Spoiler (Please read my proof before you vote) Chidori and Raikiri are one in the same

[EvL j3st3r]

Originally Posted by Syn Gizzam

Green^

In a different scenerio, your evidence would be sufficient enough for me without it having to be said. The reason it's not sufficient here is bc the opposite HAS been said. That's why it's necessary that the manga say it's a different technique, bc the manga already said it's the same technique. Simple observation doesn't overturn facts STATED in black and white by the manga.

And I don't see how you can think what Guy said was debatable. Guy had no reason to mislead the ppl he was talking to. There's no reason to believe Guy was mislead himself. Kakashi was present and did not interject. And Guy stays very familiar with Kakashi's abilities due to his rivalry.

And on a speculation note, I think it's a safe bet to say Guy (as a close comrade) would have seen both by this point if they where two different things, hence he wouldn't have described them as the exact same.

And I'm not ranting about the comparison. I'm stating the obvious. Two different users, two different styles. And minor details can vary in free hand, still it's debatable if those details really exist in any meaningful proportion since it's really up to the perspective of the viewer.

[Syn Gizzam]

Originally Posted by EvL j3st3r

In a different scenerio, your evidence would be sufficient enough for me without it having to be said. The reason it's not sufficient here is bc the opposite HAS been said. That's why it's necessary that the manga say it's a different technique, bc the manga already said it's the same technique. Simple observation doesn't overturn facts STATED in black and white by the manga.

And I don't see how you can think what Guy said was debatable. Guy had no reason to mislead the ppl he was talking to. There's no reason to believe Guy was mislead himself. Kakashi was present and did not interject. And Guy stays very familiar with Kakashi's abilities due to his rivalry.

And on a speculation note, I think it's a safe bet to say Guy (as a close comrade) would have seen both by this point if they where two different things, hence he wouldn't have described them as the exact same.

And I'm not ranting about the comparison. I'm stating the obvious. Two different users, two different styles. And minor details can vary in free hand, still it's debatable if those details really exist in any meaningful proportion since it's really up to the perspective of the viewer.

I mean i gave you proof from both the manga and databook two kishi statements and the databook was written by the god of the naruto world so anything that comes out of his mouth that isnt ridiculous or impacts the manga is true in my opinion., that one statement cant hold up, i mean if it was kakashi saying, no lightning blade is the same exact jutsu as chidori, no power differences whatsoever, or something along the lines of that ok, but like i said odama rasengan and rasengan... same exact jutsu just more chakra... still classified differently..

[EvL j3st3r]

I'm still not sure Kishi writes the databook. Even if he does.......Kishi also wrote the manga. and the manga says they're the same stated directly in unmistakable words. Thus far, the manga hasn't justified the case being any different. So, it's really about which source you want to believe. I choose the manga bc that is the story. So as far as the story's concerned they're the same. If Kishi has a different thought in his head then he hasn't put it in the story yet so therefore it does not exist in the story yet. It's cool man. That's just me speaking. We just disagree that's all.

and I agree about Rasengan and Odama Rasengan being different. But the manga has said they are different where as it said the opposite for Chidori and Raikiri. The difference in their physical attributes are obvious and undoubtedly intended. These same elements are absent in your case about Chidori/Raikiri.

[Syn Gizzam]

Originally Posted by EvL j3st3r

I'm still not sure Kishi writes the databook. Even if he does.......Kishi also wrote the manga. and the manga says they're the same stated directly in unmistakable words. Thus far, the manga hasn't justified the case being any different. So, it's really about which source you want to believe. I choose the manga bc that is the story. So as far as the story's concerned they're the same. If Kishi has a different thought in his head then he hasn't put it in the story yet so therefore it does not exist in the story yet. It's cool man. That's just me speaking. We just disagree that's all.

and I agree about Rasengan and Odama Rasengan being different. But the manga has said they are different where as it said the opposite for Chidori and Raikiri. The difference in their physical attributes are obvious and undoubtedly intended. These same elements are absent in your case about Chidori/Raikiri.

