Jiraiya Vs Kabutomaru

[PrinceofPeace]

Originally Posted by BMC1994

No but ill come back on that later

You think that.
Sannin = Kage level ninja
Kabuto compared to pts kakashi = High end jonin/anbu.
Kage> Anbu.
Kabuto is like Oro now but better.... so Kabuto is passed sannin/kage level
I never said he didnt i said kabuto wont know it while jiraiya is in base.
That is because he is not in SM
He used oros kuchiyose and i dont think he used anything else after that.(ill check later)
He was unable to continue to battle that is defeated in my book. We were discussing Pts kabuto since PoP said that pts kabuto> Base jiraiya. which is *censored*
When did I say this??/ It would be silly to talk about another battle. Talk about it in another thread.

A battle with no killing intent doesnt sounds as serious as one with it. If the uchihax wanted to kill him he would have been dead by totsuka/Izanami>stab. Kabuto did better than what Jiryria could do since Jiryria is not as fast as Kabuto nor can hide himself. ALso Jiryria is not as genjutsu resistant.
So to recap: Genin, Scared to death Women, Fodder, Uchihax without killing intent.
Meanwhile Jiraiya vs Guy who killed the majority of konohas population.
Give speed feats of Jiryria NOT IN SM... I gave Kabuto's . Why do you keep dodging this.

All kabuto endured was getting his horn cut i dont call that stamina at all.
Jiraiya used plenty of powerfull jutsu vs pain what is your point?
Uzumaki genes
karin/Kabuto healing abilities

you do the math. And remeber all of the stamina feats of Naruto and his family
Dark swamp doesnt work on the surface it effect the ground it self and turns it into a swamp in which everything sinks.
Proof of that?
So Kabuto changes from solid in a stomach to Liquid in a stomach. yay kabuto.
Kabuto goes underground

That is were frog song comes in.
You have not said how Jiryria would get the prep to use it

So kabuto gets feats he has not shown but jiraiya does not *strokes beard which i dont have* hmmm... intresting (this is me coming back on it)
what feats have kabuto not shown... if you mean the DNA than why not he has all the abiltities so he CAN use them. WHile Jiryria does not want his toad friends to get hurt and summoning 3 would be an overreaction when Jiryria does not know much about his foe. Jiryria did not even summon more than 1 against pain and his multiple summonings
.

Jiryria speed feats please

[BMC1994]

Like oro dont think so he may have his genes but his fighting style involves alot less snakes there isnt anything that even implies he is at orochimarus level.

That is what i have been trying to tell you

Originally Posted by PrinceofPeace

Kabut (without SM)>>>>>>Jiryria (without SM)

Kabuto without Kcm is basicly Pts Kabuto with manda and body shedding.

Jiraiya has fukusaku and shima to break him out of genjutsu so in SM he is quite genjutsu resistant.

Being faster then a genin and a scared women does NOT make you faster then jiraiya that is what i have been trying to say.

And i already gave you speed feats
-able to battle oro
-able to battle 4 tails
-able to battle konan
All were(most likely) in base.
while base kabuto even with orochimaru cells has no speed feats except the snake tail thing.
And here is my point.

Since their speed boost comes from the same source they dont differ much.
So the Faster Base jiraiya would also be faster in SM (or atleast equal)

He said he had karins healing ability not her stamina.

Right here:
Naruto Chapter 166 Page 7

When he goes underground> Dark swamp.

To make it clear.
Fukusaku and shima the 2 toads on his shoulders need the prep.
Jiraiya himself can still fight kabuto WHILE the toads are prepping.
Get it?

If naruto can summon all 3 then his master jiraiya can so too.
Kabuto has only shown DNA in sm through a sakon clone. He has never displayed having access to it outside of SM.

Already gave you speed feats. of base and sm jiraiya read my previous posts.

[PrinceofPeace]

Originally Posted by BMC1994

Like oro dont think so he may have his genes but his fighting style involves alot less snakes there isnt anything that even implies he is at orochimarus level.

SO what, kabuto has better summonings and better snakes. Kabuto is a medic and is smarter and has tons of DNA and a better edo tensi. How is Kabuto not better? Even in chap 579 Saskue said the snakes were bigger.

Kabuto without Kcm is basicly Pts Kabuto with manda and body shedding.
do not forget the Dna
Jiraiya has fukusaku and shima to break him out of genjutsu so in SM he is quite genjutsu resistant.
yes but how do they buy time to cast genjutsu on their own
Being faster then a genin and a scared women does NOT make you faster then jiraiya that is what i have been trying to say.

And i already gave you speed feats
-able to battle oro- Jiryria was drugged (
-able to battle 4 tails - No info on that battle... irrelevant.
-able to battle konan- examples of his speed???
All were(most likely) in base.
SPecific speed examples not just battles he had.
while base kabuto even with orochimaru cells has no speed feats except the snake tail thing
So that jutsu still makes him faster than Jiryria.
And here is my point.

Since their speed boost comes from the same source they dont differ much.
So the Faster Base jiraiya would also be faster in SM (or atleast equal)
Yet base Kabuto is faster than Base Jiryria so if they both went in SM Kabuto would be faster. You have not shown a specific speed feat of Jiryria. Kabuto is even faster not going into SM he would be around Oro's speed

He said he had karins healing ability not her stamina.
chapter 579 pgs 9-10. Not all of the uzumaki's had healing powers but they all had strong life forces.... aka stamina/willpower


Right here:
Naruto Chapter 166 Page 7

When he goes underground> Dark swamp.

I alrady said Shed skin>> dark swamp. Also going underground was for Toad mouth bind

To make it clear.
Fukusaku and shima the 2 toads on his shoulders need the prep.
Jiraiya himself can still fight kabuto WHILE the toads are prepping.
Get it?
Jiryria did not fight the Pains though he ran away and hid until he thought of a plan. Again I ask how would the frogs get the needed prep time? How is Jiryria going to fight kabuto without the toads for back up?

If naruto can summon all 3 then his master jiraiya can so too.
Kabuto has only shown DNA in sm through a sakon clone. He has never displayed having access to it outside of SM. - Without SM Kabuto is still stronger. He is greater than Oro due to Kabuto's intleigence and medical skillz. Jiryria could not even beat Oro alone so how does Jiryria suddenly stand a chance now
AGAIN I never said he could not summon all 3 I just said it was not in his character.
- He has never summoned all 3 in life-or-death battles
- He even sent on of his boss toads away when he went into SM
- Pain summoned multiple summonings yet Jiryria only stayed with one


Already gave you speed feats. of base and sm jiraiya read my previous posts.
no you just gave battles not specific speed feats.

Main points

- Jiryria has less knowledge of Kabuto and is not thinking about SM
- Jiryria does not like to use SM
- Jiryria will not summon off the bat because Kabuto does not summon off the bat
- It is out of character for Jiryria to summon all 3 boss toads
- Kabuto is faster than Jiryria
- Kabuto has more skillz/jutsu, kabuto can heal faster, kabuto is smarter
- Jiryria could never beat Oro
- Kabuto is stronger than Oro
- Frog song takes toooo much prep
- Kabuto can shed skin to avoid serious damage and is hard to find

[BMC1994]

Kabuto doesnt get edo tensei. Bigger =/= Better.

We have no proof he can even use that in base. So no he doesnt get the DNA.
(You cant go using SM feats in base would make no sense).

I said jiraiya just continues fighting like he would normally only this there are a pair of frongs making sounds. Jiraiya will occupy kabuto while the frogs prep with his various justus.

The fact that he was drugged maked it even a better feat (note the drug was not a beneficial one)
Since we know that there is a enormous speed requirement for battling the 4 tails and we have information on the 4 tails it is not irrelevant at all.
Him able to suprise an s-rank criminal with his jutsu. And just another pointer to the speed already required just to do jiraiyas battles.
Those battles are already speed feats.

Based on what?

Again Kabuto specificly said healing powers not stamina.

Shedding your skin in a dark swamp will just let kabuto end up in dark swamp again as it is quite large.

He follows up Toad Mouth bind with dark swamp. Anyway kabuto will get hit by one of these.

Because he was trying figure out information about his enemy which he knew nothing about and pain just summoned 2 more of himself. Like he would normally with dark swamps/toadmouth binds/fire jutsu whatever he wants to throw at kabuto.

We never even have seen oro go out all so you cant say kabuto is better.
In oros battles he either played around , was sick, and had his arms sealed better then a sick orochimaru? maybe. But we can say nothing about a completely healthy oro.

Kabuto has never used Dna in base and snake tail in SM. But i said ALL feats in base are kept in SM regardless if he has shown them in SM or not.
Jiraiya summoned Gamaken for the sheer purpose of stalling for sage mode. Hence when he entered it his job was done.

