Tier Debate: Gaara VS. SM Jiraiya

[Godaime Kazekage]

Originally Posted by Gaia

As seen with the second Mizukage, water is already Gaara's weakness, he broke out of Gaara's sand by soaking it. This time cannons of water will be smashing into Gaara's defenses, I'm quite confident the water part of it isn't needed at all.

I'm new and I'm not sure how to multiquote yet so I'll try to respond to some of your stuff in numbers.

1. Gaara is not weak to water...why do people keep saying this?! The Mizukage's OIL was breaking down Gaara's sand, it wasn't being "soaked" by water.
2. What do the relative strengths of the Shukaku air bullets and Gamabunta's water bullets have to do with this battle?
3.The part about the tongue is also not relevant. Gaara sent two small waves of sand to try to put Naruto in a sand coffin which were blocked by the tongue. He never tried to crush the tongue. This method isn't even an effective defense, because Gaara then used the sand underneath Naruto to try and encase him.
4. What does Jiraiya have that can get through Gaara's ultimate defense? If you're going to argue the water bullets, I'll save you the hassle of typing-Gaara's normal sand stopped Deidara's C3 and the Mizukage's Joki Boi-do you think the water bullets are stronger than those techs?

[Gaia]

Originally Posted by Godaime Kazekage

I'm new and I'm not sure how to multiquote yet so I'll try to respond to some of your stuff in numbers.

1. Gaara is not weak to water...why do people keep saying this?! The Mizukage's OIL was breaking down Gaara's sand, it wasn't being "soaked" by water.

It wasn't oil, it was similar to oil. Regardless, why are you acting like this is a bad thing that Gaara's sand is completely and utterly useless against oil? This makes it much better for Jiraiya on account that he can easily spray oil, oil, one thing Jiraiya is known for, to make Gaara's sand useless.

As I said, I wouldn't have used the water bullets as one of my key points, so don't start about this. Although I don't think Gaara is necessarily weak to water, I find the water bullets highly effective if not for their power in the first place, rather than their effectiveness because they're made of water.

2. What do the relative strengths of the Shukaku air bullets and Gamabunta's water bullets have to do with this battle?

It was directed at the other guy, he was claiming that the water bullets haven't leveled forests when Gaara's sand has(which it hasn't). Not in fact true, as Shukaku's wind bullets easily destroyed part of a forest and the water bullets are each individually stronger.

It's a bijuu for a reason. Shukaku is still a feared opponent and I don't see many beating him alone, this is why Akatsuki were sent in twos. It's a fair assessment of the water bullet's effectiveness. Giant boss summons have attacks on a giant scale, it's simple.

3.The part about the tongue is also not relevant. Gaara sent two small waves of sand to try to put Naruto in a sand coffin which were blocked by the tongue. He never tried to crush the tongue. This method isn't even an effective defense, because Gaara then used the sand underneath Naruto to try and encase him.

The tongue surrounded Naruto, and Gaara tried to use sand coffin on it. He failed to destroy the tongue, his sand wasn't strong enough. He did however use it on Kimimaro and he failed to even resist it. His bones survived of course. Gamabunta's tongue is durable, I'm not talking about his defense himself but the other guy was hyping the strength of Gaara's sand and its ability to crush Gamabunta. When his tongue was so durable to fend off a sand coffin then I fail to see how it will do anything to Gamabunta himself.

You can't really consider these things I'm saying as relevant or not, I'm only replying and refuting what someone else said specifically, not necessarily the reasons Jiraiya wins.

4. What does Jiraiya have that can get through Gaara's ultimate defense? If you're going to argue the water bullets, I'll save you the hassle of typing-Gaara's normal sand stopped Deidara's C3 and the Mizukage's Joki Boi-do you think the water bullets are stronger than those techs?

Yes, in destructive power I find water bullets, as you've seen them accomplish, far stronger. The attacks you gave examples of were all explosions which to be frank Gaara's sand works perfect for. If I had to name a few, I'd say ultra giant Rasengan, hair needles senbon, water bullets(heh), and so on. I find his giant rasengan to work perfectly for this sort of thing, he easily bypasses Gaara's sand and, not to be rude to Gaara, obliterates him with prettty little effort.

[Godaime Kazekage]

Originally Posted by Gaia

It wasn't oil, it was similar to oil.
Not just similar, he commented it's composition was more like oil than water which was why it affected his sand.
Regardless, why are you acting like this is a bad thing that Gaara's sand is completely and utterly useless against oil? This makes it much better for Jiraiya on account that he can easily spray oil, oil, one thing Jiraiya is known for, to make Gaara's sand useless.
Read a post I wrote earlier in this thread in response to that. Essentially, Jiraiya wouldn't decide to attack him with oil. As seen from his earlier battle strategies.

It was directed at the other guy, he was claiming that the water bullets haven't leveled forests when Gaara's sand has(which it hasn't).
You should reread Chapter 215 if you still think that. Or if you're an anime watcher it's Episode 126. This btw was on a much more impressive scale than the air bullet attack.

When his tongue was so durable to fend off a sand coffin then I fail to see how it will do anything to Gamabunta himself.
First off, this was a sand coffin intended for Naruto, a human with no special defense. Secondly, do you really think the strength and scale of PTS Gaara's sand attacks are on the same level as current Gaara? Gaara just has to crush Gamabunta's leg and he's done, which he's perfectly capable of.


Yes, in destructive power I find water bullets, as you've seen them accomplish, far stronger. The attacks you gave examples of were all explosions which to be frank Gaara's sand works perfect for. If I had to name a few, I'd say ultra giant Rasengan, hair needles senbon, water bullets(heh), and so on. I find his giant rasengan to work perfectly for this sort of thing, he easily bypasses Gaara's sand and, not to be rude to Gaara, obliterates him with prettty little effort.
First off, Senbon...seriously...? Next, how does being an explosion change anything? I'm certain that the force exhibited by those techs over the same area are much stronger than a water bullet and I'm sure most people would agree with me. I think you are seriously overestimating the water bullet trying to think that they are Bijuu level. The air bullets are not anywhere near TBB power and Shukaku split the attack into five bullets so the overall attack strength was actually greater than Gama's in that one got through and hit Gama (aka 4/5 the overall strength of the total air bullets).
A question for you? Who's Rasengan techs do you think are stronger-Naruto's or Jiraiya's? If you chose Naruto, as pretty much everyone would, then you've got a problem with you're earlier statement. Naruto stated during the war that he thought Gaara had the strongest defense of all Shinobi (after fighting the 3rd Raikage who Naruto's Rasen Shuriken didn't effect). Do you really think he would make this statement if his giant rasengan could "easily bypass his sand and obliterate him with pretty little effort"?

In blue.

[Gaia]

Why would Jiraiya not use oil? It's sand, Mizukage found it effective I don't think Jiraiya will just ignore that when it's part of his main arsenal. He's used it in every one of his fights, just because he's facing Gaara here and it will make Gaara's sand useless doesn't mean he won't use it so your Gaara can win.

What is your point? Gaara still tried to use sand coffin, and he couldn't destroy Gamabunta's tongue. And how does crushing Gamabunta's leg impair his ability to blast water bullets?

Yes, seriously. If you forgot, it's not regular senbon but Jiraiya's fastest attack and hard-as-rock senbon that literally ripped through the pure rock summon that Pain summoned to defend against it. I see those things easily passing through Gaara's sand and ripping him to shreds.

