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Old 01-26-2012, 03:46 PM   #141
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Default Re: One Piece Tier List

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Originally Posted by Vashe View Post
and i suppose kid would just stand there and let himself get tagged by caribou? like i said, we should go by feats... kid has better feats than caribou... fighting off a pacifista is a better feat than anything caribou has done so far...
Kid doesn't even concrete feats from that Pacifista encounter. It just showed his crew meeting a Pacifista. For all we know, he could've just ran away the moment after the scene was shown. Kid has no speed feats, so there's no "surprising" Caribou.

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and this is where we differ... i am arguing purely based on feats and maybe a little bit of powerscaling... but i don't believe hype should be a consideration in making tier lists... because its exactly just that... hype... if buggy really makes shichibukai status does that make him on the same tier as mihawk or even crocodile?
When I say hype, I mean Oda's intentions. Feats are valid sources of tier placement, but if a guy just shows one attack that won't hurt his opponent, then what else can he do? Obviously, Buggy is a joke character. Him being made into a Shichibukai won't affect his placement at all until he shows more than being a fool.

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lucci has tobu shigan hibachi which is ranged and had fire element properties and is casual attack, which makes it spammable... is caribou also unaffected by it as well now? as for the "every single character below Caribou deals damage by CQC" claim... all CP9 has ranged attacks... trafalgar law has his shambles... usopp is a ranged attacker... so is nami... brooks musical attacks are earshot range... zoro has his pound cannons... hody jones has his water bullets...
As mentioned, Hibachi is anime-only. An infant spamming its little punches won't hurt a world-class bodybuilder no matter how many times it tries. Spamming doesn't do anything against a Logia if you don't have Haki.

I was referring to those placed in the same tier as Caribou when I said "those below him". And how exactly do any of those attacks hurt Caribou anyway? As shown with Scratchmen Apoo, ranged attacks won't hurt Logia's.

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which doesn't negate the fact that his durability sucks... again, amaru was beaten by a kick and a ougun rifle punch... its pretty much the same as a g3 attack...
A Logia doesn't need durability if the opponent doesn't have Haki....


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it is no doubt lesser in speed than a G2 attack... and the argument raised is enel's reaction speed... he was not able to react to normal punches from luffy when he wasn't using mantra unlike cp9 agents... anyone saying enel has better reactions than cp9 would be contradicting panel evidence..
And why wouldn't Enel use Mantra? He either dodges or lets the attack phase through him. Then El Thor. No one has dodged his lightning attacks.

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no they can't... though enel tagging them without resorting to mantra is questionable...
And why wouldn't Enel use Mantra?

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a vice-admiral with kenbunshoku haki would be enough to pawn enel... enel IS NOT on the same tier as kuma...
If they can react to lightning and endure multiple lightning strikes, then sure.
But until they show that, then no.

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arlong withstood multiple attacks from east blue saga luffy... you seem to imply that luffy operates on the same power level through out the series... alabasta luffy =/= east blue luffy... mr. 2 was roughly on the same level as sanji on alabasta arc...
So I'm guessing you mean Alabasta Sanji > East Blue Luffy? Dunno, its hard to compare those two together.

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sanji was reacting to cannonballs during their escape from alabasta... mr.2 is on the same level... the SHC is implied to grow stronger in between arcs as zoro pointed out... east blue SHC =/= alabasta SHC...
Reacting to cannonballs doesn't mean your as strong as them.
Where do you want me to put Mr. 2 then?
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Old 01-26-2012, 11:49 PM   #142
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Default Re: One Piece Tier List

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Originally Posted by NagatoGod_of_Pain View Post
Kid doesn't even concrete feats from that Pacifista encounter. It just showed his crew meeting a Pacifista. For all we know, he could've just ran away the moment after the scene was shown. Kid has no speed feats, so there's no "surprising" Caribou.
and the pacifista would just let them get away, i suppose... and i'm not suggesting you put kidd against caribou, but am merely point out that kidd's panels make him more impressive than caribou himself...

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When I say hype, I mean Oda's intentions. Feats are valid sources of tier placement, but if a guy just shows one attack that won't hurt his opponent, then what else can he do? Obviously, Buggy is a joke character. Him being made into a Shichibukai won't affect his placement at all until he shows more than being a fool.
my point exactly... like you said, buggy is joke character BUT he does have a DF ability... caribou as far as panel goes is a joke character as well... but he does have a logia ability... its the only thing he's got going for him... he has no feats to be put as high tier unless you go with the logic of logia = high tier status which i don't think is a good premise to go on... but its your thread do what you want with it... i'm just pointing out some things that are questionable...