Those battles are speed feats and i gave you specific ones of SM jiraiya.

[PrinceofPeace]

Originally Posted by BMC1994

Kabuto doesnt get edo tensei. Bigger =/= Better.
It was just and example of how he was better than Oro.

We have no proof he can even use that in base. So no he doesnt get the DNA.
(You cant go using SM feats in base would make no sense).
Kabuto likes using SM unlike Jiryria so Kabuto would use SM before Jiryria would be able to

I said jiraiya just continues fighting like he would normally only this there are a pair of frongs making sounds. Jiraiya will occupy kabuto while the frogs prep with his various justus.
And HOW will Jiryria fight back what will he do? Kabuto can even attack the frogs if he wanted to. When Jiryria fought the Pains .. Jiryria ran away and then used fire style to distract them and Kabuto can beat that with water style

The fact that he was drugged maked it even a better feat (note the drug was not a beneficial one) Yet yous just gave the battle and you did not show any specific speed feats
Since we know that there is a enormous speed requirement for battling the 4 tails and we have information on the 4 tails it is not irrelevant at all. We do not even know if he used Sage mode or if he used summonings. We only know that Jiryria almost died trying to surpress Naruto THATS IT. If Jiryria was so fast he would have been able to dodge that attack that casued him a scar.... but he did not. Again this is not a SPECIFIC speed feat.
Him able to suprise an s-rank criminal with his jutsu. And just another pointer to the speed already required just to do jiraiyas battles. Any specific examples there???
Those battles are already speed feats.No you gave no speed feats you just listed battles Jiryria was in. Be specific

Based on what?
Based on you have shown no speed feats. you just listed battles

Again Kabuto specificly said healing powers not stamina.
^ WHere is the chapter and page that says this. I gave you the one that said Life Forces (stamina) Kabuto has ALL of the DNA from Karin just like ALL of the DNA from the others. Why would Kabuto leave out that staminia. Why would their be an image of past uzumaki's that can not heal and only have willpower.

Shedding your skin in a dark swamp will just let kabuto end up in dark swamp again as it is quite large.
How will Jiryria even use this attack?? The last time he used it he was on the enemy snake away from danger, so he can not use it on the ground and if he uses it while he is on a boss toad then the boss toad will sink. So even if he uses SOTU it will not be that big

He follows up Toad Mouth bind with dark swamp. Anyway kabuto will get hit by one of these.
^ Same of what I said before but Kabuto can also either run or use shed skin or use a summoning (worse case secniro)

Because he was trying figure out information about his enemy which he knew nothing about and pain just summoned 2 more of himself. Like he would normally with dark swamps/toadmouth binds/fire jutsu whatever he wants to throw at kabuto.

I already said how Kabuto defeats dark swamp and toad mouth binds.
Kabuto uses water ninjutsu to beat fire jutsu. Whil Ma +Pa prpe their genjutsu Kabuto can also use his genjutsu. The audio genjutsu will force them to try and break it. Doing this would be a distraction for MA+Pa and frog song will not be possible because they do not have enough time/prep cuz they are constantly getting out of genjutsu

We never even have seen oro go out all so you cant say kabuto is better.
In oros battles he either played around , was sick, and had his arms sealed better then a sick orochimaru? maybe. But we can say nothing about a completely healthy oro.
Kabuto himself said he was stronger/better and the Uchiha's and nobody else disagreed. We are going by feats so yes Kabuto is better. You have given nothing to say that Oro is better. A completely healthy Oro got his armed seals away and was overconfident. You have given nothing that proves Oro is better all you have done is assume. Give me some facts

Kabuto has never used Dna in base and snake tail in SM. But i said ALL feats in base are kept in SM regardless if he has shown them in SM or not.
Jiraiya summoned Gamaken for the sheer purpose of stalling for sage mode. Hence when he entered it his job was done.
So
- SInce Jiryria can go into SM easily he does not need Gamaken
or
- The only boss summoning Jiryria will use will be Gamaken

Those battles are speed feats and i gave you specific ones of SM jiraiya.
Kabuto dodged a Susanoo arrow>>>>> All of Jiryria speed feats
Kabuto captured Yamato and escaped

PTS Jiryria <<<<< PTS Kabuto (speed wise)

how is Oro better than Kabuto???
How is Jiryria faster than Kabuto????
Jiryria will only use 1 summoning (if that)

[BMC1994]

Bigger still =/= Better.

They can both enter sage mode instantly so who enters first doesnt matter. Likes/Dislikes dont matter in a life or death battle.

Jiraiya suprised that pein with a water attacks kabuto cant sync all his water attacks with jiraiyas fire attacks. Jiraiya has nowhere to run to because its an open crater hence jiraiya fights kabuto until frog song is ready.

The battles that jiraiya has done already require way above avarage speed that is why those battles are speedfeats by themselves.Jiraiya only had 2 onscreen battles 1 in which he was drugged and the other where he uses sage mode. Leaving little feats for base jiraiya.
Capturing itachi and kisame with toad mouth bind before they could do anything.
Hitting Konan with toad oil bullet(konan aint slow).
Naruto 146 Page 19 Fast enough to intercept Kisames attack.( This puts him up there with kisame on land and Base Bee)
Naruto 147 Page 18 Toad Bind Cast before naruto reaches Itachi. (read page 16-17 too)
By powerscaling he should be around as fast as oro was.

Thats doesnt even make sense Jiraiya can use the jutsu whenever he likes.
Also jiraiya stated he could have made the swamp bigger if he was not drugged.
You are even wrong on the last time he used it because the last time was against pain.

You cant run from a enclosed area or a swamp that sinks everything. Shedding his skin will do nothing as he ends up again in the dark swamp or toad mouth bind. I doubt he would be able to summon while sinking in the dark swamp. If it was possible to summon in dark swamp pain would have done it. Besides if skin shedding worked the giant snakes captured by it would have done that. And i doubt kabuto would be able to go underground since jiraiyas toad mouth bind was fast enough to trap itachi and kisame before they could do anything.

And kabuto is totally not gonna get barraged by senbon/fire jutsu/goemon/oil/summons/Hair because jiraiya is just going to let make the sakon clone switch to kimi and then switch to tayuya. No he isnt.
Demonic Flute needs some prep itself.

.Tobi also said he was madara it was a lie. Kabuto was also powered up because of orochimarus chakra . Naruto 593 Page 15
No one disagreed on tobi being madara turned out to be false. Also he was defeated by itachi the same way oro was(genjutsu) doesnt sound like much of an improvement.

Read my OP or stop posting in this thread jiraiya can summon whatever the **** he wants in SM kabuto can too.

Before that happened kabuto himself was captured. By Yamato&co if he was so fast that wouldnt have happened.What gave him the speed to dodge the arrow ? Sage mode.Who else uses sage mode? Jiraiya. 'same engine same performances'And after that kabuto did get hit by an susanoo arrow
Naruto 580 Page 12.

Those feats above are from a kabuto after the timeskip with oro cells. Again outspeeding a genin and a scared women does not make you faster then jiraiya.Jiraiya> Naruto> PTS kabuto. Wait he wasnt faster then a genin. There goes another pts speed feat. Kabutomaru is possibly faster but an pts kabuto absolutely not.

My point is that its hard to judge that without having seen an all out oro.How is kabuto faster then jiraiya who can atleast keep up with oro. Even if he was he cant blitz jiraiya so the difference does not matter.He isnt restricted to 1 summoning.

Let me tell you the reason i think jiraiya would win:

The only thing kabuto has on jiraiya which wouldnt take too long is white rage and anything he does after that. But techniques can be activated during White Rage before kabuto gets close.
Naruto 580 Page 6. Thats why jiraiya can guard with needle jizo. Stopping/ Or atleast make attacks from his chakra scaples, Bones and Webs non-lethal.

Webs: You were right in that kimimaros webs will not be destroyed but they can be dodged with jiraiyas sage speed.

Muki tensei: Will not work in toad mouth bind jiraiya simply has to summon it and he would be protected. Jiraiya always has atleast 1 of his giant pals to stand on if the environment gets to violent.

Then there is demonic flute kabuto last save but he needs to do multiple things before he can uses just like jiraiya he needs prep. (So both frog song and Demonic flute will not be used first)

Defense against White Rage is possible. But there isnt any way i know that will let kabuto escape from dark swamp/Toad Mouth bind. Really Kabuto isnt escaping Dark Swamp or Toad Mouth Bind. Not even with all his DnA.He lacks destructive power to break himself out of toad mouth bind. And Skin shedding wont work in dark swamp because if that was possible the giant snakes would have done that and even if it was possible kabuto just ends up in the giant dark swamp again.(Kabutos is fast but these are Large Scale Attacks which cover a large part of the area)

This why i think Kabuto would lose.