These elements arent absent, i gave u pages and chapters showing physical differences, you even said it would be enough for you, except what guy said. I can find more if youd like, but im very lazy but i will if it comes down to it lol.
And kishi does write these, if i could put a link up with out being repremanded i would but if you go to a site where u can buy databooks online it shows the author as kishimoto, and he even puts his name all over and inside the databook.
and what guy says is debatable imo, i mean why would all the naruto games allow kakashi to use chidori and raikri (even a collab jutsu called lightning chidori, raikri and chidori mixed...and i know youll say its not canon and your right but it just shows how many people recognize them as different jutsu) and a databook written by kishi explain them as different, and the physical differences ive shown, kishi didnt put shadows in the center of raikri by mistake.He didnt put a second page in there for raikiri for his health lol. Im sure if they were the same he wouldve noted in chidoris section that kakashis is called lightning blade or whatever. And the fact that he took the time to note different power levels between the jutsu takes it further. i mean you could say he just put raikiri in there for fun trivia or some bull, but he even took it a step further saying its stronger then chidori.
as far as im concerned one debatable statement by guy, isnt enough proof to make all my proof mean nothing, ive shown un said differences kishi drew on purpose, showing physical difference between raikiri and chidori, and i can find more if youd like, ive seen more lol, i know what lightning blade looks like he makes it look like that everytime... so as u said its undoubtedly intended to look like that, size shouldnt matter so much.
and i also have written material, in the official naruto encylopedia if you will, written by the god of naruto himself showing difference in power. I can go on and on but my brain hurts, you have to admit i have many many valid points. Just think it explains alot.

[EvL j3st3r]

Originally Posted by Syn Gizzam

These elements arent absent, i gave u pages and chapters showing physical differences, you even said it would be enough for you except what guy said. I can find more if youd like, but im very lazy but i will if it comes down to it lol.
That was in reference to other evidence. If the manga had not said otherwise, I would have taken your evidence from databook, Narutopedia, and the handsigns to say that it's most likely that they are two different techniques. It would've been the best evidence so I would have leaned that direction, tho I still wouldn't have considered it solid proof.

For the physical differences you speak of, I actually said I personally don't see them different. They look the same to me. Extremely small details can be attributed to freehanded art if they even exist at all.

And kishi does write these, if i could put a link up with out being repremanded i would but if you go to a site where u can buy databooks online it shows the author as kishimoto, and he even puts his name all over and inside the databook.
and what guy says is debatable imo, i mean why would all the naruto games allow kakashi to use chidori and raikri (even a collab jutsu called lightning chidori, raikri and chidori mixed...and i know youll say its not canon and your right but it just shows how many people recognize them as different jutsu) and a databook written by kishi explain them as different, and the physical differences ive shown, kishi didnt put shadows in the center of raikri by mistake.He didnt put a second page in there for raikiri for his health lol. Im sure if they were the same he wouldve noted in chidoris section that kakashis is called lightning blade or whatever. And the fact that he took the time to note different power levels between the jutsu takes it further. i mean you could say he just put raikiri in there for fun trivia or some bull, but he even took it a step further saying its stronger then chidori.
as far as im concerned one debatable statement by guy, isnt enough proof to make all my proof mean nothing, ive shown un said differences kishi drew on purpose, showing physical difference between raikiri and chidori, and i can find more if youd like, ive seen more lol, i know what lightning blade looks like.
and i also have written material, in the official naruto encylopedia if you will, written by the god of naruto himself showing difference in power. I can go on and on but my brain hurts, you have to admit i have many many valid points. Just think it explains alot.

green. You do make good arguments. I'll give that. I just think you're outsourced. There's no reason for Guy to be wrong. There would be nothing to gain in writing that. And this is the point where Kishi enlightens us on what Chidori is. Filling in the blanks for the audience. The whole point was to hype Sasuke (and Kakashi a little). I see no reason in the manga for there to be one little single detail of a lie in it. I mean if it was a lie, it came with no intended pay-off. It would've just been for no reason. What is there to gain? I think Kishi's intention at the time was that they're the same. He may have changed his mind later (hell, he may have even forgot or confused himself for all I know) but he still didn't overwrite it in the manga. So in the manga, that fact hasn't changed. Sorry, that's where I stand with it. I don't care what Kishi intends on this particular matter if the story says different. All that means is that he contradicted himself and put the wrong thing in the story. That doesn't change the storyline he's written. The story is the story. If he wants to change something he's written, I'll accept it when it's put in. Even if he has to PNJ it, he still has to put it in there to justify that it's changed. Otherwise, there's no storyline consistency.

