Itachi vs. Kabuto

[king kakashi]

Originally Posted by JLI2infinity

Izanagi takes prep in which time Itachi loses.
itachi held him at bay for the entire duration
@BMC

1.) He dodges it once when the fight begins and dodges it again and barely gets knicked on the tail and that was during a combo attack from both brothers.
super sonic speeds dodge ammy
2.) Sasuke is dying and weak so he decides to materialize Susano'o (the most taxing MS technique of all) and fire an arrow, yeah I really doubt that. The more likely conclusion is that the arrow is faster than concentrating on a spot for Amaterasu
the arrows are part of susanoo
3.) Itachi had to focus on Tsukuyomi as well he can't perform other moves while Sasuke's inside of it because he's inside of it too, manipulating the dimension.
one look to the eye and kabuto is done period
4.) The shedding takes virtually no time at all, yet you say he gets Izanami'd -______- Really? That obviously worked when Kabuto shed so quickly he was able to blitz Itachi and cut him in half. Susano'o really came in handy there
then he got his horn cut off and trapped in izamni
5.) This will be my last time entertaining the Itachi stamina debate with you. PTS Itachi is the one without health problems and that is who was mentioned in this thread. I already told you that the Itachi who fought Sasuke was using drugs to prolong his life, he was basically fighting on will power. That is NOT stamina that is resolve. He was going to die but he kept pushing until the very end. If you need an example distinguishing the two Jiraiya is someone with a lot of stamina AND a lot of will power. He demonstrates separate feats for each. For his stamina he is stated to have a powerful body with large chakra reserves (which is why he could learn Sage Mode) and has demonstrated things like summoning Gama with his chakra still impaired by Tsunade's drug. For his will power he forced himself back to life after getting his throat crushed and wrote the message on Fukusaku's back.

Itachi has high stamina but not unlimited stamina i have to agree but what i'm saying is is that this debate is futile as long as people can fall back on izamni
in red

[JLI2infinity]

Originally Posted by king kakashi

Itachi has high stamina but not unlimited stamina i have to agree but what i'm saying is is that this debate is futile as long as people can fall back on izamni
in red

Not really. My point is that it took Itachi a long fight where he and Sasuke were continuously bailing each other out before he was able to get Izanami off. Eliminate Sasuke and it doesn't matter. Every action Kabuto used that Sasuke saved Itachi from is no longer a problem.

White Rage: Kabuto is no longer distracted while trying to get Sasuke
Demonic Flute: Sasuke's not there to use genjutsu on Itachi

I haven't even mentioned Itachi using summons for a distraction. Not only can he go hide while Itachi deals with Manda 2 and six other giant snakes, he can prepare Demonic Flute or a web trap or any other plan he can think of.

And I've been explaining the whole time you don't need to move as fast as A to dodge Amaterasu, just faster than the Mangekyo can focus on a spot to ignite. Sasuke momentarily dodged it before he got hit on the wing. Kabuto has precog and is faster than both Uchiha brothers, on top of that he could easily avoid it by going underground. But any argument for Amaterasu got ended when Sora mentioned that he can just shed his skin repeatedly.

But I just can't let it go that people refuse to believe Kabuto can dodge it, I just don't see why that's so hard to believe. For one A was moving faster than necessary, on top of that he was doing it from close range (he was like 20 feet away from Sasuke), Kabuto has precog. which I've mentioned this whole time, and what I find to be the most logical argument people have been ignoring. If Amaterasu were really that fast why didn't they hit Kabuto with it?

It's a slow burn that can be used to capture the enemy alive (before I have to hear about how Amaterasu would've killed him). Instead of using it Itachi and Sasuke were using Susano'o weapons. There was one point where Kabuto was directly in Sasuke's line of sight and Sasuke used his chidori sword. All these things point to the fact that using those attacks is faster than focusing on one spot to use Amaterasu. It also suggests that Sasuke and Itachi knew they wouldn't be able to catch Kabuto with it.

[Godaime Kazekage]

@JLI2:

White Rage: The fact is Itachi was able to maintain Susano'o before Kabuto could attack Sasuke-White Rage isn't doing anything for Kabuto.