[PrinceofPeace]

Originally Posted by BMC1994

Bigger still =/= Better.
^ WHat is that supposed to mean. Give me proof on how Oro is better than Kabuto?? If Kabuto and Oro were to battle Kabuto would win hands down. Kabuto IS Oro plus his own skills and the DNA of others.

They can both enter sage mode instantly so who enters first doesnt matter. Likes/Dislikes dont matter in a life or death battle.
Kabuto has suppassed Oro in base so Kabuto can beat him in base. Jiryria can instanly use SM but it is if he choses in time. Jiryria was in plenty life or death situtiations but did not use SM unless he was facing a strong foe. Jiryria will not know he is stronger than Konan or about Pain's level. Also even when Jiryria goes into SM he likes to play around be introducing himself which is IN CHARACTER. Jiryria does not battle seriously and plays around. Kabuto would attack when he sees an opening like that. Just like how he captured Yamato

Jiraiya suprised that pein with a water attacks kabuto cant sync all his water attacks with jiraiyas fire attacks. Jiraiya has nowhere to run to because its an open crater hence jiraiya fights kabuto until frog song is ready.
The pains did not react to the attack with shock. He was able to kick the Human Path. The Animal Path was not suprised because physical attacks like that were futile, and he even complimented his attack. THe path was just being ammused.

The battles that jiraiya has done already require way above avarage speed that is why those battles are speedfeats by themselves.Jiraiya only had 2 onscreen battles 1 in which he was drugged and the other where he uses sage mode. Leaving little feats for base jiraiya.
Capturing itachi and kisame with toad mouth bind before they could do anything.
So they still escaped an Kisame was able to slash through the gums. Also Itachi was tired exhausted and holding back

Hitting Konan with toad oil bullet(konan aint slow). It was a direct attack so it would be hard to misss. Esppecially with her wing span
Naruto 146 Page 19 Fast enough to intercept Kisames attack.( This puts him up there with kisame on land and Base Bee) I do not see a speed feats
Naruto 147 Page 18 Toad Bind Cast before naruto reaches Itachi. (read page 16-17 too)
By powerscaling he should be around as fast as oro was. slamming your hands on the ground and activating an attack is not that fast

Thats doesnt even make sense Jiraiya can use the jutsu whenever he likes.
I already said how Kabuto surpases all of his attacks. Kabuto just has to kill one of the frogs anyway
Also jiraiya stated he could have made the swamp bigger if he was not drugged.
And Kabuto can go wherever Jiryria is to get our of the swamp or shed his skin or summon Rashomon to create land to stand on
You are even wrong on the last time he used it because the last time was against pain.
Yeah and the last time he used it HE DIED. Kabuto is on Pain's level and he would beat 4 of those pains.

You cant run from a enclosed area or a swamp that sinks everything. Shedding his skin will do nothing as he ends up again in the dark swamp or toad mouth bind. I doubt he would be able to summon while sinking in the dark swamp. If it was possible to summon in dark swamp pain would have done it. Besides if skin shedding worked the giant snakes captured by it would have done that. And i doubt kabuto would be able to go underground since jiraiyas toad mouth bind was fast enough to trap itachi and kisame before they could do anything.
Toad mouth bind can not make an enclosed area. Also the attack leaves Jiryria wide open and Kabuto can create a standstill by using earth wall or Rashomon. Kabuto can also attack from under Jiryria with Bones. Yeah Dark swamp does sink EVERYTHING even the user. SO Kabuto just has to make a standstill or go where Jiryria goes or Shed his skin. Jiryria did not give the Animal path time to summon. WHAT ARE YOU READING?!?!?!?! THe animal path was not in the swamp of the underworld. Kisame wanted to say and fight but Itachi said know and he was tired and was holding back. The giant snakes did not have the ability to shed their skin

And kabuto is totally not gonna get barraged by senbon/fire jutsu/goemon/oil/summons/Hair because jiraiya is just going to let make the sakon clone switch to kimi and then switch to tayuya. No he isnt.
Demonic Flute needs some prep itself.
How would Jiryria not let Kabuto attack? Kabuto's attacks do not take that long.
Earth wall beats senbon
water style beats fire jutsu
ainmation beats goemon
oil does nothing by itsel
Manda II >> summonings
animation beats hair
Jiryria does nto have instant atttacks even the Pain's reacted to them

.Tobi also said he was madara it was a lie. Kabuto was also powered up because of orochimarus chakra . Naruto 593 Page 15
No one disagreed on tobi being madara turned out to be false. Also he was defeated by itachi the same way oro was(genjutsu) doesnt sound like much of an improvement.
That is TOTALLY different. Just because he lied does not mean Kabuto is. You have no proof. Tobi does not even have the same abilities as Madara. Who knows he still might be Madara. Using Tobi's idenetity is unreliabale. Kabuto is stronger than Oro. the Uchiha's did not argue with that fact. Itachi was and EDO!!! Kabuto could have killed him if he was not an edo. Also this was the strongest genjutsu ever so It is a major improvement

Read my OP or stop posting in this thread jiraiya can summon whatever the **** he wants in SM kabuto can too.
Yes he CAN but in character he has not.

Before that happened kabuto himself was captured. By Yamato&co if he was so fast that wouldnt have happened.What gave him the speed to dodge the arrow ? Sage mode.Who else uses sage mode? Jiraiya. 'same engine same performances'And after that kabuto did get hit by an susanoo arrow
Naruto 580 Page 12.
Kabuto wanted to be captrued so he could surprise his foes. By letting himself be captured he actually CAPTURED Yamato and the company just stood their. Just because they both have SM speed does not mean they can do the same thing. We are going by the speed they have shown. The susano arrow hit Kabuto's SNAKE NOT Kabuto.

Those feats above are from a kabuto after the timeskip with oro cells. Again outspeeding a genin and a scared women does not make you faster then jiraiya.Jiraiya> Naruto> PTS kabuto. Wait he wasnt faster then a genin. There goes another pts speed feat. Kabutomaru is possibly faster but an pts kabuto absolutely not.
Tsunade was not scared for the entire battle. And this is no normal genin we are talkling about it is Naruto.

My point is that its hard to judge that without having seen an all out oro.How is kabuto faster then jiraiya who can atleast keep up with oro. Even if he was he cant blitz jiraiya so the difference does not matter.He isnt restricted to 1 summoning.
That is why we have to go by what we have seen.
And from what we have seen Oro>> Jiryria

Let me tell you the reason i think jiraiya would win:

The only thing kabuto has on jiraiya which wouldnt take too long is white rage and anything he does after that. But techniques can be activated during White Rage before kabuto gets close.
Naruto 580 Page 6. Thats why jiraiya can guard with needle jizo. Stopping/ Or atleast make attacks from his chakra scaples, Bones and Webs non-lethal.
How are bones not leathal?? They destroyed Naruto's clones and are stronger than steel. White rage is just a distraction attack. If Jiryria uses Needle Jizo than Kabuto can use long ranged attacks like water, webs, bones, snakes e.t.c.

Webs: You were right in that kimimaros webs will not be destroyed but they can be dodged with jiraiyas sage speed.
Jiryria can not dodge forever. Jiryria will not be able to dodge them close up and it if spreads accross the battlefield. Kabuto can also shoot the webs on the ground so that Jiryria can not move.

Muki tensei: Will not work in toad mouth bind jiraiya simply has to summon it and he would be protected. Jiraiya always has atleast 1 of his giant pals to stand on if the environment gets to violent.
Exactly so Kabuto would get on the boss toad. Wherever Jiryria owuld be Kabuto would know where to go . The SUmmonings would get hurt. And as you said Jiryria did not want to get his summonings through pain. Kabuto can easily use the environment to his advantage. Also Jiryria usually never summons a boss toad off the bat nor SM

Then there is demonic flute kabuto last save but he needs to do multiple things before he can uses just like jiraiya he needs prep. (So both frog song and Demonic flute will not be used first)
Kabuto does not need nearly as much prep as Jiryria does. In the Manga it would take a page to use that genjutsu and for it to take effect. With Jiryria's genjutsu it would take a chapter to use the attack and for it to take effect and to convince Ma. ( all together that is a chapter at least)

Defense against White Rage is possible. But there isnt any way i know that will let kabuto escape from dark swamp/Toad Mouth bind. Really Kabuto isnt escaping Dark Swamp or Toad Mouth Bind. Not even with all his DnA.He lacks destructive power to break himself out of toad mouth bind. And Skin shedding wont work in dark swamp because if that was possible the giant snakes would have done that and even if it was possible kabuto just ends up in the giant dark swamp again.(Kabutos is fast but these are Large Scale Attacks which cover a large part of the area)
I already said how Kabuto escapes from swamp and mouth bind. Kisame easily slashed through the mouth and you just have to be fast to get away. The giant snakes did not show the ability to shed their skin. Kabuto just has to know where Jiryria is and get near him cuz Jiryria will fall in his own swamp. Kabuto can also make standstills to avoid attacks under or Kabuto can activate the earth to rise.