I also find Jiraiya's ultra giant rasengan much stronger than Naruto's rasengan variants. Until Naruto gains the experience and actual destructive power with using the same type of rasengan, then Jiraiya's are naturally stronger. When did Naruto imply that although Gaara has the strongest shield that any of his super powered Rasengan would fail to break through? I mean it's still Naruto, it isn't an analytical all-knowing genius who can give a 100% accurate description that Gaara's sand is unbreakable by rasengan.

Water Bullets are still gigantic forest leveling water bullets, and made of water at that. I don't think that gigantic near lake-sized blast of water will be able to completely be ignored by Gaara's sand. Either way its sheer power should break through, he hasn't ever defended against sheer force like this, and he hasn't defended against a TBB. I don't know where I implied it was on TBB level, but...sure.

[Godaime Kazekage]

As I said in my earlier post, Jiraiya only uses oil in conjunction with fire attacks which wouldn't affect Gaara's sand. Jiraiya has no knowledge of Gaara's weakness to oil and isn't known to be all that smart, so he probably wouldn't come up with the idea to use it to drench the sand. Even if he die, Gaara could just take to the skies to avoid it. Since when is Gaara "my Gaara"? Please debate courteously without attacking the other debaters-you didn't see me typing "your Suigetsu" in the other thread-although I admit Gaara is one of my favorite characters, partially because he is so strong, I still take both Jiraiya and Gaara's strengths and weaknesses into account and there are plenty of shinobi that I think are stronger than Gaara, it's just Jiraiya w/out frogsong isn't one of them.

Destroying the leg doesn't stop him from blasting water bullets, but Gama's mobility and usefulness are limited in that case.

Not sure where you're getting the facts about the senbon. You might want to read Chapter 377 again. Pain's panda summon stopped them and they barely made it a few inches into the summon-far from being "ripped through". At any rate, how can you compare the panda summon to Gaara's ultimate defense?

The statement about Jiraiya's rasengans being much stronger than Naruto's is just pure fantasy and character favoritism-there is absolutely no manga evidence for this. Check out what Naruto could do against Muu if you don't believe me-and yes Naruto can use the Cho Odama Rasengan-he's used it against the Kyuubi and Madara.

I thought that you would naturally make the connection that Naruto didn't believe his rasengans could work against Gaara when he just got done fighting a battle in which his most powerful rasengan variant failed to work on his opponent and then Naruto said he thought the guy with the strongest shield was not his opponent (3rd Raikage) but Gaara. I'm not saying that Naruto is an analytical genius, but it can be inferred from his statement that Gaara's sand shield>Naruto's rasengans which are>Jiraiya's rasengans.

Lake sized water bullets...not even close. Also, as I stated before I think there was just as much if not more force behind C3 and Joki Boi than the bullets.

[Gaia]

Originally Posted by Godaime Kazekage

As I said in my earlier post, Jiraiya only uses oil in conjunction with fire attacks which wouldn't affect Gaara's sand. Jiraiya has no knowledge of Gaara's weakness to oil and isn't known to be all that smart, so he probably wouldn't come up with the idea to use it to drench the sand. Even if he die, Gaara could just take to the skies to avoid it. Since when is Gaara "my Gaara"? Please debate courteously without attacking the other debaters-you didn't see me typing "your Suigetsu" in the other thread-although I admit Gaara is one of my favorite characters, partially because he is so strong, I still take both Jiraiya and Gaara's strengths and weaknesses into account and there are plenty of shinobi that I think are stronger than Gaara, it's just Jiraiya w/out frogsong isn't one of them.

Would a 4.5 in intelligence and able to recall specific words on specific pages of specific chapters in a specific book out of multiple books sway your opinion on his intelligence? I don't think it's all that intelligence based in that to find Gaara's weakness anyway, Jiraiya did the same thing with Konan, and, according to the rest of the Jiraiya supporters will have Gamabunta backing him with his own water bullets and oil variants.

Destroying the leg doesn't stop him from blasting water bullets, but Gama's mobility and usefulness are limited in that case.

He's so giant I don't really find his mobility relevant, and his water bullets can blast basically any area he chooses without being able to move. Assuming Gaara's sand is strong enough, when it was unable to crush his tongue of course.

Not sure where you're getting the facts about the senbon. You might want to read Chapter 377 again. Pain's panda summon stopped them and they barely made it a few inches into the summon-far from being "ripped through". At any rate, how can you compare the panda summon to Gaara's ultimate defense?

Because it is a piercing effect and I don't see Gaara's sand stopping it. I wouldn't underestimate Pain's summons, but one thing you're definitely underestimating is the size of said senbon. Each are easilly as long as someone's arm.

The statement about Jiraiya's rasengans being much stronger than Naruto's is just pure fantasy and character favoritism-there is absolutely no manga evidence for this. Check out what Naruto could do against Muu if you don't believe me-and yes Naruto can use the Cho Odama Rasengan-he's used it against the Kyuubi and Madara.

He's never used to the level Jiraiya should be able to use it. He's used his sage enhanced Odama rasengan. The most powerful attack we've seen from Jiraiya is his ultra giant Rasengan and I highly highly doubt Naruto would have ever implied a massive attack like that unable to break through. As I said, it's Naruto; he's Gaara's "fanboy"

I thought that you would naturally make the connection that Naruto didn't believe his rasengans could work against Gaara when he just got done fighting a battle in which his most powerful rasengan variant failed to work on his opponent and then Naruto said he thought the guy with the strongest shield was not his opponent (3rd Raikage) but Gaara. I'm not saying that Naruto is an analytical genius, but it can be inferred from his statement that Gaara's sand shield>Naruto's rasengans which are>Jiraiya's rasengans.

The author's words aren't being placed in the characters, if an idiot kid were to say that, according to you it's still "inferred". This isn't true, he hyping up his friend as I said. Naruto in no way would ever deny his Rasenshuriken's ability to blast through Gaara's sand and kill him.

Lake sized water bullets...not even close. Also, as I stated before I think there was just as much if not more force behind C3 and Joki Boi than the bullets.

The summons were towering over forests, I think it easily qualifies.

[Godaime Kazekage]

Yeah, I reread the fight between Jiraiya and Pain and saw that he used the oil against Konan-I completely forgot about that, sorry to have put a false fact about Jiraiya's useage of oil in the debate I don't think it's unreasonable that Jiraiya would use the oil against Gaara. This however is again made useless by the fact that it won't be able to hit Gaara in the air, as I doubt Gamabunta can jump as high as Gaara can fly and even if he can all Gaara has to do is dodge a straight arc of oil-the only thing Gama and Jiraiya have been shown using. Gaara has the speed to do this too-he can keep up w/ Onoki and RM Naruto when flying and he also made the statement that he could fly to turtle island faster than Onoki who could move a the same speed as Deidara in the air (yes this is a statement and not actually shown, but I'm putting it out there because he was at least shown moving as fast as Onoki and Naruto btw battlefields).

This raises another point-Gaara can just fly up high into the air and rain down boulder sized sand hail on Jiraiya and the toads-what can Jiraiya do to counter this?

You keep bringing up this point about the tongue when it was clear Gaara never attempted to crush it-his target was Naruto, the coffin never formed, the initial waves were just blocked by the tongue. And again current Gaara is much stronger than PTS Gaara-has been commented on in the Manga by many characters. I find it easy for Gaara to bury Gama in the desert and even if not, water bullets aren't gonna break Gaara's defense and Gama can't use an infinite amount of them.

