It is question of God's morality. Is God good or bad? But that's another debate.

God being evil does not mean God ISN'T omnipresent, omnipotent and omniscience.

That said, I do not think God is evil.

There was no original point, so I don't see why you kept bringing back the omni point. There were five points. God's Morality, in church, is stated to be benevolent. If he is benevolent, why is he allowing the people to burn down their village and rape their women and children? Why is he allowing that?

Quote:
No, the Bible does not say the world is roughly 6000 years old.
From the time Adam is created to the time that Abraham died, it was 4000 years. Go read through all of the births of each child and their firstborns. The world is roughly 6000 years old according to dates of births in the Bible. It is stated that it has been 2012 years since Jesus was born, and he died after the age of 30, so Jesus was walking around in the Holy Land about 1950 years ago.

It is, roughly 6000 years old.

On the topic of being Omniscient: God knows everything, he knows what you are doing, what you will do tomorrow, indefinitely. He knows what time you will wake up and what single time you 'choose' to go to bed.

You have no choice to do anything if their is one line for your future. God knows that line, there isn't a tree, it's a line if he knows everything you will do.

On the topic of being Omnipresent: God resides in the Devil. Why doesn't he just kill the Devil? Because he is the origin of the Devil.
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Old 09-15-2012, 03:31 PM   #25
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Default Re: Religious Debate Here, I feel it was spammed in Debate Forum.

Useless post is useless.
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Old 09-15-2012, 03:48 PM   #26
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Default Re: Religious Debate Here, I feel it was spammed in Debate Forum.

Quote:
Originally Posted by tanduhman View Post
there cannot be loopholes in the word omnipotent. Yes, perhaps you have your own real life perspective on those words, as so does everyone else. Everyone on this earth sees the word omnipotent differently, yet you state that your version of that meaning is the absolute 100% correct meaning? I think not. For we cannot know everything as humans who only use 3% of our brain. Yet we can sit here and try to refute any sort of meaning or being because we "think" we know it all. We know nothing, but what weve learned for the amount of years that we have lived. Your answer will be found in the after life. May you learn and keep on learning as we all will.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ur Mom View Post

Real quick, and unrelated. The brain thing you guys were talking about: We use all of our brain, just not all of it used used in an active form. The brain is made of white matter surrounded by grey matter (grey matter being the one that does cognitive processes and fires off signals). The white matter does not preform processes or send off signals, therefor considered not used, yet it is equally as important as grey matter because it makes transfer of information faster (being made of a high amount of axons and dendrites unlike grey matter, which is more made of Nuclear Cell). It's equally as important, why do you think it dominates the nueral matter in our bodies?
1. We use all our brain.

2. The idea behind omnipotent is flawed. Even if god is "omnipotent" who made him?

As a wise man once said...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Toma RNK View Post
Wars have started over whose imaginary friend is better.
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Old 09-15-2012, 04:02 PM   #27
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Default Re: Religious Debate Here, I feel it was spammed in Debate Forum.

PMP, could you put those two posts together?
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Old 09-15-2012, 04:12 PM   #28
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Default Re: Religious Debate Here, I feel it was spammed in Debate Forum.

Done.
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Old 09-15-2012, 08:40 PM   #29
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Default Re: Debate the Concept of God, itself.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Satsuki View Post
Alright, so the first part here, you are saying that I should respect your beliefs.

The second part, you're congratulating me.



There was no original point, so I don't see why you kept bringing back the omni point. There were five points. God's Morality, in church, is stated to be benevolent. If he is benevolent, why is he allowing the people to burn down their village and rape their women and children? Why is he allowing that?

The topic is the concept of God which you defined yourself
as


"The concept of God is quite flawed, precisely because it is a man made construct. The basic premise of God is that he is three things: omnipotent, omnipresent, and omniscient. "

Whether or not God is benevolent has little to do with that definition.


From the time Adam is created to the time that Abraham died, it was 4000 years. Go read through all of the births of each child and their firstborns. The world is roughly 6000 years old according to dates of births in the Bible. It is stated that it has been 2012 years since Jesus was born, and he died after the age of 30, so Jesus was walking around in the Holy Land about 1950 years ago.

