Spoiler Chapter 538 Discussion

[Poodle]

Originally Posted by Kreegah!

Oh, I'm certain the 9T is far beyond the other biju, 8T being a possible exception. On their own, the beasts were considered instinctual and lacking personality--mere chakra forces if you will, but unlike the kyuubi who has been described as a force of menace--indicating a core of reasoning intent. On that side I can see why the fox is now capable of being humanized, but Vornnegut is right in calling the direction cliche.



Thought it the moment I saw it.

It isn't philosophy; it's an absolute TRUTH.



It's prevalent in ALL media, not just shows. And it's not our fault; it is Kishi's--he has stated in several places he watches tons of shows and movies to get a feel for timing in story structure. Instead of using that knowledge to create something unique, he is just aping the blueprints.

but its such a very small almost benign thing to criticize that is a natural progression of things. Its like me saying "its so predictable Naruto is going to fight Sasuki in the end and sway him with the power of friendship", Kishi is being so generic to the other animes.

I just don't see how thats such a deal to some.

[nightwolf613]

Thought it was interesting but I was hoping for something different. Like Naruto and Bee meet up with Tsunade, etc.

[Vornmusion]

Originally Posted by Poodle

but its such a very small almost benign thing to criticize that is a natural progression of things. Its like me saying "its so predictable Naruto is going to fight Sasuki in the end and sway him with the power of friendship", Kishi is being so generic to the other animes.

I just don't see how thats such a deal to some.

Because some people have standards. Most people that read manga, do not have them. If they did, manga wouldn't be be as popular and sell as well as it does being filled with such generic crap.

[Kreegah!!!]

Originally Posted by Wooster

So you agree. Kishi should read more Greek literature.

Of course. And Hammurabi's laws, too.

I should also amend the list of beast exceptions to Shukaku as well. I'm sure on its own the 1T was powerful yet weaker than the others by a wide margin. However, as the Sunagakure only had one bijuu (compared to Stone and Cloud having two apiece) they needed to amplify it's power some. I'm guessing, based on what very little Kishi's given us (through the eyes and mouths of Gamabunta and Granny Chiyo) that either a host was experimented on itself by the Kage's men, or was subsumed yet not entirely overcome by the 1T. At first I thought it was ret-con for the Jinchuuriki plot line, but now I wonder if there's more to it. Perhaps the guy (can't remember what he was--a priest? A vicar? Who knows?) "melded" with the 1T, giving it some, albeit little, sentience beyond raw instinct. This gave the 1T more focus, and subsequent hosts--while eventually driven insane in ways apparently not suffered by other biju-carriers--were granted more power and control. But this wildly tangential, so ignore this.

(Yes, I do have more I could say.)

Originally Posted by Poodle

but its such a very small almost benign thing to criticize that is a natural progression of things. Its like me saying "its so predictable Naruto is going to fight Sasuki in the end and sway him with the power of friendship", Kishi is being so generic to the other animes.

I just don't see how thats such a deal to some.

Small is inconsequential when it remains one thing in both form and quantity. But like a virus or a cascade of "small" bills, the problems accrue and become a significant threat. In this case, too many cliche plot lines will cripple the story's creative flow and risk a loss of interest by the masses.

Originally Posted by Vornmusion

Because some people have standards. Most people that read manga, do not have them. If they did, manga wouldn't be be as popular and sell as well as it does being filled with such generic crap.

The worst part is that he's shown the potential to make this something awesome and unique, but does not always choose to deliver on that front.

As to manga in general, we both know that extends into every medium available. Publishers need to learn to say NO with more frequency.

[EvL j3st3r]

Originally Posted by soranthalas

Yeah, but I can't see winning over the fox happening in 5 minutes. That should be a major gain and should take a fair bit more effort.

I said form an alliance, not become friends (which of course, would be more drawn out). But what I'm referring to isn't really "winning the fox over". It's just the fox realizing what's best for him. It would be in his best interest to cooperate with Naruto bc if Naruto looses.........the Kyuubi ceases to exist.

[Kakuzu]

Meh, not very interesting... Just Naruto telling off the Nine-Tails...


I wonder when the former Jinchuriki's will launch their attacks? We haven't seen them at all.

