Tobi vs. Minato

[Uchiha Sora]

Unlike Tobi's jutsu, Kamui seems to be somewhat instant. He kamu'd an Explosion, arrows, kunai merely a few feet away from its target, speed missiles, etc

[megabbaut]

Minato can probably use Gamabunta this time, is he can then he should take it.

[Godaime Kazekage]

Originally Posted by Uchiha Sora

Unlike Tobi's jutsu, Kamui seems to be somewhat instant. He kamu'd an Explosion, arrows, kunai merely a few feet away from its target, speed missiles, etc

FTG actually is instant.

[Uchiha Sora]

Bbut are minato's reactions instant?

[megabbaut]

He has to spread FTG kunai first before he can use FTG which is a form of prep IIRC

[Godaime Kazekage]

Originally Posted by Uchiha Sora

Bbut are minato's reactions instant?

Pretty close. Seeing as he has the fastest reaction speed in the entire Narutoverse and has an instant teleportation technique, if anyone's going to survive Kamui it's Minato. Seeing as Kakashi has never killed anyone with Kamui, I seriously doubt he can defeat the entire Narutoverse with it. Kamui is also definitely not instant-the kunai Tobi kicked at Nartuo took multiple panels to be warped away.

[Uchiha Sora]

You cant judge it Kamui off how many panels it took. It looks like Naruto's chakra arms barely moved from their positions.

Theres also how he kamui'd an entire Bijuu Mode Naruto clone so fast that Tobi didn't even know it was kamui'd.
And problem is Kakashi hasn't used Kamui offensively since Deidara

[BMC1994]

Originally Posted by megabbaut

He has to spread FTG kunai first before he can use FTG which is a form of prep IIRC

How about just throwing the kunai while IN the fight. You know what they have been made for.

Originally Posted by Uchiha Sora

You cant judge it Kamui off how many panels it took. It looks like Naruto's chakra arms barely moved from their positions.

Theres also how he kamui'd an entire Bijuu Mode Naruto clone so fast that Tobi didn't even know it was kamui'd.
And problem is Kakashi hasn't used Kamui offensively since Deidara

Yeah but tobi has to worry about 3 top tier opponents while guarding the gedo mazo and not getting killed himself. Its impressive enough that he didnt die. I doubt Kakashi would be able to send a kamui suprise on his own.

Originally Posted by Uchiha Sora

Bbut are minato's reactions instant?

Are tobi's ? (this can go both ways :P )

[PrinceofPeace]

@BMC

I do not know if you explained this already but how is gedo nothing new? Gedo maze would crush Minato.

[Godaime Kazekage]

Originally Posted by Uchiha Sora

You cant judge it Kamui off how many panels it took. It looks like Naruto's chakra arms barely moved from their positions.

Theres also how he kamui'd an entire Bijuu Mode Naruto clone so fast that Tobi didn't even know it was kamui'd.
And problem is Kakashi hasn't used Kamui offensively since Deidara

The point is that Kamui is a progressive jutsu and has a time interval over which it is used-that interval could be really short, but it's still not an instant technique like FTG. You're way overestimating Kamui-if it were as powerful as you make it out to be than Kakashi could easily beat any opponent, Obito included-which he obviously can't do. Before you say "Kamui doesn't work on Obito because of his phasing"-that's not true, if Kamui were as fast as you make it out to be Kakashi could warp away Obito's head any time he became solid, like when he shot those shuriken and spikes out.

[PrinceofPeace]

^True BUT

How would Minato get past Gedo Maze?
Also
Rasnegan is the only attack Minato can really do. Tobi underestimated him last time and got cocky. He knows of his speed and tobi is faster and has more offensive jutsu now.

[Godaime Kazekage]

Originally Posted by PrinceofPeace

^True BUT

How would Minato get past Gedo Maze?
Also
Rasnegan is the only attack Minato can really do. Tobi underestimated him last time and got cocky. He knows of his speed and tobi is faster and has more offensive jutsu now.