It is, roughly 6000 years old.

Again, nowhere in the Bible does it say the earth is 6,000 years old.
I know about the births and counting the generations. But that is
very shaky exegesis. Did you ever consider that perhaps not
all the generations were listed? Also even if those were all
the generations the creation story in Genesis taking place
within the time frame of six days may not be meant to be
taken so literally. The bible is chock of symbolism.
It could very well be that the "six days of creation"
was used an theological device. To say in short,
how phenomenal the act of creation was.
Even if it took more than six days.

There is much debating within Christian circles
between Young Earth creationists (6,000 year old earth)
and Old Earth creationists (not 6,000 year old earth)
So don't think this is a cut and dry subject. It's not.



On the topic of being Omniscient: God knows everything, he knows what you are doing, what you will do tomorrow, indefinitely. He knows what time you will wake up and what single time you 'choose' to go to bed.

You have no choice to do anything if their is one line for your future. God knows that line, there isn't a tree, it's a line if he knows everything you will do.

Again just because God knows what you will do does not mean
it is God who makes you do it. Knowledge does not equate to action.


On the topic of being Omnipresent: God resides in the Devil. Why doesn't he just kill the Devil? Because he is the origin of the Devil.
Why does God need to kill the Devil? You make it sound as if
the Devil is a problem for God. Believe it or not the Devil
really isn't even mentioned all that much in the Bible.
If the Devil was such a big deal you think it would be
mentioned all the time and in great deal. But it's not.

What the Bible DOES spend a lot of time saying is
two things "Sin is bad." As in it will be the death
of you bad. And "Don't mess with God."
Of course these aren't the only things the
Bible says. But they do seem to be central themes.
The devil in comparison is a foot note.

Considering God is supposed to have created everything
then yes God is the origin of the Devil.
Though I don't see that meaning anything.

Especially considering that the Devil was created as a GOOD being
and then later CHANGED to become evil.


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Old 09-15-2012, 09:41 PM   #30
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Default Re: Religious Debate Here, I feel it was spammed in Debate Forum.

My bad on the brain fact, guess im no brain surgeon after all XD.. But the points still stand.
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Old 09-15-2012, 09:50 PM   #31
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Default Re: Religious Debate Here, I feel it was spammed in Debate Forum.

I'll stop believing in God when Sean Connery does.
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Old 09-15-2012, 09:52 PM   #32
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Default Re: Religious Debate Here, I feel it was spammed in Debate Forum.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Shikamaru Nara View Post
PMP, could you put those two posts together?
Quote:
Originally Posted by puppetmasterpossession View Post
Done.
Just saying, I don't really see the point in that because more extra posts were created by having to ask PMP to do this/respond than if it was just looked over...
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I don't know what to put here yet, so I leave you with a nice picture of a buffalo.

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Haha, just kidding.

<3 this heart represents the bromance of Red and RockyL. /brohug
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Old 09-15-2012, 09:52 PM   #33
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Default Re: Religious Debate Here, I feel it was spammed in Debate Forum.

I believe in a God. His name is Morgan Freeman.

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Old 09-16-2012, 12:28 AM   #34
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Default Re: Religious Debate Here, I feel it was spammed in Debate Forum.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Satsuki View Post
Before you start, this MAY or MAY NOT, infringe the first rule of the Debate Forum, not entirely sure.

The concept of God is quite flawed, precisely because it is a man made construct. The basic premise of God is that he is three things: omnipotent, omnipresent, and omniscient.

God is not omnipotent-
If God is omnipotent, then he can do pretty much anything with his power. His unlimited power is what created the earth and the heavens, according to scripture. Omnipotence allows God to do anything. Which means God can create another being that can kill God. Which means that if the other being can kill God, God isn't omnipotent.

If God can't create another being that has the power to kill him, then that too means that God is not omnipotent. It isn't a question of whether or not God is willing or refusing to do this, it's a question of ability. If he can, he is not omnipotent. If he can't, he also is not omnipotent.