Kunai and shuriken have piercing effects-do you not see Gaara's sand stopping those? Piercing type attacks are not "super effective" against Gaara-people only say this because Chidori, the ultimate type of penetrating attack (unless you count Nukite which is just a variation of Chidori) got through PTS Gaara's sand. And again, where are you getting the facts about the senbon being arm length? This is just not true...Still can't believe you're actually trying to argue the senbon can get through Gaara's sand...

You wrote that Naruto's never been able to use Rasengan at the level Jiraiya should be able to use it. As I've been trying to tell you, you can't use assumptions in a debate, you have to use facts. You just say that Jiraiya's rasengan is stronger than Naruto's because it's convenient for your arguments, even though this has never been shown in the manga. And I think you're getting confused on terminology-Jiraiya's ultra rasengan is the same thing as Naruto's sage enhanced Rasengan-they have the same name in the original Japanese and are the same size. Check the wiki or read the chapters they use them in if you don't believe me.

And again, you just disregard what I wrote and play it off as Naruto being a "fanboy". I find it funny that you say Naruto thinks that his Rasenshuriken would rip through Gaara's sand when Naruto just said that Gaara has a stronger shield than Raikage who his Rasenshuriken was ineffective against. I guess you know Naruto better than he knows himself.

Maybe you should reread Storm Fight (Chapter 135) and check the size of the water bullets-or I don't know, go to an actual lake and check how big it is. Just another instance where you massively exaggerate Gama and Jiraiya's abilities.

Finally, this whole time we've been focusing on Gaara's defense (which Jiraiya cannot break through unless he manages to hit him with oil). What about Jiraiya? Jiraiya has no speed feats to suggest him escaping Gaara's sand, which would crush him to death.

[TheBlackChidori]

Originally Posted by Gamaran

Deidara's speed at best is around subsonic. He should be relatively faster while in flight, but the problem is that he wasn't very maneuverable while in the air. You have to consider that factor, TBC.

True. We don't have much to go by but we know Deidara is the best in the air. The fact that Kakashi couldn't hit him accurately with Kamui should gain some merit, but that was when he wasn't so skilled with Kamui.

But either way, we can both agree that Deidara would be able to maneuver better than Gamabunta in the air, being that Gama is just jumping.

Originally Posted by Gaia

Water Bullets were comparative to the wind bullets which in fact have easilly blasted through forests. Also, as they run they effortlessly crush them. I wonder what could be said for their attacks that actually shown for ripping through them even easier.

In case you weren't aware(which after reading your posts I can basically confirm that you weren't), Gamabunta shot 2 water bullets at more than 3 of Shukaku's at the same time to counter them.

Actually, he shot 2 water bullets to counter about 4+ of Shukaku's. So Water Bullets are more powerful than Shukaku's Wind Bullets.
Er...yes they are, this was already established in the chapter Naruto reflected all of their bijuu dama.

How is that related or even relevant? 2 Water Bullets countered 4 of Shukaku's, they are stronger or regardless are easily compared. As seen with the second Mizukage, water is already Gaara's weakness, he broke out of Gaara's sand by soaking it. This time cannons of water will be smashing into Gaara's defenses, I'm quite confident the water part of it isn't needed at all.

Chapter 135 Pages 12-14.

Shukaku shoots out 5 wind bullets, and destroys 4 of them. But it doesn't matter since one broke through and hit Gamabunta anyway. A single water bullet seems to be stronger than a single wind bullet, but that doesn't matter when Shukaku can shoot out 5 to Gamabunta's 2. Not to mention, Gamabunta has a low chakra supply, at least much lower than the Shukaku. He could just spam wind bullets all day long and Gamabunta couldn't do anything about it. If I recall, Gamabunta does run out of chakra relatively quick in that fight, and they resort to waking up Gaara to end the transformation... thanks to Naruto transforming Gama into the Fox to get close enough.

Uh..Gaara tried to use sand coffin on Naruto and Gamabunta's tongue protected him. Kimimaro was still crushed by it, he survived it easily of course but keep in mind Sand Coffin wasn't even able to crush on Gamabunta's tongue because it was so durable. What say you about the entire boss summon?

That was hardly Gaara's strongest sand attack. It was a bit of sand that trapped Naruto's leg. For that matter, Gamabunta couldn't even free him from the sand. Naruto had to borrow some of the Kyuubi's chakra. And most importantly of all, Gaara wasn't trying to crush Gamabunta's tongue, he was going for Naruto and Gama reacted to block the sand.

Keep in mind, this is Gamabunta at full power. But in that fight, he was fighting the weakest Gaara we've seen on the series. He showed a power boost in his return against Kimmimaro, another during his fight against Deidara, and another one against the Kage. Current Gaara's sand was enough to prevent the 4th kazekage's gold dust from breaking through his shield, so yeah.

For that matter, Gaara was worn out in his fight against Naruto. He had already taken a Chidori through the chest, and several more while fighting CS1 Sasuke.

Going to remind you, wind balls* and that he did spit out more than one. 2 Water Bullets trumped over 4 Wind Bullets.

Going to remind you.. It doesn't matter if he took out 4, he was unable to take out 5. If he was capable of besting Shukaku in a "Shoot-Off" he would have taken out all 5 and not gotten hit by the stray he couldn't take out. And it isn't even a matter of overpowering the 4 that he did manage to block. They just canceled eachother out and exploded in mid-air before it could reach Gamabunta in the air. That's not trumping anything.

Trumping his wind bullets would signify that Gamabunta was able to hit Shukaku with his, not the other way around.

[Gaia]

Originally Posted by Godaime Kazekage

Yeah, I reread the fight between Jiraiya and Pain and saw that he used the oil against Konan-I completely forgot about that, sorry to have put a false fact about Jiraiya's useage of oil in the debate I don't think it's unreasonable that Jiraiya would use the oil against Gaara. This however is again made useless by the fact that it won't be able to hit Gaara in the air, as I doubt Gamabunta can jump as high as Gaara can fly and even if he can all Gaara has to do is dodge a straight arc of oil-the only thing Gama and Jiraiya have been shown using. Gaara has the speed to do this too-he can keep up w/ Onoki and RM Naruto when flying and he also made the statement that he could fly to turtle island faster than Onoki who could move a the same speed as Deidara in the air (yes this is a statement and not actually shown, but I'm putting it out there because he was at least shown moving as fast as Onoki and Naruto btw battlefields).

This raises another point-Gaara can just fly up high into the air and rain down boulder sized sand hail on Jiraiya and the toads-what can Jiraiya do to counter this?

Considering Gamabunta and any of the other summon's gigantic size I don't see a problem reaching Gaara..

You keep bringing up this point about the tongue when it was clear Gaara never attempted to crush it-his target was Naruto, the coffin never formed, the initial waves were just blocked by the tongue. And again current Gaara is much stronger than PTS Gaara-has been commented on in the Manga by many characters. I find it easy for Gaara to bury Gama in the desert and even if not, water bullets aren't gonna break Gaara's defense and Gama can't use an infinite amount of them.

It doesn't matter, if Gaara is trying to crush Naruto and a tongue is placed in Naruto's stead, Gaara is still going to crush it. Gamabunta's tongue being able to deflect Gaara's sand says quite a bit, actually.

You're severely underestimating the size of Gamabunta who easily towers over forests. You think that Gaara will be able to easily cover the entirety of Gamabunta in sand while he can just jump away. He's the same as a frog except to a giant scale. He jumps once and he's in space.

