Deidara vs Jiraiya

[Phoenix Wright]

"Base Sasuke is faster than SM Jiraiya"

[SageoftheSixPaths]

Originally Posted by heroeking

Deidara rapes. Deidara almost got Sasuke if he didn't summon. Deidara bombs all of Jiraiya summons the spams from the sky with dragon. The only reason Sasuke could beat Deidara was because of his speed. Base Sasuke is faster than SM Jiraiya. Deidara reacted to a Sasuke blitz. Deidara rapes.

Oh Mylanta, no.

SM Jiraiya blitzed Human Path, who is easily sonic, and potentially supersonic based on the other Path's speed. Sasuke is supersonic at most, and that wasn't until his fight against the Kages/Danzo when he got another "convenient" power boost from Kishi.

And Jiraiya has MULTIPLE boss summons available to him, not just one. That, plus prep time needed for anything bigger than C2, plus the gigantic speed gap between them, plus Ma and Pa, plus superior ranged Jutsu on Jiraiya's side (Oil Flame Bomb, anyone?).

Originally Posted by Phoenix Wright

Neg tiem?

Aww now I feel bad I put you to neutral, someone up rep him.

On the second though you DO think for some reason Deidara rapes an SM Jiraiya which is

Ah, power is a cruel mistress.

[Phoenix Wright]

I know =(

Well now that I think about it, Base Sasuke>SM Jiraiya in speed might sorta possibly deserve it...

I have a better reaction than the Obama one to SM Jiraiya Base Sasuke thing because that was lol.

[heroeking]

Originally Posted by Phoenix Wright

Neg tiem?

Aww now I feel bad I put you to neutral, someone up rep him.

On the second though you DO think for some reason Deidara rapes an SM Jiraiya which is

Please explain how this would be any different than Sasuke vs Deidara, accept Sasuke is faster. considering they both have similar abilities. So you're saying that SM Jiraiya is faster than Sasuke. Sasuke was keeping up with Base Killerbee and Raikage. Sasuek managed to Actually put a cut on Raikage despite having raiton armor.

[heroeking]

Originally Posted by Phoenix Wright

I know =(

Well now that I think about it, Base Sasuke>SM Jiraiya in speed might sorta possibly deserve it...

I have a better reaction than the Obama one to SM Jiraiya Base Sasuke thing because that was lol.

If you think it's so funny, then explain and provide a counter argument instead of spamming gifs you little sh*t. Yes Base Sasuke>SM Jiraiya.

[SageoftheSixPaths]

Originally Posted by heroeking

Please explain how this would be any different than Sasuke vs Deidara, accept Sasuke is faster. considering they both have similar abilities. So you're saying that SM Jiraiya is faster than Sasuke. Sasuke was keeping up with Base Killerbee and Raikage. Sasuek managed to Actually put a cut on Raikage despite having raiton armor.

Base KB and Raikage are supersonic, or thereabouts. And there were others with Sasuke against KB. Even then, in V2 Sasuke got his ass handed to him. He couldn't track KB's swords, either, meaning they were moving too quickly/erratically for even the Sharingan to track.

As for Raikage, he fights in close range and close range only. He hit a target completely covered in Blaze Release flames, so of course he's going to have an injury.

As for actual speed, Raikage blitzed Sasuke so many times in a dozen panels it was ridiculous. Only the Sharingan's enhanced sight let Sasuke track A's movements, and even then he couldn't do it very well.

SM Jiraiya is around V2 Bee speed, and a dozen times more varied in terms of Jutsu available to him. Deidara was slower than Sasuke by a decent amount in close combat, and his C2 Dragon's speed was about the same as Gaara's sand (though slower than his gourd sand). That's not that fast, and neither are Deidara's techniques. They mostly need a good amount of prep, don't inflict that much damage, and can be easily countered, tanked, or dodged, especially by SM Jiraiya.

Deidara cannot run fast enough to get away from Jiraiya's techniques, is not strong enough to take more than one or two blows in close quarters, doesn't have a powerful enough technique to counter something like Oil Flame Bomb, and doesn't have enough variety in his Jutsu to overwhelm Jiraiya.

Originally Posted by heroeking

If you think it's so funny, then explain and provide a counter argument instead of spamming gifs you little sh*t. Yes Base Sasuke>SM Jiraiya.

