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Old 02-10-2012, 08:20 PM   #1
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Exclamation Kishi is trickin' us!! The Sage didn't have the Rinnegan!!

This is something that has been bugging me for some time...

Why didn't Kishi show us the Sage's full face?
Maybe it was just Kishi's idea to tease his readers. But why not show his eyes?!!
You could say we already know how the Sage's eyes look like-which is my point!
We know how his eyes should look like! Kishi wants us to keep us thinking that the Sage had the Rinnegan!!

I would like to know what you guys think, but the reason I think Kishi didn't show us Sage's full face is because it has relevance to the plot:
  1. Rikuddo had some dojutsu other than the rinnegan!
  2. Rikuddo's face resembles an older version of Naruto/Minato or someone else we already know-it could confirm some info about his lineage!
  3. both of above
  4. to tease his fans!(bad Kishi!! )

I think the first reason is more likely because in order for Kishi to show Sage's full face he would also have to show his eyes-unless he decides to show him with the eyes closed which would be lame and very dissapointing.
So instead he showed us Sage's "fat nose" to keep us from thinking too much about his "eyes" so that when his "eyes" are revealed it would come as a surprise!

I know what you guys are gonna say...
How did he manage to conrol the Juubi without the Rinnegan? He was called Sage of Six paths ya know? blah blah blah...
I know, I know! But first hear me out, will you?

The Theory:
Spoiler:
The Sage never had the Rinnegan to begin with! He had normal eyes...
During his time even though chakra and "jutsu" existed their exact mechanism of working and relation was unknown. Ninjutsu was like "magic" and it was something that could be performed by chance.
However there were some few individuals who could intuitively control chakra. The Sage was among these lucky one.

When the Juubi plagued the world it was onto people like the Sage to protect others. Obviously they all failed-with the exception of the Sage! Not only the Sage was a genius, he also had something that set him apart from others like him! A Kekki Genkai! Wood release!

The Sage knew that it would be impossible for him to defeat the Juubi head on.
So instead he developed a sealing jutsu and with help of his Wood Release managed to temporarily subdue the Juubi, giving him enough time to perform his sealing technique and seal the Juubi inside himself! And so he became the first Jinchuriki!

EDIT: Add the possibility that the Sage was also a Sage(nature chakra user), him defeating the Juubi without any dojutsu becomes much more acceptable!!

However the Juubi's chakra was too strong and it began to affect his body!(Proof: Naruto's whisker marks are because of Kurama's chakra effect when Kushina was pregnant)
It caused his eyes to mutate into a Sharinnegan! (i.e the Juubi's eye)

With his new dojutsu the Sage was able to decipher the exact mechanism of of Ninjutsu!
Ninjutsu was no longer "magic"! The sage proved that anyone with proper training could perform this "magic" aka Ninjutsu and developed new techniques himself!! The Sage began teaching the world about his techniques along with his message of peace...
And so was the "Father of all Ninjutsu" aka the "Sage of the Six paths" born


PROOF:
Spoiler:
The pattern behind the Sage's cloak.
Quote:
We could all agree that the concentric circles represent the ripple pattern of the Rinnegan.
As for the tomoe, there are nine of them! The exact number as that in the juubi's eye!
So together they could represent the Juubi's eye!
Naturally, Kishi didn't drew Sharinnegan on Sage's back because then it would have been way too obvious!
Izanagi:
In Tob's words,
Quote:
A technique that could control the space between illusion and reality...
The most powerful genjutsu that anyone could cast on themselves!
Tobi also said that Izanagi was based on an ability the Sage had: Creation of all Things(say complete Izanagi).
This would mean that this ability of Sage could be considered as the ultimate genjutsu(since they are related) ever- converting illusions into reality out of nothingness!!

From what we know the Rinnegan doesn't have the ability to cast genjutsu like the Sharingan!
Nagato never used any sort of genjutsu(at least none that I remember).Please remember that I am talking about Genjutsu specifically related to dojutsu like MS's Tsukuyomi
So how was it the Sage could perform the Ultimate Genjutsu if he had the same "eyes" as Nagato which are unable to cast even a basic genjutsu?!!
Now I am expecting a thoughtful reply not a lame one like "He was the most powerful shinobi ever"/"The Sage could do anything!!"....