Kunai and shuriken have piercing effects-do you not see Gaara's sand stopping those? Piercing type attacks are not "super effective" against Gaara-people only say this because Chidori, the ultimate type of penetrating attack (unless you count Nukite which is just a variation of Chidori) got through PTS Gaara's sand. And again, where are you getting the facts about the senbon being arm length? This is just not true...Still can't believe you're actually trying to argue the senbon can get through Gaara's sand...

Kunai and Shuriken are much different than high powered senbon that is one of Jiraiya's fastest and most powerful attacks stated by Jiraiya himself. They are arms length, please re-read the page in which they were used if you don't think I'm correct. I'm not saying any regular old senbon will break through, I'm saying Sage Enhanced Super Powered Senbon will be able to break through because they've shown enough power and impressiveness to be able to.

You wrote that Naruto's never been able to use Rasengan at the level Jiraiya should be able to use it. As I've been trying to tell you, you can't use assumptions in a debate, you have to use facts. You just say that Jiraiya's rasengan is stronger than Naruto's because it's convenient for your arguments, even though this has never been shown in the manga. And I think you're getting confused on terminology-Jiraiya's ultra rasengan is the same thing as Naruto's sage enhanced Rasengan-they have the same name in the original Japanese and are the same size. Check the wiki or read the chapters they use them in if you don't believe me.

Jiraiya has been using Rasengan and Sage Mode years longer than Naruto and is much more skilled at it. It's natural his rasengan is stronger, we haven't seen the power of either of their versions of this technique. IIRC the databook says it can hollow out a mountain so I wouldn't be calling Jiraiya's attacks weaker than Naruto's in this case. It's not really an assumption when the databook says it.

And again, you just disregard what I wrote and play it off as Naruto being a "fanboy". I find it funny that you say Naruto thinks that his Rasenshuriken would rip through Gaara's sand when Naruto just said that Gaara has a stronger shield than Raikage who his Rasenshuriken was ineffective against. I guess you know Naruto better than he knows himself.

Yes, in a cheery, friendly, exclaiming mood speaking to his friend. "Well, Raikage thinks he has the strongest shield but I really think Gaara does!" Has Naruto been there to witness Gaara's shield? Does Naruto know its capabilities? When was the last time Naruto has seen Gaara's shield in action? Yeah, it's pretty obvious the Rasenshuriken would destroy Gaara.

Maybe you should reread Storm Fight (Chapter 135) and check the size of the water bullets-or I don't know, go to an actual lake and check how big it is. Just another instance where you massively exaggerate Gama and Jiraiya's abilities.

Not exaggerating, I've read this chapter plenty, it's you who doesn't seem to understand the size of the summons in the first place.

Finally, this whole time we've been focusing on Gaara's defense (which Jiraiya cannot break through unless he manages to hit him with oil). What about Jiraiya? Jiraiya has no speed feats to suggest him escaping Gaara's sand, which would crush him to death.

Er..yes he does, he's displayed oodles of these throughout the Pain fight and otherwise. He should have no problem avoiding any of Gaara's sand at all, but this is if he isn't accompanied by a giant boss summon to do the maneuvering for him, or two or three.

Originally Posted by TheBlackChidori

Chapter 135 Pages 12-14.

Shukaku shoots out 5 wind bullets, and destroys 4 of them. But it doesn't matter since one broke through and hit Gamabunta anyway. A single water bullet seems to be stronger than a single wind bullet, but that doesn't matter when Shukaku can shoot out 5 to Gamabunta's 2. Not to mention, Gamabunta has a low chakra supply, at least much lower than the Shukaku. He could just spam wind bullets all day long and Gamabunta couldn't do anything about it. If I recall, Gamabunta does run out of chakra relatively quick in that fight, and they resort to waking up Gaara to end the transformation... thanks to Naruto transforming Gama into the Fox to get close enough.

So what? Gamabunta's water bullets are stronger than Shukaku's wind bullets--fact. You admit it yourself. This isn't Shukaku vs Gamabunta, so stating his chakra supply and how Shukaku is individually superior is completely irrelevant, and seems to drift from the main topic at hand which is Gaara's ability to do anything against these.

That was hardly Gaara's strongest sand attack. It was a bit of sand that trapped Naruto's leg. For that matter, Gamabunta couldn't even free him from the sand. Naruto had to borrow some of the Kyuubi's chakra. And most importantly of all, Gaara wasn't trying to crush Gamabunta's tongue, he was going for Naruto and Gama reacted to block the sand.

Which he managed to do easily, so..

Keep in mind, this is Gamabunta at full power. But in that fight, he was fighting the weakest Gaara we've seen on the series. He showed a power boost in his return against Kimmimaro, another during his fight against Deidara, and another one against the Kage. Current Gaara's sand was enough to prevent the 4th kazekage's gold dust from breaking through his shield, so yeah.

Weakest Gaara we've seen? I don't find that Gaara to be the weakest Gaara, Shukaku's quite strong.

I don't exactly see said gold dust being much stronger than an Ultra Giant Rasengan for that matter, either.

For that matter, Gaara was worn out in his fight against Naruto. He had already taken a Chidori through the chest, and several more while fighting CS1 Sasuke.

Gaara has to have ridiculous durability to survive a chidori through his chest. The only time I've seen someone take a chidori through the chest and survive was when Naruto regenerated from it going all the way through his body. Mind a scan?

Going to remind you.. It doesn't matter if he took out 4, he was unable to take out 5. If he was capable of besting Shukaku in a "Shoot-Off" he would have taken out all 5 and not gotten hit by the stray he couldn't take out. And it isn't even a matter of overpowering the 4 that he did manage to block. They just canceled eachother out and exploded in mid-air before it could reach Gamabunta in the air. That's not trumping anything.

Again, he isn't facing Shukaku in a "shoot-off", this is Gaara vs Jiraiya, not Shukaku's bullets vs Gamabunta's bullets. It's irrelevant if Shukaku could have trumped Gamabunta in that case, it doesn't have anything to do with Gaara's ability to do so, you seem to be avoiding that bit for a reason.

Trumping his wind bullets would signify that Gamabunta was able to hit Shukaku with his, not the other way around.

That's strange, because it seems two water bullets were individually stronger than four of Shukaku's. I find the water bullets to trump his quite nicely. Keeping in mind this isn't Shukaku vs Gamabunta, the fact that a single of Shukaku's wind bullets completely and utterly blasted through an entire forest, it says quite a bit for the water bullets power.

[Godaime Kazekage]

First off I want to address your continuous exaggeration of Gamabunta's size and the size of his techniques-it's making it really hard for me to take you seriously when you say things like "Gamabunta jumps once and he's in space". Here are some facts for you: Gamabunta is smaller than the Hokage Office (for reference: Chapter 404, about page 4). His water bullets are a fraction of his size as well. Do you still think the bullets are lake sized and that he can jump to an altitude Gaara could reach?

Gaara on the other hand can control enough sand to cover all of Sunagakure (for reference: Chapter 248, about page 12) Do you really think Jiraiya and company can escape a Sand Burial when he uses that much sand. If you're gonna say Bunta jumps I'll remind you about that thing called gravity.

I've already explained the tongue thing to you, but I'll say it again-Gaara only crushes things after he forms the coffin around something (an exception is Deidara's arm, but it was still surrounded by sand). He just sent two small waves at Naruto which the tongue got in the way of. And again current Gaara is much stronger than PTS Gaara.

Jiraiya never stated that his senbon were one of his most powerful attacks-just that they were the fastest and covered the most range. Where is this power and impressiveness you are talking about?? They only made it a few inches into the panda which has no hype for being a powerful defense and again the senbon are NOT arm length. I think you are mistaking the movement lines for the senbon.