Watch the language, and please try to avoid personal attacks. I realize we're debating, but it's still just a manga and it's still just a manga forum.

[Phoenix Wright]

If you think it's so funny, then explain and provide a counter argument instead of spamming gifs you little sh*t. Yes Base Sasuke>SM Jiraiya.

No need to flame, sorry I negged you no need to get butthurt D=

Do I really need to explain, I'll edit this post in a sec I Just opened up a bunch of tabs from other threads.

Actually, I'll make a new post, prepare for impact though because if you wanted a long post for proof this is the perfect chance to provide it.

To add DA Style or not to add......

[Kuromaki]

Really people? Don't flame in here.

[heroeking]

Originally Posted by SageoftheSixPaths

Oh Mylanta, no.

SM Jiraiya blitzed Human Path, who is easily sonic, and potentially supersonic based on the other Path's speed. Sasuke is supersonic at most, and that wasn't until his fight against the Kages/Danzo when he got another "convenient" power boost from Kishi.

And Jiraiya has MULTIPLE boss summons available to him, not just one. That, plus prep time needed for anything bigger than C2, plus the gigantic speed gap between them, plus Ma and Pa, plus superior ranged Jutsu on Jiraiya's side (Oil Flame Bomb, anyone?).

Ah, power is a cruel mistress.

1.Every summons Jiraiya summons dies from being bombed.
2.All of Jiraiya's ranged jutsu are negated because Deidara is flying.
3.Jiraiya won't even have enough time to summon to many summons considering Deidara is flying and spamming bombs.
4.Sasuke had to use his sharingan to help react to those bombs/
5.Base Sasuke>Sage Jiraiya.
6.Jiraiya can't even touch deidara while flying unless he uses pa's water gun, which he can't use because he will be too busy dodging bombs.

[heroeking]

Originally Posted by SageoftheSixPaths

Base KB and Raikage are supersonic, or thereabouts. And there were others with Sasuke against KB. Even then, in V2 Sasuke got his ass handed to him. He couldn't track KB's swords, either, meaning they were moving too quickly/erratically for even the Sharingan to track.

Sasuke dodged a cloak Lariat from Bee!!!!! You must be out of your mind if you think SM Jiraiya is faster than Base Bee, V1 Bee, or V2 Bee. You think sm Jiraiya could keep up with Bee's swordplay?

As for Raikage, he fights in close range and close range only. He hit a target completely covered in Blaze Release flames, so of course he's going to have an injury.

As for actual speed, Raikage blitzed Sasuke so many times in a dozen panels it was ridiculous. Only the Sharingan's enhanced sight let Sasuke track A's movements, and even then he couldn't do it very well.

Raikage never blitzed Sasuke. manga pg, and chap.

SM Jiraiya is around V2 Bee speed, and a dozen times more varied in terms of Jutsu available to him. Deidara was slower than Sasuke by a decent amount in close combat, and his C2 Dragon's speed was about the same as Gaara's sand (though slower than his gourd sand). That's not that fast, and neither are Deidara's techniques. They mostly need a good amount of prep, don't inflict that much damage, and can be easily countered, tanked, or dodged, especially by SM Jiraiya.

Do you have any proof to say SM Jiriaya is around v2 Bee speed??? Deidara techniques need no prep. Yes they inflict a lot of damage, and no they cannot be easily countered.

Deidara cannot run fast enough to get away from Jiraiya's techniques, is not strong enough to take more than one or two blows in close quarters, doesn't have a powerful enough technique to counter something like Oil Flame Bomb, and doesn't have enough variety in his Jutsu to overwhelm Jiraiya.

How would oil flame bombs hit Deidara if he's flying?????? Base Sasuke?SM Jiraiya. Deidara dodged a blitz from Sasuke, he could avoid SM Jiraiya.


Watch the language, and please try to avoid personal attacks. I realize we're debating, but it's still just a manga and it's still just a manga forum.