Why do people keep talking about Gedo Maza and Obito's new feats/knowledge?
Here's the OP:

Originally Posted by BoxHead

Default locations.

This is Hooded Tobi with chains. Only difference: has BOTH MS's and has the amount of mastery over long ranged Kamui as Kakashi does. Minato doesn't have to protect anyone, so all of his actions are focused on killing Tobi.

Everything about the fight is the same except Tobi has Kakashi's Kamui as well and Minato doesn't have to worry about the village. That means no Gedo Maza, fire jutsu, or knowledge of Minato's abilities. Tobi is also not faster than before, what are you basing that statement off?

[PrinceofPeace]

WHAT!?!?!?! SO there is barely a difference from their orginal fight. Tobi practically always had Kaumi and Minato just does not have to worry about the village

I was confused cuz nobody was saying what Tobi this was

[JLI2infinity]

Originally Posted by BMC1994

Tobi cant be Intangable and use jutsu at the same time as far as i know (that is what minato exploited). So as soon as tobi would kamui one kunai. Minato would blitz him with another kunai+ Rasengan.

The Kunai Was Going Through his head if he would solidify he would get killed right there.

Who even says that minato has to throw a kunai at his face again?

Then there still is the fact that minato has multiple kunai why would he only have one kunai while in every fight he has been in he has shown to have more then one . And he can throw multiple kunai.

It would be different if minato would possess only 1 kunai but he doesnt.

I mean I was assuming Minato would throw the kunai at his face because that's the strategy he used last time. And even if he has multiple kunai he only used one to attack. And in my scenario the kunai he throws gets hit with Kamui right before it hits Tobi's face. Therefore, Minato will be just a few feet away from Tobi when his plan to teleport gets suddenly ruined and Tobi is fast enough to kill him at that point.

Originally Posted by Godaime Kazekage

There are multiple problems with this strategy-
First, it's going by the assumption that Tobi can act quicker/has better reaction speed than Minato when it's been shown that Minato has the best reaction speed in the entire Narutoverse. Minato likely could've Rasengan'd Tobi before he could suck him in anyway, he just went for the safer/smarter option of teleporting behind Tobi in which he still Rasengan'd Tobi to the back before he could react and make himself intangible-RM Naruto, Guy, and Kakashi working together haven't been able to get a hit on Obito w/out using Kamui (altough we still don't have confirmation that the "Tobi" Minato fought was Obito). It's like hustling in pool-you lose a game to boost the opponent's confidence (Minato moved exactly at a speed that Tobi thought he would just barely have the advantage and win) and then you show your true skills and beat the opponent in the next game for double the money (use Hirashin Lvl. 2 and Rasengan to the back).

Minato freaking out and being "unable to react" after his Kunai is Kamui'd is laughable-he was able to escape from Tobi's warping after being caught off guard and was able to warp away after initially underestimating and being surprised by A at full speed. If Tobi warped the kunai Minato would just warp to a different kunai if he was unconfident he could get the first strike. Minato doesn't need to psych himself up for FTG, the technique is instant.

It's not about "freaking out" it's about Tobi exploiting a speed gap so small that he wins. A was coming from around 50 feet away to attack with his armor. Tobi did the same thing Minato did at the Kage Summit. A activated his lightning armor and blitzed Tobi mid sentence but Tobi reacted in time to phase through it. Him reacting to the warping feat was impressive but he was given time in between Tobi's announcement "I am your opponent and it's over" and warping an opponent isn't his fastest attack, which is a weakness we saw Konan exploit.

I'm talking about Tobi timing his trump card the same way Minato timed his, except this time it works for Tobi. Minato gets very close and right when he gets ready to throw his kunai through Tobi's head and use Hiriashin level 2, Tobi Kamuis the kunai and simultaneously stabs at Minato. Tobi is one of the fastest characters too as we've all seen. Even with the fastest reaction speeds in the show Minato can lose to someone with similar reaction speeds. It's like how if Minato and A were to run an 100 meter dash with Minato having a kunai at the finish line, Minato would probably be able to barely win by using FTG, but he would lose if he gave A a few milliseconds head start.