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As mentioned, Hibachi is anime-only. An infant spamming its little punches won't hurt a world-class bodybuilder no matter how many times it tries. Spamming doesn't do anything against a Logia if you don't have Haki.
nor would a character who has not presented any valid speed feats be able to make him tag mid-tiers who move roughly on the same speed as G2 luffy (referring to lucci of course)

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I was referring to those placed in the same tier as Caribou when I said "those below him". And how exactly do any of those attacks hurt Caribou anyway? As shown with Scratchmen Apoo, ranged attacks won't hurt Logia's.
that is a bad premise to go on... apoo's attacked did not hurt kizaru... going with that logic, that one attack did not affect one logia user can be extended to all is not really valid... first off... kizaru is made of light... caribou is made of mud... if nami spams his thunder tempo would kizaru brush it off?? or usopp's fire bird star??

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A Logia doesn't need durability if the opponent doesn't have Haki....
mud is susceptible to drying, a high temperature attack would logically harm caribou... and since it has partial wetness it would conduct electricity, hence a lightning attack would affect him... also mud isn't as "intangible" as the other elemental logias...

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And why wouldn't Enel use Mantra? He either dodges or lets the attack phase through him. Then El Thor. No one has dodged his lightning attacks.
except gan fall did when he saved luffy and conis... chapter 244 pg 17... also pagaya (conis' father) was able to push conis before el thor hit...

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And why wouldn't Enel use Mantra?
as far as feats go, enel used mantra as a defensive reaction... he never used it as an offense except for locating el thor targets... and as stated massive speed difference can negate mantra/KH...

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If they can react to lightning and endure multiple lightning strikes, then sure.
But until they show that, then no.
no one in OP can react to lightning but enel's lightnings as with real ones varies in speed... obviously el thor is not maximum speed and has enough charge time for characters to react...

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So I'm guessing you mean Alabasta Sanji > East Blue Luffy? Dunno, its hard to compare those two together.
no... but it doesn't necessarily mean that alabasta sanji would lose to krieg, considering luffy was just tanking everything krieg threw at him until krieg ran out of weapons...

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Reacting to cannonballs doesn't mean your as strong as them.
Where do you want me to put Mr. 2 then?
that's not exactly the point... the point is the character has supersonic+ reactions and movement at least to be able to intercept and deflect cannonball fire... something that krieg has never exhibited... and as much as krieg's armor can tank attacks... he hasn't shown the same durability when the attack connects directly at him... IIRC hardly a few attacks put him down... going at supersonic+ speed, with mr. 2's piercing attacks aimed at his head, i highly doubt krieg would just shrug that off...
mr. 2 would be low mid tier... krieg would have to be lower than that even...
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Old 01-27-2012, 12:27 AM   #143
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Default Re: One Piece Tier List

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Originally Posted by Vashe View Post
actually its a valid argument... otherwise you willl be arguing for logias maintaining logia dispersal ALL THE TIME... which would be ridiculous considering they still eat and drink and touch things physically... if they are on logia form all the time, things like that would be impossible to do so...
Enel maintained his intangibility while asleep. It's pretty obvious that simply attacking them when they're not paying attention is not going to do anything.

I can't speak for whether they are always in dispersal form. However, it is apparent that they are capable of interacting with objects in spite of otherwise using their dispersal ability. Such as Smoker's jutte. Or Kizaru's Den Den Mushi (snail phone thing).

Maybe there's a metaphorical on/off switch for their powers.

It doesn't really matter because in all matters pertaining to their applicability in the Battlegrounds, it should be assumed that Logias are always capable of dispersing unless some outside force counteracts that ability. Surprise or no surprise.

/incredibly late reply
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Old 01-27-2012, 02:25 AM   #144
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Default Re: One Piece Tier List

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Originally Posted by Cult of Personality View Post
Enel maintained his intangibility while asleep. It's pretty obvious that simply attacking them when they're not paying attention is not going to do anything.

I can't speak for whether they are always in dispersal form. However, it is apparent that they are capable of interacting with objects in spite of otherwise using their dispersal ability. Such as Smoker's jutte. Or Kizaru's Den Den Mushi (snail phone thing).

Maybe there's a metaphorical on/off switch for their powers.

It doesn't really matter because in all matters pertaining to their applicability in the Battlegrounds, it should be assumed that Logias are always capable of dispersing unless some outside force counteracts that ability. Surprise or no surprise.