In white

[SageoftheSixPaths]

Originally Posted by heroeking

1.Every summons Jiraiya summons dies from being bombed.
2.All of Jiraiya's ranged jutsu are negated because Deidara is flying.
3.Jiraiya won't even have enough time to summon to many summons considering Deidara is flying and spamming bombs.
4.Sasuke had to use his sharingan to help react to those bombs/
5.Base Sasuke>Sage Jiraiya.
6.Jiraiya can't even touch deidara while flying unless he uses pa's water gun, which he can't use because he will be too busy dodging bombs.

1. Not true at all. Toad Bosses survived a direct ST from Deva. ST is easily town busting. The only moves Deidara has that are even close to that strong are C3 (which needs too much prep to be useful) and C0 (which kills Deidara, so is again, useless).
2. Oil Flame Bomb is large enough to engulf and kill a boss summon with ease. C2 isn't strong enough to stop it, and it's got enough range to reach Deidara wherever he is. Konan was flying when Jiraiya fought her, and she still got her ass whooped. He has plenty of range, especially with Boss Summons and SM speed/strength boosts giving him jumping and running advantages.
3. Ma and Pa are summoned almost instantly with SM activated. The other Toad Bosses can be summoned just as quickly. Jiraiya can easily summon all 5 bosses en mass in only a second or two. Bombs take time to reach Jiraiya from Deidara's flying position, can be easily dodged or blocked by a counter Jutsu, and Deidara needs time to make more after every use.
4. Sasuke was infinitely weaker against Deidara compared to his fight against Danzo. Also, when does it say he NEEDED his Sharingan to track the missiles? He seemed to be fine on his own -- the Sharingan just stays active in almost all of Sasuke's battles, regardless of its necessity. SM Jiraiya could react to several enemies with high sonic to high supersonic speeds attacking him from multiple angles, and even blitzed one of them in close quarters.
5. That is both untrue and irrelevant. If you'd like to make another thread about it, be my guest, though.
6. Ma and Pa can easily cut down bombs before they get remotely close to Jiraiya with War of Words.

[deidara#1]

@heroking

If your point in comparing Sasuke's and SM Jiriaya's feats is that Deidara almost beat Sasuke so their for Deidara > Sasuke > SM Jiraiya, than you can't use feats that Sasuke got after Deidara vs Sasuke.

[heroeking]

Originally Posted by SageoftheSixPaths

1. Not true at all. Toad Bosses survived a direct ST from Deva. ST is easily town busting. The only moves Deidara has that are even close to that strong are C3 (which needs too much prep to be useful) and C0 (which kills Deidara, so is again, useless).

manga chp.? Irelevant anyway since we're talking about explosive damage.

2. Oil Flame Bomb is large enough to engulf and kill a boss summon with ease. C2 isn't strong enough to stop it, and it's got enough range to reach
Deidara wherever he is. Konan was flying when Jiraiya fought her, and she still got her ass whooped. He has plenty of range, especially with Boss Summons and SM speed/strength boosts giving him jumping and running advantages.

Oil flame bomb will not reach Deidara in the AIR. No explanation needed, Jiriaya has no long range attacks that can reach deidara on his dragon. except pa's water gun, which doubt can even reach him.

3. Ma and Pa are summoned almost instantly with SM activated. The other Toad Bosses can be summoned just as quickly. Jiraiya can easily summon all 5 bosses en mass in only a second or two. Bombs take time to reach Jiraiya from Deidara's flying position, can be easily dodged or blocked by a counter Jutsu, and Deidara needs time to make more after every use.

hahaha...you actually think Jiraiya has enough time to summon "5" Boss summons, he'd probably use up 75% of his chakra anyway. Jiraiya trying to summon 5 boss summons is suicide.

4. Sasuke was infinitely weaker against Deidara compared to his fight against Danzo. Also, when does it say he NEEDED his Sharingan to track the missiles? He seemed to be fine on his own -- the Sharingan just stays active in almost all of Sasuke's battles, regardless of its necessity. SM Jiraiya could react to several enemies with high sonic to high supersonic speeds attacking him from multiple angles, and even blitzed one of them in close quarters.

If he didn't need his sharingan, he would have used it.

5. That is both untrue and irrelevant. If you'd like to make another thread about it, be my guest, though.

Yes it is true unless you can prove otherwise.

6. Ma and Pa can easily cut down bombs before they get remotely close to Jiraiya with War of Words.

Actually Deidara can just fly out of range and spam until Jiriaya tires out. WAter gun has limited range.

