balance ideas for storm 3

[RikoudoSageNaruto]

firstly i have to say that the way that cc2 tried to balance generations is piss poor. they slapped a cancel system and subbar on it and expected everything to be balanced. they need to build storm 3 from the ground up and make the characters to fit perfectly with the new system. by default this balance tip should be in storm 3. its to be expected.

anyway here are some ideas to help ensure balance in storm 3.

1. more subs: this is a good step forward. as seen in the first storm 3 scan cc2 is planning on giving players 5 subbars instead of 4.

2. ninja move cancels: these need to be more effective. there is a delay if you press the attack button quickly. when you use the ninja move cancel, you should be able to ninja move at any time during a combo no matter how many times you mashed circle before. basically if you press circle 6 times and the character has done three hits, you should be able to do a ninja move cancel and it would erase the command for the next three hits. what happens now is you press the attack button six time, then input the commands for the ninja move cancel on the third hit but the character does the ninja move cancel after the 6th hit.

3. defensive options: cc2 should introduce a new cancel. it should be a guard cancel. basically if you are in the middle of a combo, you just press the guard button and your character would instantly stop the combo and guard.

4. supports: they are way to annoying. it is way to hard to hit the person. guard supports are especially annoying. they interrupt all your chakra dashes. the time they come out is fixed. it makes no sense if you chakra dash when you are 1 foot away from someone then the dash gets negated. this is especially annoying if they have a puppet master as a guard support. it would make sense if there was a time limit on when they came out. like if someone dashes, it would take about 1.5 seconds for them to come out.

5. puppet masters: basically they are annoying as hell. you cant chakra dash cancel them because their puppet attacks instantly. when a puppet master subs, their puppet shouldnt be brought along wih them. cc2 needs to change pts kankuro and sasori. their tilt is way too spammable. its retarded.

6. guard: the guard needs to be stronger. attacks should do alot less damage to your guard. the amount of chakra dashes it takes to break you airguard and groundguard should be the same. it should take 4 chakra dashes to break your guard like now but just reduce the amount of damage attacks do to your guard

[pathbeyondthedark]

1. The whole sub system is flawed. Being able to sub almost anytime promotes spamming and reckless play. It needs to be built again from the ground up, maybe include a sub attack counter (similar to DBZ: B3) so that you can't punish with a jutsu or grab from behind or go back to Storm 2's system, just taking a lot more chakra. Either way, you shouldn't be able to sub while attacking.

2. Completely agree with you here. I'd go a step further and say they should eliminate c.dash cancels in favor of a more effective ninja move cancel system.

3. I see what you're getting at. This could be a double edged sword however. On one hand, combos will be even safer, but on the other everything else might be moot. This is especially true if the system goes back to sub only while standing/moving. Plus it negates the whole reason for ninja move cancels like c.dash cancels do in Generations.

4-1. This goes back to the sub system. The substitutions need to have invincibility frames when it comes to supports. So here's how it'd work: If you sub a main (playable) character you do a sub counter attack, but no i.frames so if you anticipate it you can NMC and punish your opponent for subbing. But when caught/hit by support there should be i.frames after subbing. Not sure if that is feasible, but it's the ideal way imo.

4-2. Guard supports are a huge pain. I'm not saying they should be eliminated altogether, but something should be done. Although, again, a Storm 2 like system where you can sub during a c.dash if they attempt to punish then use that sub counter would also eliminate this issue.

5. They did nerf puppets with the new system, I'll give them that. But really, other then PTS Kankuro, it takes skill in Gen to be good with them (the puppets get knocked down so easily.) So it's a difficult thing to fix. On one hand a good puppet user is near invincible, on the other an average one is complete garbage. There's no in-between.

6. Yes, Yes, and YES. Attacks should do less. Go further and eliminate jump guard all together though. Leave jumping and ninja moving for dodging, that is the reason for 3D for goodness sake, add some skill to your camping methods for crying outloud. And again, i.frames during substitution of a support will eliminate the c.dash spam > guard break when you get stuck in Hidan, Kimi, etc.

7. As a wise old man once (actually many times) said to Jackie Chan, "one more thing," nerf the CORRECT characters if any of them are returning. They nerfed CTS/Kirin Sasuke for no reason when all other fireball jutsu are just as fast as before, then left Kiba and his broken combos/Akamaru stun completely intact.