God is not omnipresent-
According to scripture, God is present everywhere at the same time. God exists simultaneously in the past, present, and future, in all places at once. Which means God exists in the heavens and on earth. Oh, and in hell. If God is omnipresent, then God exists in pure evil at all times. God exists in lust, in hate, in jealousy, and in all negative emotions. He always existed in them and continues to exist in them forever. God is the embodiment of evil, always has been, and always will be.

God being omnipresent means that he is there, inside the mind, body, and private part of a pure evil rapist serial killer as he commits his heinous acts. But that person was under the influence of the devil, you say? Well, it just so happens that God is also inside the devil as well. But the devil overpowered God's will, you say? Well, then that means that God isn't omnipotent, since there is something more powerful than him.

God is not omniscient-
God knows all things and nothing can be hidden from his knowledge. If you lie, he knows. If you decide to watch porn, he knows. If you are alone and you mutilate a cat, he knows. Yet we are taught to live our lives in as good of a manner as possible because that is what God wants from us. We must live according to his will. God being omniscient means that we do not live our lives with any choice whatsoever. God already knows what we have done, what we are doing, and what we will do. Therefore, how we live our lives bears no weight as to whether we will go to heaven or hell. God already has our lives laid out for us, he knows what we will do. Therefore, repenting, going to church, and doing "good things" to have him forgive our sins is irrelevant, since our paths in life are already known by God. There's no such thing as changing that path or tricking God or asking for forgiveness, as God is already one step ahead of you and knows exactly what you will do. Which means the whole concept of practicing religion is pointless, since you are not in control of your choices and destiny.

The other fun thing about God being omniscient is that it means that God has limited knowledge. God knows everything, therefore if he knows everything, he can't create any new idea or concept or piece of knowledge. If God were to create something new, then that would invalidate the claim that he was omniscient. Unless of course he knows what he is going to create in the first place, meaning that his omniscience stands and his knowledge is limited. And having limited knowledge without the ability to create new ideas and concepts means that your power is limited, therefore showing that being omniscient means you have to sacrifice being omnipotent. Which is why you can't be omnipotent and omniscient at the same time.

Therefore, the three basic concepts of God are soundly proven wrong, meaning that God doesn't exist.

Check and mate.

Oh, you want more?

Pray for anything you want, but, what about the Divine Plan? Remember that? The Divine Plan, a long time ago, God made a Divine Plan, gave it a lot of thought, thought it was a good plan, and put it into practice. And for billions and billions of years, God's Divine Plan has been doing just fine. Now you come along and pray for something, well say whatever you pray for, isn't in God's Divine Plan. What do you want him to do?

Change his plan?

Just for you?

Doesn't that seem a little arrogant?

It's a Divine Plan. What's the use of having a Divine Plan if every rundown schmuck with a two-dollar prayer book can come along and screw up your plan?

And here's another problem you might have, suppose your prayers aren't answered, what do you say?

"Well, it's God's will, thy will be done."

Well, fine, but if it's God's will and he's going to do what he wants to anyway, why the hell bother praying in the first place?

Check and mate, number two.

Oh, now you want even more?

Well, you see those stars, up in the sky at night? The ones that are 20 billion light years away?

The fact that you can see those stars, it means that you're seeing what happened to those stars 20 billion years ago, because it has taken the light, that long to reach your retina.

The Bible, states that the world is roughly 6000 years old. False.

Check and mate, number three.

Jeez, you keep reading? You're just not convinced are you?

Well, let's tell you this, did you know that the Bible was written by multiple different people, over the course of centuries? It wasn't even compiled together until around 300AD by Constantine the Great! And even then, he left out certain books, like the book of Mary.

Check and mate, number four.

I think this will be my last one...

Deuteronomy 20:10-14,17. Read.

It specifically states that if your kingdom is without a home, you are able to walk up to another village, knock on their gates and pillage their city and keep the women and children for your own if they do not let you in, however, if they do let you in, you are able to befriend the city and use their artisians and blacksmiths.