In white

[heroeking]

Originally Posted by deidara#1

@heroking

If your point in comparing Sasuke's and SM Jiriaya's feats is that Deidara almost beat Sasuke so their for Deidara > Sasuke > SM Jiraiya, than you can't use feats that Sasuke got after Deidara vs Sasuke.

I haven't used feats sasuke got after the Deidara fight, but that that's irrelevant.

I never said Deidara > Sasuke > SM Jiraiya, don't assume stuff. I only said Sasuke>SM Jiriaya in speed.

[SageoftheSixPaths]

The fact that you keep citing Pa's water gun means you watch the anime and not the manga, at least in part, correct? Because it's not a water gun, it's his tongue extending to the height of a skyscraper-esque building and cutting it in half like butter.

Also, you keep citing Deidara's ability to fly out of Jiraiya's range, but how high do you think he can go? Can he fly higher than Gamabunta's head? How about Gamabunta's jumping height? How about an Oil Flame Bomb from on top of Gamabunta's head while he's jumping? No? He can't go that high, that quickly? Funny how that works.

Jiraiya already summoned 5 bosses. Against Pain. Without any notable or stated signs of fatigue or chakra loss. So it's really not that funny. In fact, it's what would happen in this fight.

Also, the burden of proof is on the person making the initial claims. You are expected to defend your opinion, not have others attack it.

As for your claims of specific manga chapters, I CAN get them for you, but I'd really rather not. xD I'll suffice to say that Naruto summoned the boss toads when he arrived in Konoha as Pain was tearing it a new hole, and Deva ST'd all of them well outside the village's borders with a single blast, and then proceeded to destroy all of Konoha with another ST.

[Phoenix Wright]

It wasn't very long but I made a trial! xD

Spoiler:

We all are here for the court trial of Jiraiya and Deidara v. Narutoverse Battlegrounds. Is the prosecution ready?

The prosecution is ready Your Honor.


The Defense is ready, Your Honor.

Very well, prosecution please give your opening statement.

I'm going to prove why Jiraiya is the guilty one of course.


And I'll be proving why Jiraiya is totally innocent.

Very well, the prosecution may call its first witness.

The prosecution calls Heroeking to the stand.

Very well. Heroeking please state your name and occupation.
"Heroeking Viz Debater"

Originally Posted by heroeking

1.Every summons Jiraiya summons dies from being bombed.
2.All of Jiraiya's ranged jutsu are negated because Deidara is flying.
3.Jiraiya won't even have enough time to summon to many summons considering Deidara is flying and spamming bombs.
4.Sasuke had to use his sharingan to help react to those bombs/
5.Base Sasuke>Sage Jiraiya.
6.Jiraiya can't even touch deidara while flying unless he uses pa's water gun, which he can't use because he will be too busy dodging bombs.

That's it? well, there are some holes in that testimony, he didn't really give me much to work with..

Begin your cross examination but, it's not like you're going to find anything. Simple, Jiraiya is guilty. Deidara, is just a way for your silly defense to trick us from the obvious result. Jiraiya being guilty.

YouTube:

Witness, I'm pretty sure you're underestimating the power of these boss summons. Not only this, but if you'll take a look at the court record, Kuchiyose no jutsu only requires a hand to be placed on the ground, saying Deidara can kill Jiraiya in that time is silly, don't you agree?


This is not the place for opinions, Mr. Wright!

Well you're no help, Edgeworth...then again, isn't that the point?


Now, this is all besides the point. What I really want you to look at is..

The Jiraiya vs Pain fight!


Right here, on the court record if you will. Please turn to, chapter 376 page 8 for me. Please, read it to the court.

Well, uhh, Fukasaku's tongue extends to great lengths. Plus, it also slashes right through the stone and a boss summon.


That's right. So with that we can conclude he should easily be able to reach Deidara no matter the case. This isn't the only proof of that however, it was just one example.


While we're at it witness, please turn to chapter 377, page 7, and 8. Read to the court what is happening.

Well, Pain goes from that really far distance and appears in front of Jiraiya in an instant. Not only does that top Sasuke's shunshin which took time, but Jiraiya reacts effortlessly and send Pain flying back. This vaporizes his eyes completely as well, showing one single hit finishes off Sasuke.