/incredibly late reply
i think that speaks more of enel's DF control than being a standard logia ability... it can't be said that all logia users will be on the same level as enel's... though i suppose in a battleground setting with both characters bloodlusted, a logia user would expect an attack coming from any side so him being tagged with a surprise attack wherein he is unable to activate logia dispersal is negated...
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Old 01-28-2012, 01:16 PM   #145
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Default Re: One Piece Tier List

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Originally Posted by Vashe View Post
and the pacifista would just let them get away, i suppose... and i'm not suggesting you put kidd against caribou, but am merely point out that kidd's panels make him more impressive than caribou himself...
Yes, Kid uses a Repel against the metallic Pacifista and then commences to run away. Anything could've happened. We have nothing to base their encounter off of and for someone who relies so heavily on feats, using off-panel scenes is certainly concrete.

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my point exactly... like you said, buggy is joke character BUT he does have a DF ability... caribou as far as panel goes is a joke character as well... but he does have a logia ability... its the only thing he's got going for him... he has no feats to be put as high tier unless you go with the logic of logia = high tier status which i don't think is a good premise to go on... but its your thread do what you want with it... i'm just pointing out some things that are questionable...
Yes, Caribou can be used for comedic purposes, but he was given a bounty by the World Government that is currently higher than Law and Zoro. He is a Logia; nothing can instantly hurt him. That is a feat itself. I appreciate the feed back though.

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nor would a character who has not presented any valid speed feats be able to make him tag mid-tiers who move roughly on the same speed as G2 luffy (referring to lucci of course)
So Lucci is faster than Caribou, I agree. But how does Lucci remotely even hurt Caribou? If Lucci tries to use his strongest attack, he has to get within inches of Caribou. That would be the end. If Lucci tries attacking from range via Rankyaku, that still wouldn't do a thing. Lucci running around spamming attacks would tire him out faster than Caribou just standing there unaffected.

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that is a bad premise to go on... apoo's attacked did not hurt kizaru... going with that logic, that one attack did not affect one logia user can be extended to all is not really valid... first off... kizaru is made of light... caribou is made of mud... if nami spams his thunder tempo would kizaru brush it off?? or usopp's fire bird star??
I was pointing out that an attack based off of something so intangible such as sound still couldn't hurt a Logia. I don't base everything off of that one attack. Why would Nami's Thunder Tempo hurt Kizaru? Usopp already tried attacking Kizaru with his Fire Bird Star and it didn't work.

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mud is susceptible to drying, a high temperature attack would logically harm caribou... and since it has partial wetness it would conduct electricity, hence a lightning attack would affect him... also mud isn't as "intangible" as the other elemental logias...
Mud is susceptible to drying over long periods of time. Sanji's Diable Jambe burns his opponents. A simple burn would not completely dry out a wet swamp. In turn, Caribou's wet swamp can take out the flame of whatever fire-based attack.
The only person below Caribou who uses lightning attacks would be Nami. This is where I use Oda's intentions. Nami is not meant to be stronger than Caribou.

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except gan fall did when he saved luffy and conis... chapter 244 pg 17... also pagaya (conis' father) was able to push conis before el thor hit...
I meant as a direct attack. The instances you mentioned were when the victims are not even on the same island as Enel. The distance was MUCH larger than what a fight would be. No one has reacted to Enel's lightning attacks when they are on the same battlefield.

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as far as feats go, enel used mantra as a defensive reaction... he never used it as an offense except for locating el thor targets... and as stated massive speed difference can negate mantra/KH...
This is about CP9 members right? Not sure what your point is here. CP9 members run around Enel. They launch Rankyaku's. Enel isn't affected at the least bit. Enel locates them via Mantra. He spams lightning strikes. CP9 members can't react to lightning. It doesn't matter if someone is faster than a Logia if he/she doesn't know Haki to even hurt them.

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no one in OP can react to lightning but enel's lightnings as with real ones varies in speed... obviously el thor is not maximum speed and has enough charge time for characters to react...
So they see Enel charge an attack. So what? They can't do anything to hurt him. Enel spamming lightning attacks while immune to any of his opponent's attacks is nearly unstoppable.

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no... but it doesn't necessarily mean that alabasta sanji would lose to krieg, considering luffy was just tanking everything krieg threw at him until krieg ran out of weapons...
Ok...moot point.

