Suigetsu vs. Itachi

[Uchiha Sora]

They're 50m apart here. Suigetsu and Sasuke were like 10m. Sasuke could've easily reacted to that. That's what suigetsu implied when he said Sasuke was extremely strong

Its not gonna work on Itachi. If that speed wouldn't work on Darui or Bee then how is it working on Itachi from a longer distance. Not to mention that's suigetsu without his heavy sword.

While charging at Itachi, suigetsu gets genjutsu'd like naruto did. Or magic finger. Ooooor Suigetsu gets close and finds that Itachi is an exploding clone. Or once he gets to Itachi he turns into crows and finds he's been genjutsu'd from the start. That's just how Itachi does things.

[megabbaut]

Originally Posted by TRcommander

The later does matter......when Suigetsu attacked B, he was easily countered. When Itachi attacked B, he made a crow clone so quickly B didn't even notice and thought he had captured the real one.



The fact that he was able to dodge attacks from two fast characters at the same time says a lot, even if it was just a short run. And I don't believe Suigetsu has done anything to suggest that he's strong against genjutsu so it really doesn't have to do much. All Itachi needs is enough time to get in a single attack, which shouldn't be too difficult considering the speed with which he can use ninja stars.



That's the point, the chakra is still visible so all he has to do is avoid it.



Yeah because Suigetsu has such great feats with water bullets......oh wait a second.......he's never even shot one off before. And clearly it's going to take Itachi forever to simply pint his finger at Suigetsu.



Not to mention the fact that Suigetsu was already in water form when he did that. In the time it takes for him to even activate hydrification mode, Itachi simply points his finger.

He was easily countered because Bee used lightning, which is Suigetsu's weakness. Which Itachi doesn't use.

Suigetsu was able to intercept attacks from two of the fastest shinobi in the manga, and that says a lot. Ninja stars (aka shuriken) don't do any damage to Suigetsu. He's intangible, remember?

How does he avoid it when he moves very slow in Susanoo?

He was about to use one against Sasuke. And it's speed has already been demonstrated when Onoki failed to react to it. And since he's behind Itachi and all, it'll be hard to activate genjutsu and point his finger to cast it on Suigetsu since he has to dodge his sword.

He wasn't in water form. When he did enter water form, he completely disappeared and reappeared behind Sasuke.

Originally Posted by Uchiha_Sora

They're 50m apart here. Suigetsu and Sasuke were like 10m. Sasuke could've easily reacted to that. That's what suigetsu implied when he said Sasuke was extremely strong

Its not gonna work on Itachi. If that speed wouldn't work on Darui or Bee then how is it working on Itachi from a longer distance. Not to mention that's suigetsu without his heavy sword.

While charging at Itachi, suigetsu gets genjutsu'd like naruto did. Or magic finger. Ooooor Suigetsu gets close and finds that Itachi is an exploding clone. Or once he gets to Itachi he turns into crows and finds he's been genjutsu'd from the start. That's just how Itachi does things.

It did work on Bee. That's how he intercepted his attack. Same with the Raikage. WITH HIS LIGHTNING CLOAK ON. And the distance doesn't matter being that he disappeared into the ground and reappeared on the ground behind Sasuke, instead of just running that distance. And with his heavy sword, he's cutting off Itachi's head.

He's not charging. He's doing what was stated above. Not to mention, Naruto is dumb so he probably did look into his eyes and forgot not to. Plus, since when does in a BG debate involving Itachi, he's replaced with an explosion clone without specification from the OP? And crows can be taken out with water bullets anyway.

[TRcommander]

Originally Posted by megabbaut

He was easily countered because Bee used lightning, which is Suigetsu's weakness. Which Itachi doesn't use.

Not the part I was talking about. Very beginning of the battle; Suigetsu rushes B, and B waits until Suigetu is literally right up in his face before he even bothers to unfold his arms to counter.

Suigetsu was able to intercept attacks from two of the fastest shinobi in the manga, and that says a lot.

Except the part where that speed is completely unquantifiable because we have no idea how far away he was when he began moving to block the attacks.

Ninja stars (aka shuriken) don't do any damage to Suigetsu. He's intangible, remember?

Suigetsu doesn't start in hydrification mode, remember? Itachi points his finger at the very beginning of the battle, Suigetsu gets stuck in a genjutsu long enough for Itachi to put some ninja stars through his entire body. Suigetsu dies.

How does he avoid it when he moves very slow in Susanoo?

Because Itachi doesn't activate susanoo until he's safe and sound on dry land. Not that it would get to that point in the fight anyways.