Madara's Meteorite Attack:
Madara used Bansho Ten'in(Rinnegan ability) and Susanoo(MS ability) in conjunction to drop two large meteors!
Now both M.Sharingan and Rinnegan have mutually distinctive abilities!
And Madara could activate only Rinnegan or his EMS at a given moment
But Madara was able to use Susanoo while his Rinnegan was active! This shows fusion of both's abilities is possible!
If so, isn't it also possible for a fusion of both dojutsu? This gives credibility to the possible existence of such a dojutsu i.e Sharinnegan

(Although I don't remeber the exact wording nor chapter)
Itachi's quote to Nagato:
Quote:
With your Rinnegan and my Sharingan...
It's not a strech to say that we could do anything!
Itachi was saying that if both the powers of Rinnegan and Sharingan were used simultaneously one could do anything-reference to the Sage's godlike ability aka Creation of all Things(true form of Izanagi).

This one is more like a theory! So use your own logic to test its validity!
The reason why Tobi has one Rinnegan and one Sharingan
Spoiler:
The Sage used his Izanagi to split the Juubi into nine Bijuus so it's logical that you would need to use Izanagi to merge them into one as well!
Now the Sage was said to have cast "complete Izanagi"(no blindness) with his "eyes". So if Tobi really wants to revive the Juubi he also need to cast a "complete Izanagi".
Agreed?

We know that you require Senju dna + Uchiha sharingan to cast Izanagi. But in this case you lose your sharingan like Tobi and Danzo did.
We now know that sharingan can be progressed to rinnegan.
So this essentially means that the rinnegan has its roots in Uchiha dna.
So doesn't it mean that Nagato should have been able to cast "complete Izanagi" with rinnegan since he was an Uzumaki(Senju dna) and had rinnegan(Uchiha eye)?
If not Nagato at least Madara should be able to!
But we never saw Nagato use Izanagi nor Madara! It's likely they can't!

Tobi needs to cast a complete Izanagi to revive the Juubi! But how?
Tobi despised Danzo's Izanagi saying that it was incomplete. But was Tobi's Izanagi any better? He also lost his eye which means his' was also incomplete, at that time!
Now Tobi has both Sharingan and the Rinnegan implanted!
Both the Rinnegan and the Sharingan have mutually distinctive abilities!
This wouldn't be any different than before unless
Quote:
To cast a "complete Izanagi" you need both the power of both
Sharingan: Illusions aka imagination and
Rinnegan: Breathe life aka The Outer Path!
lol
I wasted so much time typing this...
Kishi already hinted this! See chapter 510 pg11
We see the Sharinnegan! That time I only thought that it was a reference to the Juubi and not the Sage's dojutsu!


All this suggests that the Sage had powers of both, the Sharingan and the Rinnegan
Since it was a mutation caused because of the Juubi's chakra, Sage's dojutsu was passed on to his descendants.
And it was from Sage's original dojutsu that the Sharingan, byakugan etc originated.
And the Sage's dojutsu is the same as Juubi's eye aka Sharinnegan aka Rinnegan with 9 tomoe
Which is to say:
The Juubi's eye is the origin of all Dojutsus!!


Sorry for the wall of text.

Hope you enjoyed it!
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Last edited by K3nsh!n; 02-14-2012 at 08:12 AM.
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Old 02-10-2012, 10:10 PM   #2
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Default Re: Kishi is trickin' us!! The Sage didn't have the Rinnegan!!

One thing you could be right about is that he wasn't born with the renningan, but, rather, being a jinchuriki of the juubi morphed his eyes into having the renningan. If so, it could be possible that if Naruto becomes the Junchiriki of all 9 tailed beasts, he then may also gain a dojutsu that way.
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Old 02-11-2012, 01:12 AM   #3
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Default Re: Kishi is trickin' us!! The Sage didn't have the Rinnegan!!