The databook also says that Haku moves at lightspeed in the mirrors and Sakura has always been at the same level or better than Naruto in overall stats. The databook was purely made for fan service and naming jutsus, no serious debater uses it in a debate-stick to the primary canon i.e. the manga. Even if you insist on the Rasengan's power from the databook it's been shown in the manga that there are jutsus that can survive mountain busting attacks (Susano'o for example). Also Deidara's C3 would be able to take out a mountain imo and Gaara's desert (not gourd) sand defended against that.

Yes, Naruto hasn't seen it in a while, but you get a general sense of the author's intentions when he makes a statement like that and it doesn't make any sense for Naruto to say Gaara's shield is stronger when he thinks he'd easily be able to rip through it with Rasenshuriken. Maybe the Rasenshuriken destroying it is obvious to you, but it definitely isn't to the rest of us when Gaara's sand keeps being described as the Ultimate Defense and Naruto's Rasenshuriken keeps failing against opponents.

Please show me these speed feats-because I'm not seeing them. Gaara's sand moved fast enough to block the kick of V2 Raikage the instant before it hit Sasuke. It has also blocked Amaterasu. When has Jiraiya demonstrated anywhere near this level of speed?

Gaara summons a huge amount of sand and crushes Jiraiya and toads with Sand Waterfall Imperial Funeral, Jiraiya has no defense against this. If by some miracle Jiraiya survives then Gaara's gourd sand speed blitzes Jiraiya and crushes him.

[Gaia]

Originally Posted by Godaime Kazekage

First off I want to address your continuous exaggeration of Gamabunta's size and the size of his techniques-it's making it really hard for me to take you seriously when you say things like "Gamabunta jumps once and he's in space". Here are some facts for you: Gamabunta is smaller than the Hokage Office (for reference: Chapter 404, about page 4). His water bullets are a fraction of his size as well. Do you still think the bullets are lake sized and that he can jump to an altitude Gaara could reach?

That was not meant to be taken seriously mind you, however I guess even the slightest exaggerations in order to make a point are used against me to give the opposition anything to stand on around here. Gamabunta is huge--as is the Hokage Office--your comparison didn't really help you out here.

Yes I do believe, Gamabunta, being a frog and all, can easily jump this high. His battle with Shukaku was literally destroying an entire forest as they were being hit around.

Gaara on the other hand can control enough sand to cover all of Sunagakure (for reference: Chapter 248, about page 12) Do you really think Jiraiya and company can escape a Sand Burial when he uses that much sand. If you're gonna say Bunta jumps I'll remind you about that thing called gravity.

Definitely. They should have practically no trouble jumping and avoiding things like this. Jiraiya can hell, if need be do exactly what Guy did and summon a frog in midair to give more of a boost to jump.

I've already explained the tongue thing to you, but I'll say it again-Gaara only crushes things after he forms the coffin around something (an exception is Deidara's arm, but it was still surrounded by sand). He just sent two small waves at Naruto which the tongue got in the way of. And again current Gaara is much stronger than PTS Gaara.

Yet Naruto's nine-tails chakra still managed to break him out of the sand coffin, I'm not sure which is worse for Gaara.

Jiraiya never stated that his senbon were one of his most powerful attacks-just that they were the fastest and covered the most range. Where is this power and impressiveness you are talking about?? They only made it a few inches into the panda which has no hype for being a powerful defense and again the senbon are NOT arm length. I think you are mistaking the movement lines for the senbon.

I'm not mistaking movement lines, the panda is huge, easily 5 times the size of Pain. Page 16 on 377, IIRC. I'm staring at it right now. The panda is summoned and it's pierced with the senbon. If you didn't notice, they're each about halfway in and the panda is gigantic. Again, look at Pain. Look at Jiraiya. Look at the panda. Look at the senbon, impaled inside said panda.

Allow me to give you a science lesson, the senbon are naturally symmetrical horizontally. If it gets larger on one end, then meets the middle, then it gets smaller to a point. Common sense. They never get "smaller" when impaled in said panda. They are each in about half way, tearing through pure stone. Now I don't know how you interpret this since you consider Pain's defensive summon weak(and from the looks of it, his only defensive summon), but this is Pain we're talking about here. You're underrating Sage Enhanced needle senbon, it's sage mode for a reason, and quote from Jiraiya one of his "fastest attacks" for a reason.

And please re-read the above paragraph while looking at the page. They are easily arms length.

The databook also says that Haku moves at lightspeed in the mirrors and Sakura has always been at the same level or better than Naruto in overall stats. The databook was purely made for fan service and naming jutsus, no serious debater uses it in a debate-stick to the primary canon i.e. the manga. Even if you insist on the Rasengan's power from the databook it's been shown in the manga that there are jutsus that can survive mountain busting attacks (Susano'o for example). Also Deidara's C3 would be able to take out a mountain imo and Gaara's desert (not gourd) sand defended against that.

But it is canon, I thought the author filled in the databook? What's said in here should be taken as fact, and I'm sure Haku being lightspeed was either a hyperbole or was referring to how he reflects within his mirrors and appears in all of them at once, IE, lightspeed for obvious reasons.

I don't doubt Susano'o's ability to stop a mountain busting attack but this doesn't discredit Ultra Giant Rasengan's ability to do so..?

Yes, Naruto hasn't seen it in a while, but you get a general sense of the author's intentions when he makes a statement like that and it doesn't make any sense for Naruto to say Gaara's shield is stronger when he thinks he'd easily be able to rip through it with Rasenshuriken. Maybe the Rasenshuriken destroying it is obvious to you, but it definitely isn't to the rest of us when Gaara's sand keeps being described as the Ultimate Defense and Naruto's Rasenshuriken keeps failing against opponents.

But...above you're telling me to ignore the databook, something written by the author, and now you're acting like his word is God and listen to it 100%, and what his intentions were indirectly and through a character who hasn't seen said "ultimate shield" since Part 1?

Please show me these speed feats-because I'm not seeing them. Gaara's sand moved fast enough to block the kick of V2 Raikage the instant before it hit Sasuke. It has also blocked Amaterasu. When has Jiraiya demonstrated anywhere near this level of speed?

Fine, since I brought up the page to find the panda I guess I can go on. Raikage was already in mid-air and falling onto Sasuke for that matter; it's not like Gaara's sand is as fast as the Raikage, but regardless.

First are the first few pages on chapter 378 when Jiraiya retreats to the pipes. The second is moments before he used the Kebari Senbon(links above) when he jumped off the giant building and used Ultra Giant Rasengan in literally no time at all. Third is as he just enters Sage Mode(few pages before the rasengan) when he stopped Pain's attempt at 'blitzing' him and reacted and kicked him in the face. I could get more, I'm sure there are more like in a moment(after the pipes) as him and his plan when he proceeds to takes the three Pain's assault on.

Well I think you get the point by those at least, and I haven't seen Gaara's sand on par with this ever, or even chjaracters like the Raikage fail to amount. Gaara's sand for one was inable to keep up with Joki Boi.

Gaara summons a huge amount of sand and crushes Jiraiya and toads with Sand Waterfall Imperial Funeral, Jiraiya has no defense against this. If by some miracle Jiraiya survives then Gaara's gourd sand speed blitzes Jiraiya and crushes him.

Or, Jiraiya's giant summons can easily jump to avoid along with his superior speed. I fail to see how Gaara will survive if they all either spit oil at him or blast through his sand with the attacks powerful enough to do so.