This why i think Kabuto would lose.

Jiryria is not winning this
In base Kabuto Speed feats
- able to get passed and fool Kakashi
- able to get away from Oro with Snake around him with Oro's intent to kill

[BMC1994]

The Op says they keep all feats in SM so regardless of wheter its out of character they keep their feats(including summons). If you do not understand that then why post?

I just going to post the prove for my points.

Toad Mouth Bind being an Enclosed Area:
Naruto 368 Page 11-17 Jiraiya capturing shinobi with something similiar to toad mouth bind (its not toad mouth bind) in an open area.
Also read page 15,16 it will be clearer then.
Naruto 148 Page 4 Jiraiya Making the walls Close.
There is no a chapter page where Kisame slashes through toad mouth bind. If not post it.
Kabuto Can not use muki tensei in toad mouth bind because there is nothing to control.

Base Jiraiya Speed Feats:
Hitting Konan with toad oil bullet(konan aint slow).
The fact that it was a direct attack and hit her makes it fast.
Also it hit konan herself not her wings.
Naruto 372 Page 8 .
Naruto 146 Page 19 Fast enough to intercept Kisames attack.( This puts him up there with kisame on land and Base Bee)
He Intercepted Naruto Attack Before he can hit naruto.
Naruto 147 Page 18 Toad Bind Cast before naruto reaches Itachi. (read page 16-17 too)
If it manages to catch 2 akatsuki Members it is quite Fast.
By powerscaling he should be around as fast as oro was.

SM Jiraiya Speed Feats:
Naruto Chapter 376 Page 6 Shimas tongue speed.
Naruto 377 page 8 reaction speed feat.
Naruto 377 page 11-12 Jiraiya is a huge distance away from pain . Slipper falls off.
Jiraiya attacks pain with his rasengan before the slipper hits the gorund
Naruto 379 page 7-8 jiraiya interrupt pains summoning jutsu handseal.
He will be able to dodge the webs or stand on gamabunta/other giant frogs.

Dark Swamp Restricting Actions:
Naruto 166 Page 7-8 (Jiraiya saying what dark swamp was actually supposed to do if he was not drugged)
Naruto 378 page 16. Jiraiya using dark swamp against pain.
Snakes are animals which shed their skin. They are snakes. Just like how fish can breathe underwater.

Kabuto Getting hit by the arrow:
Naruto 580 page 12.
That was kabutos 'tail' being hit if you read the next few pages after that you even see that kabuto was trying to free himself because he was stuck. Kabuto 'tail' is a snake that attaches to kabutos stomach.

Why jiraiya ran from pain:
Naruto 378 page 3.

Tsunades Fear:
Naruto 165 Page 4.

Needle Jizo:
Needle jizo is an techniques that defends yourself by wrapping your self in hardened hair that is why kabuto attack will atleast not kill jiraiya.
Needle Jizo hasnt shown any kind of weak to long range attacks.
Infact the hardened hair has quite some range itself:
Naruto 372 Page 9
Naruto 374 Page 7
Long Range Attacks wont make a difference.

Originally Posted by PrinceofPeace

Who knows he still might be Madara

You do know that the actual madara has been revived.?My point is characters are often proven wrong.

Originally Posted by PrinceofPeace

Kabuto wanted to be captrued so he could surprise his foes

He never said or thought he wanted to be captured. He just was captured.

Originally Posted by PrinceofPeace

Kabuto is on Pain's level and he would beat 4 of those pains.

Besides the fact that i disagree with that and it that is another thread.You dont know if he could beat the 4 paths.

Originally Posted by PrinceofPeace

even the Pain's reacted to them

How does one of the most powerfull character in the series (pain) reacting to a attack make it slow?

Originally Posted by PrinceofPeace

And Kabuto can go wherever Jiryria is to get our of the swamp or shed his skin or summon Rashomon to create land to stand on

No he cant because he will be restricted by said swamp.

Originally Posted by PrinceofPeace

Kisame was able to slash through the gums

Besides Samehada not being a slashing weapon he did never did that. If i am wrong give me the chapter page.

Summonings: According to your logic of him never wanting to get his summonings hurt ever(while summonings are used for battle) jiraiya would have never summoned when he did so plenty of times.

My point is Dark Swamp / Toad mouth bind would restrict Kabuto faster then he could do the sound genjutsu. Hence he wins.

[PrinceofPeace]

Originally Posted by BMC1994

The Op says they keep all feats in SM so regardless of wheter its out of character they keep their feats(including summons). If you do not understand that then why post?
Yes they have all feats but they are in character, So they will do what the character has shown. Even if he used summonings he would not summon all at once. Especially when Kabuto has not made a summoning.

I just going to post the prove for my points.
idk why? .

Toad Mouth Bind being an Enclosed Area:
Naruto 373 Jiraiya capturing shinobi with something similiar to toad mouth bind (its not toad mouth bind) in an open area.
All I see is konan captrued by Jiryria's hair and Kabuto could used shed skin to get out of that. This is not anything like toad mouth bind

Also read page 15,16 it will be clearer then.
Naruto 148 Page 4 Jiraiya Making the walls Close.
There is no a chapter page where Kisame slashes through toad mouth bind. If not post it.
Kabuto Can not use muki tensei in toad mouth bind because there is nothing to control.
But chakra scaple can slice throw the stomach and With Kabuto's speed he can out run/slither away. Kabuto can still summon bones from the ground. Also Jiryria is wide open for an attack. Still this attack was used in an enclosed area.

Kisame rips through Toad Mouth Bind
chap 148 pg 3 (and also iin the anime)

Base Jiraiya Speed Feats:
Hitting Konan with toad oil bullet(konan aint slow).
The fact that it was a direct attack and hit her makes it fast.
Also it hit konan herself not her wings.
Konan's wingspan is huge and it was a close ranged attack
Naruto 372 Page 8
Naruto 146 Page 19 Fast enough to intercept Kisames attack.( This puts him up there with kisame on land and Base Bee)
He Intercepted Naruto Attack Before he can hit naruto.
Kisame was overconfident
Summoning attacks are practicaly instant. This does not make Jiryria fast just summoning he is fast
this is PTS Kisame so this does not make him on Base Bee's speed level
Naruto 147 Page 18 Toad Bind Cast before naruto reaches Itachi. (read page 16-17 too)
If it manages to catch 2 akatsuki Members it is quite Fast.
By powerscaling he should be around as fast as oro was.
Jiryria's attacks are instant/fast but JIRYIA is not fast himself
most of his fast attacks are summonings... which are space time ninjutsu which is the fastest kind of ninjutsu
Toad mouth bind did not catch them
How does this mean Jiryria is as fast as Oro.


SM Jiraiya Speed Feats:
Naruto Chapter 376 Page 6 Shimas tongue speed.
Naruto 377 reaction speed feat.
Naruto 377 page 11-12 Jiraiya is a huge distance away from pain . Slipper falls off.
Jiraiya attacks pain with his rasengan before the slipper hits the gorund
Naruto 379 page 7-8 jiraiya interrupt pains summoning jutsu handseal.
He will be able to dodge the webs or stand on gamabunta/other giant frogs.

Dodging a susanoo arrow puts him way above any of these speed feats. Plus Kabuto still has his slithering mode. And I Already said how/why base Kabuto is faster than base Jiryria. You gave attacks that Jiryria used that were fast
Chap: 290 pg 6/7 Kabuto was able to blitz away from Oro's snakes!!!
When has Jiryria ever been able to blitz???



Dark Swamp Restricting Actions:
Naruto 166 Page 7-8 (Jiraiya saying what dark swamp was actually supposed to do if he was not drugged)
Naruto 378 page 16. Jiraiya using dark swamp against pain.
Snakes are animals which shed their skin. They are snakes. Just like how fish can breathe underwater.
Kabuto can either
1- stay close to Jiryria cuz Jiryria will not activate the swamp where he is standing
2- Shed his skin. He did it the last time he was stuck to the ground. Also those snakes did not show the ability to do that and not ALL of Oro's snakes can shed their skin. Manda was a boss summoning and he had that ability
3- Raise the ground under him to get away from the swamp
4- summon Rashormon or earth wall


Kabuto Getting hit by the arrow:
Naruto 580 page 12.
That was kabutos 'tail' being hit if you read the next few pages after that you even see that kabuto was trying to free himself because he was stuck. Kabuto 'tail' is a snake that attaches to kabutos stomach.
Kabuto dodged the arrow so that it did not hit a vital spot. The tail... like his horn is meaningless. Dodging a susanoo arrow puts him way above any of Jiryria's speed feats. Kabuto did not even feel pain

Why jiraiya ran from pain:
Naruto 378 page 3.