Hm,the guy above me really tickled my imagination with that eye morph theory.
Maybe he won't show his full face to make him more mysterious.
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Old 02-11-2012, 01:52 AM   #4
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Default Re: Kishi is trickin' us!! The Sage didn't have the Rinnegan!!

I didn't think anything of it. I thought it wasn't important enough......but maybe there is something behind it..... good pick up.
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Old 02-11-2012, 02:19 AM   #5
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Default Re: Kishi is trickin' us!! The Sage didn't have the Rinnegan!!

Quote:
Originally Posted by calinarutoguy View Post
One thing you could be right about is that he wasn't born with the renningan, but, rather, being a jinchuriki of the juubi morphed his eyes into having the renningan. If so, it could be possible that if Naruto becomes the Junchiriki of all 9 tailed beasts, he then may also gain a dojutsu that way.
Yes. And the other tailed beasts gave Naruto a portion of their power + the kurama chakra he has at this point although he look tired he may have 5/30 of Juubi`s chakra. And he still has a chance to awake some doujutsu.
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Old 02-11-2012, 03:45 AM   #6
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Default Re: Kishi is trickin' us!! The Sage didn't have the Rinnegan!!

Cmon Kishi do ultimate troll.

Sage having Byakugan.:P
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Old 02-11-2012, 03:56 AM   #7
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Default Re: Kishi is trickin' us!! The Sage didn't have the Rinnegan!!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Vivi View Post
Cmon Kishi do ultimate troll.

Sage having Byakugan.:P
That would explain Kakashi's saying that Sharingan originated from Byakugan.
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Old 02-11-2012, 06:19 AM   #8
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Default Re: Kishi is trickin' us!! The Sage didn't have the Rinnegan!!

lol K3nsh!n...that's a charmin theory
we've agreed on most things but this one... I mean, this theory is so good... I like it personally, but I just thought of a theory yesterday that the Rinnegan is the sages origianal dojutsu and then i see this

lol vivi said the byakugan heh... i'd say that dojutsu seemed most natural to me among the three tho'.
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Old 02-11-2012, 06:26 AM   #9
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Default Re: Kishi is trickin' us!! The Sage didn't have the Rinnegan!!

He showed Sage's eyes, when Tobi was telling the story. I think it's a special surprise, who knows, maybe he looks too much like Naruto ..
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Old 02-11-2012, 07:59 AM   #10
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Default Re: Kishi is trickin' us!! The Sage didn't have the Rinnegan!!

Guys, Tobi IS the Sage. Seriously?
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Old 02-11-2012, 07:59 AM   #11
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Default Re: Kishi is trickin' us!! The Sage didn't have the Rinnegan!!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Uchiha Maruko View Post
That would explain Kakashi's saying that Sharingan originated from Byakugan.
Yes! But the question remains-what about Byakugan's origin?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kyūbi no Yōko View Post
He showed Sage's eyes, when Tobi was telling the story. I think it's a special surprise, who knows, maybe he looks too much like Naruto ..
When we saw the eyes they were drawn so small-it hardly counts!!
Plus Tobi was narrating the story!! I would give Kurama's memories more credibility than Tobi's stories!!
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Old 02-11-2012, 08:09 AM   #12
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Default Re: Kishi is trickin' us!! The Sage didn't have the Rinnegan!!

Further proof in support of my theory:

The pattern behind the Sage's cloak.
Quote:
We could all agree that the concentric circles represent the ripple pattern of the Rinnegan.
As for the tomoe, there are nine of them! The exact number as that in the juubi's eye!
So together they could represent the Juubi's eye!
Naturally, Kishi didn't drew Sharinnegan on Sage's back because then it would have been way too obvious!
This one is more like a theory! So use your own logic to test its validity!
Izanagi
Spoiler:
The Sage used his Izanagi to split the Juubi into nine Bijuus so it's logical that you would need to use Izanagi to merge them into one as well!
Now the Sage was said to have cast "complete Izanagi"(no blindness) with his "eyes". So if Tobi really wants to revive the Juubi he also need to cast a "complete Izanagi".
Agreed?