Also, if you want evidence then please look back to when Naruto first used Rasengan(around 170 I guess?) and when Naruto first used Odama Rasengan. Regular rasengan do this much damage and create huge craters in the ground from the impact, I'm not using any assumptions or anything from the databook(although I heavily disagree with your little double standard there); imagine a rasengan 100 times that size.

[TheBlackChidori]

Weakest Gaara we've seen? I don't find that Gaara to be the weakest Gaara, Shukaku's quite strong.

I don't exactly see said gold dust being much stronger than an Ultra Giant Rasengan for that matter, either.

Gaara has to have ridiculous durability to survive a chidori through his chest. The only time I've seen someone take a chidori through the chest and survive was when Naruto regenerated from it going all the way through his body. Mind a scan?

Again, he isn't facing Shukaku in a "shoot-off", this is Gaara vs Jiraiya, not Shukaku's bullets vs Gamabunta's bullets. It's irrelevant if Shukaku could have trumped Gamabunta in that case, it doesn't have anything to do with Gaara's ability to do so, you seem to be avoiding that bit for a reason.

That's strange, because it seems two water bullets were individually stronger than four of Shukaku's. I find the water bullets to trump his quite nicely. Keeping in mind this isn't Shukaku vs Gamabunta, the fact that a single of Shukaku's wind bullets completely and utterly blasted through an entire forest, it says quite a bit for the water bullets power.


Definitely the weakest Gaara. He was blitzed by a Base-Speed Sasuke at that time. And as Godaime has pointed out, he's reacted to both Amaterasu and V2 Raikage. Assuming otherwise would be silly, especially since in Part 2 he had some mastery over his Bijuu. Gaara on the tier list is given the Shukaku as his power boost, much like Kisame is still debated with Samehada despite losing it. So this argument is relevant. Shukaku in a desert > Shukaku in a forest.

He was injured in his chunin exam fight with Sasuke.

Anyway the whole point of this off-topic tangent was to explain that Shukaku is as much a tool of Gaara in this debate as Gamabunta.

Gaara can also manipulate Gold Dust. I feel if he can block V2 kicks and Ammy, he can block any of Jiraiya's Rasengan's with a combination of Gold Dust, his sand, Shukaku's Shield or Mom's shield, not to mention is own shell of sand around him and sand armor on top of that. Not overkill to you?

[Godaime Kazekage]

The reason I bring this up is you keep making exaggerations and seem to take these exaggerations as fact. The Hokage office isn't that big-certainly not the size of a lake and you say that Bunta's bullets are lake sized. And again you exaggerate how far Bunta can jump-Gaara can literally fly meaning he can reach thousands of feet in elevation as long as he still has air to breathe and is not too cold-at any rate way above where Bunta can reach.

You missed the whole point of what I said about the desert sand-Bunta can jump but unlike Gaara he can't levitate meaning he will fall back to the Earth and Gaara's sand will catch him. And again look at the pages I posted to see the difference in size. Bunta is smaller than the Hokage office, one building, Gaara manipulated enough sand to dwarf an entire village. There is no where for them to run from an attack that massive.

Do you really think a frog jumping off of another frog would work the same as a gated Guy jumping off of his summon?

Looking over the page I can see your point about the senbon being arm's length. I was probably influenced into thinking they were smaller because they are much smaller in the anime and it's hard to tell their size unless you compare the size of the panda to Pain-good job pointing that out. Regardless, I think that we can also agree on the fact that the senbon weren't anywhere close to getting through Pain's summon which has no hype for being powerful besides the fact that Pain used it. Jiraiya even makes the statement that the best way to stop the senbon is to use a shield. Why would he say that if the shield hyped to be the strongest multiple times throughout the series couldn't stop it? I don't think there are any people on this forum besides you and maybe some Jiraiya fanatics that seriously think Jiraiya's senbon could get through Gaara's shield.

Kishi does write the databooks, but there are facts in there that are blatantly wrong. For example, he states in a databook that Haku can move between his mirrors at the speed of light, which is just plain not true. Early PTS Sasuke was able to track his movements with the two tomoe sharingan and get in his way before he attacked Naruto, if you take the databook as canon than early PTS Sasuke>lightspeed. Kishi writes the databooks for fan service-most people on the forums agree not to use what's in them in debates. Also, I wasn't saying that Susano'o discredits the Rasengan's mountain busting just that Gaara's best sand would be able to withstand a similar attack.

What I've been trying to say about Naruto's statement this entire time is that it makes absolutely no sense for Naruto to state that Gaara has a stronger shield than the 3rd Raikage if he's completely confident that he could easily blow Gaara away when he failed against Raikage. Also there is a reason Kishi keeps describing Gaara's sand as the "ultimate defense" and characters keep commenting on how good it is. That reason is...it is really strong!! Gaara is hyped to have the strongest defense in the 'verse, Jiraiya istn't anywhere near the most powerful offensive character.

Raikage was in the middle of an attack in his V2 state-he wasn't just "falling".
Your speed feats for Jiraiya don't match up with what Gaara's sand has achieved at all-they are all way slower.
When Jiraiya retreats to the pipes all he's doing is running-it doesn't show anyone chasing him or him dodging anything, not sure how this applies. His using the Giant Rasengan in "no time at all" was done over four panels and was reacted to and stopped by a Pain. He stopped Pain's attempt at blitzing him? Wow great! Everyone knows how fast the Human Path is! When have any of the Pains beside the Asura path shown anything particularly fast? As to why Gaara's sand couldn't catch Joki Boi-he was using normal desert sand not his gourd sand, he had already expended a lot of chakra that day and was tired (this was the middle of his third fight) and Joki Boi is fast-nobody else was shown to be capable of reacting to it/catching it and it's the ultimate technique of the 2nd Miz.

Again, it's hard for me to take you seriously when you say things like Raikage fails to measure up compared to the "feats" of speed Jiraiya has shown-now that's just laughable.

Once again there's the problem the toads have of avoiding the massive amount of sand Gaara can control and being able to hit him with oil if they do (which they can't). Yes, the Rasengan has been shown to put craters in the ground. Regular earth=/= ultimate defense.

[TheBlackChidori]

^

I don't think anyone on this forum will say that SM Jiraiya is faster than V2 Raikage... At least I hope not.

[Kakashi11]

Originally Posted by TheBlackChidori

^

I don't think anyone on this forum will say that SM Jiraiya is faster than V2 Raikage... At least I hope not.

why Jiraiya was fast enough to blind a pain with his foot while he was runnin really fast

[Kakashi11]

that was a joke

[Gaia]

Originally Posted by Godaime Kazekage

The reason I bring this up is you keep making exaggerations and seem to take these exaggerations as fact. The Hokage office isn't that big-certainly not the size of a lake and you say that Bunta's bullets are lake sized. And again you exaggerate how far Bunta can jump-Gaara can literally fly meaning he can reach thousands of feet in elevation as long as he still has air to breathe and is not too cold-at any rate way above where Bunta can reach.

Gaara will never get the chance to continously fly up out of Bunta's reach or any of the frogs. While taking an onslaught of Jiraiya and his frogs' attacks including but not limited to oil.

You missed the whole point of what I said about the desert sand-Bunta can jump but unlike Gaara he can't levitate meaning he will fall back to the Earth and Gaara's sand will catch him. And again look at the pages I posted to see the difference in size. Bunta is smaller than the Hokage office, one building, Gaara manipulated enough sand to dwarf an entire village. There is no where for them to run from an attack that massive.