I didn't really see that all-merciful God in the sentence above, did you?

I suppose God really does reside inside the Devil as well!

Hah.

Check and mate, number five.

Why do you have the same exact opening post in two different threads?
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Old 09-16-2012, 12:30 AM   #35
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Default Re: Religious Debate Here, I feel it was spammed in Debate Forum.

Because the previous one was too "cluttered" with spam.

3% of my brain can see the irony here.
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Old 09-16-2012, 12:31 AM   #36
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Quote:
Originally Posted by puppetmasterpossession View Post

2. The idea behind omnipotent is flawed. Even if god is "omnipotent" who made him?

God wasn't created. God always existed. So nobody made him.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kunoichi View Post
Because the previous one was too "cluttered" with spam.

3% of my brain can see the irony here.

Well hopefully the threads are merged since what I wrote WASN'T spam.


I think it would have been better if the spam was deleted from the thread
via a mod rather than creating a new thread altogether.
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Old 09-16-2012, 05:22 AM   #37
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Default Re: Religious Debate Here, I feel it was spammed in Debate Forum.

Quote:
Originally Posted by tanduhman View Post
Im not going to get into this fully, but from what I am reading, I feel like I am just reading another biased point of view. Your points are trying to explain words that you cannot fully understand. There cannot be loopholes in the word omnipotent. Yes, perhaps you have your own real life perspective on those words, as so does everyone else. Everyone on this earth sees the word omnipotent differently, yet you state that your version of that meaning is the absolute 100% correct meaning? I think not. For we cannot know everything as humans who only use 3% of our brain. Yet we can sit here and try to refute any sort of meaning or being because we "think" we know it all. We know nothing, but what weve learned for the amount of years that we have lived. Your answer will be found in the after life. May you learn and keep on learning as we all will.
Sigh. I was going to enter the thread to perhaps add a different perspective on to the OP, but this comment caught my eye.

It's the argument of subjectivity. "Oh we all view this concept a different way so you have no way to say your way is right." Except for the concept itself is made off of a fundamental idea and there are views that are closest to that fundamental idea and views that are further away. If we both see the color blue, sure I can't prove that your blue looks like my blue but we both know that the color blue is created by an object absorbing all other wavelengths of visible light while reflecting the range of wavelengths that shades of blue fall under. Therefore, if your blue falls WAY out of that wavelength range and is perhaps red, your view is no longer in any way representative of the concept of blue.

The concept of omnipotence is based on the idea of absolute power. Yes, it can be interpreted differently, however if someone were to say my interpretation of omnipotence means being the weakest possible organism in existence...THEY ARE DEAD WRONG. Therefore, if you have an alternative view of the word share it and counter his arguments but don't just try to say he's forcing his view of the word onto people, because he's not. The definition of the word itself is what he's stating and expounding upon.


Quote:
God wasn't created. God always existed. So nobody made him.
Oh Ho Ho. I see what you're doing here mr.sticky. You want to play the causality game. I'll take your God always existed, and downsize it one step to the universe always existed. Your move pal.

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Old 09-16-2012, 05:48 AM   #38
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Default Re: Debate the Concept of God, itself.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Satsuki View Post
Before you start, this MAY or MAY NOT, infringe the first rule of the Debate Forum, not entirely sure.

The concept of God is quite flawed, precisely because it is a man made construct. The basic premise of God is that he is three things: omnipotent, omnipresent, and omniscient.

God is not omnipotent-
If God is omnipotent, then he can do pretty much anything with his power. His unlimited power is what created the earth and the heavens, according to scripture. Omnipotence allows God to do anything. Which means God can create another being that can kill God. Which means that if the other being can kill God, God isn't omnipotent.

If God can't create another being that has the power to kill him, then that too means that God is not omnipotent. It isn't a question of whether or not God is willing or refusing to do this, it's a question of ability. If he can, he is not omnipotent. If he can't, he also is not omnipotent.