We know that you require Senju dna + Uchiha sharingan to cast Izanagi. But in this case you lose your sharingan like Tobi and Danzo did.
We now know that sharingan can be progressed to rinnegan.
So this essentially means that the rinnegan has its roots in Uchiha dna.
So doesn't it mean that Nagato should have been able to cast "complete Izanagi" with rinnegan since he was an Uzumaki(Senju dna) and had rinnegan(Uchiha eye)?
If not Nagato at least Madara should be able to!
But we never saw Nagato use Izanagi nor Madara! It's likely they can't!

Tobi needs to cast a complete Izanagi to revive the Juubi! But how?
Tobi despised Danzo's Izanagi saying that it was incomplete. But was Tobi's Izanagi any better? He also lost his eye which means his' was also incomplete, at that time!
Now Tobi has both Sharingan and the Rinnegan implanted!
Both the Rinnegan and the Sharingan have mutually distinctive abilities!
This wouldn't be any different than before unless
Quote:
To cast a "complete Izanagi" you need both the power of both
Sharingan: Illusions aka imagination and
Rinnegan: Breathe life aka The Outer Path!
Now if the Sage could cast a complete Izanagi with his "eyes" it should mean that he had power of both Sharingan and Rinnegan!
The Juubi's eye is a combination of both the Sharingan & Rinnegan.
So in a nutshell, the Sage got the Sharinnegan from the Juubi!

lol
I wasted so much time typing this...
Kishi already hinted this! See chapter 510 pg11
We see the Sharinnegan! That time I only thought that it was a reference to the Juubi and not the Sage's dojutsu!
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Old 02-11-2012, 09:31 AM   #13
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Default Re: Kishi is trickin' us!! The Sage didn't have the Rinnegan!!

Izanagi is a jutsu that connects illusion with reality, basically makes an illusion real.
So what help would Izanagi give to revive the Juubi?

I have the answer to that myself, when all the Bijuus will be stored to the Gedo Mazo (Juubi's body) he will make that Illusion, that creature, that Statue REAL, and it will become the Juubi.

Pretty fair, and it was obvious the Sage wasn't born with the Rinnegan, he probably had Sharingan at first, then he reached the climax and activated Rinnegan.

K3nsh!n, I have to admit, your theories are pretty awesome.
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Old 02-11-2012, 09:35 AM   #14
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Default Re: Kishi is trickin' us!! The Sage didn't have the Rinnegan!!

Chapter 373, Page 5.

They show the Sage's eyes. Has the Rinnegan.
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Old 02-11-2012, 12:01 PM   #15
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Default Re: Kishi is trickin' us!! The Sage didn't have the Rinnegan!!

^ Yes

This time it isn't a small detail, it's obvious.
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Old 02-11-2012, 02:44 PM   #16
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Default Re: Kishi is trickin' us!! The Sage didn't have the Rinnegan!!

Just because Kishi don't want to show Rikudou Sennin full face don't mean he doesn't have the Rinnegan. It for readers to keep going... you know to figure out all the big bad ass secrets and crap like that. By doing this more people would want to read Naruto and be curious
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Old 02-11-2012, 02:55 PM   #17
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Default Re: Kishi is trickin' us!! The Sage didn't have the Rinnegan!!

Well then do wonder why his face is hidden.
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Old 02-11-2012, 05:36 PM   #18
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Default Re: Kishi is trickin' us!! The Sage didn't have the Rinnegan!!

Damn TBC beat me to it... Also his whole body has been also shown with face :L
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Old 02-11-2012, 07:37 PM   #19
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Default Re: Kishi is trickin' us!! The Sage didn't have the Rinnegan!!

Quote:
Originally Posted by TheBlackChidori View Post
Chapter 373, Page 5.

They show the Sage's eyes. Has the Rinnegan.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kyūbi no Yōko View Post
^ Yes

This time it isn't a small detail, it's obvious.
Quote:
Originally Posted by zerosameri View Post
Damn TBC beat me to it... Also his whole body has been also shown with face :L
Common guys!
It was waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay back!!
Does it really count?!