[Poodle]

Originally Posted by Vornmusion

Because some people have standards. Most people that read manga, do not have them. If they did, manga wouldn't be be as popular and sell as well as it does being filled with such generic crap.

Well personally i hate the manga readers that expect main characters to die all of the time just because its out of the norm for most shows, or it supposedly makes something more hardcore. Its a big reason why early part of Claymore turned me off and if it kept going that way no way i'd have kept reading it.

But regarding the 9Tails, it was inevitable Naruto would grow up and take charge, if not foster a relationship with it like Bee has. Of course Naruto is scared and the 9Tails is bullying him when he was less secure of himself. Its to me a natural progression where its as normal as someone growing into an adult.

whatever tho. Anyone can interpret it how they want, just disagreeing with you all...

[Wind Style Naruto]

Originally Posted by Vornmusion

Seriously. Went from being "force of nature" status to literally a giant fox that talks status.

Used to think of him like a tsunami or hurricane. I.E A natural disaster, which I know people have referred to the fox as, now he's just another oversized talking animal for all it's worth. Such a shame.

Well Naruto did steal the source of all of his power and now he is powerless.

To me I find this chapter humorous with Naruto failing to diss Sasuke and Shino and Kiba responding in an very humorous.

Also Naruto tricking the Nine Tails like that made me lol.

This flashback is somewhat relevant as it shows Naruto and Sasuke's first encounter and build up to thier final fight. It even showed that at Day 1 Sasuke has always had the darkness in him.

So Naruto is a flashlight.

[Vornmusion]

Originally Posted by Kreegah!

The worst part is that he's shown the potential to make this something awesome and unique, but does not always choose to deliver on that front.

As to manga in general, we both know that extends into every medium available. Publishers need to learn to say NO with more frequency.

Indeed. Every time he's ever had something that could of been unique and interesting, he crushed it. Does the same thing with interesting characters by killing them off at their prime.

Truth enough, it's just that other mediums suffer a huge backlash from this in comparison to manga. The most disgusting part of it though is that despite these backlashes, the masses continue to pay for lackluster movies, novels, manga, video games, music, whatever. Thus insuring that they keep getting the very thing many of whom consider garbage now. Such is the cycle of stupidity mixed with capitalism I guess.

Someone once told me the motto of the world is "Stupid things for stupid people". I dare say he may not be far off in that assessment. But I'm going horribly off-topic now.

Originally Posted by Wind Style Naruto

It even showed that at Day 1 Sasuke has always had the darkness in him.

Something that has been well known to anyone paying the slightest attention to....well the amount of times this has been clearly established is so numerous now that it's part of the main reason these flashbacks are so utterly pointless from a critical readers perspective.

If there's one thing Kishi fails very hard at, it's being subtle in direct and indirect context. The fact he uses such typical plot devices only makes this more so.

[iMario999]

Quite boring but nice.

[Kreegah!!!]

Originally Posted by EvL j3st3r

I said form an alliance, not become friends (which of course, would be more drawn out). But what I'm referring to isn't really "winning the fox over". It's just the fox realizing what's best for him. It would be in his best interest to cooperate with Naruto bc if Naruto looses.........the Kyuubi ceases to exist.

Nah, he just reforms elsewhere after a while. But it's obviously painful because Kyuubi works so hard to avoid it.

Originally Posted by Kakuzu

Meh, not very interesting... Just Naruto telling off the Nine-Tails...


I wonder when the former Jinchuriki's will launch their attacks? We haven't seen them at all.

Naruto TNJ's all of them.

Originally Posted by Poodle

Well personally i hate the manga readers that expect main characters to die all of the time just because its out of the norm for most shows, or it supposedly makes something more hardcore. Its a big reason why early part of Claymore turned me off and if it kept going that way no way i'd have kept reading it.

But regarding the 9Tails, it was inevitable Naruto would grow up and take charge, if not foster a relationship with it like Bee has. Of course Naruto is scared and the 9Tails is bullying him when he was less secure of himself. Its to me a natural progression where its as normal as someone growing into an adult.

whatever tho. Anyone can interpret it how they want, just disagreeing with you all...