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that's not exactly the point... the point is the character has supersonic+ reactions and movement at least to be able to intercept and deflect cannonball fire... something that krieg has never exhibited... and as much as krieg's armor can tank attacks... he hasn't shown the same durability when the attack connects directly at him... IIRC hardly a few attacks put him down... going at supersonic+ speed, with mr. 2's piercing attacks aimed at his head, i highly doubt krieg would just shrug that off...
mr. 2 would be low mid tier... krieg would have to be lower than that even...
I'll move Mr. 2 above Don Krieg. I guess Mr. 2 can prevent enough of Don Krieg's attacks until he's down to his exploding spear. From there, sure, Mr. 2 would be able to dodge it.
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Old 01-29-2012, 06:27 AM   #146
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Default Re: One Piece Tier List

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Originally Posted by NagatoGod_of_Pain View Post
Yes, Kid uses a Repel against the metallic Pacifista and then commences to run away. Anything could've happened. We have nothing to base their encounter off of and for someone who relies so heavily on feats, using off-panel scenes is certainly concrete.
i'll grant you that... but that also applies to caribou... as i stated before, caribou has no feats that would put him in high tier status...

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Yes, Caribou can be used for comedic purposes, but he was given a bounty by the World Government that is currently higher than Law and Zoro. He is a Logia; nothing can instantly hurt him. That is a feat itself. I appreciate the feed back though.
except we haven't seen him do anything that is impressive enough to be considered high tier aside from the logia ability... he has no speed, strength, destructive capacity or even stamina feats yet... if you put him in high tier now, you will be forced to up him in the ranks if he ever shows better feats... would you seriously put him in the same tier as enel??? considering enel has multiple panel showings...

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So Lucci is faster than Caribou, I agree. But how does Lucci remotely even hurt Caribou? If Lucci tries to use his strongest attack, he has to get within inches of Caribou. That would be the end. If Lucci tries attacking from range via Rankyaku, that still wouldn't do a thing. Lucci running around spamming attacks would tire him out faster than Caribou just standing there unaffected.
unfortunately caribou would also have nothing to tag lucci with... lucci could stay in the air via geppou and remain untouchable from there... yes caribou can win via tiring him out but that would mean he has difficulty winning over a mid-tier character....

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I was pointing out that an attack based off of something so intangible such as sound still couldn't hurt a Logia. I don't base everything off of that one attack. Why would Nami's Thunder Tempo hurt Kizaru? Usopp already tried attacking Kizaru with his Fire Bird Star and it didn't work.
caribou is made of mud which naturally has some water in them.... water conducts electricity and caribou has not yet presented any feats to make a claim that a lightning attack would affect him... so would a flame attack since mud is susceptible to being heated.... as for kizaru, he is made of light, something that is not affected by heat... so attacking light with fire is useless... attacking mud with fire on the otherhand will definitely have an effect...

Quote:
Mud is susceptible to drying over long periods of time. Sanji's Diable Jambe burns his opponents. A simple burn would not completely dry out a wet swamp. In turn, Caribou's wet swamp can take out the flame of whatever fire-based attack.
The only person below Caribou who uses lightning attacks would be Nami. This is where I use Oda's intentions. Nami is not meant to be stronger than Caribou.
considering sanji was able to burn an enlarged wadatsumi whole... i highly doubt caribou would pose a problem... and i am not saying nami is stronger than caribou but i am merely pointing out the flaw in the claim, "no one below caribou has the means to hurt him..." again, i question the validity of caribou being so high up the tier...

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I meant as a direct attack. The instances you mentioned were when the victims are not even on the same island as Enel. The distance was MUCH larger than what a fight would be. No one has reacted to Enel's lightning attacks when they are on the same battlefield.
enel has not displayed any actual speed feats that rivals soru users... he wasn't able to react to luffy's punches by himself... even if he uses mantra but his opponent is moving at a much higher speed (G2 or soru), mantra is negated and since he won't be able to see his opponent because of the speed difference, tagging them would be problematic... the best thing he can do is to cover his body with an electric shield... enel is upper mid-tier at best... if he is given maxim then he goes up to high tier...

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This is about CP9 members right? Not sure what your point is here. CP9 members run around Enel. They launch Rankyaku's. Enel isn't affected at the least bit. Enel locates them via Mantra. He spams lightning strikes. CP9 members can't react to lightning. It doesn't matter if someone is faster than a Logia if he/she doesn't know Haki to even hurt them.
except luffy has used high speed difference in negating kenbunshoku haki (mantra) with his bout against the boa sisters... knowing what your opponent is going to do next is only useful if you have enough speed to do something about it... but if his reaction speed is not on he same level as the opponent then it won't matter... enel's lightning attacks varies in speed and even if it does go at real lightning speed, it is enel's reaction speed that is the problem... basically CP9 can aimdodge enel's lightning attacks... now if enel can cover the entire battlefield with a massive AOE lightning attack, then yeah he can tag them (like raigou) but by himself he did not exhibit any attack of that caliber... granted cp9 wouldn't be able to beat him without any special equipments.. that's why they are also mid-tier... lucci, kaku and jyabura is arguably upper mid tier...