He was about to use one against Sasuke. And it's speed has already been demonstrated when Onoki failed to react to it. And since he's behind Itachi and all, it'll be hard to activate genjutsu and point his finger to cast it on Suigetsu since he has to dodge his sword.

Somebody else's speed with that technique was shown. Please prove that Suigetsu's is exactly the same. And again, since Suigetsu doesn't start in hydrification mode, he can do nothing before Itachi simply points his finger.

He wasn't in water form. When he did enter water form, he completely disappeared and reappeared behind Sasuke.

Pretty sure he was since he was still reforming from getting out of the tank, and he had water on him even though if he had turned all the way back to physical form it should have just merged with his body. Either way, though, Itachi still only has to point his finger.

It did work on Bee. That's how he intercepted his attack. Same with the Raikage. WITH HIS LIGHTNING CLOAK ON.

Again, that speed is unquantifiable since no distance was shown.

And the distance doesn't matter being that he disappeared into the ground and reappeared on the ground behind Sasuke, instead of just running that distance. And with his heavy sword, he's cutting off Itachi's head.

You seem to be implying that suigetsu could liquify the sword and take it with him when he does that.

He's not charging. He's doing what was stated above.

Except he's too slow to pull that off before Itachi points his finger.

Not to mention, Naruto is dumb so he probably did look into his eyes and forgot not to. Plus, since when does in a BG debate involving Itachi, he's replaced with an explosion clone without specification from the OP? And crows can be taken out with water bullets anyway.

Specualtion isn't valid. It was stated that all Itachi had to do was point. And Itachi has made clones so fast that not even B and Kakashi with his sharigan activated could see him do it. What makes you think Suigetsu could follow Itachi's movements?

[Uchiha Sora]

Go re-read the two Chapters Kumogakure VS Hawk and the first half of Sasuke's Dogma(maybe).
Right now. A was not moving when Suigetsu ran in. he was standing still with his fist raised. THEN he swung down. Sure it was from A, a fast character, but the attack itself was NOT FAST. A feat when someone runs in from an unknown distance at an unknown time is pretty much useless.

How do you even know he liquified? There's no evidence of that. And how he's supposed to magically go unnoticed is beyond me. and they're 50m away. with Itachi's reactions and sharingan seeing his chakra I don't understand how he's not easily reacted to and genjutsu'd. Before suigetsu even thinks of doing that, he's genjutsu'd. And if he really does liquify, you can still see Zabuza's huge sword moving around underwater along with his chakra. Itachi even reacted to Bee's blinside swinging Samehada when he was already concentrated on fighting Naruto WHILE having a deep conversation with him.

And by some miracle suigetsu actually traps him in his liquified body, Susano'o.
Either way it ends in Itachi's win off the bat or a draw.

We don't even know if Suigetsu can use Water Pistol or whatever its called. And even if he can, theres no telling how strong it will be, or how fast it is, or anything like that.

[megabbaut]

Not the part I was talking about. Very beginning of the battle; Suigetsu rushes B, and B waits until Suigetu is literally right up in his face before he even bothers to unfold his arms to counter.

Oh, nvm then. I thought we were talking about after Sasuke was impaled.
Itachi doesn't have the physical strength that Bee has.

Except the part where that speed is completely unquantifiable because we have no idea how far away he was when he began moving to block the attacks.

The distance between Suigetsu and Bee/Sasuke is shown on the beginning of chapter 412. Note how we see Jugo running but not Suigetsu.
Suigetsu was on a ledge when the Raikage blitzed Sasuke.

Suigetsu doesn't start in hydrification mode, remember? Itachi points his finger at the very beginning of the battle, Suigetsu gets stuck in a genjutsu long enough for Itachi to put some ninja stars through his entire body. Suigetsu dies.

He enters hydrification mode when he's attacked. When he gets hit by the shurikens, they don't do anything. he liquifies, and they pass right through him. When he went to get Zabuza's sword, he was stabbed with it, but he didn't feel the pain. He liquified afterwards and took it.

Because Itachi doesn't activate susanoo until he's safe and sound on dry land. Not that it would get to that point in the fight anyways.

He doesn't have to be on dry land for Suigetsu to get under Susanoo. He just has to get behind Itachi, turn into a puddle, go inside Susanoo, and kill him.

Somebody else's speed with that technique was shown. Please prove that Suigetsu's is exactly the same. And again, since Suigetsu doesn't start in hydrification mode, he can do nothing before Itachi simply points his finger.

Ima use simple logic here.

Prove that they aren't the same. That's like saying Gun A shoots a bullet faster than Gun B. Guns fire a bullet at the same speed. Same logic applies here.