God is not omnipresent-
According to scripture, God is present everywhere at the same time. God exists simultaneously in the past, present, and future, in all places at once. Which means God exists in the heavens and on earth. Oh, and in hell. If God is omnipresent, then God exists in pure evil at all times. God exists in lust, in hate, in jealousy, and in all negative emotions. He always existed in them and continues to exist in them forever. God is the embodiment of evil, always has been, and always will be.

God being omnipresent means that he is there, inside the mind, body, and private part of a pure evil rapist serial killer as he commits his heinous acts. But that person was under the influence of the devil, you say? Well, it just so happens that God is also inside the devil as well. But the devil overpowered God's will, you say? Well, then that means that God isn't omnipotent, since there is something more powerful than him.

God is not omniscient-
God knows all things and nothing can be hidden from his knowledge. If you lie, he knows. If you decide to watch porn, he knows. If you are alone and you mutilate a cat, he knows. Yet we are taught to live our lives in as good of a manner as possible because that is what God wants from us. We must live according to his will. God being omniscient means that we do not live our lives with any choice whatsoever. God already knows what we have done, what we are doing, and what we will do. Therefore, how we live our lives bears no weight as to whether we will go to heaven or hell. God already has our lives laid out for us, he knows what we will do. Therefore, repenting, going to church, and doing "good things" to have him forgive our sins is irrelevant, since our paths in life are already known by God. There's no such thing as changing that path or tricking God or asking for forgiveness, as God is already one step ahead of you and knows exactly what you will do. Which means the whole concept of practicing religion is pointless, since you are not in control of your choices and destiny.

The other fun thing about God being omniscient is that it means that God has limited knowledge. God knows everything, therefore if he knows everything, he can't create any new idea or concept or piece of knowledge. If God were to create something new, then that would invalidate the claim that he was omniscient. Unless of course he knows what he is going to create in the first place, meaning that his omniscience stands and his knowledge is limited. And having limited knowledge without the ability to create new ideas and concepts means that your power is limited, therefore showing that being omniscient means you have to sacrifice being omnipotent. Which is why you can't be omnipotent and omniscient at the same time.

Therefore, the three basic concepts of God are soundly proven wrong, meaning that God doesn't exist.

Check and mate.

Oh, you want more?

Pray for anything you want, but, what about the Divine Plan? Remember that? The Divine Plan, a long time ago, God made a Divine Plan, gave it a lot of thought, thought it was a good plan, and put it into practice. And for billions and billions of years, God's Divine Plan has been doing just fine. Now you come along and pray for something, well say whatever you pray for, isn't in God's Divine Plan. What do you want him to do?

Change his plan?

Just for you?

Doesn't that seem a little arrogant?

It's a Divine Plan. What's the use of having a Divine Plan if every rundown schmuck with a two-dollar prayer book can come along and screw up your plan?

And here's another problem you might have, suppose your prayers aren't answered, what do you say?

"Well, it's God's will, thy will be done."

Well, fine, but if it's God's will and he's going to do what he wants to anyway, why the hell bother praying in the first place?
I don't want to seem too biased so I'll play the Devil's Advocate here. Satsuki seems like a young atheist or maybe a new atheist. Full of righteous fury. Striking down the concept of God with the basic philosophical paradoxes, so I guess I'll add some food for thought and see how well Satsuki responds to what I view to be the more well thought out responses to the initial atheist arguments.

1,) Omnipotence Paradox. Ok God creating another being that kills God. Well you are asking God to do the logically impossible which theoretically should be within his power, however, your argument defeats itself semantically. If God creates a being more powerful than himself he is no longer omnipotent. Whatever entity he created becomes God instead. This paradox doesn't challenge God's omnipotence but human understanding of his power, and the limitations of the human language in explaining absolute power.

2.) Omnipresence. This was a vestigial quality which people often add to God unnecessarily. He doesn't need to be everywhere thanks to his omniscience and omnipotence. He actually doesn't "exist" in this physical reality but his power is all encompassing giving people the conflicting ideas that he's everywhere and nowhere at the same time. Point is we can't place God within the confines of space and time only he can do that when he deems it necessary.

