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Omniverse Anything goes in this forum. Any multiverse, any singleverse, any fight. Just know in advance that Kakashi can't beat Superman.

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Old 04-10-2012, 01:17 AM   #21
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Default Re: Discord vs Arceus

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Old 04-10-2012, 01:32 AM   #22
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Default Re: Discord vs Arceus

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Only he doesn't have to be. They aren't fighting on multiverses, and toonforce basically allows him near omnipresence since he can snap-port. Arceus can keep making universes and have them keep being turned into treats. A limitless force of entropy isn't going to tire out before a pokemon.

Thats if he doesn't simply turn Arceus into a pie.
Again, when was the last time he affected multiverses? He can affect as many singular universes as he wants, but from what I've heard said here, he hasn't shown anything on a multiversal scale. There really is a huge difference. Arceus can just make a multiverse, and that would be the end of him. Discord needs feats before saying he can affect things on that level.
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Old 04-10-2012, 01:35 AM   #23
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Default Re: Discord vs Arceus

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Again, when was the last time he affected multiverses? He can affect as many singular universes as he wants, but from what I've heard said here, he hasn't shown anything on a multiversal scale. There really is a huge difference. Arceus can just make a multiverse, and that would be the end of him. Discord needs feats before saying he can affect things on that level.
As the multiverse is made, it becomes a treat.

As I said, all verses start small, even multiverses. Its not like "Oh hey, a wild multiverse just appeared." Even still, it would have to expand.

And the creation of such a thing would just supercharge Discord since by creating a multiverse you've just made multiple universes worth of entropy all in one big blast.

So yes, Arceus makes a multiverse and then Discord becomes the new TOAA. Plus to destroy discord would be to destroy everything. Being discord is the chaos that is necessary to countbalance order in the grand scheme, to destroy him by any means is to destroy everything in the universe, including itself.

Basically, Discord is disharmony. He lives so long as there is entropy. So long as there is existance, there is entropy. Discord cannot be destroyed so long as there is something aside from him left in existance. Arceus would have to die itself before Discord would, and even then he can just Generate more Chaos.

He may be omnipotent and we just haven't realized it.
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Old 04-10-2012, 01:42 AM   #24
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Default Re: Discord vs Arceus

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As the multiverse is made, it becomes a treat.

As I said, all verses start small, even multiverses. Its not like "Oh hey, a wild multiverse just appeared." Even still, it would have to expand.

And the creation of such a thing would just supercharge Discord since by creating a multiverse you've just made multiple universes worth of entropy all in one big blast.

So yes, Arceus makes a multiverse and then Discord becomes the new TOAA.
The problem is that a multiverse doesn't grow out of nothing. It would have just as much mass when it is first being formed as when it's expanded. The energy is just compressed into a much smaller space. So if he can't affect a multiverse when it's "fully" expanded (quotes because I'm not sure they're ever fully expanded) then he still can't affect it when it's forming because it's still the same amount of mass. So again, he needs multiversal feats before claiming he's multiversal. Saying he could survive a multiversal creation just because he survived a single universal creation doesn't work.

And I would highly suggest not throwing out the omnipotent word so lightly. He's been shown to handle the entropy from one universe.....that doesn't mean he could do so with multiple.
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Old 04-10-2012, 01:44 AM   #25
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Default Re: Discord vs Arceus

Read my edit.

He can survive anything, pretty much. On a seperate note, he has shown plenty of ability to warp reality, physics, and the like when he is around. A multiverse the size of a nickle becomes an energy suppliment for him. Its all about range. If the multiverse isn't already at an infinate width, he can mass compress it by creating a focus of entropy.

Taken from a thermodynamic stance, entropy basically means work can't occur in one area, rather its constantly shifting from one to another (thus eliminating perpetual motion). Thus he can let his area become an entropy focus, and all of the "work" (I.E. chaos) will be forced to move location. Using the toon force nigh-onmipresence, he can compress the universe down to whatever degree he needs to in order to manipulate it.

And omnipotence is the perfect word for it, since theres not really any way to kill him while he has near-free reign over the existance of most anything around him. The limit to his power is that which comes with Chaos. So long as there is some form of order in the universe, his power is literally limitless. Even if the order is compressed to a singularity, so long as he can keep compressing it (which, through the law of entropy, he can) then theres nothing to stop him.
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Old 04-10-2012, 01:48 AM   #26
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Default Re: Discord vs Arceus

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Read my edit.