8. Okay, so two more things, sue me. CC2, TEST YOUR NEW CHARACTERS. I find it hard to believe you didn't see MM being as OP as he is. So please stop trolling, test your game, and quit making popular characters uber on purpose.

[RikoudoSageNaruto]

Originally Posted by pathbeyondthedark

1. The whole sub system is flawed. Being able to sub almost anytime promotes spamming and reckless play. It needs to be built again from the ground up, maybe include a sub attack counter (similar to DBZ: B3) so that you can't punish with a jutsu or grab from behind or go back to Storm 2's system, just taking a lot more chakra. Either way, you shouldn't be able to sub while attacking.

2. Completely agree with you here. I'd go a step further and say they should eliminate c.dash cancels in favor of a more effective ninja move cancel system.

3. I see what you're getting at. This could be a double edged sword however. On one hand, combos will be even safer, but on the other everything else might be moot. This is especially true if the system goes back to sub only while standing/moving. Plus it negates the whole reason for ninja move cancels like c.dash cancels do in Generations.

4-1. This goes back to the sub system. The substitutions need to have invincibility frames when it comes to supports. So here's how it'd work: If you sub a main (playable) character you do a sub counter attack, but no i.frames so if you anticipate it you can NMC and punish your opponent for subbing. But when caught/hit by support there should be i.frames after subbing. Not sure if that is feasible, but it's the ideal way imo.

4-2. Guard supports are a huge pain. I'm not saying they should be eliminated altogether, but something should be done. Although, again, a Storm 2 like system where you can sub during a c.dash if they attempt to punish then use that sub counter would also eliminate this issue.

5. They did nerf puppets with the new system, I'll give them that. But really, other then PTS Kankuro, it takes skill in Gen to be good with them (the puppets get knocked down so easily.) So it's a difficult thing to fix. On one hand a good puppet user is near invincible, on the other an average one is complete garbage. There's no in-between.

6. Yes, Yes, and YES. Attacks should do less. Go further and eliminate jump guard all together though. Leave jumping and ninja moving for dodging, that is the reason for 3D for goodness sake, add some skill to your camping methods for crying outloud. And again, i.frames during substitution of a support will eliminate the c.dash spam > guard break when you get stuck in Hidan, Kimi, etc.

7. As a wise old man once (actually many times) said to Jackie Chan, "one more thing," nerf the CORRECT characters if any of them are returning. They nerfed CTS/Kirin Sasuke for no reason when all other fireball jutsu are just as fast as before, then left Kiba and his broken combos/Akamaru stun completely intact.

8. Okay, so two more things, sue me. CC2, TEST YOUR NEW CHARACTERS. I find it hard to believe you didn't see MM being as OP as he is. So please stop trolling, test your game, and quit making popular characters uber on purpose.

broken characters like ts and pts kiba fall under the first paragraph for cc2 needing to build the game from thhe ground up and making the characters to fit with the new system. ts kibas double chakra dash with akamaru breaks your guard instantly and his jutsu is too spammable and pts kibas ultimate is extremely broken.

it makes no sense to sub in the same attack over and over. if someone hits you then you should sub directly behind them, no matter the circumstances. for ranged jutsus like danzos wind attack and susano sasukes amaterasu, you should sub directly in front of the attack if you decide to sub it. you shouldnt be stuck in it and have to waste more subs.

list of characters that need to be nerfed:

masked man(nuff said)
onoki(jutsu)
susano sasuke(jutsu)
kcm naruto(ultimate)
pts lee(his combos need nerfing as crazy as it sounds)
pts neji(same reason as lee but not to the same extent)
itachi(annoying tilt spam)
sasori(tilt spam)
pts kankuro(tilt spsam)
hidan(his jutsu needs to be changed. hes only a problem as a support)
pts gaara from sasuke retrieval arc(sand shower comes out to fast)
pts tenten(ovepowered jutsu with too much tracking. easily spammable)
ts kiba(broken mechanics with dog. double chakra dash. spammable gatsuuga)
pts kiba(broken ultimate)
characters that can teleport in awakening because they dont have to use subs to avoid attack while you do giving them an unfair advantage in close combat.(guy, raikage for example)

that is just off the top of my head. there are more things i can list.