Demonic Flute: Itachi and Sasuke were arguing when he was materializing the Sound Four-Itachi would have plenty of time to counter it. They only got hit, because they were hiding and not even looking at Kabuto-I can't believe that you're trying to argue that Kabuto can pull off the whole thing without first getting hit by ammy or having to counter a fireball.

Boss Summons: When has Kabuto demonstrated that he can summon all of those things at the same time? All he can summon is Manda 2 who is an easy target for Amaterasu.

Dodging Ammy: We've been over this-Itachi wasn't trying to kill Sasuke-Sasuke couldn't outrun Amaterasu. They never even attempted to use Amaterasu on Kabuto-maybe Itachi didn't know that Sasuke could extinguish the flames. The burn doesn't have to be slow either-see the Zetsu being fried by Sasuke. Shedding could be a problem though.

Regardless, Kabuto has no way to hurt Itachi when he's using Susano'o and the one counter he has-Demonic Flute-he won't be able to use before being interrupted.

[JLI2infinity]

Originally Posted by Godaime Kazekage

@JLI2:

White Rage: The fact is Itachi was able to maintain Susano'o before Kabuto could attack Sasuke-White Rage isn't doing anything for Kabuto.

Demonic Flute: Itachi and Sasuke were arguing when he was materializing the Sound Four-Itachi would have plenty of time to counter it. They only got hit, because they were hiding and not even looking at Kabuto-I can't believe that you're trying to argue that Kabuto can pull off the whole thing without first getting hit by ammy or having to counter a fireball.

Boss Summons: When has Kabuto demonstrated that he can summon all of those things at the same time? All he can summon is Manda 2 who is an easy target for Amaterasu.

Dodging Ammy: We've been over this-Itachi wasn't trying to kill Sasuke-Sasuke couldn't outrun Amaterasu. They never even attempted to use Amaterasu on Kabuto-maybe Itachi didn't know that Sasuke could extinguish the flames. The burn doesn't have to be slow either-see the Zetsu being fried by Sasuke. Shedding could be a problem though.

Regardless, Kabuto has no way to hurt Itachi when he's using Susano'o and the one counter he has-Demonic Flute-he won't be able to use before being interrupted.

Not arguing Amaterasu anymore I've countered it 3 times already and shedding renders it useless. Kabuto summoned six snakes at once to start the fight with Itachi and Sasuke >.> and he can still summon Manda 2. Manda can go underground and using Amaterasu on something so large isn't an instant kill. Kabuto's Suiton beats Itachi's Katon so it would leave Itachi rolling around in a huge current if that's your plan to distract Kabuto from using Demonic Flute. You do know that Itachi has no intel right? Itachi barely managed to get up a Susano'o hand, and he still couldn't see. So if Kabuto uses White Rage, all Itachi will be able do is put up a ribcage to protect himself from damage. In the meantime Kabuto can do any technique he chooses. He can use Muka Tensei and change the battlefield to his liking. Or can perform the Web-Bone Forest combo and trap Itachi while he sets up for Demonic Flute. Kabuto has plenty of techniques that can help him set up Demonic Flute...and now that the Amaterasu argument is done Itachi can't kill him before it happens either.

White Rage --> Earth Wall --> Demonic Flute
White Rage --> Water Dragon Bullet --> Kidomaru's Web
White Rage --> Hiding Like a Mole --> Bone Forest from underground
White Rage --> Manda 2 --> Demonic Flute
White Rage --> Muka Tensei --> Demonic Flute
White Rage --> Kidomaru's Web --> Doton Techniques to trap Itachi

[Godaime Kazekage]

Originally Posted by JLI2infinity

Not arguing Amaterasu anymore I've countered it 3 times already and shedding renders it useless. Kabuto summoned six snakes at once to start the fight with Itachi and Sasuke >.> and he can still summon Manda 2. Manda can go underground and using Amaterasu on something so large isn't an instant kill. Kabuto's Suiton beats Itachi's Katon so it would leave Itachi rolling around in a huge current if that's your plan to distract Kabuto from using Demonic Flute. You do know that Itachi has no intel right? Itachi barely managed to get up a Susano'o hand, and he still couldn't see. So if Kabuto uses White Rage, all Itachi will be able do is put up a ribcage to protect himself from damage. In the meantime Kabuto can do any technique he chooses. He can use Muka Tensei and change the battlefield to his liking. Or can perform the Web-Bone Forest combo and trap Itachi while he sets up for Demonic Flute. Kabuto has plenty of techniques that can help him set up Demonic Flute...and now that the Amaterasu argument is done Itachi can't kill him before it happens either.