He can survive anything, pretty much.
Like I said in my response.......he's shown such feats for one universe, not multiple. There's a huge gap between 1 universe and 2 when you're dealing with entire universes.
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Old 04-10-2012, 01:50 AM   #27
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Default Re: Discord vs Arceus

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Like I said in my response.......he's shown such feats for one universe, not multiple. There's a huge gap between 1 universe and 2 when you're dealing with entire universes.

So long as chaos exists in the new universe, he isn't dying.

Also I put a nice hefty line of logic which shows that Discord can basically compress anything Arceus can do and then turn it into whatever he wants, while at the same time becoming more powerful.
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Old 04-10-2012, 01:59 AM   #28
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Default Re: Discord vs Arceus

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So long as chaos exists in the new universe, he isn't dying.

Also I put a nice hefty line of logic which shows that Discord can basically compress anything Arceus can do and then turn it into whatever he wants, while at the same time becoming more powerful.
Your reasoning is nice and all, but it lacks feats. Also, consider this; the entropy of one system can be decreased by increasing the entropy of a different system. The entropy being decreased into non-existence is Discord (and the entire mlp verse), and the systems with increasing entropy are those new universes Arceus is making in their place. Discord, being a universal being at best based on actual feats, can do nothing to stop this because his opponent is a multiversal being. Not only that, but the process would literally be sucking his powers away.
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Old 04-10-2012, 02:10 AM   #29
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Default Re: Discord vs Arceus

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Your reasoning is nice and all, but it lacks feats. Also, consider this; the entropy of one system can be decreased by increasing the entropy of a different system. The entropy being decreased into non-existence is Discord (and the entire mlp verse), and the systems with increasing entropy are those new universes Arceus is making in their place. Discord, being a universal being at best based on actual feats, can do nothing to stop this because his opponent is a multiversal being. Not only that, but the process would literally be sucking his powers away.
Lets assume what you say is true, but recall what you said before about a multiverse forming. As you said, the mass is already there. Thus, the entropy is also there. The powers aren't sucked away, if nothing else it just expands his presence. Feats wise, he hasn't done much outside of show his reality warping skills and toonforce.

However, the back-story to him along with the character itself is what generates these powers. The flash was never shown to have an "infinate mass punch" but rather, someone calculated his speed off of a feat and applied it to a physics calculation which showed he could add so much momentum by speeding up that his punch's mass would become that of infinity.

Discord is an embodyment of the entropy in existance. Moving the entropy over a span of a multiverse isn't taking away any power since, by nature, its still entropy. Above that, by creating the multiverse you are either adding mass or spreading it thinner. Either way works in the benefit of Discord.

Adding mass is adding entropy, which further powers him. Thinning it makes it easier to manipulate. Unless you'd have feats to show me that Arceus can somehow erase chaos from the universe, or for that matter infulence things on a multiversal level. I've read it created the pokemon universe, however I've yet to see anything about any other universe. On the note of it "creating" a pokemon verse, it can appearently for universes. Doing so further powers Discord who then has the added benefit of an extra universe's worth of entropy. This is further added in magnitude with the expansion factor, meaning the entire place is a big growing ball, and every moment passing is generating more and more entropy and chaos.

From the center, its like tossing a rock in a pond. The waves around it get bigger, and it looses more than one on most parts. This is the same, as the middle pushes out, the sides do as well. Every movement made causes entropy.

Plain and simple is that Discord lasts as long as discord, which is forever. Arceus will become a pie, or whatever other form since it has to have both a order and chaotic side in order to exist. The chaotic is what discord can manipulate.
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Old 04-10-2012, 02:21 AM   #30
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Default Re: Discord vs Arceus

Its scary to think about, but Lauren Faust made something that puts MLP on the map in a much bigger way than expected. But its mostly just the top tiers (Discord, Celestia, Luna)
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Old 04-10-2012, 02:28 AM   #31
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Default Re: Discord vs Arceus

But now we're back to him only being universal, not multiversal. So he survives as the entropy in one universe but not in multiple. With that being said, you've managed to stump me (at least for now) as to how Arceus could actually kill the thing, but, at the same time, Discord still hasn't been shown turning anything near the multiversal level into candy so that's still not going to work on Arceus.
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Old 04-10-2012, 02:32 AM   #32
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Default Re: Discord vs Arceus

As I said, where Is arceus multiversal?