Jiryria has NO time to think and run. Thanks to Karin's ability to sense out the foe and since senjutsu can be sensed plus the fact that their is no place to hide. THanks for bringing this fact up!! Jiryria would be flabergasted by the skillz that Kabuto can do and when he would try to make a plan he would not have time to
Needle Jizo:
Needle jizo is an techniques that defends yourself by wrapping your self in hardened hair that is why kabuto attack will atleast not kill jiraiya.
Needle Jizo hasnt shown any kind of weak to long range attacks.
Infact the hardened hair has quite some range itself:
Naruto 372 Page 9
Naruto 374 Page 7
Long Range Attacks wont make a difference.

WIll long range kill him?? Maybe. But will it do damage??? OH YEAH
- Spider webs on the ground at his feet
- Water ninjutsu
- barrage of snakes
- using strength to throw large objects at foe
- inorganic reincarnation

You do know that the actual madara has been revived.?My point is characters are often proven wrong.He never said or thought he wanted to be captured. He just was captured.Besides the fact that i disagree with that and it that is another thread.You dont know if he could beat the 4 paths.How does one of the most powerfull character in the series (pain) reacting to a attack make it slow?
It has not been proven tha what Kabuto said is false so we must believe it is true. Kabuto recognized the handseals that the stone ninja used so he did WANT to be captrued. You have not given proof that Kabuto is inferior to Oro. Kabuto vs the other pats is another thread. ( FYI: white rage would blind all of the paths then Kabuto could take out at least 2)

No he cant because he will be restricted by said swamp.
Besides Samehada not being a slashing weapon he did never did that. If i am wrong give me the chapter page.
Already did ^. I already said how he gets out of swamp ^

Summonings: According to your logic of him never wanting to get his summonings hurt ever(while summonings are used for battle) jiraiya would have never summoned when he did so plenty of times.
I am just restating YOUR theory you originally said that Jiryria did not want his summonings to get hurt. Just go back on the 2nd page post #38 and see for youself

My point is Dark Swamp / Toad mouth bind would restrict Kabuto faster then he could do the sound genjutsu. Hence he wins.
Look ^ Please.

Dark swamp and ESPECIALLLY toad mouth bind will not constrict Kabuto

[BMC1994]

Anyway i gave some wrong chapters i edited them to the right ones.
-Kisame pulled his sword back from the gums that is in no way a slash.
Chakra scaple cant directly slash anything. It does no cutting damage it goes beneath the surface to cut arteries/muscles etc. I already gave you the pages why its an enclosed area. It was atleast mid range. And Konan barely had her wings out.
-There not really much of a difference between pts kisame and ts kisame they have water jutsu and samehada only the ts version doesnt hold back anymore.
The were captured by toad mouth bind they escaped with amaterasu. -.-
-No he didnt they aimed for the tail area look at the boar flashback further more he did not want to kill kabuto. He didnt dodge anything there otherwise he would have been hit.
-That is the reason in pains fight this fight is different in many ways.
He was not flabber gasted at konan skills which are much more suprising then anything kabuto has. Again different fight different situation different tactic. He wont repeat everything he has done against pain in that exact order because kabuto is not pain.
Snakes are not longe range. Jiraiya can also throw things at kabuto yknow he has SM to. Toad mouth bind prevents muki tensei. He can counter water with fire+oil/goemon.
-No kabuto did not want to get captured he never said/thought anything like that. You just assuming he wanted to get captured. Thats your input.
-And i already explained a thousand times that kabuto could not get out of the swamp because it restricts your movements. And i have given you the chapter pages which show/state it.

1. That was against pain who uses multiple giant summons himself while kabuto only has one.
2. Summonings are used for battle.
3. According to your logic of this always preventing jiraiya to summon in each fight he would never summon. Which is false so stop mentioning it.

Kabuto was already surrounded by oros snakes before he even noticed it if oro wanted him dead he would be dead.

[Uchiha Sora]

Your not allowed to name scanlation sites

[BMC1994]

ow srry its just because they put those stupid fanarts between the pages

[PrinceofPeace]

Originally Posted by BMC1994

Anyway i gave some wrong chapters i edited them to the right ones.
yeah no wonder I was so confused. Also we read from different manga sites
-Kisame pulled his sword back from the gums that is in no way a slash.
Chakra scaple cant directly slash anything. It does no cutting damage it goes beneath the surface to cut arteries/muscles etc. I already gave you the pages why its an enclosed area. It was atleast mid range. And Konan barely had her wings out.
Kisame was still able to cut/break away the gums
Chakra scaple was able to bisect Itachi so it can bisect the gums
I read the "right" chapter so how would Jiryria get Kabuto to go inside the house. Toad mouth bind was again only used in an enclosed area. Konan was not even taking the battle seriously. She did not want to harm her sensi plus she knew pain would take care of it. Konan was not prepared for an oil attack and it was a encolsed space for her to run. Overall toad mouth bind will not work

-There not really much of a difference between pts kisame and ts kisame they have water jutsu and samehada only the ts version doesnt hold back anymore.
You still did not prove that Jiryria is fast. You just gave summoning jutsu which are space-time ninjutsu... which are the fastest of all types of ninjutsu. Kisame definetly did not get slower during the past 3 yrs.
The were captured by toad mouth bind they escaped with amaterasu. -.-
Kabuto is slithering mode does not have feet so it would be easier for him to escape plus the fact that Kabuto in that mode is faster than Itachi and Kisame.Also Kabuto could turn liquid.
-No he didnt they aimed for the tail area look at the boar flashback further more he did not want to kill kabuto. He didnt dodge anything there otherwise he would have been hit.
He still dodged the arrow the first time. This is a faster feat than Anything SM Jiryria has done. Also I showed how Base Kabuto is faster than base Jiryria while you have not. So if they went in SM Kabuto would be faster. How does Jiryria keep up with a slithering Kabuto?
-That is the reason in pains fight this fight is different in many ways.
He was not flabber gasted at konan skills which are much more suprising then anything kabuto has. Again different fight different situation different tactic. He wont repeat everything he has done against pain in that exact order because kabuto is not pain.
So your saying Jiryria will not be surprised that Kabuto has SM and all kinds of different DNA?????
Jiryria was not shocked he knew of Konans abilities.
Where are you going with this??????
Snakes are not longe range. Jiraiya can also throw things at kabuto yknow he has SM to. Toad mouth bind prevents muki tensei. He can counter water with fire+oil/goemon.
Toad mouth bind is only for ENCLOSED spaces. When has Jiryria used it outside. the chapter you gave ^ does not help you cuz Jiryria used it inside of a frog. The dance of the seedling fern is a long ranged attack that would penetrate niddle jizo.Kabuto can use earth wall to escape to higher ground and give life to the ground so he can raise the ground to get away from the slow fire attack.

-No kabuto did not want to get captured he never said/thought anything like that. You just assuming he wanted to get captured. Thats your input.
chapter 514 pg 5-12
Kabuto's original plan was to get Naruto
He then saw that it was impossible
After Kabuto recognized the hand signs he decided to take the hit. He knew they were going to take info out og him because Aoba was their. Kabuto wanted to get captured I am not assuming anything
-And i already explained a thousand times that kabuto could not get out of the swamp because it restricts your movements. And i have given you the chapter pages which show/state it.
This does not mean Kabuto can raise the earth to avoid the swamp
Kabuto can shed his skin if neccessary
Jiryria has to make sure to have a great distance between him so he does not ge caught in the swamp

1. That was against pain who uses multiple giant summons himself while kabuto only has one.
Exactly. If Jiryria loved using summonings he would have summoned all 3 to battle all of Pain's summonings
2. Summonings are used for battle.
Thats what I thought but look at what you said in th 38th post. You stated that Jiryria did not want his summonings to get hurt.
3. According to your logic of this always preventing jiraiya to summon in each fight he would never summon. Which is false so stop mentioning it.
Jiryria summons
- When their is a bigger foe/threat
Why would he use a summmoning much less 3 boss summonings for an opponent that he thinks is weaker than Oro and has no summoning ninjutsu??????
MandaII takes all of the boss toads.

Kabuto was already surrounded by oros snakes before he even noticed it if oro wanted him dead he would be dead.
Not only was Kabuto able to get away but he BLITZED away.... when has Jiryria ever blitz?? Oro had dthe intent to kill he had to so Yamato would believ their act.