I don't want them all knocked off either, but we are far from that extreme--so far, in fact, that your argument is moot.

Originally Posted by Vornmusion

Indeed. Every time he's ever had something that could of been unique and interesting, he crushed it. Does the same thing with interesting characters by killing them off at their prime.

Truth enough, it's just that other mediums suffer a huge backlash from this in comparison to manga. The most disgusting part of it though is that despite these backlashes, the masses continue to pay for lackluster movies, novels, manga, video games, music, whatever. Thus insuring that they keep getting the very thing many of whom consider garbage now. Such is the cycle of stupidity mixed with capitalism I guess.

Someone once told me the motto of the world is "Stupid things for stupid people". I dare say he may not be far off in that assessment. But I'm going horribly off-topic now.



Something that has been well known to anyone paying the slightest attention to....well the amount of times this has been clearly established is so numerous now that it's part of the main reason these flashbacks are so utterly pointless from a critical readers perspective.

If there's one thing Kishi fails very hard at, it's being subtle in direct and indirect context. The fact he uses such typical plot devices only makes this more so.

OK, WoTS Boy II, here we go... Ready for the long-winded reply?

Albert Einstein mentioned that the level of intelligence in the universe remains constant. Too bad our population's growing. It also means we won't see "intelligent life" from extra-solar areas because they are having their intelligence sapped, too.

[Sparky]

Generic story elements?


I don't read much manga and anime but what generic elements that Naruto that is common in most other Shonen and please give examples of other Shonen anime besides Naruto.

[Ur Mom]

Originally Posted by deidara330

I don't get the complaining. In my opinion, the flashback added more depth to the story. Iruka described the symbol of harmony, which he said signified after a spar that the two fighters remained comrades. After Naruto and Sasuke's fight ended, an image of them making this symbol was shown. Even though Sasuke left, they remained comrades.

And I don't get why some people are upset over more emphasis on Sasuke's hatred when this was better than pretty much most of what's been done so far. When Sasuke joined Team 7, his family had been dead for several years. When he fought Naruto in this flashback, it had been a much shorter period of time. There was no point in this chapter where you couldn't see the hatred in Sasuke's eyes. I think it goes to show that after spending even a short time with Team 7, and Naruto in particular, Sasuke really did change.

I felt the comparison Naruto made couldn't have put it better. "Those eyes... The same eyes that everyone looks at me with, but more intense... And he's not looking at me." People look at Naruto with eyes of hatred and disdain, like they wish he didn't exist. Sasuke looks at Itachi like he wants to kill him. He was looking at someone else and all he could see was Itachi. All he could ever think about was how much he wanted to murder his own brother.

Aside from Naruto and Sasuke, the chapter showed more of the rookies from the Academy. I particularly noticed Choji's comment that he wouldn't fight his friend. Years and years later, forced to fight his own sensei... He could hardly spar with his own friends. He had to grow up.Well, actually, it was more of a top view, so it could've been present day. If it means something like that, I'd think it instead was a flashback signifying how they used to be comrades and now their friendship was broken. Could also have been Sasuke recalling their time as comrades and then deciding not to kill Naruto.

My view is that Sasuke didn't kill Naruto because he couldn't kill his friend and came up with the excuse at a later time. He'd already admitted several times by then that he'd come close to Naruto and Team 7, and had already risked their lives for them. Sasuke hated Itachi, and he wanted revenge. However, he only left the village for the power to kill Itachi. If he could've reached the same level of power at the Leaf, he would've, and in fact he would never have broken his ties to Naruto or anyone else in the village. However, he was convinced going to Orochimaru was the only way to get strong enough to kill Itachi. His friendship with Naruto did mean something to him, just not as much as killing Itachi.

However, I honestly believe that he always intended to return to the Leaf Village. Sasuke's not an idiot. If he thought about it for more than five seconds he'd realize that even if he killed Itachi he'd have nowhere to go and no one to be with. I think that he always intended to return after he killed Itachi, because even he should've known that Naruto, Sakura, and Kakashi would accept him back as a Leaf shinobi even after he'd left the village. He could've gone back at any time, and he always had the chance. I feel that Naruto's seemingly failed attempts at getting Sasuke back were actually necessary for Sasuke to keep the feeling that he'd have somewhere to go once his mission of revenge was over.