[Goukakyuu_kid]

minato wins hands down

[Uchiha Sora]

^Please provide reasoning next time, posts like that get deleted.

The point is that Kamui is a progressive jutsu and has a time interval over which it is used-that interval could be really short, but it's still not an instant technique like FTG. You're way overestimating Kamui-if it were as powerful as you make it out to be than Kakashi could easily beat any opponent, Obito included-which he obviously can't do. Before you say "Kamui doesn't work on Obito because of his phasing"-that's not true, if Kamui were as fast as you make it out to be Kakashi could warp away Obito's head any time he became solid, like when he shot those shuriken and spikes out.

If it wasn't instant then Kakashi's tracking/reaction skills are friggin god mode. That would mean he'd have to keep tracking everything he kamuis as it moves. For example.. Susano'o arrows.. And that doens't make sense

He honestly can take out pretty much anyone in the verse, except Obito. The reason why Obito won't fall to kamui is because of his technique, yes. But not because he phases before he gets hit by Kamui. Its because he technically Kamui's himself all the time.

It's like how if Minato and A were to run an 100 meter dash with Minato having a kunai at the finish line,

I've said this before

[Godaime Kazekage]

Originally Posted by JLI2infinity

I mean I was assuming Minato would throw the kunai at his face because that's the strategy he used last time. And even if he has multiple kunai he only used one to attack. And in my scenario the kunai he throws gets hit with Kamui right before it hits Tobi's face. Therefore, Minato will be just a few feet away from Tobi when his plan to teleport gets suddenly ruined and Tobi is fast enough to kill him at that point.
Assuming this strategy would even work, there is no new knowledge in this scenario-read the OP again, it's like a reboot of Tobi and Minato's fight, not a second fight after they know each other's abilities. Even if this were a second fight scenario Minato wouldn't use the same exact move he used last time. If Tobi doesn't have knowledge of Minato's technique, why would he use the much more chakra taxing KakaKamui to warp away Minato's attack instead of just phasing through it?


It's not about "freaking out" it's about Tobi exploiting a speed gap so small that he wins. A was coming from around 50 feet away to attack with his armor. Tobi did the same thing Minato did at the Kage Summit. A activated his lightning armor and blitzed Tobi mid sentence but Tobi reacted in time to phase through it. Him reacting to the warping feat was impressive but he was given time in between Tobi's announcement "I am your opponent and it's over" and warping an opponent isn't his fastest attack, which is a weakness we saw Konan exploit.

We have no confirmation that Tobi wasn't already intangible when Raikage decided to attack him and A turning on his lightning armor is a dead giveaway that he's going to attack. He wasn't given any time from the announcement, because he didn't know about the warping technique. What attack does Tobi have that's faster than warping? He can become intangible faster than warping, but we have no evidence that he has attacks faster than his warping.

I'm talking about Tobi timing his trump card the same way Minato timed his, except this time it works for Tobi. Minato gets very close and right when he gets ready to throw his kunai through Tobi's head and use Hiriashin level 2, Tobi Kamuis the kunai and simultaneously stabs at Minato. Tobi is one of the fastest characters too as we've all seen. Even with the fastest reaction speeds in the show Minato can lose to someone with similar reaction speeds. It's like how if Minato and A were to run an 100 meter dash with Minato having a kunai at the finish line, Minato would probably be able to barely win by using FTG, but he would lose if he gave A a few milliseconds head start.
Minato and Tobi were still a good distance away

This assumes that Tobi can warp away the kunai fast enough that Minato couldn't react and jump to a different kunai in time-if he could do that, then it would be easier to just warp away Minato's head. Do you honestly think Kamui is fast enough to do that? If Tobi waits until Minato's thrown the kunai then I see it getting lodged in his head, because Kamui's not fast enough to warp away a kunai thrown by a sprinting Minato at point blank range (while Tobi is running towards Minato as well).