It seems he can only make one at a time barring dimensions, and Discord has universal capability as you said, so he takes them down as they come. Back to my other point, Discord is infinate while Arceus needs the plates to survive. Eventually they will either all be turned ino treats if not Arceus himself, and Arceus is gaurenteed to run out of energy before Discord. He won't even be winded.

So if its a war of attrition, Discord wins. I need to see some feats of Arceus making multiple universes at once, barring dimensions, otherwise I have fair say that Discord just turns them all into sugar lumps as they are being made, one at a time, possibly at a faster rate than Arceus can make them.
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Old 04-10-2012, 02:37 AM   #33
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Default Re: Discord vs Arceus

Ok, let's say for a moment Arceus can successfully launch a Judgement attack that successfully strikes Discord.........don't think Discord could take such an attack
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Old 04-10-2012, 02:52 AM   #34
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Default Re: Discord vs Arceus

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As I said, where Is arceus multiversal? It seems he can only make one at a time barring dimensions,


give me a sec......i keep forgetting this site deletes my posts if I put an accent in pokemon.
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Old 04-10-2012, 03:00 AM   #35
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Default Re: Discord vs Arceus

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Ok, let's say for a moment Arceus can successfully launch a Judgement attack that successfully strikes Discord.........don't think Discord could take such an attack
He uses judgement.
Being that theres still matter in existance, Discord lives from the fact that he is the embodyment of chaos and entropy, which is generated through something as small as the movement of cells.

Unless you can eliminate chaos itself, you cannot eliminate Discord.

Thats if Arceus can even use it before becoming a sammich.
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Old 04-10-2012, 03:01 AM   #36
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As I said, where Is arceus multiversal? It seems he can only make one at a time barring dimensions
Spoiler:


The green sphere contains the pokemon version of Earth along with at least hundreds of other shown galaxies. Basically, just imagine what our universe looks like, and that's what the writers put. The orange one is where Arceus lives, and if you'll notice it's about the same size or slightly bigger than the green one. And when Arceus sleeps there, it literally has entire galaxies orbiting it. So there's two universes about the same size as ours. Then you have the three smaller ones. And at the beginning, Arceus existed in nothingness then it simply made the pokeverse.

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Discord has universal capability as you said
No no no......Discord is universal as you said. I'm taking your word for it based on the arguments you've presented.

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Discord is infinate
I don't think you can prove that.

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while Arceus needs the plates to survive. Eventually they will either all be turned ino treats if not Arceus himself, and Arceus is gaurenteed to run out of energy before Discord. He won't even be winded.
And, once again, Discord can't affect multiversal beings unless you can show some panel feats.

also, i'm off for now.

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Old 04-10-2012, 03:09 AM   #37
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Default Re: Discord vs Arceus

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The green sphere contains the pokemon version of Earth along with at least hundreds of other shown galaxies. Basically, just imagine what our universe looks like, and that's what the writers put. The orange one is where Arceus lives, and if you'll notice it's about the same size or slightly bigger than the green one. And when Arceus sleeps there, it literally has entire galaxies orbiting it. So there's two universes about the same size as ours. Then you have the three smaller ones. And at the beginning, Arceus existed in nothingness then it simply made the pokeverse.



No no no......Discord is universal as you said. I'm taking your word for it based on the arguments you've presented.



I don't think you can prove that.



And, once again, Discord can't affect multiversal beings unless you can show some panel feats.

Now then my question is that... Can you prove those are universes? After all, the size of our own universe is unknown, so we cannot say for sure that so much of a distance makes for a seperate section. Past that, if we assume "universe" can vary in size, how can we assume what size Discord can and cannot control? Also a galaxy is a very very very very very small, almost ininately small portion of a full universe.

I said he is an embodyment of entropy, and making a multiverse will simply give him more presence. I stated that his area of effect spans as far as discord itself goes, which is anywhere in which things can exist or even cease to exist. You gave a marker on "universal" based on feats, I gave a marker of "omnipotence" due to the nature and spread of chaos.