Sadly, Sasuke knows the truth and he wants to kill everyone in Konoha, but I still feel it's Madara's doing. Personally, whenever he talks about wanting to crush the Leaf, it almost sounds like he's mouthing out Madara's will. If you'll recall, his clan went against him after he opposed Hashirama's leadership and he's hated the Leaf ever since, in fact he tried a direct attack on it once and was actually plotting revenge after that had failed. I truly think that he's using his Sharingan to manipulate Sasuke's confusion and hatred so he can take his own personal revenge on the Leaf through Sasuke.

Even his fight with Danzo was almost directly beneficial to Madara, as Madara had wanted Shisui's eye and would've had it if Danzo didn't crush it. He also had one less nuiscance to worry about thanks to that.

+rep dude

Originally Posted by Namikaze_Naruto

This chapter also brings up another interesting point, in that what if Naruto's chakra does have an affect on 9T? Karin said that his chakra is incredibly warm and bright (special chakra anyone....), and incredibly large compared to virtually the rest of the shinobi world. So maybe 9T taking some of it leads to part of Naruto being implanted in him. When 9T had the larger chakra levels and Naruto borrowed some of it, he took on the 9T eyes. With the situation in reverse now (Naruto having the larger chakra levels and 9T borrowing/stealing it), I'd assume that it is going to work the other way around somehow.

So he's being Naruto-ized

[EvL j3st3r]

Does the same thing with interesting characters by killing them off at their prime.

that I can agree with. Kimmimaru's style and ability are my favorite in the manga but, unfortunately, his time was very short lived. That's a shame. And he was automatically trolled by not being 100% during his time in the story....due to being deathly ill.
Zabuza and Haku are some more of my favorites who where just taken away as soon as they appeared.

Nah, he just reforms elsewhere after a while. But it's obviously painful because Kyuubi works so hard to avoid it.

If Naruto dies the Kyuubi dies. It was thought early in the story that the fox was just a natural disaster that forms under certain circumstances due to the evil of ppl or something like that (can't remember exactly) but then we found out different. It wasn't a natural disaster that struck Konoha. the fox was unleashed on the village by Madara...so (for me) the kyuubi spontaniously forming goes out the window right along with him being a "natural disaster".

But that's not what I was talking about anyway. Madara wants to extract the Kyuubi and revive the Juubi. If that happens, I asume it would be the same as death for the fox bc he would ,in a sense, cease to exist as himself. He would become part of the Ten tails.

[sharingangirl]

I liked this one. Naruto is so close to ending that I don't really mind the flashbacks. I also like how Naruto took charge in this one, and the "wait, he's not looking at me.". I love this stuff, because I'm such a huge character reader that I love stuff like this.

[soranthalas]

Originally Posted by EvL j3st3r

I said form an alliance, not become friends (which of course, would be more drawn out). But what I'm referring to isn't really "winning the fox over". It's just the fox realizing what's best for him. It would be in his best interest to cooperate with Naruto bc if Naruto looses.........the Kyuubi ceases to exist.

Well, that is sorta obvious. He's known that for a while. And he's loaned Naruto some power in part because of this, and in part because he was hoping to take over. But for the Kyuubi to become an ally, Naruto's going to have to convince the Kyuubi that Naruto's way really can work. If he comes to that conclusion, Naruto will have won him over and that's the next step. Not the fox grudgingly giving him power now and then because he "has to".

[EvL j3st3r]

Originally Posted by soranthalas

Well, that is sorta obvious. He's known that for a while. And he's loaned Naruto some power in part because of this, and in part because he was hoping to take over. But for the Kyuubi to become an ally, Naruto's going to have to convince the Kyuubi that Naruto's way really can work. If he comes to that conclusion, Naruto will have won him over and that's the next step. Not the fox grudgingly giving him power now and then because he "has to".

right. that's why this chapter left me disappointed (even tho it was still pretty good). I thought ,at first, that Kishi was going that direction with it (kyuubi seeing that Naruto's way could work and then becoming allies with a common enemy). Then that path just got taken away (at least for now).