Pretty sure he was since he was still reforming from getting out of the tank, and he had water on him even though if he had turned all the way back to physical form it should have just merged with his body. Either way, though, Itachi still only has to point his finger.

He'd still liquify if he was hit anyway. His body is not physical, it's intangible. Because he's water.


As for the finger, he's not doing that before Suigetsu gets behind him.

[Uchiha Sora]

Prove that they aren't the same. That's like saying Gun A shoots a bullet faster than Gun B. Guns fire a bullet at the same speed. Same logic applies here.

Prove he can use it at all. Prove that jutsu wasn't some other jutsu. Prove he wasn't acting like those random girls on random anime who point their finger and shoot to look cute.()
Alright so then Naruto's rasengan when he first learned it and his current rasengan variants are all the same strength. mhm. Yup. yup. And his rasengans are the same as Jiraiya and Minato's. Yup yup.

We don't know how much chakra Suigetsu pumps in. We don't know how small his may be. We don't know how powerful it is. We don't know how fast. Your example doesn't work here. These aren't real guns with the same bullets.

Hm. Which is harder to do. Point a finger... or liquify and swim over...50m... Not to mention Itachi can see him underwater and point at him while he swims.

And then there's always that staredown in the first part of the fight. Suigetsu would also have to think about what he's doing. Whereas Itachi is all like lawlzgenjutsu

[TRcommander]

Originally Posted by megabbaut

Oh, nvm then. I thought we were talking about after Sasuke was impaled.
Itachi doesn't have the physical strength that Bee has.

.........that wasn't the point. The point was that B casually reacted after waiting to move until Suigetsu was right in front of him, and that shows that Suigetsu's speed isn't that great.

The distance between Suigetsu and Bee/Sasuke is shown on the beginning of chapter 412. Note how we see Jugo running but not Suigetsu.
Suigetsu was on a ledge when the Raikage blitzed Sasuke.

Suigetsu was off panel that whole time. How do you know he didn't move?

He enters hydrification mode when he's attacked. When he gets hit by the shurikens, they don't do anything. he liquifies, and they pass right through him. When he went to get Zabuza's sword, he was stabbed with it, but he didn't feel the pain. He liquified afterwards and took it.

He can't do that when he's under genjutsu. I'm not presenting this as an either/or situation......Itachi puts him under genjutsu then he kills him with one attack.

He doesn't have to be on dry land for Suigetsu to get under Susanoo. He just has to get behind Itachi, turn into a puddle, go inside Susanoo, and kill him.

Not that it'd get to that point, but you think Itachi's not going to notice a puddle of water forming under his feet?

Ima use simple logic here.

Prove that they aren't the same. That's like saying Gun A shoots a bullet faster than Gun B. Guns fire a bullet at the same speed. Same logic applies here.

Except you're the one making the positive claim that they are the same, so it's your burden of proof to show that a move that Suigetsu has never used on panel before is exactly the same as someone else's. And by your logic, everybody that can use fire jutsu can use it at the same speed, everybody that can use mind transfer jutsu can use it at the same speed, every single person that has ever used the same jutsu can use it with the exact same speed and skill.........not valid logic. Prove that Suigetsu can use that technique at the exact same skill level that the Second Mizukage did.

He'd still liquify if he was hit anyway. His body is not physical, it's intangible. Because he's water.

Except he's in a genjutsu before he can liquify, so he's not water when he takes some ninja stars to the face and throat.

As for the finger, he's not doing that before Suigetsu gets behind him.

Exept he is because he's faster.

[colorles]

itachi can kill with genjutsu...but whats this 'lawl genjutsu'? killing with a glance doesnt seem all that lulzy...

[TRcommander]

Originally Posted by colorles

itachi can kill with genjutsu...but whats this 'lawl genjutsu'? killing with a glance doesnt seem all that lulzy...

...........I never thought I'd see the day that we ended up on the same side of a debate...........




Maybe the world really is going to end this year o.O

[Gaia]

Hm..this thread was pretty active, I'll reply to the posts that were replied to me then I'll try reading after I post to catch up

Originally Posted by TRcommander

Any particular reason he can't just walk? I think it's been long established that ninjas don't need to swim.

It's not susceptible to physical damage. Getting sealed doesn't cause physical damage.

How do you walk if you're surrounded by water? And Suigetsu can just follow.

Getting sealed doesn't cause physical damage, but it requires to get a physical hit in order to seal. Suigetsu is made of water, the Totsuka will go right through him and you have absolutely no proof that Totsuka has the capability of sealing any entity that isn't in physical form susceptible to piercing. So to be blunt, "proof or gtfo".

Genjutsu isn't useless. Neither is the totsuka sword, but there's obviously no way I can convince you of that.