[Gouldy17]

sayin they are different is like saying narutos base sexy jutsu is different from konohamarus base sexy jutsu just because narutos has the lines on the cheeks and also has blond hair....

in chapter 361 deidara calls saskues chidori, raikiri which saskue tells him its not raikiri its chidori.. imo its a misunderstanding by readers thinking Sasuke meant "this move is different" when infact he was saying "The actual name is Chidori"
Gais exact words....CHIDORI....."OR AS ITS ALSO KNOWN" RAIKIRI (chapter 114 page 3)

there is no actual proof that kakashi's raikiri is stronger than chidori just like there is no actual proof that jiraya's rasengan is more powerful than narutos just because its slightly bigger

[EvL j3st3r]

^thank you!!!!!!!!

[king kakashi]

there are differences in the jutsu
1- chidori seems to be rather formless wereas the raikiri takes shape in the palm making it look more solid
2- the chidori is often shown covering all of sasukes hand and wrist leaving large tendrals but the raikiri seems to be mostly fcused into kakashi's hand
3- the chidori seems possible to modify even during the jab wereas the raikiri is aready modifyed so the user can't change the attack in the middle of the charge
4- it is a concentrated form of the chidori kind of like sasuke's chidori spear
so in base they are the same technique only modifyed

[JashinSama]

Ha, told you all so. EVEN THAT was given to Sasuke. :P He used his Sharingan to copy it. The only reason Sasuke even HAS a lightning element is because of this jutsu. Otherwise he'd only have fire, which would mean Naruto would be outweighed, and now, Naruto has the upper hand, because Sasuke has wasted his time making his Lightning (fake) element into his main element. What a waste of time he's had, he'll have something in store for him when he gets blasted with the RasenShuriken.

And if he becomes Immortal when he gets the EMS, then that's even better, he'll become a normal human, like Temujin. Except, you know immortal.

[king kakashi]

Originally Posted by JashinSama

Ha, told you all so. EVEN THAT was given to Sasuke. :P He used his Sharingan to copy it. The only reason Sasuke even HAS a lightning element is because of this jutsu.
kakashi has dispayed 4(3 mange) elements at above average skill juts by copying
Otherwise he'd only have fire, which would mean Naruto would be outweighed, and now, Naruto has the upper hand, because Sasuke has wasted his time making his Lightning (fake)
that makes no sense
element into his main element. What a waste of time he's had, he'll have something in store for him when he gets blasted with the RasenShuriken.
fire ball jutsu owns rasenshuriken
And if he becomes Immortal when he gets the EMS, then that's even better, he'll become a normal human, like Temujin. Except, you know immortal.
madara didn't become imortal by getting ems he got it by either beating or losing to hashirama senju

in blue

[Syn Gizzam]

Originally Posted by EvL j3st3r

green. You do make good arguments. I'll give that. I just think you're outsourced. There's no reason for Guy to be wrong. There would be nothing to gain in writing that. And this is the point where Kishi enlightens us on what Chidori is. Filling in the blanks for the audience. The whole point was to hype Sasuke (and Kakashi a little). I see no reason in the manga for there to be one little single detail of a lie in it. I mean if it was a lie, it came with no intended pay-off. It would've just been for no reason. What is there to gain? I think Kishi's intention at the time was that they're the same. He may have changed his mind later (hell, he may have even forgot or confused himself for all I know) but he still didn't overwrite it in the manga. So in the manga, that fact hasn't changed. Sorry, that's where I stand with it. I don't care what Kishi intends on this particular matter if the story says different. All that means is that he contradicted himself and put the wrong thing in the story. That doesn't change the storyline he's written. The story is the story. If he wants to change something he's written, I'll accept it when it's put in. Even if he has to PNJ it, he still has to put it in there before it's changed.