How would toad mouth bind work in an enclosed space
how do boss toads beat Manda II
How does Jiryria get time for Frog Song
How does Jiryria beat dance of the seedling fern?
Kabuto is faster than Jiryria in base and SM
No physical attacks work with Kabuto
ALSO CHECK THIS OUT
When Kabuto goes into liquid form it reduces the power of vibrations and sounds so frog song would not be at full power. Also Kabuto is an expert at genjutsu so he can disspel it
How does Jiryria find Kabuto when Kabuto uses camoflague jutsu to hide himself?
How does Jiryria beat sticky webs on the ground?

Kabuto is smarter and can analyze Jiryria's attack pattenrs
Kabuto is also faster and has better senses

[BMC1994]

-Jiraiya using it in a enclosed area does not mean he can only use it in an enclosed area.
Kabuto using muki tensei in a cave does not mean it only works in a cave. Jiraiya can even make the walls close in on each other.
Its a summoning there is no summoning that only works inside.(there isnt even a jutsu which only works inside of enclosed areas)
-Pulling a sword out is not cutting he barely even damaged the gums.
-The Uchihax werent suprised at all. Its a different fight from pain. The last time he saw konan was idk how many years ago and she wasnt going all 'angel' back then.
-The page i gave was not toad mouth bind but something similiar. Jiraiya did not use toad mouth bind in that chapter.
-Orochimaru could have killed kabuto right thats not its not a speed feat at all.
-It does not matter what you or i say jiraiya can summon whether you want it or not. Read the Op.
-Kabuto did not want to get captured he just took advantage of the situation when it happened where does he decides he wants to get captured?.
-He didnt dodge the second time so he is not that fast.
-Dark swamp can be big enough to contain a giant snake even if he manages to shed his skin (which the snakes couldnt and if you dont belief that snakes can shed there skin you should pick up some biology)he just going to end in the swamp again.
-You proved kabuto was faster then a scared women and could keep up with naruto(a genin not known his speed) that does not make him faster then jiraiya at all.
-Where does it even say that frog songs strenght comes from the amount of vibration.Nowhere.
-Where does it even say that jiraiya must have a great distance to use dark swamp. Nowhere.
-Ok jiraiyas jutsu are fast enough to keep up with base kisame/bee.

Originally Posted by PrinceofPeace

how do boss toads beat Manda II
3 vs 1 sink him in a giant swamp like he did with another giant snake. Was it not "out of character to summon'' according to you.
How does Jiryria get time for Frog Song
he doesnt have to but if needed he simply fights kabuto till its ready.
How does Jiryria beat dance of the seedling fern?
Stand On Top of a toad. Destroy the bones with cho oodama rasengan.
Kabuto is faster than Jiryria in base and SM
Base No. SM maybe. Speed difference is not enough for jiraiya to get blitzed so it does not matter.
No physical attacks work with Kabuto.
He got hirn horn cut of so some of those do.
How does Jiryria find Kabuto when Kabuto uses camoflague jutsu to hide himself?
Detection barrier.
How does Jiryria beat sticky webs on the ground?
Giant summon.
Kabuto is smarter and can analyze Jiryria's attack pattenrs
Pain couldnt with 6 pair of eyes i doubt kabuto could.
Kabuto is also faster and has better senses
Better senses yes but jiraiya also has detection barriers. Jiriaya wont get blitzed so speed does not matter much. Btw kurotsuchi could keep up with his slither form.

[PrinceofPeace]

Originally Posted by BMC1994

-Jiraiya using it in a enclosed area does not mean he can only use it in an enclosed area.
It has been only shown to be used in an enclosed area.
You have not given any proof that Jiryria can use it outdoors
What would the attack even look like or do? Toad mouth bind is NOT an option. how far would the stomach stretch?? It is used inside because that is the best way to catch their foe. Toad mouth bind would not have a roof and it can not extend forever. We are only going by feats
Kabuto using muki tensei in a cave does not mean it only works in a cave. Jiraiya can even make the walls close in on each other.
Muki tensei gives anything that is not alive .. life. Toad mouth bind instantly attaches to walls and the ground. If it was used outside then in theory it would make the whole area in the mouth of a toad. You are just splitting hairs and being unreasonable. Toad mouth bind is used inside to capture foes. We do not even know the effects if the jutsu were to be used outside. We know nothing about it. On the other hand bringing other things to life like boulders is not a stretch.
Its a summoning there is no summoning that only works inside.(there isnt even a jutsu which only works inside of enclosed areas)
But their are restirictions to every jutsu.
-Pulling a sword out is not cutting he barely even damaged the gums.
Kisame was still able to break free and thats that
-The Uchihax werent suprised at all. Its a different fight from pain. The last time he saw konan was idk how many years ago and she wasnt going all 'angel' back then.
thats because nonoe of them fought Kabuto before. But she was still using paper so it was not as surprising as stealing DNA and becoming a SAGE
-The page i gave was not toad mouth bind but something similiar. Jiraiya did not use toad mouth bind in that chapter.
It still will not do anything to kabuto.
-Orochimaru could have killed kabuto right thats not its not a speed feat at all.
IT still is a faster feat than what Jiryria has ever done in Base. Oro had a killing intent and Kabuto got away. Jiryria has never been able to do something that fast
-It does not matter what you or i say jiraiya can summon whether you want it or not. Read the Op.
AGAIN.... Yes Jiryria can summon but it is not IC. What good will the summonings do when manda II can take on 2-3 boss toads
-Kabuto did not want to get captured he just took advantage of the situation when it happened where does he decides he wants to get captured?.
After he saw the hand signs and knew they were not deadly he decided to let himself get captured and take advantage of the situtation. This still proves kabuto is smarter... he succeeded either way.
-He didnt dodge the second time so he is not that fast.
He dodged it the first time which is faster than anything Jiryria has done
-Dark swamp can be big enough to contain a giant snake even if he manages to shed his skin (which the snakes couldnt and if you dont belief that snakes can shed there skin you should pick up some biology)he just going to end in the swamp again.
Kabuto gets out of the swamp by
- using webs to attach to an object thus pulling him out of the swamp
- Kabuto uses earth wall to make a standstill
- Kabuto sheds his skin and gets out of the swamp
- Kabuto also gets near Jiryria so that Jiryria will not activate the swamp where Jiryria is
-You proved kabuto was faster then a scared women and could keep up with naruto(a genin not known his speed) that does not make him faster then jiraiya at all.
Kabuto also blitz Oro and dodged a susanoo arrow
............. what has jiryria done in base that was so fast???
-Where does it even say that frog songs strenght comes from the amount of vibration.Nowhere.
But it doees have sound which Kabuto can weaken by going into a liquid form. Also Kabuto has great genjutsu skillz to break free from it. Kabuto just has to release it or use another gene to break him free because he has more than 1 DNA pattern so that means more than one chakra flow
-Where does it even say that jiraiya must have a great distance to use dark swamp. Nowhere.
If Jiryria is close to Kabuto when he uses dark swamp than Jiryria will get caught in the swmp
-Ok jiraiyas jutsu are fast enough to keep up with base kisame/bee.
let me correct you
Jiryria's SUMMONINGS are fast enought to keep up with base PTS Kisame

Dark swamp would finish off Manda but slowly. Als the other boss toads would get caught in it and this Manda is way bigger than the last one so it would take more time. kabuto can get on the other bosss toads to avoid dark swamp

Even if Jiryria were to get the time to use Frog Song he could not handle Kabuto alone. I already said how Kabuto counters and attacks Jiryria.Jiryria had to run away and use clones to stall. With Kabuto's sensing ability Jiryria can not hide nor run. Jiryria can not take on Kabuto by himself

The boss toads lower body will get piereced by the steel like bones. It would take more than one giant rasengan to defeat the bones. Kabuto would be attacking Jiryria from behind while he is trying to deestroy the bones

You still have not said how Base Kabuto is slower than Base Jiryria. You have given ZERO speed feats of Jiryria.

Jiryria's boss summoning would also be sticking to the ground or at least slown down. Also Jiryria would have to touch the ground to summon and that would be silly to do when the ground is sticky.

Kabuto has shown much more intlligent feats than Jiryria or Pain

You have not proven that Jiryria is faster than Kabuto

It appears the barrier does not last forever because when the battle was over Jiryria did not notice the 4th pain from behind him,As soon as Jiryria went SM the barrier stopped

[BMC1994]

All feats are kept while in SM jiraiya can use his barriers even if he is in SM. Of couse he didnt notice it he thought the battle was over.

Where and on which page does it state that it can only be used inside and attaches to the walls. No where here is jiraiya exact description of the jutsu.

'Black magic to summon the esophagus of the giant toad of Myouki Mountain, Rock inn'

Again
Where and on which page does it state that it can only be used inside and attaches to the walls

There are no jutsu which can only be used inside. I am not the one being unreasonable.