If Gaara tries to cover him in a tsunami of sand, Gamabunta can simply jump over it. Keep in mind that frogs aren't humans? A ninja human easily has to capability to jump over buildings that size. While he is in the air Gaara will be blasted by a barrage of water bullets and/or oil.

Do you really think a frog jumping off of another frog would work the same as a gated Guy jumping off of his summon?

Probably. as long as they have footing, however I'm talking about Jiraiya himself and sure if you want to call Jiraiya a frog.

Looking over the page I can see your point about the senbon being arm's length. I was probably influenced into thinking they were smaller because they are much smaller in the anime and it's hard to tell their size unless you compare the size of the panda to Pain-good job pointing that out. Regardless, I think that we can also agree on the fact that the senbon weren't anywhere close to getting through Pain's summon which has no hype for being powerful besides the fact that Pain used it. Jiraiya even makes the statement that the best way to stop the senbon is to use a shield. Why would he say that if the shield hyped to be the strongest multiple times throughout the series couldn't stop it? I don't think there are any people on this forum besides you and maybe some Jiraiya fanatics that seriously think Jiraiya's senbon could get through Gaara's shield.

As I said, Pain hasn't used any other defensive summon, and if it was required, I doubt that the rinnegan, the most powerful doujutsu, would be lacking in the defense department. There's the fact that it's pure stone, and the fact that said senbon are sage enhanced that I'm not doubting its power or ability to rip through Gaara's sand.

Kishi does write the databooks, but there are facts in there that are blatantly wrong. For example, he states in a databook that Haku can move between his mirrors at the speed of light, which is just plain not true. Early PTS Sasuke was able to track his movements with the two tomoe sharingan and get in his way before he attacked Naruto, if you take the databook as canon than early PTS Sasuke>lightspeed. Kishi writes the databooks for fan service-most people on the forums agree not to use what's in them in debates. Also, I wasn't saying that Susano'o discredits the Rasengan's mountain busting just that Gaara's best sand would be able to withstand a similar attack.

So one thing being incorrect in the databook means the entire thing is untrue? What would you say of characters background stories, that they're untrue simply because one entry in the databook is false? Or a hyperbole? If something is explicitly stated to be able to hollow a mountain, and the feats shown in-manga do nothing but support that, I think it's easily believable and logical to accept it..unless you're arguing against that feat of course.^^

What I've been trying to say about Naruto's statement this entire time is that it makes absolutely no sense for Naruto to state that Gaara has a stronger shield than the 3rd Raikage if he's completely confident that he could easily blow Gaara away when he failed against Raikage. Also there is a reason Kishi keeps describing Gaara's sand as the "ultimate defense" and characters keep commenting on how good it is. That reason is...it is really strong!! Gaara is hyped to have the strongest defense in the 'verse, Jiraiya istn't anywhere near the most powerful offensive character.

He may be confident, he might not be, but Naruto hasn't seen him since part 1. So how confident or what he thinks is right is irrelevant, Gaara's part 1 sand that Lee was punching through can't be broken by a Rasenshuriken?

Raikage was in the middle of an attack in his V2 state-he wasn't just "falling".
Your speed feats for Jiraiya don't match up with what Gaara's sand has achieved at all-they are all way slower.
When Jiraiya retreats to the pipes all he's doing is running-it doesn't show anyone chasing him or him dodging anything, not sure how this applies.

Then show me the feats of his sand exceeding his speed. The pipes was where he ran into the pipes, he disappeared and was further down the pipes than Pain could detect.

His using the Giant Rasengan in "no time at all" was done over four panels and was reacted to and stopped by a Pain.

A pain who also intercepted the Rasenshuriken--arguably the fastest thrown attack. It wasn't done over 4 panels, Jiraiya dropped his sandal, said a sentence out loud, then lunged. His lunge and the Rasengan were formed near instantaneously and he leapt the entire distance. After that all happened his sandal proceeded to hit the ground, this is one page where the excuse "you can't tell time in panels" doesn't work out.

He stopped Pain's attempt at blitzing him? Wow great! Everyone knows how fast the Human Path is! When have any of the Pains beside the Asura path shown anything particularly fast? As to why Gaara's sand couldn't catch Joki Boi-he was using normal desert sand not his gourd sand, he had already expended a lot of chakra that day and was tired (this was the middle of his third fight) and Joki Boi is fast-nobody else was shown to be capable of reacting to it/catching it and it's the ultimate technique of the 2nd Miz.

Yes, the human realm is quite fast, able to intercept 4 Jonin and Chunin level sensors before they realized what happened. The absorption path intercepted multiple rasenshuriken, as did the main God pain. Who also kept up with Naruto in Sage Mode(who easily easily outsped the Asura path who you claimed to be ever so fast) in taijutsu and all. The hell path(who revives the other paths) managed to also dodge the Rasenshuriken. I believe that's all.

Again, it's hard for me to take you seriously when you say things like Raikage fails to measure up compared to the "feats" of speed Jiraiya has shown-now that's just laughable.

Then what are his that surpass the ones Jiraiya has displayed that are quite incredible IMO?

Once again there's the problem the toads have of avoiding the massive amount of sand Gaara can control and being able to hit him with oil if they do (which they can't). Yes, the Rasengan has been shown to put craters in the ground. Regular earth=/= ultimate defense.

The craters they place into the ground are due to the impact on the target, ie the ability to hollow out a mountain or the similarity to being hit by a meteorite upon impact. Not because the rasengan itself smashes into the ground, but because of its compression. A rasengan 100 times the size that easily replicated that feat is only so powerful that you claim. And considering characters as weak as the two tails to name one's bijuu dama can destroy mountains? It isn't that farfetched.

Originally Posted by TheBlackChidori

Definitely the weakest Gaara. He was blitzed by a Base-Speed Sasuke at that time. And as Godaime has pointed out, he's reacted to both Amaterasu and V2 Raikage.

When has he reacted to Amaterasu? The only time he reacted to Raikage was when he was in mid-kick as well but to each his own.

Assuming otherwise would be silly, especially since in Part 2 he had some mastery over his Bijuu. Gaara on the tier list is given the Shukaku as his power boost, much like Kisame is still debated with Samehada despite losing it. So this argument is relevant. Shukaku in a desert > Shukaku in a forest.

I agree, however especially considering the Gaara who just lost his shukaku. I'd find it somewhat debatable that the Part 2 Gaara who had lost shukaku winning against the Gaara from Part 1 due to it being, Shukaku in the first place.

He was injured in his chunin exam fight with Sasuke.

That doesn't equal the "took a chidori through the chest" and acting as if it's a gigantic game changer that you had previously exaggerated.

Anyway the whole point of this off-topic tangent was to explain that Shukaku is as much a tool of Gaara in this debate as Gamabunta.

I don't get what you're trying to say, regardless Jiraiya does have Gamabunta here along with two other summons of similar size.

Gaara can also manipulate Gold Dust. I feel if he can block V2 kicks and Ammy, he can block any of Jiraiya's Rasengan's with a combination of Gold Dust, his sand, Shukaku's Shield or Mom's shield, not to mention is own shell of sand around him and sand armor on top of that. Not overkill to you?

How does a kick which creates a small crater in the ground amount to a gigantic rasengan that's 100 times the size of a rasengan which made a bigger crater than the Raikage made? He also never blocked Amaterasu, and having the speed to do so either way doesn't equal having durability, Amaterasu doesn't have 'destructive power'.

[Godaime Kazekage]

First off Gaara has a habit of starting battles in the air, so him getting off the ground isn't a problem and again the oil attacks don't move fast enough to hit him.