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So they see Enel charge an attack. So what? They can't do anything to hurt him. Enel spamming lightning attacks while immune to any of his opponent's attacks is nearly unstoppable.
what kind of spam? coz if its an el thor spamming, i believe cp9 soru users have high enough movement and reaction speed to aimdodge enel's attacks...

like i said, if he has raigou then yeah, enel would easily pawn any cp9... since cp9 won;t be able to dodge an attack that massive... but enel requires maxim to do that... (which is why i consider him high tier ONLY if he has maxim)

basically, i don't subscribe to the reasoning that an opponent not having anything to hurt a character equals to being the character on higher tier than the opponent... if the character has nothing to tag the opponent with, then it would basically be a stalemate...
its like a very slow brick character vs a very fast non lethal character... some may argue that the slow brick can tire out the fast character but that would be a stamina battle... what's stopping fast character from going well out of slow brick's range and regain some stamina???
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Old 01-29-2012, 11:11 AM   #147
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Default Re: One Piece Tier List

Haha, we're going nowhere.

I understand why you use feats so heavily, but this list is one that includes hype. I'm just trying to make it so that it follows Oda's intentions.

This list is subject to change as the manga progresses. We'll see a bunch of changes I'm sure.
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Old 01-29-2012, 11:26 AM   #148
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Default Re: One Piece Tier List

Vashe, if he's using hype then there's no point arguing that hype doesn't count. (Or at least that's what I gather. )
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Old 01-29-2012, 11:35 AM   #149
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Nice badge.
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Old 01-30-2012, 02:13 AM   #150
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Default Re: One Piece Tier List

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Vashe, if he's using hype then there's no point arguing that hype doesn't count. (Or at least that's what I gather. )
yeah... like i said, i don't care if the TS makes changes on it or not.... i'm merely pointing out things that any OP follower might raise an eyebrow with and question... XD
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Old 02-01-2012, 08:00 PM   #151
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Default Re: One Piece Tier List

Wait... Wait... Wait...
You're saying that Monster Chopper can't break through Mr. 1's metal body, but it still lolsmashed through Kumadori's Tekkai Gou.
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Old 02-01-2012, 08:06 PM   #152
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Default Re: One Piece Tier List

Was Kumadori known for having a particularly resilient Tekkai?
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Old 02-01-2012, 08:07 PM   #153
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i know jyabura's was pretty sturdy
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Old 02-01-2012, 09:04 PM   #154
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Default Re: One Piece Tier List

Jyabura was a Tekkai specialist and nearly three times stronger than Blueno, the next strongest CP9 after him.

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Old 02-02-2012, 02:49 PM   #155
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Wait... Wait... Wait...
You're saying that Monster Chopper can't break through Mr. 1's metal body, but it still lolsmashed through Kumadori's Tekkai Gou.
Then again, Kumadori is a lolwut character.

Mr. 1 blocked one of Mihawk's attacks. Not a lot of people can say that.
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Old 02-02-2012, 02:51 PM   #156
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Then again, Kumadori is a lolwut character.

Mr. 1 blocked one of Mihawk's attacks. Not a lot of people can say that.
Wait... what?!

I just remember them seeing each other in marineford, then Mihawk lolslashing him to hell.
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Old 02-02-2012, 02:56 PM   #157
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Wait... what?!

I just remember them seeing each other in marineford, then Mihawk lolslashing him to hell.
Haha, I meant that defeating Kumadori isn't that great of a feat.

Ch. 570, pg. 7
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Old 02-02-2012, 08:21 PM   #158
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I heard that Oda said in an recent interview, Kaido managed to sock Shanks in his jaw. Now I don't know what means though to you nor myself.
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Old 02-03-2012, 03:11 PM   #159
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That's rather interesting.

Then again, Shanks isn't one to care that much about being mistreated while Kaido seems like a jerk.

Can't wait for it to be elaborated on.
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Old 02-03-2012, 05:42 PM   #160
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Few took that as an implied statement Kaido was superior to Shanks, but we don't know what occured.
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