Great job cooperating, witness.

You're trying to trick me, Jiraiya is guilty I tell you I saw it with my own eyes!!!

Well we'll see about that when the trial unfolds!

Anyway, there is also another page I'll direct the court record to, and then for the big reveal for this testimony.

Chapter 378 pages 2 and 3. From this page, we see Jiraiya shunshin and by a single shunshin he's already so far the pipes he can't even be seen by the Pain's, and completely gone. Sasuke shunshin is not only such a short distance but a lot slower to the whole distance Jiraiya was able to reach.


Sasuke isn't fast enough, and neither is Deidara! Jiraiya couldn't have possibly commit the crime!


Lack of evidence won't do you well in court Mr. Wright. Speed won't do you any good if you can't reach Deidara.

I was hoping you'd ask that!

Chapter 377 page 11,12,and 13. What we see here? Simple, Jiraiya drops a sandal, then leaps! Check the pages not too long before to find the humongous distance he leaps, after speaking a full sentence, in Japanese to note! After he says that, and leaps, not only does he create and stabilize a full Chou Odama Rasengan, but he does it all before his sandal hits the ground, even after speaking that long sentence.

YouTube:

Jiraiya is faster, stronger in every possible way! He cannot lose this!

ACH!!!

Looks like THIS will be a much faster trial than usual, Mr. Edgeworth!


You make the von Karma name look bad, son I am disappoint!

Very well, I don't think there's any doubt at this point..
The defendant on account of Losing to Deidara, is declared,

Spoiler:

Guys! I got this!

Do you have something to say.. Heroeking?

Of course I do!!!

[Super Sanin 3]

The farther Deidara flies up, the harder it is to hit Jiraiya with his bombs. C2 dragon also has bad reflexes/flight speeds mostly due to its size. Jiraiya has many jutsu at his disposal to take care of C2 dragon (wild lion's mane, Fukasaku's tounge which extends long distances, and his many collaboration techniques) while it's doubtful any of Deidara's bombs will hit Jiraiya if he's so high. Actually Gamabunta alone has the reflexes and jumping capabilities to destroy the C2 dragon with his sword (SM Jiraiya also has good jumping feats)

[Phoenix Wright]

Oh yeah I can post for real now after that.

@Super Sanin, yeah the dragon never was too fast and if it was as fast as is being exaggerated it should have been able to dodge Chidori Eisou(granted he didn't know it was coming), if Deidara is on his dragon and Jiraiya is way a dot on the ground, he blinks, and Jiraiya is on the Dragon with a rasengan the size of it in his hands, Deidara's screwed.

Jiraiya's way faster than Deidara and stronger in every possibly way, if he starts in SM, WITH Shima and Fukasaku it's just a bigger stomp. It doesn't matter if Deidara was faster though because all it takes is a leap and Chou Odama Rasengan to completely obliterate everything, doesn't really matter where Deidara is.

Then there's underrating boss summons have no idea like a little tiny bomb to them is gonna blow them up, one jump and they're in like space too. Then there's Jiraiya using one for just a step in the first place and then smashing the crap out of Deidara(assuming the summon gets destroyed the second it appears which makes me lol), there's SotU too.

The multiple summons Jiraiya spams which are slashing the crap out of Deidara on his dragon while Jiraiya and Shima and Fukasaku is all there, Deidara's bombs can't do a thing, especially when he'll have to try and occupy with the other 6 huge boss summons destroying Deidara by themselves, yeah it's a rape alright, just not in Deidara's favor.

[SageoftheSixPaths]

Also, we all seem to have forgotten Toad Song. All Jiraiya needs is to get within earshot to trap Deidara in a Genjutsu, and Deidara seems to have normal hearing, meaning Jiraiya only needs to get within a few hundred yards to affect him.

[deidara#1]

Originally Posted by heroeking

I haven't used feats sasuke got after the Deidara fight, but that that's irrelevant.

I never said Deidara > Sasuke > SM Jiraiya, don't assume stuff. I only said Sasuke>SM Jiriaya in speed.

And all you have been using in to prove that Sasuke's speed is better is feats he gain after his fight with Deidara.