White Rage --> Earth Wall --> Demonic Flute
White Rage --> Water Dragon Bullet --> Kidomaru's Web
White Rage --> Hiding Like a Mole --> Bone Forest from underground
White Rage --> Manda 2 --> Demonic Flute
White Rage --> Muka Tensei --> Demonic Flute
White Rage --> Kidomaru's Web --> Doton Techniques to trap Itachi

I was under the impression that they had all manga knowledge, so he'd know about Demonic Flute, White Rage, etc. Itachi also seemed pretty confident that White Rage would not work on him again. If they don't have knowledge why would Kabuto deviate to your strategy instead of repeating what he actually did in the manga?

Itachi uses Izanami on Kabuto while he's using Demonic Flute...Kabuto is stuck playing the flute for eternity

Edit: You like to use Demonic Flute as a be all, end all argument, but the fact is that the freshly promoted to Chunin, Shikamaru, broke out of that Genjutsu. I don't see how Itachi, the master of Genjutsu, can't. And before you say he needs Sasuke to do it-you don't know that-it was just the easiest method to break them both out of the Genjutsu at the time.

[321zigzag3]

Izanami requires an actual prep time via battle action directly.

Itachi himself admitted it wasn't the most practical option most cases.

It forces you to fight a bit differently.

[JLI2infinity]

Originally Posted by 321zigzag3

Izanami requires an actual prep time via battle action directly.

Itachi himself admitted it wasn't the most practical option most cases.

It forces you to fight a bit differently.

^^^^^^^^^^^^^THIS...It requires prep time. It is not instant. He has to create a series of events that can lead to a loop after some unknown period of prep. That is why he needed Sasuke the entire fight.


Shikamaru broke out of it with a mind that calculates 200 moves ahead, and a technique that operated regardless of his mental state. Itachi doesn't have any jutsu like that. Not only that but Shikamaru had been watching Tayuya for hours planning his strategy. BTW Kabuto's Demonic Flute is enhanced by his sage chakra making it more powerful.

And before you say he needs Sasuke to do it-you don't know that-it was just the easiest method to break them both out of the Genjutsu at the time.

Logical fallacy...argument from ignorance. You're asserting the positive claim that Itachi would have been able to break the genjutsu on his own. Not only do you not have evidence but his actions demonstrated the opposite. Even if there is another way as you pointed out it's most likely more difficult, therefore Itachi will not have the time to use it. He and Sasuke had to break the technique immediately otherwise Kabuto would have defeated them. A more challenging or more time consuming method would not have worked. Calling him the king of genjutsu does nothing for your argument (and I'd actually venture to say that Shisui was the king of genjutsu, however since Itachi's can be used more often I'd say your choice is just as valid).

[BMC1994]

Originally Posted by JLI2infinity

^^^^^^^^^^^^^THIS...It requires prep time. It is not instant. He has to create a series of events that can lead to a loop after some unknown period of prep. That is why he needed Sasuke the entire fight.

Yes it does require some prep but since Kabuto is not going to get past the yata mirror this wont matter at all.

Shikamaru broke out of it with a mind that calculates 200 moves ahead, and a technique that operated regardless of his mental state. Itachi doesn't have any jutsu like that. Not only that but Shikamaru had been watching Tayuya for hours planning his strategy. BTW Kabuto's Demonic Flute is enhanced by his sage chakra making it more powerful.

He broke out of it by causing pain to himself thats like genjutsu 101.
We do not know in which way it was more powerfull. Kabuto version didnt seem to restrict movements because they were able to turn their heads.