Yes it is useless, and yes there is a way to convince me, by being right. You haven't convinced me yet because you're wrong and have no proof to convince otherwise, and I know of each of Itachi's appearances and that Totsuka is incapable of doing such a thing.

Itachi blitzed B using a crow clone and put him in a genjutsu that the Eight-Tails had to break him out of. This is the same B that casually reacted to Suigetsu and basically didn't even consider him a threat.

He wasn't trying to avoid looking into his eyes.

Originally Posted by JLI2infinity

Don't you guys have something called spite threads on Viz forums LOL.

This is a stomp, Akatsuki burns Suigetsu...it's fire that burns through ANYTHING including fire and water.

Then there's the whole Suigetsu can't break genjutsu thing.

Then there's the whole even if Suigetsu could do both those things Tobi pwned his swordsmanship with one hand, Kisame was parrying Suigetsu's attacks effortlessly, and Bee stomped Juugo and Suigetsu without breaking a sweat.

If Bee's swordsmanship >>>>>> Suigetsu's swordsmanship
and Itachi parried Bee's attacks then doesn't that mean

Itachi >>>> Suigetsu even in kenjutsu

That means even if by some miracle Itachi's attacks don't work Suigetsu still won't be able to hurt him so even if Itachi can't win Suigetsu can't lose.

/thread

Suigetsu liquifies and easily avoids and/or tanks Amaterasu. Suigetsu doesn't look into Itachi's eyes or at his hands to avoid genjutsu. Tobi stopped it and there was a clanging noise, Itachi doesn't have that capability. When Suigetsu swung at Bee, a gigantic crater smashed into the ground because of Suigetsu's strength. Bee also fought him with the upper hand, AKA Raiton which Itachi doesn't have. Try again please.

Originally Posted by Shikamaru Nara

Genjutsu, like I said.

Someone please tell me how Suigetsu avoids genjutsu?
I don't believe I got a clear answer last time.

'Knowledge' is quite a broad answer.

By not looking into his eyes as stated dozens of times previous..?

[TRcommander]

@Gaia: At this point, we're just going to have to agree to disagree about the totsuka sword because obviously neither one of us is ever going to convince the other based on what's been shown.

As far as genjutsu, Uchiha_Sora already showed that the finger genjutsu doesn't require the opponent to actually look at it.

Also, Itachi's susanoo took kirin so I don't see Suigetsu getting through it. Also, Itachi could simply dodge considering he's faster and all.

[Gaia]

Originally Posted by TRcommander

@Gaia: At this point, we're just going to have to agree to disagree about the totsuka sword because obviously neither one of us is ever going to convince the other based on what's been shown.

As far as genjutsu, Uchiha_Sora already showed that the finger genjutsu doesn't require to opponent to actually look at it.

Also, Itachi's susanoo took kirin so I don't see Suigetsu getting through it. Also, Itachi could simply dodge considering he's faster and all.

Well if you wish. However I think I should clarify either way as I may not have made it clear enough previously-- Itachi stabbing Suigetsu through the chest with Totsuka and proceeding to seal him is one thing. Obviously the stab through his chest will do virtually nothing physical wise as Suigetsu is immune. What you are claiming, is that despite no proof saying so, it can seal him, simply because although it is piercing him, it isn't. Sure, if you want to believe that he is able to be sealed from this point, I'm okay with that. What happens when Suigetsu uses his ability and liquifies? Itachi has no target.

When did he say this? I'm reading through on my own time, but if you didn't notice I wasn't here for the past few pages. ^^

Suigetsu may not be able to get through it however it's horribly draining for Itachi and while he sits in it the easier it becomes for Suigetsu to win, while if he doesn't sit in it he's in a seriously dangerous situation. On the other hand, Suigetsu can basically sit back, and take a nap(eyes shut, no genjutsu ) in liquid mode and chill while Itachi tries to hurt him wasting his chakra for no reason.

[Frost ninja]

He doesn't need to.

Suigetsu has no realistic quantifiable reaction feats.
Itachi blitzes in and shoves his fingers directly infront of both suigetsu's eyes before he can liquify, since he doesn't start out that way.

Its game from there. "I know I have to av- oh shiz" Then genjutsu'd. He can know all he wants, he isn't going to be able to do anything about it.

Plus he can also Toska blitz since it worked on Prime nagato whose reactions are much much much better than Suigetsus. The only counter, supposidly, is to liquify (even though theres no proof it stops the sealing aside from you stating it yourself.) and he won't have time to do it.

[Gaia]

Originally Posted by Frost ninja

He doesn't need to.