I can prove that so long as there is existance, and even in lack of existance, both chaos and entropy exist and thus Discord would, in turn, be infinate. Also I was using "discord" meaning chaos in that sentence, though I can see if you misunderstood. I might be misunderstanding you right now, in fact.

He can control chaos. Unless you have some feats to prove Arceus lacks chaos (in which case he neither exists nor does not exist, since both would hold chaos), then I'd say the embodyment of said chaos will have a field day with it. I don't see how "multiversal beings" would suddenly be immune when its maybe only 8 times as large as a human, something Discord himself can probably expand far beyond.


Yeah me too. Debating about the multiverse is tiring
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Old 04-10-2012, 01:08 PM   #38
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Default Re: Discord vs Arceus

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Originally Posted by Frost ninja View Post
Now then my question is that... Can you prove those are universes? After all, the size of our own universe is unknown, so we cannot say for sure that so much of a distance makes for a seperate section.
The pokemon version of Earth is just that......an alternate version of our existing world. They even reference dozens of real life people, places, cultures, etc throughout the entire series. That coupled with the fact that their universe has been shown to have at least hundreds, if not thousands, of galaxies in it shows that it's a universe on par with real life because it's just an alternate version of real life. Then you have to take into account that all of that is only the green sphere. Like I said, the orange one is probably slightly bigger than that, not to mention a few smaller ones thrown in as well.

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Past that, if we assume "universe" can vary in size, how can we assume what size Discord can and cannot control?
Easy......panel feats. The very foundation of vs debating is the answer you're looking for here.

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Also a galaxy is a very very very very very small, almost ininately small portion of a full universe.
That was just a passing remark. I mean really, how OP do you have to be to have galaxies orbiting you in your sleep? Not that it matters for this debate or anything, just thought it was a cool feat.

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I said he is an embodyment of entropy, and making a multiverse will simply give him more presence. I stated that his area of effect spans as far as discord itself goes, which is anywhere in which things can exist or even cease to exist. You gave a marker on "universal" based on feats, I gave a marker of "omnipotence" due to the nature and spread of chaos.

I can prove that so long as there is existance, and even in lack of existance, both chaos and entropy exist and thus Discord would, in turn, be infinate. Also I was using "discord" meaning chaos in that sentence, though I can see if you misunderstood. I might be misunderstanding you right now, in fact.

He can control chaos. Unless you have some feats to prove Arceus lacks chaos (in which case he neither exists nor does not exist, since both would hold chaos), then I'd say the embodyment of said chaos will have a field day with it.
Question......how does your supposed omnipotent get turned into stone?

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I don't see how "multiversal beings" would suddenly be immune when its maybe only 8 times as large as a human, something Discord himself can probably expand far beyond.
Since when does size matter? (no double entendre intended) Arceus isn't even the biggest pokemon, but that doesn't mean it's not the most powerful.
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Old 04-10-2012, 02:21 PM   #39
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Default Re: Discord vs Arceus

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Originally Posted by TRcommander View Post
The pokemon version of Earth is just that......an alternate version of our existing world. They even reference dozens of real life people, places, cultures, etc throughout the entire series. That coupled with the fact that their universe has been shown to have at least hundreds, if not thousands, of galaxies in it shows that it's a universe on par with real life because it's just an alternate version of real life. Then you have to take into account that all of that is only the green sphere. Like I said, the orange one is probably slightly bigger than that, not to mention a few smaller ones thrown in as well.



Easy......panel feats. The very foundation of vs debating is the answer you're looking for here.



That was just a passing remark. I mean really, how OP do you have to be to have galaxies orbiting you in your sleep? Not that it matters for this debate or anything, just thought it was a cool feat.



Question......how does your supposed omnipotent get turned into stone?



Since when does size matter? (no double entendre intended) Arceus isn't even the biggest pokemon, but that doesn't mean it's not the most powerful.

Universes can span to have an almost uncountable amount of galaxies in it. Not to mention ours is still going. Also another question is are those universes or dimensions? How can we be sure there isn't another arceus, for that matter? I'll let it dwell that capturing the legendary birds in the second movie caused the world to go out of whack, and yet in the anime a multitude of people (bosses, one might say) had them. I seem to recall Charizard fighting an articuno, in fact. Why wasn't the world being torn apart?

What I'm asking is how big is MLPverse? How big is pokemon verse in comparison? Not that it matters, as I said the spread of chaos lets him keep going.

