The Invention Paradox Debate

[mrsticky005]

Originally Posted by Danielle

I wasn't talking about Nazis. =/ I didn't even mention them. At all. Not all socialists are nazis or even on the same wavelength.

I know you weren't. But I'm just saying even if Jews are a member
of a group doesn't mean that group can't hate on Jews. So even
if some Socialists are Jews doesn't mean that Socialists can't hate
Jews.

True. Not all Socialists are Nazis.
Some are Communists.
Others are Left Wing Radicals.

[deidara330]

Originally Posted by Danielle

I wasn't talking about Nazis. =/ I didn't even mention them. At all. Not all socialists are nazis or even on the same wavelength.

Nazi is actually an acronym. I don't know exactly how it translates, but it goes something like National Socialist Party. Of course, they were hardly socialist at all, but they're who sticky was refering to when he said the National Socialists were particularly racist against Jews, in case you didn't know that.

Anyways, the Nazis weren't Socialist. Any Nazi who thought he was a Socialist was an idiot.

[Danielle]

...Whatever.

[mrsticky005]

Originally Posted by deidara330

Nazi is actually an acronym. I don't know exactly how it translates, but it goes something like National Socialist Party. Of course, they were hardly socialist at all, but they're who sticky was refering to when he said the National Socialists were particularly racist against Jews, in case you didn't know that.

Anyways, the Nazis weren't Socialist. Any Nazi who thought he was a Socialist was an idiot.

I disagree.

[deidara330]

Originally Posted by mrsticky005

I disagree.

How so?

[mrsticky005]

Originally Posted by deidara330

How so?

Do you think Nazis are right wingers?

[deidara330]

Originally Posted by mrsticky005

Do you think Nazis are right wingers?

Is this your explanation of how Nazis are Socialist?

[mrsticky005]

Originally Posted by deidara330

Is this your explanation of how Nazis are Socialist?

Not quite. But it's fairly common belief that Fascism (which is what Nazis and Mussolini Italy and Franco Spain were ) is Right Wing Extremism.
I was wondering if you agree with that. If so could then you explain
how they were right wingers?

[deidara330]

Originally Posted by mrsticky005

Not quite. But it's fairly common belief that Fascism (which is what Nazis and Mussolini Italy and Franco Spain were ) is Right Wing Extremism.
I was wondering if you agree with that. If so could then you explain
how they were right wingers?

I don't know too much about political structure, because I firmly believe politics is stupid, but I have the basic ideas about the different forms of government. I feel that no matter what I believe the Nazis were I have no need to explain that view to be able to say what the Nazis were not. The same goes for much more than simply forms of government.

Although honestly a Google search can tell me as much as I need to know. It looks like many well-informed people identify the Nazis with Right Wing politics. I find many articles that state that the Nazis were actually Socialist to be written in such a way that they're either clearly uninformed or are trying to demonize those who disagree with them. Really, one of the first things that came up said that Nazism being Socialism is "the secret they don't want you to know" which would sound like utter **** even if I agreed with it. And with over-the-top people like that defending the idea that the Nazis were actually Socialist I'm afraid to continue our conversation because I don't want to end up liking you less over politics.

[mrsticky005]

Originally Posted by deidara330

I don't know too much about political structure, because I firmly believe politics is stupid, but I have the basic ideas about the different forms of government. I feel that no matter what I believe the Nazis were I have no need to explain that view to be able to say what the Nazis were not. The same goes for much more than simply forms of government.

Although honestly a Google search can tell me as much as I need to know. It looks like many well-informed people identify the Nazis with Right Wing politics. I find many articles that state that the Nazis were actually Socialist to be written in such a way that they're either clearly uninformed or are trying to demonize those who disagree with them. Really, one of the first things that came up said that Nazism being Socialism is "the secret they don't want you to know" which would sound like utter **** even if I agreed with it. And with over-the-top people like that defending the idea that the Nazis were actually Socialist I'm afraid to continue our conversation because I don't want to end up liking you less over politics.

Again. What makes Nazis right wingers?