Still I guess you would like an logical explanation:
It was the first time ever that the Sage was introduced and from Jiraya's point-of view!
Jiraya's knowledge about the Sage in itself was very limited. He himself knew about the Sage only as a legendary figure and as such his knowledge was unreliable at best. What he did knew was that the Sage had a dojutsu with a ripple like pattern!
What we saw was Jiraya's image of him, built from what he thought he knew about the Sage! This is why only Sage's silhoutte is shown, because no living human knew about Sage's appearance. It's normal he would consider that both Nagato and Sage had the same dojutsu because of the ripple pattern. Nobody had seen a rinnegan before, much less the Sharinnegan!

See where I am going?
The Sage's image has been built over a span of several chapters.
-First we knew about him as a legendary figure having dojutsu with ripple pattern.We thought them to be Rinnegan because of Nagato also has ripple pattern eyes.
-Then we knew about rinnegan's abilities and associated them to that of the Sage's.
-his history with the Juubi and his sons-that he also had a family and descendants.
-we got to know about his treasured tools.
-a more detailed glimpse of him from Kurama's memories! We know now that he was a blonde(could be because of age), had Jiraya-like nose and a Minato-ish feel about him! And that he wore a cloak which had pattern of ripples and nine tomoe on its back!

I may have messed up the order and missed some points-but you get the idea!
Of all the images of Sage's that we have seen so far, only the one from Kurama's memories is credible.
Why? Because only the tailed beasts have personally known him!! Any other info/description we have heard/seen about him, we have to accept but only with a doubt!
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Last edited by K3nsh!n; 02-11-2012 at 07:40 PM.
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Old 02-11-2012, 07:56 PM   #20
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Default Re: Kishi is trickin' us!! The Sage didn't have the Rinnegan!!

Quote:
Originally Posted by K3nsh!n View Post
Common guys!
It was waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay back!!
Does it really count?!

Still I guess you would like an logical explanation:
It was the first time ever that the Sage was introduced and from Jiraya's point-of view!
Jiraya's knowledge about the Sage in itself was very limited. He himself knew about the Sage only as a legendary figure and as such his knowledge was unreliable at best. What he did knew was that the Sage had a dojutsu with a ripple like pattern!
What we saw was Jiraya's image of him, built from what he thought he knew about the Sage! This is why only Sage's silhoutte is shown, because no living human knew about Sage's appearance. It's normal he would consider that both Nagato and Sage had the same dojutsu because of the ripple pattern. Nobody had seen a rinnegan before, much less the Sharinnegan!

See where I am going?
The Sage's image has been built over a span of several chapters.
-First we knew about him as a legendary figure having dojutsu with ripple pattern.We thought them to be Rinnegan because of Nagato also has ripple pattern eyes.
-Then we knew about rinnegan's abilities and associated them to that of the Sage's.
-his history with the Juubi and his sons-that he also had a family and descendants.
-we got to know about his treasured tools.
-a more detailed glimpse of him from Kurama's memories! We know now that he was a blonde(could be because of age), had Jiraya-like nose and a Minato-ish feel about him! And that he wore a cloak which had pattern of ripples and nine tomoe on its back!

I may have messed up the order and missed some points-but you get the idea!
Of all the images of Sage's that we have seen so far, only the one from Kurama's memories is credible.
Why? Because only the tailed beasts have personally known him!! Any other info/description we have heard/seen about him, we have to accept but only with a doubt!
Are you for real? I mean REALLY! That is like saying:

A: Madara was shown helping Itachi
B: Doesn't count, it was long ago

OR

A: Minato sealed the Kyuubi in Naruto
B: Doesn't count, it was long ago

OR EVEN BETTER

A: Sasuke got his 3 toma Sharingan
B: Doesn't count, it was long ago

Just no.

Edit: I failed... I meant to down rep ya. :L
Edit 2: Also the fact that the way everyone else describes him is the SAME means nothing?
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Last edited by zerosameri; 02-11-2012 at 08:01 PM.
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