Yes it is.

Through the power of friendship. But in reality, the elements of harmony seem to be some kind of mad hax which takes out all of the hatred and whatnot out of people. However Squirrel girl has beaten Thanos off panel, so it does happen on occation that a boss will lose to a much smaller force. However the EoH not only imprisoned an almost infinate power (which he breaks out whenever it changes hands) but also erased the presence of the queen of the night (being nightmare moon, someone the godess of the sun deemed too dangerous to keep on earth). If you have held hatred in your heart, or hell, if they don't like you, EoH will rainbow you some loss. But in the long run, it was for story effect. Discord survived as stone for as long as he was, and I can only assume the EoH removed his entropy via friendship power. Even still, he didn't die at all, in fact he only lost because of his overconfidence... and when the pony equivalent of "god" is powerless to stop you after making everything in existance and has to rely on the almighty power of good in the hands of 6 people, you can also assume that either the powers are really hax in the EoH or the story needed movement and closure. Arceus nearly died from human influence, and had to be saved twice over.

You said "multiuniversal beings" were immune. I was asking where you figure she was immune when her size is definately in the span of his powers and she has chaos of some form in her.
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Old 04-10-2012, 03:34 PM   #40
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Default Re: Discord vs Arceus

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Originally Posted by Frost ninja View Post
Universes can span to have an almost uncountable amount of galaxies in it. Not to mention ours is still going. Also another question is are those universes or dimensions?
Like I said, the pokemon world is just an alternate version of the real life world so unless you want to claim that the Earth isn't in a universe then the green sphere is an entire universe, not just a dimension.

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How can we be sure there isn't another arceus, for that matter?
Because in the beginning there was only Arceus (as far as we know for now at least.....I wouldn't put it past them to throw in some more OP pokemon in the future, but that's just speculation) so the only way for there to be another Arceus is if the first one made it. Of course I'm not sure if it could make a being with the same level of power as itself since it hasn't in the series.

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I'll let it dwell that capturing the legendary birds in the second movie caused the world to go out of whack, and yet in the anime a multitude of people (bosses, one might say) had them. I seem to recall Charizard fighting an articuno, in fact. Why wasn't the world being torn apart?
Unlike Arceus, there's more than one Articuno. It's a common misconception that there's only one of each legendary, but there are more of some of them. Articuno is an example of that.

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What I'm asking is how big is MLPverse? How big is pokemon verse in comparison? Not that it matters, as I said the spread of chaos lets him keep going.
Idk? But how do you know he can keep going outside of the mlp verse?

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Through the power of friendship. But in reality, the elements of harmony seem to be some kind of mad hax which takes out all of the hatred and whatnot out of people. However Squirrel girl has beaten Thanos off panel, so it does happen on occation that a boss will lose to a much smaller force. However the EoH not only imprisoned an almost infinate power (which he breaks out whenever it changes hands) but also erased the presence of the queen of the night (being nightmare moon, someone the godess of the sun deemed too dangerous to keep on earth). If you have held hatred in your heart, or hell, if they don't like you, EoH will rainbow you some loss. But in the long run, it was for story effect. Discord survived as stone for as long as he was, and I can only assume the EoH removed his entropy via friendship power. Even still, he didn't die at all, in fact he only lost because of his overconfidence... and when the pony equivalent of "god" is powerless to stop you after making everything in existance and has to rely on the almighty power of good in the hands of 6 people, you can also assume that either the powers are really hax in the EoH or the story needed movement and closure.
Wait a second..........did you just claim that Squirrel Girl is a much smaller force than Thanos Now she's going to have to break the fourth wall and go hunt you down just to show you how overpowered she is. Her hax > omnipotence
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But anyways.......so what you're telling me is that all Arceus has to do is trap him in stone?

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Arceus nearly died from human influence, and had to be saved twice over.
That movie had more CIS and PIS in it than the entire hst combined.

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You said "multiuniversal beings" were immune. I was asking where you figure she was immune when her size is definately in the span of his powers and she has chaos of some form in her.
Until Discord is shown on panel affecting a multiversal being, saying he could is just speculation. The size of said multiversal being in a physical form doesn't matter. Discord needs panel feats otherwise, for debate purposes, you can't claim that his hax can affect beings stronger than what it's been shown to.
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