[pathbeyondthedark]

Originally Posted by RikoudoSageNaruto

it makes no sense to sub in the same attack over and over. if someone hits you then you should sub directly behind them, no matter the circumstances. for ranged jutsus like danzos wind attack and susano sasukes amaterasu, you should sub directly in front of the attack if you decide to sub it. you shouldnt be stuck in it and have to waste more subs.

list of characters that need to be nerfed:

masked man(nuff said)
onoki(jutsu)
susano sasuke(jutsu)
kcm naruto(ultimate)
pts lee(his combos need nerfing as crazy as it sounds)
pts neji(same reason as lee but not to the same extent)
itachi(annoying tilt spam)
sasori(tilt spam)
pts kankuro(tilt spsam)
hidan(his jutsu needs to be changed. hes only a problem as a support)
pts gaara from sasuke retrieval arc(sand shower comes out to fast)
pts tenten(ovepowered jutsu with too much tracking. easily spammable)
ts kiba(broken mechanics with dog. double chakra dash. spammable gatsuuga)
pts kiba(broken ultimate)
characters that can teleport in awakening because they dont have to use subs to avoid attack while you do giving them an unfair advantage in close combat.(guy, raikage for example)

Thus the i.frames, no need for multiple subs with supports. And yeah, I forgot about ranged jutsu, but most are 1 sub anyway. Just nerf the characters that don't to have a single hitbox rather then multiple.

And the sub counter (with only slight damage) would eliminate being hit from behind by jutsu or grabs. That's my ideal scenario for subs, as I played DBZ: B3 and the teleportation mechanic, plus the game as a whole, was surprisingly balanced (some OP characters though).

Umm... teleport characters are TERRIBLE. All you have to do is circle around in place, do a 360, and they can't catch you without normal air dashing which is VERY unsafe to begin with.

Sasuke is fine. Maybe nerf the range a bit and have it be a sub behind him type of thing.

KCM Naruto Ult: just make it so you sub behind.

PTS Neji is average at best, and without c.dash cancels lee shouldn't be much of an issue.

They already nerfed Itachi, he has no startup i.frames, his tilt is good but not broken.

Already mentioned Kiba.

PTS Gaara: HECK YEAH.

PTS Kiba: Indeed, though if they do as I said you'll be able to sub while c.dashing, then hit him from behind as he can't counter w/o being able to sub during attacks.

Hidan: Hidan is overrated. With the i.frame idea he'll be average at best.

Ohnoki: Make it a single hitbox that you sub completely behind.

PTS Tenten: Nerf the tracking/guard damage on her jutsu, guard damage on her ult, fix her glitched air combo.

MM: Get rid of the tag glitch/lingering tags, get rid of the startup i.frames. Same goes for the i.frames on his ult. Since you won't be able to sub during an attack in my ideal Storm game, he'll be vulnerable to a quick punish if blocked.

Regardless, I doubt PTS characters will be in the game, possibly some of the TS ones also being thrown out. And on the topic of starting from scratch, that would take years to build an expansive story mode and 90+ characters all over again.

[Evert131]

I think they should ditch the sub system entirely and go back to the system in storm 2, where substituting actually required skill, which was the main difference between pros and noobs.

I agree that the puppeteers need some nerfing, although i main Sasori, i find it annoying that some people just don't want to fight me, make a different tilt, maybe one with instant poison, that skips the slash. And pts kankuro should get a tilt like ts kankuro. And you definitely have never played as puppeteers if you think that the puppet should not sub with them, they'd be extremely weak if that was so, imagine subbing as Naruto and you won't be able to attack for like 3 seconds after subbing, sorry to say this, but that's retarded. And they should make it that puppets can c.dash through projectiles so i actually stand a chance against deidara spammers like everyone else.

[Housh]

Originally Posted by Evert131

I think they should ditch the sub system entirely and go back to the system in storm 2, where substituting actually required skill, which was the main difference between pros and noobs.

I agree that the puppeteers need some nerfing, although i main Sasori, i find it annoying that some people just don't want to fight me, make a different tilt, maybe one with instant poison, that skips the slash. And pts kankuro should get a tilt like ts kankuro. And you definitely have never played as puppeteers if you think that the puppet should not sub with them, they'd be extremely weak if that was so, imagine subbing as Naruto and you won't be able to attack for like 3 seconds after subbing, sorry to say this, but that's retarded. And they should make it that puppets can c.dash through projectiles so i actually stand a chance against deidara spammers like everyone else.

Is that a joke?

[pathbeyondthedark]

Originally Posted by Housh

Is that a joke?