Logical fallacy...argument from ignorance. You're asserting the positive claim that Itachi would have been able to break the genjutsu on his own. Not only do you not have evidence but his actions demonstrated the opposite. Even if there is another way as you pointed out it's most likely more difficult, therefore Itachi will not have the time to use it. He and Sasuke had to break the technique immediately otherwise Kabuto would have defeated them. A more challenging or more time consuming method would not have worked.

The point is the exact same version of the genjutsu has been used on a fresh chuunin who managed to break out of it. Ofcourse there is a huge gap between tayuya and kabuto. But there is atleast an equally as large gap between pts shika and itachi.

[Godaime Kazekage]

Originally Posted by JLI2infinity

^^^^^^^^^^^^^THIS...It requires prep time. It is not instant. He has to create a series of events that can lead to a loop after some unknown period of prep. That is why he needed Sasuke the entire fight.
He didn't need Sasuke at all. He was planning to fight Kabuto on his own and actually thought of Sasuke as a hindrance when he first showed up. I don't see how it would be hard for Itachi to take the "snapshots" a few seconds in between notes that Kabuto is playing (although this would make Izanami way OP, so maybe the snapshots needs more time in between).

Shikamaru broke out of it with a mind that calculates 200 moves ahead, and a technique that operated regardless of his mental state. Itachi doesn't have any jutsu like that. Not only that but Shikamaru had been watching Tayuya for hours planning his strategy. BTW Kabuto's Demonic Flute is enhanced by his sage chakra making it more powerful.
Are you trying to argue that PTS Shikamaru is more intelligent than Itachi He may have an IQ of 200, but he's never done anything so intelligent/cunning that it impressed me. Itachi turned Kurenai's own genjutsu against her and she's supposed to be an elite Genjutsu specialist. Kabuto's sage enhanced genjutsu may be too strong for Itachi to reflect, but he could certainly break out.


Logical fallacy...argument from ignorance. You're asserting the positive claim that Itachi would have been able to break the genjutsu on his own. Not only do you not have evidence but his actions demonstrated the opposite. Even if there is another way as you pointed out it's most likely more difficult, therefore Itachi will not have the time to use it. He and Sasuke had to break the technique immediately otherwise Kabuto would have defeated them. A more challenging or more time consuming method would not have worked. Calling him the king of genjutsu does nothing for your argument (and I'd actually venture to say that Shisui was the king of genjutsu, however since Itachi's can be used more often I'd say your choice is just as valid).
So now that Itachi has never been shown to break out of Demonic Flute by himself he can't do it? I guess A can't defeat Moegi, because he's never been shown to do it.

But here's what I'm basing my statement that Itachi could break out of Demonic Flute from:
As I mentioned above, Itachi has been shown to not only break out of, but reflect Genjutsu from a supposed Genjutsu master.

Shikamaru broke out of the same genjutsu.

Itachi and Sasuke using their Sharingan genjutsu on each other is a faster/easier method than Itachi breaking out and running over to Sasuke to break him out of the Genjutsu.

But what do I know? I'm just an ignorant person that constructs his arguments on logical fallacies

In bold.

[JLI2infinity]

Sigh, first of all your specific logical fallacy was called "argument from ignorance" I wasn't actually calling you ignorant. Second of all Kurenai's genjutsu is not a factor here. As I said before this is a Demonic Flute enhanced by Kabuto's sage chakra. Senjutsu are on a completely different level than ordinary jutsu. As such Itachi you don't have the evidence to asser that Itachi can just see through the technique like ordinary genjutsu. Kabuto specifically said to Kurenai, "a technique of this level won't work on me." He said no such thing to Kabuto instead he looked at Sasuke to break him out, meaning the technique obviously worked.

Your A vs. Moegi example is you caricaturing the fallacy to try to discredit my argument. There are other basic aspects of logic that make using argument from ignorance for every little thing absurd, I'll just use transitive logic (e.g. A > B and B > C therefore A>C). While it is impossible for us to know with 100% certainty whether or not A can defeat Moegi there are millions of examples that provide evidence that something like that should be well within his capabilities. A has fought on par with Bee who stomped Taka which consisted of skilled jonin level shinobi who completely outrank Moegi. Or I could just provide basic examples. Moegi was scared to death to fight any of the paths of Pain while A would be a threat to all six if he took them on individually.