Suigetsu has no realistic quantifiable reaction feats.
Itachi blitzes in and shoves his fingers directly infront of both suigetsu's eyes before he can liquify, since he doesn't start out that way.

Its game from there. "I know I have to av- oh shiz" Then genjutsu'd. He can know all he wants, he isn't going to be able to do anything about it.

Plus he can also Toska blitz since it worked on Prime nagato whose reactions are much much much better than Suigetsus. The only counter, supposidly, is to liquify (even though theres no proof it stops the sealing aside from you stating it yourself.) and he won't have time to do it.

When has Itachi's speed ever been this good to blitz 50 meters before Suigetsu can do literally anything more than process a thought?

And please do give me a good scan of where Itachi has ever shoved his hand in someone's face to genjutsu them, because that's highly Out of Character last I checked and entirely made of bull. The least I would have expected is a "Agree to disagree" like TRCommander or at best "You're right, Gaia," not desperately pull some random thing out of your ass to have something to stand on to give Itachi a reason he wins.

Besides, doesn't start in liquid form? The only time he's ever not in liquid form is when he doesn't have enough chakra, otherwise he can activate it within nanoseconds of a physical attack touching him each time he's been nonchalantly chilling and then gets hit and instantly liquifies.

[Shadowterra]

Originally Posted by TRcommander

Also, Itachi's susanoo took kirin so I don't see Suigetsu getting through it. Also, Itachi could simply dodge considering he's faster and all.

suigetsus faster than itachi?in part 1 itachi formed seals so fast even kakashi with his sharingan could't see them.

And itachi has ALOT more attacks than just amaterasu,susanoo and tsukuyami, itachi has a fire nature of chakra AND A WATER NATURE. this means he too can use water style jutsu so he could use water dragon and water gun

[Gaia]

Originally Posted by Shadowterra

suigetsus faster than itachi?in part 1 itachi formed seals so fast even kakashi with his sharingan could't see them.

And itachi has ALOT more attacks than just amaterasu,susanoo and tsukuyami, itachi has a fire nature of chakra AND A WATER NATURE. this means he too can use water style jutsu so he could use water dragon and water gun

Fire nature gets eaten by Suigetsu's oh I don't know, water nature? And water nature on a liquid 'logia' water body is just...

[Frost ninja]

Originally Posted by Gaia

When has Itachi's speed ever been this good to blitz 50 meters before Suigetsu can do literally anything more than process a thought?

And please do give me a good scan of where Itachi has ever shoved his hand in someone's face to genjutsu them, because that's highly Out of Character last I checked and entirely made of bull. The least I would have expected is a "Agree to disagree" like TRCommander or at best "You're right, Gaia," not desperately pull some random thing out of your ass to have something to stand on to give Itachi a reason he wins.

Besides, doesn't start in liquid form? The only time he's ever not in liquid form is when he doesn't have enough chakra, otherwise he can activate it within nanoseconds of a physical attack touching him each time he's been nonchalantly chilling and then gets hit and instantly liquifies.

Suigetsu lacks reacions. He doesnt need to be exceptionally fast.

He basically blitz slaughtered PTS sasuke and forced him into Genjutsu. So no, its not OOC for him to force genjutsus on people via blitz. I won't say "your right, Gaia" since... you know... your not.

No, he doesn't start in liquid. And liquifying to Karen's kick isn't impressive. And Nanoseconds? Scans please. I'll need one to quantify, show me this. Because that sounds like an empty grasp.

[TRcommander]

Originally Posted by Shadowterra

suigetsus faster than itachi?in part 1 itachi formed seals so fast even kakashi with his sharingan could't see them.

Yeah.......I think you misunderstood my post. I've been pointing out that Itachi can blitz Suigetsu with a genjutu for a while now. When I said, "he's faster and all" I was referring to Itachi.

[Uchiha Sora]

Once again,what stops the magic finger off the bat?
Whether it be attempting to blindside, or merging with the water, Itachi can still follow and point his finger at him before hes unrecognizable. He doesnt need to have suigetsu looking at his finger. Don't know where that came from.

[megabbaut]

Originally Posted by Uchiha_Sora

Once again,what stops the magic finger?
Whether it be attempting to blindside, or merging with the water, Itachi can still follow and point his finger at him before hes unrecognizable. He doesnt need to have suigetsu looking at his finger. Don't know where that came from.

He gets behind Itachi and cuts his head off. There's still no counter for that. No, Itachi can't point his finger when Suigetsu disappears. No, Itachi can't put him in genjutsu when he's behind him.

And the fact still remains that even if he does get put in genjutsu, nothing will happen to him since the crow ninja stars can't hurt Suigetsu since he's intangible.