|09-11-2012, 10:51 PM||#1|
Join Date: Oct 2011
Location: Philadelphia, PA, USA
Posts: 1,471Rep Power: 9
Obito's training... and a deal is struck?
Now that it's definite Madara trained Obito and Nagato formed the trio, I'll connect a few dots my own way.
1. Madara is not dead and talking to obito in the existence between narutoverse and the afterlife. His soul shouldn't be an old man. And you wouldn't engage in an eye of the moon plan with a spirit. And the spirit wouldn't bandage you up. No proof of zetsu in the rescue, yet.
2. This is after nagato has the rinnegans. And Madara currently doesn't show his. more on that later.
3. Madara is as old as the tsuchikage in the present.
4. Whetever plans Madara had for ruling the world never panned out by this point.
5. Despite the relatively short time lapse, Obito claims to Minato, that he hasn't been hurt in a long time.
I think either Madara is being figurative in saying Obito is between life and death, or Madara witnessed the intangibility effect while Obito is unconscious. The body can protect itself subconsiously and Obito might even be phasing back in forth as he is in a dream state. Not saying which is more likely, but the second should impress Madara.
Madara took Obito, as his second apprentice to Nagato. Madara has called Nagato a brat, suggesting he trained him soon after Jiraiya left. and Tobi says Nagato betrayed "us," not, "me." So Tobi and Nagato are most likely fellow students of Madara.
So Obito was possibly trained by both. Not just Madara. And Obito can record both of them. I would say it wasn't done in the pocket dimension where time somehow slows down. I think Madara primarilly trained Obito under genjutsu, and may have sped up time in the genjutsu like Itachi can. The training felt real to Obito and Madara could recreate famous people he recorded with his sharingan, and their techniques.
So while Naruto had physical training, Obito's was maybe in a mental state. And both were accelerated. This would explain how Obito would say he hadn't been injured in a while, according to his own fight experience, while staying true to the timeline.
The new twist. Madara calls Obito the planner. So while Madara is very experienced and knowledgeable in justu, it might have actually been Obito's Eye of the moon plan. Madara's main concern would be to be young and strong again. He doesn't have the psychological benefit to the plan that Obito has. So there might have been a bit of a trade off. Obito helps Nagato round up the bijuu for Madara to be revived and made the juubi host. Tobi will back up nagato in this. Once Madara is back, he will cast infinite tsukyonomi, which takes away the pain of war. This is more for Obito. But madara thinks this is a good plan anyway.
And that's it for now.
What a mature Haku could have been...
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|09-11-2012, 11:24 PM||#2|
Join Date: Aug 2011
Location: San Diego, CA
Posts: 403Rep Power: 6
Re: Obito's training... and a deal is struck?
Madara does say to Kabuto (who speaks through Muu shortly after summoning him) that the world would be better off in eternal sleep.
Since its now for sure that Tobi is Obito without a shadow of a doubt from even the most stalwart skeptics (me), I guess its enough that Obito's motivation was Rin dying. I personally think that Obito's use of the phrase "Rinne Tensei was supposed to be for my sake," now refers to Obito's desire to ressurect Rin and not Madara. Why? So he can genjutsu her and live in a happy paradise without any interference from the imperfect social environment of the Shinobi World. Although, maybe he really does want everyone in a genjutsu to end all warfare. But its important to remember that he feels the world is hopeless since no one's dream can ever become true, such as his dream to be with Rin. He refers to himself as "no one" thus making himself a metaphor for the countless individual cases of tragedy brought about by war. So it is pain of warfare, but for him I think its more specific. Particularly, concerning Rin. I think his ulterior motive is just that.
I think where Madara's idea of Infinite Tsukiyomi is concerned has nothing to do with ruling over the world and more to do with sheer nihilism (Edit: Nihilism isn't 100% accurate, a form of it though, regarding himself and the world as it has been--violent and weak). He may be extremely powerful, but have you ever felt guilty or pity for people you're superior to? Such as always beating a friend at a certain game and watching them get frustrated? Or seeing a friend always fail at assignments in school that you yourself ace? Etc., etc?
Well, I think Madara feels guilty for the the fact that his brother gave him his eyes because, unlike Izuna, it was Madara who had the real power to do anything, namely; beating the Senju. I think Madara's rivalry with Hashirama had everything to do with setting an example and very little to do with actual power. And the example failed. He obviously lived long enough to see this happen and feels that the world is pretty much hopeless in terms of what good leadership and strong inspiration can do for those people who aren't talented.
So I think their motivations contrast one another and create room for a rift between them. Madara wouldn't agree with Obito's desire to bring back Rin (think "Rin" and "Rinne Tensei"). Obito was manipulated, and everyone who has ever been manipulated comes to a moment of clarity where they have to choose. I think Obito chose a long time ago that he wasn't interested in Madara's particular intentions for the Infinite Tsukiyomi and therefore didn't resurrect him.
Furthermore, the purpose behind resurrecting Madara as living flesh probably had to do with synching him with Gedo Mazo. This would, of course, give Madara the power of being Juubi's Jinchiruuki, but I suspect there was a bargain involved as you say paradigm. Madara wanted help and would give Obito Rin (either the real Rin or fake Rin illusion) as a reward.
But with Madara around as an Edo Tensei, Tobi probably decided to jump the gun on Juubi revival in order to settle for the illusionary version considering that he knew Madara would be too powerful to overcome if that were the case. Especially since Edo Madara is dead and cannot synch with Gedo Mazo (hence his need for Sasuke to be the synch instead).
The catch? I think Obito has/had a card up his sleeve to allow him to manipulate Juubi and its host (Madara or Sasuke) and thus become the architect of the illusionary future rather than a Rinne Tensei'd Madara. What might that card be? Zetsu. How? Black Zetsu has stated that his power is "the land itself" and so I believe what that alludes to is a form of Sage Chakra that will give Obito the same potential to control Juubi by casting a form of Sage Genjutsu on it/them.
I don't think Obito himself wants to be the Juubi Jinchiruuki. He did tell the Kage he wanted a complete body, but he was still impersonating Madara at the time, whose objective was/is to have become the Jinchiruuki for Juubi. I think that is specifically a matter of Sharingan prowess. Same as my earlier statement about Izuna believing Madara was better suited to possess power. This may have been Madara's brand of manipulation.
Again, Obito himself doesn't appear to be too interested in synching with the Gedo Mazo himself, which has to be the means for becoming Juubi Jinchiruuki otherwise he wouldn't have mentioned needing Sasuke to synch with it. Back to my theory about Sage Genjutsu via Zetsu.
I've always suspected that Zetsu was Obito's trump card in this whole affair. But, of course, could be wrong.
Lower your fingers.
Last edited by Fuuin; 09-11-2012 at 11:27 PM.
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