Nazis may not be Socialist in the sense of how people think Socialism
works in theory but it is Socialist in how Socialism (doesn't) work in practice. Or in other words. Nazis and the Soviets had a lot more in common than either of the two would have liked to admit. Even if Nazis aren't socialists they are leftists. At least they more much left wing than they are right wing. The idea that Nazism is right wing extremism is a joke.
Right wing advocates for a smaller central government. Left wing advocates for a larger central government. You can't get a much
bigger central government than Nazi Germany. Except maybe Soviet Russia. The farther right wing you go the smaller the size of the
central government will be. For some odd reason people got the
idea that if you go far enough you will have a central government
so small it will be a dictatorship. As if that makes any sense.
If anything is right wing extremism it's Lassiez Faire Capitalism
because there the central government is so small it's told to
stay COMPLETELY out of business. Some think that Nazi
Germany was capitalist. But this would likely be in the
same way that China is capitalist economic wise but
Communist government wise. Except Nazis were not Communists.
In reality Hitler owned all production in Germany. Think he didn't?
Well what do you think would happen to the producer who didn't
make the product as Hitler demanded? Or rather the producer
who made Anti-Hitler products. You think Hitler would let them
stay in business? If you do then I got a bridge in Brooklyn to sell you.
Also another difference between Right and Left is that the Right
seeks to conserve while the left wishes to progress. What were
the Nazis trying to conserve if they were Right Wingers? I'm really
not sure. Because as far as I can tell the Nazis were pretty darn
progressive. At least in the sense that they wanted MAJOR change.
After World War 1, Germany was in economic ruin. They wanted to
progress from that. Far from that. Germans envisioned a
"perfect" Germany that they were trying to progress towards.
This is a bit similar to the leftist who strives towards "pure communism"
and thinks it will somehow achieve world peace. This progression
is the reason for the evils of Nazism. For instance the killing of the
Jews was to progress the ideal German. This also goes along
with their great interest in Eugenics. They wanted to progress
the German person into a better German person. If you think
Eugenics would be right wing philosophy then think about embryonic
stem cell research? Who again are the ones supporting it? The left
that's who. And why? Because they think it will progress the general
welfare of the human species. Pretty much the same line of thinking
of Nazi Eugenics. Some might argue that Nazis can't be socialists
or even leftists because they were nationalists rather than wanting
a classless society. But I don't think the two are necessarily related.
In fact I would say the Soviet Union were Nationalist themselves.
I mean if they weren't then why did they take over almost all of
East Europe against it's will? The Soviets wanted a Soviet Empire
and the Germans wanted a German Empire. Both were inhumane.
And on the topic of the Jews. While Marx wasn't as extreme as
Hitler was he wasn't too fond of the Jews or at the very least
Marx thought that the Jews should stop calling themselves
Jewish and assimilate with the rest of society. Marx wanted
Jews who wouldn't identify as being Jewish but only as Communists.
Even if the Nazis are not Socialists they are most definitely not
right wingers unless of course you wish to distort what right wing
actually means as many do. I also don't think Hitler was a centrist.
If centrism exists it would then be something like libertarianism
or classical liberalism (which is quite different from liberalism today.)
Hitler was most certainly not a libertarian. Even less likely a right
winger. The only thing left for Hitler and the Nazis is...left.

[Wooster]

Nazis are right wing socialist, but that still makes them socialist.
They only difference between left wing socialist (communist) and right wing socialists (Nazi's and Fascists). Is universal vs. nationalism. The commies hated the fascists because they where taking their supporters.

Really the left can be defined as European socialism and to a more virulent form Communism. Defining the right is nearly impossible. Essentially it is anything opposed to the Left even though you are grouping beliefs together that have nothing in common. Most leftists believe in the same thing in lock step. It is the manner in which a Leftist comes to their beliefs mainly that they are more intellgient and better than the general populace, and thus, need to be led by their betters through a central plan.

If the Right is free marketers, Fascists, Royalist, libertarians there is not much you can say to link any of that.

Originally Posted by Danielle

That's not true, there are a lot of Jews in the socialist party, and further more it isn't racism, it is called either antisemitism or bigotry.

There were a lot of Jews in the Italian Fascist party.

[Danielle]

Originally Posted by Wooster

Nazis are right wing socialist, but that still makes them socialist.
They only difference between left wing socialist (communist) and right wing socialists (Nazi's and Fascists). Is universal vs. nationalism. The commies hated the fascists because they where taking their supporters.

Really the left can be defined as European socialism and to a more virulent form Communism. Defining the right is nearly impossible. Essentially it is anything opposed to the Left even though you are grouping beliefs together that have nothing in common. Most leftists believe in the same thing in lock step. It is the manner in which a Leftist comes to their beliefs mainly that they are more intellgient and better than the general populace, and thus, need to be led by their betters through a central plan.

If the Right is free marketers, Fascists, Royalist, libertarians there is not much you can say to link any of that.


There were a lot of Jews in the Italian Fascist party.

Not even what I meant so I don't care.