In bold.

[PrinceofPeace]

This fight is no any different than from the orginal fight. Minato won the first time so he wins again. He can teleport out of warping and that is the only attack Tobi can do

[Godaime Kazekage]

Originally Posted by Uchiha Sora

^Please provide reasoning next time, posts like that get deleted.


If it wasn't instant then Kakashi's tracking/reaction skills are friggin god mode. That would mean he'd have to keep tracking everything he kamuis as it moves. For example.. Susano'o arrows.. And that doens't make sense

He honestly can take out pretty much anyone in the verse, except Obito. The reason why Obito won't fall to kamui is because of his technique, yes. But not because he phases before he gets hit by Kamui. Its because he technically Kamui's himself all the time.

I've said this before

I don't know how I can say this differently-there are panels showing the progression of Kamui-meaning it's impossible that the technique is instant. What's the best speed feat for Kamui-probably that it absorbed Sasuke's arrow. What's the best speed feat for Sasuke's arrow-probably that Kakashi had to use Kamui to absorb it-basing Kamui's speed of Sasuke's arrow is then a circular argument. Sasuke's arrows have also been dodged-they're not THAT fast.

Obito's phasing is different from Kakashi's Kamui. Obito sends part of his body to the other dimension, but his overall body is still somehow connected. Kakashi's kamui would sever off a part of Obito's body, just like with Deidara. Sure, Obito could go retrieve an arm or leg if Kakashi warped them, but not his head. The reason Obito says that Kakashi's kamui won't work on him is that it's not fast enough to hit him before he can phase into the other dimension-meaning Kakashi has nothing to warp if Obito's already there.

[JLI2infinity]

Assuming this strategy would even work, there is no new knowledge in this scenario-read the OP again, it's like a reboot of Tobi and Minato's fight, not a second fight after they know each other's abilities. Even if this were a second fight scenario Minato wouldn't use the same exact move he used last time. If Tobi doesn't have knowledge of Minato's technique, why would he use the much more chakra taxing KakaKamui to warp away Minato's attack instead of just phasing through it?

Tobi gained knowledge of Minato's technique throughout their fight. He noticed that Minato teleported to his kunai (not like Obito wouldn't know this already btw but I guess we are still doubting it's him because it hasn't been confirmed) when Minato did it multiple times throughout their fight. He did it once to avoid getting warped, and again to avoid Tobi's chains. Therefore he understands that Kamui'ing a kunai ends teleportation to that location completely while phasing through it only provides a temporary solution.

We have no confirmation that Tobi wasn't already intangible when Raikage decided to attack him and A turning on his lightning armor is a dead giveaway that he's going to attack. He wasn't given any time from the announcement, because he didn't know about the warping technique. What attack does Tobi have that's faster than warping? He can become intangible faster than warping, but we have no evidence that he has attacks faster than his warping.

A turned on his armor the same way he did against Minato, instantly while attacking. He gave no prior warning and he's so fast he was attacking while simulataneously activating it. Tobi was standing there holding Sasuke on his shoulder and he had just finished warping, two things he has to be solid to do.

This assumes that Tobi can warp away the kunai fast enough that Minato couldn't react and jump to a different kunai in time-if he could do that, then it would be easier to just warp away Minato's head. Do you honestly think Kamui is fast enough to do that? If Tobi waits until Minato's thrown the kunai then I see it getting lodged in his head, because Kamui's not fast enough to warp away a kunai thrown by a sprinting Minato at point blank range (while Tobi is running towards Minato as well).

Warping away a head takes more time and more chakra then a kunai, and Minato doesn't move in a predictable pattern like a projectile (which is why we haven't seen Kakashi Kamui away living objects since Deidara's arm. Kakashi was fast enough to Kamui a kunai from the same distance between Naruto and Tobi so you saying it gets lodged in his head makes no sense.