There are limit to every jutsu but you are just making this one up. As you said summonings are space time ninjutsu. Space Time is not restricted to inside buildings otherwise minato and tobi would have a problem.

Same for dark swamp where does it says that jiraiya needs to be away to use it.nowhere. jiraiya even used it when he was near the giant snake. Jiraiya never got caught in his own dark swamp or caught his allies in dark swamp even when he was drugged so how again is a sober jiraiya gonna catch him and his own summon in his own dark swamp. Did pain look like he could move in it or even do anything?. No. Besides the fact that jiraiya can make that as large as a giant snake.

No Kisame pulled his sword out. Nothing more. Nothing less.

If oro wanted to kill kabuto he would have been dead in the time he wrapped that snake around he would easily have slit his throat.

Them not having fought kabuto before should make them even more suprised which they were not.

Kabuto never dodged an arrow in base he did it in SM. Which jiraiya also uses hence he has similiar speed. because jiraiya is in no way significantly slower then kabuto in base.

When did jiraiya even use clones?

Pain had the rinnegan and couldnt break free from. The only genjutsu kabuto ever used was pts on some fodder. The First time kabuto was caught in genjutsu he could not break out of it. When itachi clearly said that there is a way to break out of it but kabuto did not.

Summonings still are jutsu he had to make the handsigns.

He can otherwise this would be a stomp.

Wait you are comparing the guy who singlehandedly curbstomped all of konoha with the guy who lost to uchihax?

i have given like 4 speed feats you not reading is not my problem.

The sound only triggers the genjutsu. Him be able to weaken sound still doesnt stop the genjutsu because he is still affected by said sound.

Manda 2's only feat is biting an helpless island turtle. Because of the modifications he could maybe 2 because the original was doing well against bunta he hasnt displayed anything that shows he can take 3 summonings.

Nevertheless he never decided to get captured. Its a given that kabuto is smart otherwise oro would have killed him a long time ago. Its also a given that jiraiya is smart because he managed to figure out pains secret which ended up saving whats left of konoha.

Besides the fact that being a kage level ninja apperrently means nothing he is fast enough to keep up with the top tier characters(well at the time of his death) of the series.(itachi,Kisame,4tailed naruto,Hanzo) And being able to keep up with pain which could keep up with all of konoha and sage naruto. At any rate jiraiya in base is not slow and most likely faster then kabuto in base.

While base kabuto was able to blitz yamato while slithering.....and thats it.

^^ see what i am getting at.

And jiraiya can just sink the bones in a giant swamp.

[PrinceofPeace]

Originally Posted by BMC1994

All feats are kept while in SM jiraiya can use his barriers even if he is in SM. Of couse he didnt notice it he thought the battle was over.
Jiryria did not know where the Pains were when he was running away
also
Jiryria still did not sense the surprise attack at the end.
Jiryria's barrier does not last forever. It would be a constant drain of chakra. Also Jiryria did not sense all of the attacks nor knew the wherabaouts of enemy ninja. It looked like it was canceled when he went SM
Where and on which page does it state that it can only be used inside and attaches to the walls. No where here is jiraiya exact description of the jutsu.
We are just using feats correct?? Then no Dark Swamp... how would it even work outside??

'Black magic to summon the esophagus of the giant toad of Myouki Mountain, Rock inn'
HOw owuld Jiryria get Kabuto to get inside the ROck Inn??

Same for dark swamp where does it says that jiraiya needs to be away to use it.nowhere. jiraiya even used it when he was near the giant snake. Jiraiya never got caught in his own dark swamp or caught his allies in dark swamp even when he was drugged so how again is a sober jiraiya gonna catch him and his own summon in his own dark swamp. Did pain look like he could move in it or even do anything?. No. Besides the fact that jiraiya can make that as large as a giant snake.
If Jiryria got caught in dark swamp he would also sink... thats all i am getting at. So he would need space inbetween his opponent to do it
Jiryria was ontop of the snakes so he was not in danger of the swamp
Jiryria and comrades were always safely away from the swamp to get caught in it
The path of pain was not supposed to move cuz he was helping the animal path

No Kisame pulled his sword out. Nothing more. Nothing less.
HE pulled his sword out which he broke free from the stomach. So it can be damaged/torn.

If oro wanted to kill kabuto he would have been dead in the time he wrapped that snake around he would easily have slit his throat.
Oro had the intent to kill to make it convincing
ALSO
When has Base Jiryria ever blitz...... NEVER
So Kabuto is faster

Them not having fought kabuto before should make them even more suprised which they were not.
You can not be surprised if you are fighting someone for the first time and if you have lil knowledge on them.... the Uchiha's were shocked though for kabuto to not only collect DNA but to have gained SM powers as well... most the DNA part

Kabuto never dodged an arrow in base he did it in SM. Which jiraiya also uses hence he has similiar speed. because jiraiya is in no way significantly slower then kabuto in base.
I never said Kabuto dodged an arrow in base.... OF COURSE he dodged it in SM
Kabuto in base is faster than Jiryria so if they both went in SM Kabuto would be faster
There is nooo proof that Jiryria can dodge a susanoo arrow.... he could not even dodge an attack from the 4th pain

When did jiraiya even use clones?
to use the fire style jutsu to distract the pains
chap. 378 pg 13

Pain had the rinnegan and couldnt break free from. The only genjutsu kabuto ever used was pts on some fodder. The First time kabuto was caught in genjutsu he could not break out of it. When itachi clearly said that there is a way to break out of it but kabuto did not.
Having the Rinnegan does not have anything to do with genjutsu.
Kabuto caught more th

Summonings still are jutsu he had to make the handsigns.

He can otherwise this would be a stomp.
yes cuz kabuto is that gud

Wait you are comparing the guy who singlehandedly curbstomped all of konoha with the guy who lost to uchihax?
Uchiha's were holding back
Uchihas would stomp Pain
Jiryria lost to 4 pains


i have given like 4 speed feats you not reading is not my problem.
they do not compare nor or better than with dodging a susanoo arrow
you gave no base Jiryria speed feats

The sound only triggers the genjutsu. Him be able to weaken sound still doesnt stop the genjutsu because he is still affected by said sound.
turning into water and being great at genjutsu would render the attack useless

Manda 2's only feat is biting an helpless island turtle. Because of the modifications he could maybe 2 because the original was doing well against bunta he hasnt displayed anything that shows he can take 3 summonings.
Thanks for finally agreeing. Manda II is overall better than Manda.. smarter, stronger , faster, e.t.c. Kabuto said it himself. Kabuto can go on the last boss toad with Jiryria so the toad will not be an issue. Manda II can at least distract/occupy them

Nevertheless he never decided to get captured. Its a given that kabuto is smart otherwise oro would have killed him a long time ago. Its also a given that jiraiya is smart because he managed to figure out pains secret which ended up saving whats left of konoha.
Kabuto has shown WAY more intlligent feats than Jiryria
- figuring out his body movements from Tsunades attack
-being a spy
-being a medical ninja
-reading his opponents movements
kabuto is way smarter than Jiryria

Which ever way you put it Kabuto used the situations to his advantage and captured yamato. Kabuto reconginized the hand seals and knew they were not lethal. Kabuto got past the other ninja and captured Yamato.


Besides the fact that being a kage level ninja apperrently means nothing he is fast enough to keep up with the top tier characters(well at the time of his death) of the series.(itachi,Kisame,4tailed naruto,Hanzo) And being able to keep up with pain which could keep up with all of konoha and sage naruto. At any rate jiraiya in base is not slow and most likely faster then kabuto in base.

hanzo battle: he had helped and we do not know enough about that fight
4tail Naruto battle: we know lil to nothing about that battle
Itachi/Kisame battle: Jiryria was not keeping up with them!!!!!!! He just used summonings which are space-time ninjutus WHICH are the fastes jutsu/ Jiryria is NOT FAST. Anyone can summon quickly

While base kabuto was able to blitz yamato while slithering.....and thats it.
Kabuto also blitz Oro
and
Kabuto dodged a susanoo arrow

^^ see what i am getting at.
you are ignorring my post
And jiraiya can just sink the bones in a giant swamp
the bones could grow
also the bones would have at least hit Jiryria/summoning before they would sink
.

Kabuto is faster than Jiryria
Manda II can take on at least 2 summonings.
what can a boss summoning do when both Jiryria and Kabuto are on it
How does Jiryria get prep for Frog song.... the effects would barely work
How would TOad mouth bind work in an open area.... we are only using feats!! I have not brought up all of teh sound four's jutsu recently
dark swamp is one of the only good attacks and jiryria has not shown to use it for the killl it is not OOC but summoning 3 boss toads are

[BMC1994]

Does not matter if he cancelled in SM because he keeps all his feats from base.