Lol the shading is to show that its condensed, and its not so pointly drawn, chidori is just completely white and takes up his whole hand, theres a giant ring of energy around kakashi i dont know how you missed that one lol, its drawn in darker, such as how rasengan is drawn with a huge dark spot in the center, referring that its very condensed

and here you have it. Kakashi using the CHIDORI not raikiri, probably about the same level as sasuke was when he used it against gaara.
Ch:244 pg 4: it looks exactly like sasukes chidori but differs to kakashis raikiri later in the story.

[Syn Gizzam]

Originally Posted by king kakashi

there are differences in the jutsu
1- chidori seems to be rather formless wereas the raikiri takes shape in the palm making it look more solid
2- the chidori is often shown covering all of sasukes hand and wrist leaving large tendrals but the raikiri seems to be mostly fcused into kakashi's hand
3- the chidori seems possible to modify even during the jab wereas the raikiri is aready modifyed so the user can't change the attack in the middle of the charge
4- it is a concentrated form of the chidori kind of like sasuke's chidori spear
so in base they are the same technique only modifyed

Exactly what ive been saying lol thanks =)

[Kiez]

I always thought Raikiri was a more powerful version of Chidori.

[EvL j3st3r]

Lol the shading is to show that its condensed, and its not so pointly drawn, chidori is just completely white and takes up his whole hand, theres a giant ring of energy around kakashi i dont know how you missed that one lol, its drawn in darker, such as how rasengan is drawn with a huge dark spot in the center, referring that its very condensed and here you have it. Kakashi using the CHIDORI not raikiri, probably about the same level as sasuke was when he used it against gaara.
Ch:244 pg 4: it looks exactly like sasukes chidori but differs to kakashis raikiri later in the story.

sigh.......honestly I'm just completely tired of this argument by now. We've went round enough and I'm tired of both of us repeatedly saying the same things. You feel your case is strong as I feel my case is too. I see no change here and I'm not interested in an eternal argument. So let's just agree that we disagree.

[EvL j3st3r]

Originally Posted by JashinSama

Ha, told you all so. EVEN THAT was given to Sasuke. :P He used his Sharingan to copy it. The only reason Sasuke even HAS a lightning element is because of this jutsu. Otherwise he'd only have fire, which would mean Naruto would be outweighed, and now, Naruto has the upper hand, because Sasuke has wasted his time making his Lightning (fake) element into his main element. What a waste of time he's had, he'll have something in store for him when he gets blasted with the RasenShuriken.

And if he becomes Immortal when he gets the EMS, then that's even better, he'll become a normal human, like Temujin. Except, you know immortal.

It's not a definite fact that Sharingan can copy the ability to harness a certain nature element. It can copy handseals for sure. In my opinion I say it's a little more than that tho. Since it does give chakra color, I suppose it could even copy the form of shape manipulation. But nature manipulation I doubt. It takes I mean ppl aren't capable of just any nature manipulation. It has to suit them. And it takes extreme skill to harness the power of you nature element even if you know in principle how it should be done. I don't think there's any way to skip the training in nature manipulation.

[mrsticky005]

It's the same to me. Kakashi just gets to call his lightning blade since he cut lightning.

Allegedly.

[yondaime*]

yeah they are the same.

[zerosameri]

It is basically the same, it just differs among users and how it is called. The Raikiri is used for cutting. It's basically a chidori on steroids and needs more chakra control than normal.

The origons of this comes from an old tale about a widely known samurai and his sword called chidori. It started to poor so he went and took shelter underneath a tree, then a bold of lighting stuck him and he cut it with his sword. Then after that he soon renamed it Raikiri. The Raikiri means Lightning Edge, so when you hear that you should more or less think of something really sharp and something that cuts. Oh and and before he names his swords Raikiri he used it more or less for stabbing rather than cutting.