3.) Omniscience Paradox. This is the most complicated one so here are two responses I found interesting when I first became an atheists...

Prayer and the Divine Plan. God is omniscient so perhaps he created a nexus with the trillions of different possible outcomes in our everyday lives all being inconsequential in taking away from his Divine Plan. Perhaps his plan allows for an inconceivable number individual alterations.

Predestination. I've never really heard a good counter to this point but I will point out that you shouldn't be satisfied with that broad overarching argument. There are many doctorate level theologians and Christian philosophers that attempt to answer it. You should know this point at more than a conversational level if you wish to debate it with a more knowledgeable crowd.

I remember the first time I almost got caught off guard bringing this up, when someone mentioned the concept of presentism to me. Presentism is the idea that the future and the past only exists as concepts, even modern technology considers time travel science fiction. Therefore, if we assume that it's not possible, the only form of time that really exists is the present. So God cannot know the future because his omniscience only grants him knowledge of everything that exists. (This goes against several Christian ideas but pointing this out won't work against a debater who's compromised on deism).


Anyways, these are some points that made me question my atheism at first. It'll be interesting to see how you respond. Maybe you've encountered some of them before. Again, just food for thought.
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Old 09-16-2012, 04:42 PM   #39
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Default Re: Religious Debate Here, I feel it was spammed in Debate Forum.

Quote:
Originally Posted by JLI2infinity View Post
Sigh. I was going to enter the thread to perhaps add a different perspective on to the OP, but this comment caught my eye.

It's the argument of subjectivity. "Oh we all view this concept a different way so you have no way to say your way is right." Except for the concept itself is made off of a fundamental idea and there are views that are closest to that fundamental idea and views that are further away. If we both see the color blue, sure I can't prove that your blue looks like my blue but we both know that the color blue is created by an object absorbing all other wavelengths of visible light while reflecting the range of wavelengths that shades of blue fall under. Therefore, if your blue falls WAY out of that wavelength range and is perhaps red, your view is no longer in any way representative of the concept of blue.

The concept of omnipotence is based on the idea of absolute power. Yes, it can be interpreted differently, however if someone were to say my interpretation of omnipotence means being the weakest possible organism in existence...THEY ARE DEAD WRONG. Therefore, if you have an alternative view of the word share it and counter his arguments but don't just try to say he's forcing his view of the word onto people, because he's not. The definition of the word itself is what he's stating and expounding upon.




Oh Ho Ho. I see what you're doing here mr.sticky. You want to play the causality game. I'll take your God always existed, and downsize it one step to the universe always existed. Your move pal.
The universe is expanding. Rewind and the universe is contracting.
But if the universe has always existed then it would have to
contract an infinite amount but not be reduced to zero.

On the other hand if the universe has always existed then that means
it has been expanding for an infinite amount of time. However is
something has been expanding for an infinite amount time that
means it is infinite in size but if it is infinite in size already how
then does it expand?

Or in other words what number is bigger than infinity?

The ball is in your court it seems.
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Old 09-16-2012, 05:11 PM   #40
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Default Re: Religious Debate Here, I feel it was spammed in Debate Forum.

Quote:
Originally Posted by mrsticky005 View Post
The universe is expanding. Rewind and the universe is contracting.
But if the universe has always existed then it would have to
contract an infinite amount but not be reduced to zero.

On the other hand if the universe has always existed then that means
it has been expanding for an infinite amount of time. However is
something has been expanding for an infinite amount time that
means it is infinite in size but if it is infinite in size already how
then does it expand?

Or in other words what number is bigger than infinity?

The ball is in your court it seems.
Theory of an oscillating universe. If the density of the universe is greater than its critical density then it's possible that the universe goes through an endless cycle of expanding and then contracting. The universe expands to a certain point, then gravity forces it back into a point of singularity with a Big Crunch, then at it's point of singularity time elapses until there is another Big Bang.

Your move .
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