So you are saying dark swamp would not work outside while the first time he used it was clearly outside. ok.

On the genjutsu kabutos talent isnt great enough to effortlessly break out of high end genjutsu. Example: Izanami.

Turning into water doesnt make you immune to genjutsu at all. Turning liquid also does not make you immune to sound. Hence frog song will still affect him.

What you are getting at is wrong because jiraiya has always used the dark swamp when he was close to his target and never sunk in his own swamp.

correction jiraiya lost to 6 pains. While killing 3 with genjutsu and 1 with a rasengan. figuring out his secret and giving it to konoha. We dont know if the uchihas would stomp pain.

everyone including a pts naruto and sasuke could read movements.
Being a kage level ninja.
Being a writer with a succesfull novel series.
Being naruto/minato/nagato's teacher 3 of the most powerfull ninjas in the series.
Figuring out pains secret <-this alone put him way above anything kabuto has done.

No there is not anything that indicates kabuto recognized anything.
Kabuto got captured. He used it to his advantage. Thats what happened. There is no recognizing of any kind in the panels.

I did give base jiraiya speed feats look back a couple of posts.

Escaping from someone that doesnt want to kill is not a speed feat.

Hanzo: Fair enough he still could keep up with oro and tsunade.
4tails: We do know how fast 4tails is and how fast you must be to fight him. Thats why jiraiya is atleast that speed.
Itachi/Kisame: not everyone can summon fast enough to intercept a sword strike especially one from kisame. Where does it say space time ninjutsu are the fastest jutsu?
Jiraiya still was fast enough with his handseals to make it before naruto was dead.

gaaras was able to use his cloud to carry him AND lee before they were hit.
Im sure jiraiya can use dark swamp before the bones hit him.

Kabuto is not as fast as you think:

naruto chapter 579 itachi says that the snakes can sense their existance.
Sasuke replys with that snakes can sense things through temperature or smell.

In the same chapter kabuto said that he dodged the arrow because of his enhanced perception(SM grants him enhanced snake like abilities) not because of sheer speed. If he had enough sheer speed to dodge it he would have dodged it a second time.

In 580 kabuto dodges sasuke chidori spear and says: 'such a makeshift duo cannot win against my sensing abilities. He again dodged something and proceeds to brag about his sensing abilties not his speed.


So you cant be suprised when you fight a person for the first time and you dont have any knowledge on their fighting style......

Since you mentioned it jiraiya can occupy kabuto with clones.

Why would it only work inside while that never has been claimed.
According to you its because we have only seen it used inside right?
Kabuto white rage/Muki Tensei and liquification also only have been seen in a cave.
So according to your logic they would only work inside the cave because we have never seen them outside of the cave.

^see how that logic (doesnt) work(s).

[PrinceofPeace]

Originally Posted by BMC1994

Does not matter if he cancelled in SM because he keeps all his feats from base.
The barrier was not shown when he went into SM. It dissapeared so it was cancelled.

So you are saying dark swamp would not work outside while the first time he used it was clearly outside. ok.
I am saying toad mouth bind would not work outside

On the genjutsu kabutos talent isnt great enough to effortlessly break out of high end genjutsu. Example: Izanami.
izanami >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> any other genjutsu

Turning into water doesnt make you immune to genjutsu at all. Turning liquid also does not make you immune to sound. Hence frog song will still affect him.

I did not say turning into water makes you immune to genjutsu. Just like with white rage Kabuto turns into a liquid state for the vibrations and the sound to be less effective. SInce this is and audio/ sound based genjutsu then the genjutsu willl be less efective. So now Kabuto would also just release it to make the jutsu useless

What you are getting at is wrong because jiraiya has always used the dark swamp when he was close to his target and never sunk in his own swamp.
Shed skin and earth wall is how Kabuto overcomes dark swamp

correction jiraiya lost to 6 pains. While killing 3 with genjutsu and 1 with a rasengan. figuring out his secret and giving it to konoha. We dont know if the uchihas would stomp pain.

The paths of pain were holding back so it was basiccaly 4 pains. You stilll have not proved that Jiryria is smarter nor faster

everyone including a pts naruto and sasuke could read movements. Not as well as Kabuto
Being a kage level ninja.-Kabuto is higher than kage level
Being a writer with a succesfull novel series. what does that have to do with anything... and it was not very successful only about 5 ppl read them
Being naruto/minato/nagato's teacher 3 of the most powerfull ninjas in the series. so what if he is a good teacher? ALl of these ninja were talented from the start anyways.
Figuring out pains secret <-this alone put him way above anything kabuto has done.
this is his main and only intelligent feat. Jiryria also had hints like know the children and recognizing the guy he faced in battle so it was not that major. I already listed Kabuto's multiple intelligent feats. What are Jiryria's battle smart feats?

No there is not anything that indicates kabuto recognized anything.
Kabuto got captured. He used it to his advantage. Thats what happened. There is no recognizing of any kind in the panels.
chapter 514 pg12

I did give base jiraiya speed feats look back a couple of posts.
but which one beats kabuto blitzing away from Oro's snakes??? nothing and do you know why?? because Jiryria never blitzed in base

Escaping from someone that doesnt want to kill is not a speed feat.
It is still faster than anything Jiryria has done in base

Hanzo: Fair enough he still could keep up with oro and tsunade.
How do you get that??? It is not a fight that shows Jiryria skillz. We are only using feats correct. How does this show anything about Jiryria when he was younger ?? The battle was barely covered in the manga

4tails: We do know how fast 4tails is and how fast you must be to fight him. Thats why jiraiya is atleast that speed.
We do not know anything about the battle itself so please stop brining it up
Itachi/Kisame: not everyone can summon fast enough to intercept a sword strike especially one from kisame. Where does it say space time ninjutsu are the fastest jutsu?
This is not a speed feat. This just shows Jiryria is good/quick at using hand signs. This is also PTS Kismae and Kisame was not going all out. What is faster than a time-space ninjutus?? If you do not think it is the fastest ninjutu then just tallk to Minato


Jiraiya still was fast enough with his handseals to make it before naruto was dead.
This is not a speed feat. This just shows Jiryria is good/quick at using hand signs

gaaras was able to use his cloud to carry him AND lee before they were hit.
And Garra/lee still would have DIED if it was not for Kimi's illness
Im sure jiraiya can use dark swamp before the bones hit him.
the bones would continue to grow and the bones would hit the frogs. If Jiryria used the swamp than he would have trapped his frogs

Kabuto is not as fast as you think:
DOes not matter cuz he is still faster than Jiryria

naruto chapter 579 itachi says that the snakes can sense their existance.
Sasuke replys with that snakes can sense things through temperature or smell.
Kabuto also has better sensing feats than Jiryria... thanks for brining that up for me

In the same chapter kabuto said that he dodged the arrow because of his enhanced perception(SM grants him enhanced snake like abilities) not because of sheer speed. If he had enough sheer speed to dodge it he would have dodged it a second time.
Either way Kabuto dodged it and that puts him way above anything SM Jiryria has done. He can just quickly make rasengans. Also pain was not surprised when he blitzed one of the other paths so he is not that fast

In 580 kabuto dodges sasuke chidori spear and says: 'such a makeshift duo cannot win against my sensing abilities. He again dodged something and proceeds to brag about his sensing abilties not his speed.

Either way he dodged it and this puts him higher than Jiryria. This only proves Jiryria would have even a harder time winning.


So you cant be suprised when you fight a person for the first time and you dont have any knowledge on their fighting style......
Jiryria encountered Kabuto's abilities before and that Kabuto and current Kabuto would shock just about anyone

Since you mentioned it jiraiya can occupy kabuto with clones.
Kabuto can sense who the real one is
Kabuto can use Sakon/Ukon genes to counter the other one

Why would it only work inside while that never has been claimed.
According to you its because we have only seen it used inside right?
Kabuto white rage/Muki Tensei and liquification also only have been seen in a cave.
But we have seen liquification used by Sugietsu outside!!!!
Muki Tensi gives life to objects
You are taking what I said way out of context.

You stilll did not say how Toad mouth bind would work outside. It would just be like dark swamp but toad mouth bind has covered the whole are inside and outside is tooo big for the toad mouth bind to cover a large area outside
So according to your logic they would only work inside the cave because we have never seen them outside of the cave.
That is not what I mean and you KNOW it.
We have seen other characters use it outside
How would your attack even work outside?

^see how that logic (doesnt) work(s).

You are not answering my questions

also you have not reffered to my chapters

THanks for brining up Kabuto's great sensing abilities which make his reaction time and speed remarkable

How is Jiryria smarter/faster than Kabuto

Please stomp brining up fights that we barely have knowledge on