Somewhat. At least it wasn't as easy as in Gen.

The sub system needs to be changed. No more of this "spam because I can sub at anytime anyway" bull. You should be able to punish recklessness, if not then there really is no skill and it comes down to luck whether your attacks will connect or not.

[Housh]

Originally Posted by pathbeyondthedark

Somewhat. At least it wasn't as easy as in Gen.

The sub system needs to be changed. No more of this "spam because I can sub at anytime anyway" bull. You should be able to punish recklessness, if not then there really is no skill and it comes down to luck whether your attacks will connect or not.

Storms 2's system took less skill. You actually have to use strategy in this one. Do you want to go back to somebody pounding their trigger with Naruto just to Rasengan when you attack?

Id literally play Hokages and above that would literally do only that

[Housh]

Originally Posted by RikoudoSageNaruto

firstly i have to say that the way that cc2 tried to balance generations is piss poor. they slapped a cancel system and subbar on it and expected everything to be balanced. they need to build storm 3 from the ground up and make the characters to fit perfectly with the new system. by default this balance tip should be in storm 3. its to be expected.

anyway here are some ideas to help ensure balance in storm 3.

1. more subs: this is a good step forward. as seen in the first storm 3 scan cc2 is planning on giving players 5 subbars instead of 4.

2. ninja move cancels: these need to be more effective. there is a delay if you press the attack button quickly. when you use the ninja move cancel, you should be able to ninja move at any time during a combo no matter how many times you mashed circle before. basically if you press circle 6 times and the character has done three hits, you should be able to do a ninja move cancel and it would erase the command for the next three hits. what happens now is you press the attack button six time, then input the commands for the ninja move cancel on the third hit but the character does the ninja move cancel after the 6th hit.

3. defensive options: cc2 should introduce a new cancel. it should be a guard cancel. basically if you are in the middle of a combo, you just press the guard button and your character would instantly stop the combo and guard.

4. supports: they are way to annoying. it is way to hard to hit the person. guard supports are especially annoying. they interrupt all your chakra dashes. the time they come out is fixed. it makes no sense if you chakra dash when you are 1 foot away from someone then the dash gets negated. this is especially annoying if they have a puppet master as a guard support. it would make sense if there was a time limit on when they came out. like if someone dashes, it would take about 1.5 seconds for them to come out.

5. puppet masters: basically they are annoying as hell. you cant chakra dash cancel them because their puppet attacks instantly. when a puppet master subs, their puppet shouldnt be brought along wih them. cc2 needs to change pts kankuro and sasori. their tilt is way too spammable. its retarded.

6. guard: the guard needs to be stronger. attacks should do alot less damage to your guard. the amount of chakra dashes it takes to break you airguard and groundguard should be the same. it should take 4 chakra dashes to break your guard like now but just reduce the amount of damage attacks do to your guard

1. More subs is good and as you can see Storm 3 is doing it.

2. Another good one

3. Guard cancel? Hmm if they do that your guard should get broken easier than usual. Because I could see people abusing that by attacking, guard, attacking, guard. Or if you do it a counter attack should be instant.

4. Guard support is a good idea. What would be the use making it take almost 2 seconds to come out? You might as well takeout support.
Support is teh fine the way it is....you just gotta practice dodgeing and anticipating support.

5. Thered be no use in using puppets if their puppets didnt go with them when they sub...thatd be stupid. But one ting they can do is if ou sub a puppet you should never reappear back in the puppets grasp thats retarded.

6. imo guard is fine. f it were any stronger itd be stupid

[Shikamaru Nara]

Originally Posted by Housh

Storms 2's system took less skill. You actually have to use strategy in this one. Do you want to go back to somebody pounding their trigger with Naruto just to Rasengan when you attack?

Id literally play Hokages and above that would literally do only that

Sounds good to me.
from what I hear it sucks now.

[Housh]

Originally Posted by Shikamaru Nara

Sounds good to me.
from what I hear it sucks now.

The only people saying this sub system sucks are the people that suck at this one because it takes strategy now.

There is no way a serious player that played both Storm 2 and Storm 3 can say Storm 2's system was better.

People would literally sit in one spot pounding their trigger wait for you to attack and rasengan/Chidori/grab you, ect.

Im down for a system that doesnt have a set number of subs but theres no way someone should be able to sit there and pound away....Like if you do it more than 5 imes in a row you should get stunned or somethhig

[pathbeyondthedark]

Originally Posted by Housh

The only people saying this sub system sucks are the people that suck at this one because it takes strategy now.