Like I said before Shikamaru has three things Itachi doesn't (1) a computational brain that runs through the next 200 moves in a scenario, (2) he had the time to observe Tayuya's technique for hours determine the mechanics behind it and predict when the genjutsu was coming, (3) he has a technique that operates independent of his will that he was able to set up before going into the genjutsu, Itachi doesn't have anything like that. I explained all this in my last post but you seemed to just see a comparison between Itachi and Shikamaru and started tuning out. Intelligence is a complex subject you can have an outstanding brilliance but that doesn't give you access to the same skills other people with your level of intellect have. Some people are amazing spatial thinkers (something Temari and Shikamaru both demonstrated in their fight), and others are brilliant analysts (people like Itachi and Minato who can figure out the mechanics of techniques by looking at them). One person with high IQ may have an eidetic memory while many of the people with that same IQ don't have that gift. All that is to say Shikamaru's ability to plan moves out in his head is unique to him and his father.

[Godaime Kazekage]

Originally Posted by JLI2infinity

Sigh, first of all your specific logical fallacy was called "argument from ignorance" I wasn't actually calling you ignorant. Second of all Kurenai's genjutsu is not a factor here. As I said before this is a Demonic Flute enhanced by Kabuto's sage chakra. Senjutsu are on a completely different level than ordinary jutsu. As such Itachi you don't have the evidence to asser that Itachi can just see through the technique like ordinary genjutsu. Kabuto specifically said to Kurenai, "a technique of this level won't work on me." He said no such thing to Kabuto instead he looked at Sasuke to break him out, meaning the technique obviously worked.

Your A vs. Moegi example is you caricaturing the fallacy to try to discredit my argument. There are other basic aspects of logic that make using argument from ignorance for every little thing absurd, I'll just use transitive logic (e.g. A > B and B > C therefore A>C). While it is impossible for us to know with 100% certainty whether or not A can defeat Moegi there are millions of examples that provide evidence that something like that should be well within his capabilities. A has fought on par with Bee who stomped Taka which consisted of skilled jonin level shinobi who completely outrank Moegi. Or I could just provide basic examples. Moegi was scared to death to fight any of the paths of Pain while A would be a threat to all six if he took them on individually.

Like I said before Shikamaru has three things Itachi doesn't (1) a computational brain that runs through the next 200 moves in a scenario, (2) he had the time to observe Tayuya's technique for hours determine the mechanics behind it and predict when the genjutsu was coming, (3) he has a technique that operates independent of his will that he was able to set up before going into the genjutsu, Itachi doesn't have anything like that. I explained all this in my last post but you seemed to just see a comparison between Itachi and Shikamaru and started tuning out. Intelligence is a complex subject you can have an outstanding brilliance but that doesn't give you access to the same skills other people with your level of intellect have. Some people are amazing spatial thinkers (something Temari and Shikamaru both demonstrated in their fight), and others are brilliant analysts (people like Itachi and Minato who can figure out the mechanics of techniques by looking at them). One person with high IQ may have an eidetic memory while many of the people with that same IQ don't have that gift. All that is to say Shikamaru's ability to plan moves out in his head is unique to him and his father.

Are you trying to argue that Tayuya's genjutsu is better than Kurenai's? I seriously doubt that. When it's sage enhanced than probably yes, but still not something Itachi would sweat over. Itachi was completely calm and relaxed when he was under the genjutsu and even had a conversation with Kabuto and Sasuke-he wasn't pressured at all, and clearly showed he didn't think that genjutsu was something to worry about. I don't know why you're berating me for saying Itachi could break out of the genjutsu when he's easily the best genjutsu user in the series, demonstrated the ability to break out of genjutsu before, and wasn't worried about the genjutsu at all when he was under it.

The thing about Shikamaru is you're playing up his intelligence and how he analyzed Tayuya to come up with a counter to his genjutsu, when as BMC1994 said, he broke out of it with pain-Genjutsu 101. Itachi is much more well-versed in genjutsu than Shikamaru and would obviously have a more sophisticated counter to the genjutsu than breaking his finger.