If you look at the page I told you to that shows Gaara vs Deidara over Suna, all of the sand is in the air, way over the village, Gaara could do something similar and the frogs would be jumping into it. And again-when they fall down from their jump they're trapped.

The only one who has used water bullets and oil is Gamabunta, you can't call it a barrage when none of the other boss summons have used it, and Bunta hasn't been shown to use these fast enough to hit Gaara. And again, water bullets aren't gonna do anything against Gaara's shield.

You're just assuming this is Pain's only defensive summon (could be more that weren't shown), and that it's powerful just because Pain used it...stop ASSUMING. Why is the fact that the summon is rock matter? Lots of things have broken rock in this manga. Also, as you so conveniently ignored, Jiraiya says you need to block the tech, not dodge it-why would he say that if it rips through Gaara's sand which is hyped to be the best defense in the verse? Seriously, I'm telling you that no one here but you thinks the senbon can get through Gaara's shield, make a poll if you don't believe me.

What I'm saying about the databook is that it's not primary canon, it has mistakes, and shouldn't be used in a debate. How do the feats in manga support that? The effects of Jiraiya's rasengan haven't been shown in the manga-unless you're talking about the craters from other characters' rasengans. That being said, I do think it's possible and even likely that the Ultra Rasengan can hollow a mountain-but I don't think it can get through Gaara's sand. As it says in the databook-it hollows out a mountain when it explodes. You yourself said Gaara's sand is perfectly suited for stopping explosions.

Yes, Naruto hasn't seen Gaara's sand in action for a while, but he does know about Gaara's progress in general. He knows he was made Kazekage and his abilities revolve around his strong defense. This is an assumption...sorry , but it is almost certainly true: Team 7 and Team Guy were probably informed about Gaara's battle with Deidara. The sand sibs. did tell Naruto and co. about the Kage Summit and the battle with Sasuke. So even if Naruto hasn't witnessed Gaara's sand first hand, he knows it's progressing. Also, the main point is that Naruto believes Gaara has a stronger shield than Raikage.

Tons of characters in this manga use the poof-now I went somewhere else move-it's not a speed feat. Yes, the rasengan thing is done over four panels from the initial push off to the attack, regardless the important thing is the Pain's speed, which is not that great. Your argument about the Pain's being fast revolves entirely around the speed of the Rasenshuriken, which, while it's certainly not slow, has never been hyped to be incredibly fast. As you said, Hell Path dodged the Rasenshuriken-Konohamaru dodged Hell Path. Your point about the Human path surprising the sensors is irrelevant-it has to do with the fact that they were off guard/not able to sense him, not their relative speeds.

Raikage vs Jiraiya in speed. Once again, another moment where I can guarantee you that no one on the forum agrees with you. But since you asked I shall give you some Raikage speed feats. Chapter 462, pg. 4= Raikage completely dodges Juugo's point blank cannon attack. Chapter 463, pg. 12= Raikage dodges Amaterasu. Chapter 463, pg. 14= Sasuke is unable to keep track of Raikage with his Sharingan. Chapter 542, pg. 13-14=Raikage moves so fast he looks like lightning and he forces Minato to use FTG to evade his attack. Is that enough speed feats for you?

Gaara defended against Amaterasu in Chapter 464 pg.12-could be confusing because in multiple sites what Sasuke says is mistranslated as "I can't believe I had to guard myself with an Enton!"-when it's really "I can't believe you guarded against my Enton!" Also, check out the same chapters pg. 2-3. Even if Raikage's not moving at full speed his leg is centimeters away from Sasuke's Enton before Gaara's sand moves in for the save.

Also, current Gaara is waaaaaaay stronger than the Gaara in the battle w/ Naruto-even without Shukaku.

[TobiramaSenju307]

IMO gaara because he can turn the place into a desert and take flight so he can avoid most of jiraiyas attacks while using sensor sand to detect his arrival. then gaara attacks from all directions and makes jiraiya sink into the ground.

Gaara sand is weak to water.

countered by sand pyramid or just the amount of sand being thrown around with 10 minutes to grind up sand in the ground.

[JLI2infinity]

Wow Gaia and Godaime have been having a FIERCE debate here. Some great points made on both sides, it took me about 20 minutes to read through both pages and I think I've made my decision. I'm going to stick with SM Jiraiya as the better overall character (especially since he's nerfed here) but in the desert Gaara has the advantage and is more likely to win, but on Turtle Island it should be obvious who wins the fight. Even though I think Gaara has the advantage in the first scenario I will still argue for Jiraiya.

Ok the biggest problem I see for Jiraiya is that giant sand wave that Gaara used. That technique could wipe out a lot of the Narutoverse even some high tier fighters, especially since it's waaaay stronger than it was against Kimimaro. My guess is that if ASF Gaara were to use that move it would've been strong enough to crush Kimimaro at this point not just damage his skin and muscle tissue, and this judgment is coming from the increased strength we've seen from Gaara's sand (e.g. being able to stop Raikage's kick). Anyways my solution to this would be a well aimed Goemon. It is a higher level elemental technique and lava is far more dense than even wet sand...a quick google search revealed the estimates that Lava has a density of about 2600 kg / cm^3 while sand is around somewhere from 1400-2000. (Not the most accurate numbers but I think it's a fairly good estimate for the purpose of this debate). Also when lava comes into contact with a large land mass it begins to cool into earth as well all know, this could effectively neutralize the sand wave even if gold is involved (thanks to lava's ridiculous heat).

The next problem I've been seeing is the scaling of sand speed. Gaara's gourd sand is extremely fast. Although I'm almost positive it's nowhere near as fast as V2 Raiton Armor A like many people believe from that attack he intercepted...forcing Sasuke to guard with Enton is a great feat (although again people ignore this was Sasuke after getting his ass kicked by A). I'd say Gaara's gourd sand is about equal to SM Jiraiya's speed, and I mean exactly equal. Kishi basically proved that Gaara's sand wasn't as fast as A when Gaara fought Jouki Boy and it got past his guard. Even if the expansion messed up Gaara's timing, it managed to dodge all of Gaara's sand in that charge and slip into dangerous range, if it can do that I'm sure A could do better. But as for the supplementary sand he controls from the desert, that is in no way fast enough to keep up with SM Jiraiya, we saw Muu and Madara react to and dodge it pretty easily.

Moreover, I think everyone agreed that Jiraiya would use oil on Gaara's sand so add that to Jiraiya's Hair Defense which was already formidable and Jiraiya's got a pretty foolproof way of not getting crushed.

I will admit even though Jiraiya's, Ultra Big Ball Rasengan could hollow out a mountain I don't see it getting past Gaara's new defense. The new sand shield is HUGE and packed with chakra.

Most of my post has been dedicated to how Jiraiya defends against Gaara's abilitities now all of this leaves very little room for Jiraiya to win this fight. My solution is that Jiraiya gets into close range combat with Gaara. That seems to be his best chance with his equal speed, destructive close range moves, and all the techniques of Ma and Pa.

Frog Song is not Ma and Pa's only sound based technique. Frog Screech is extremely useful which is why I don't understand why it gets overlooked so often. If they hit Gaara with that move he gets paralyzed which slows his sand down to the level of his automatic shield and Jiraiya is fast enough to and bypass that. Jiraiya could also use that moment to cover Gaara's gourd sand in oil slowing it even more. After that Jiraiya can just summon the Toad Stomach in that area. I don't see how Gaara can escape from being eaten alive. All his sand from the outside would be useless and all his oiled up gourd sand is useless as well. He has no way to escape.