There is no way a serious player that played both Storm 2 and Storm 3 can say Storm 2's system was better.

People would literally sit in one spot pounding their trigger wait for you to attack and rasengan/Chidori/grab you, ect.

Im down for a system that doesnt have a set number of subs but theres no way someone should be able to sit there and pound away....Like if you do it more than 5 imes in a row you should get stunned or somethhig

Except it was. If you were good enough you could get around the guard spamming (air combos were safe, tilts were difficult to sub, timing your melee presses). You can't tell me timing your melee presses doesn't take skill. If you could time it down to a fraction of a second (and I know people who could) you'd never be punished.

How is Gen skill? Gen is spam randomly and sub if you try to get punished, or camp behind your guard support, or MM... or MM (yeah, he's so broken he has to be mentioned twice).

Tell me where the skill is? Cause I assure you I'll run circles around you by just standing in place most of the match. I just have to let my supports do the work for me cause multiple subs or guard break is too OP.

Do you need any more reasons why Gen is a skilless, casual fan service? How about the half *** of the PTS characters, not adjusting their speeds and jutsu? Or the glitches (such as cancel c.dash leaving you in place sometimes) or button lock combos (combos where even if you sub you can't move, a few of the PTS characters have this because they failed to adjust them).

Character balance anyone? I think not. Other then maybe Sasori, there was never such a gap between OP and average characters in Storm 2.

Storm 2 wasn't perfect, it was broken as heck, but it wasn't a rock, paper, scissor match like Gen is.

[BMC1994]

How about a jutsu limiter similiar to a sub bar so that awakenings with overpowered jutsu like danzo and Masked man cant just stand there and spam jutsu but actually have to use combos and tilts?

[Uchiha Sora]

@Shika Most people agree that this game sucks, but its a huge step up from Storm 2.
This game is actually playable. Combos can actually be used. Storm 2 was way too noob friendly.


Why would you strengthen guards? lol Guard jumping is cheap so they balanced it out by weakening the guard in the air.

[Ultimate combatant]

Originally Posted by pathbeyondthedark

Okay, so two more things, sue me. CC2, TEST YOUR NEW CHARACTERS. I find it hard to believe you didn't see MM being as OP as he is. So please stop trolling, test your game, and quit making popular characters uber on purpose.

Masked man is one of the strongest characters in the anime. So, he is supposed to be powerful.

It would be like adding in Madara who would easily be defeated by Ino. What would be the point of including him, if he was not strong?!!

[Hassu94]

They just should add more jutsus (they forgot a lot of them), summonings, and controls (a fighting game should be more various and have more controls).
Also more supports and a bigger number of playable characters (every single character appeared in the manga )

[dynamic_entry_specialist]

What is I.frame?

[Uchiha Sora]

^iFrames=Invincibility Frames.

Frames of the move/attack your using that render you invincible.

Example: In Storm 2, after you subbed out you were invincible for a short period of time.

Or in SSB after you respawn you are invincible for about 3-5 seconds.

[Housh]

Generations system is good.

I may not even buy Storm 3 if they put back that crap pound at it sub system.

[Ablaze15]

Originally Posted by Housh

Storms 2's system took less skill. You actually have to use strategy in this one. Do you want to go back to somebody pounding their trigger with Naruto just to Rasengan when you attack?

Id literally play Hokages and above that would literally do only that

Strategy? ahahahaha don't make me laugh please, I could just use a character like pts neji who is fast as hell, keep combo canceling and killing the other guy's subs. Or I could use Onoki and use his jutsu which btw requires you to sub 3 and, OH RIGHT, You get hit even if you sub, which completely defeats the purpose but that's another story , You can use Masked Man's jutsu which ALSO requires you to pound on your trigger because that jutsu has a 1/10 sub chance. Tenten's jutsu can't be subbed. PTS Tenten's jutsu can't be subbed cause when you sub you still get hit, you sub Pain's Shinra Tensei and you get hit twice, You sub Kiba's Gatsuuga and the stupid dog hits you too. I could do this all day. You still think you need to use strategy in this game? please...

They can keep the sub bar, just 1: make it have more subs, 2: add Iframes again and 3: When your subs are coming back, don't stop it just cause you sub, I shouldn't have to take damage because the subs take 1 second each to get back.