[deidara330]

Slow down, sticky. All I want to know is why you think the Nazis are Socialists. If you don't think they are, then it's just done. You seem like you're taking this really seriously, and we don't have to do that. The debate train starts going off the tracks in your post, running from "they were Socialism in practice as opposed to the theory of Socialism" to "it's ridiculous to think they were Right Wing and they were very Left for that matter". So let's just do one thing at a time. How were the Nazis Socialist? I'm interested.

[mrsticky005]

Originally Posted by deidara330

Slow down, sticky. All I want to know is why you think the Nazis are Socialists. If you don't think they are, then it's just done. You seem like you're taking this really seriously, and we don't have to do that. The debate train starts going off the tracks in your post, running from "they were Socialism in practice as opposed to the theory of Socialism" to "it's ridiculous to think they were Right Wing and they were very Left for that matter". So let's just do one thing at a time. How were the Nazis Socialist? I'm interested.

I think they were as Socialist as the Soviet Union if that helps
to explain my line of thinking. Now if you don't think the Soviet Union
aka the Union of Soviet Socialist Republic is a Socialist government
then I would say the Nazis weren't Socialists. If you think the Soviet
Union was Socialist (or Communist for that matter) then I would
say Nazi Germany was Socialist too. Though not quite on the same
level. Like Wooster said the Nazis were the "right wing" of Socialism
and/or Leftism. But that doesn't mean they were on the right.
Basically if Communism is extreme leftism and Socialism is moderate
leftism, Nazi Germany would be moderate leftism or close to it.
They would however not be right of center, which would be
command capitalism as the moderate rightism and laissez faire
capitalism as the extreme rightism.

[White Zetsu]

for the time travel thing, the ability to travel back in time does is does not exist in my opinion because of feedback; you would get a massive overload and an explosion only forward time travel is possible without feedback (stephen hawkings theory not mine) and for the Nazi thing

1. NAZI stands for Naational Socialist German Workers Party
2. Extremism on both sides is bad
3. Nazism/Socialism is not extreme right wing because right wingers like lower taxes and dont like the government to have much power
4. Communism/Marxism/Leninism are the extreme left they are the principles which the left go on

[mrsticky005]

Originally Posted by White Zetsu

for the time travel thing, the ability to travel back in time does is does not exist in my opinion because of feedback; you would get a massive overload and an explosion only forward time travel is possible without feedback (stephen hawkings theory not mine) and for the Nazi thing

1. NAZI stands for Naational Socialist German Workers Party
2. Extremism on both sides is bad
3. Nazism/Socialism is not extreme right wing because right wingers like lower taxes and dont like the government to have much power
4. Communism/Marxism/Leninism are the extreme left they are the principles which the left go on

That depends whether right wing extremism
is Laissez Faire Capitalism or Anarchy.
And whether you consider either or bad.

Of course you can always go with the more popular option
of right wing extremism being Fascism. Though I would disagree.

[White Zetsu]

Originally Posted by mrsticky005

That depends whether right wing extremism
is Laissez Faire Capitalism or Anarchy.
And whether you consider either or bad.

Of course you can always go with the more popular option
of right wing extremism being Fascism. Though I would disagree.

your right extreme right wingism is just a hair above anarchy, with gov having just enough power to barely control the people with very few taxes and regs nazism is not as far left as you can go but it is on the left side, the perfect government has about 90% capitalist ideas and about 10% leftist ideas since that is about how much of each work so when you get them together, you get the best government in the world

[mrsticky005]

Originally Posted by White Zetsu

your right extreme right wingism is just a hair above anarchy, with gov having just enough power to barely control the people with very few taxes and regs nazism is not as far left as you can go but it is on the left side, the perfect government has about 90% capitalist ideas and about 10% leftist ideas since that is about how much of each work so when you get them together, you get the best government in the world

Alright so then Laissez Faire would be pretty close to being right wing extremism since it is government having no business in business...it
would just apply to all aspects of life. Except you would still have
laws and such so it's not complete chaos.
Yeah, Nazism is definitely not the farthest left you can go but it's
left of center. Communism if I'm not mistaken is left wing extremism.

90/10, eh?

what would you say the ratio is right now?

[White Zetsu]

for US? around 60/40 and the but all of the bad 10% of capitalist ideas are in there

[Wooster]

Is should be also noted that the progressives of the 20's were all infatuated with both the Fascists and the Communists. They could decide which they liked best. In fact, Woodrow Wilson's War Socialism could quite easily be described as Fascism. Bismarck can probably claim the title to the first Socialist government put into practice.