But no, I wasn't referring to times like the past where the fox grudgingly gives his power. He doesn't need him to "give" it now anyways. He owns it. But it would definitely help if the fox was cooperative so they could fight as a team and Naruto doesn't have to worry about the fox drawing his chakra dry while he's in RS mode.

[Kreegah!!!]

Originally Posted by EvL j3st3r

that I can agree with. Kimmimaru's style and ability are my favorite in the manga but, unfortunately, his time was very short lived. That's a shame. And he was automatically trolled by not being 100% during his time in the story....due to being deathly ill.
Zabuza and Haku are some more of my favorites who where just taken away as soon as they appeared.
If Naruto dies the Kyuubi dies. It was thought early in the story that the fox was just a natural disaster that forms under certain circumstances due to the evil of ppl or something like that (can't remember exactly) but then we found out different. It wasn't a natural disaster that struck Konoha. the fox was unleashed on the village by Madara...so (for me) the kyuubi spontaniously forming goes out the window right along with him being a "natural disaster".

But that's not what I was talking about anyway. Madara wants to extract the Kyuubi and revive the Juubi. If that happens, I asume it would be the same as death for the fox bc he would ,in a sense, cease to exist as himself. He would become part of the Ten tails.

Zabuza and Haku I lament, but they took up an entire arc, so at least we got to see something.

I am not referring to the biju wive's tales. I'm talking about when Chiyo (I think) was talking about how a host dying kills the bijuu, but the Bijuu doesn't stay permanently dead, it manifests (eventually) elsewhere, back as a mindless beast--which could accurately be described as an elemental force anyway. This is likely why RS did what he did--the Juubi may have been indestructible and undying. Only sealing it piece by piece inside the Reaper would result in any permanent solution--that or dividing it's strength and letting it see the world through other's eyes. It was clearly stated that they never stay dead. Unless Madara extracted Mist boy's bijuu, this also explains why it was running feral and hostless. It also explains that easily overlooked comment early on that this wasn't the first time Akatsuki was attempting to gather all the bijuu.

I have the feeling you're going to make me dig up all this info, too, aren't you?

[Poodle]

Originally Posted by Kreegah!

Nah, he just reforms elsewhere after a while. But it's obviously painful because Kyuubi works so hard to avoid it.



Naruto TNJ's all of them.



I don't want them all knocked off either, but we are far from that extreme--so far, in fact, that your argument is moot.



OK, WoTS Boy II, here we go... Ready for the long-winded reply?

Albert Einstein mentioned that the level of intelligence in the universe remains constant. Too bad our population's growing. It also means we won't see "intelligent life" from extra-solar areas because they are having their intelligence sapped, too.

my point was a lot more than you just addressed. More specifically how Naruto taking charge over 9tails IS a natural progression. To act like its a generic storyline is pretty silly but whatever...

that point about killing off main characters was just an example of what some manga readers tend to think of as "not generic" storylines, that IMO isn't really all that enjoyable to follow in many cases.

[Rezeon]

One of the aspects of the chapter that some people seem to be glossing over was Kyuubi's warning that Naruto was just repeating Nagato's mistakes.

If you recall, when Nagato was a kid he said his biggest concern was protecting his friends and that he would bear any hardship to help them. Well we all know how well that went.

Kyuubi made a pretty good point that Naruto stands a good chance of being overwhelmed by the hatred that he is trying to take onto himself. Considering that Kyuubi is a living embodiment of hate, it makes sense that he would understand the scope of what Naruto is about to be bombarded with.

Naruto has never dealt with personal loss very well, we saw it in the Haku fight, him finding out about Jiraiya's death, and when Pain struck down Hinata. If Kishi has any balls at all, at least one person Naruto cares about is going to be seriously hurt in the near future and we will see if Naruto has really changed or not. (my money is on Tsunade)


As for Kyuubi's portrayal...

When Naruto entered the cage I thought he was going to try and coax Kyuubi into doing the symbol of harmony with him... but alas Naruto instead decided to assert his current dominance.

I'm really not shocked by Kyuubi getting handled like some common pet though. Naruto already took away his bite, so all he has left is his bark.