Spoiler Kabuto is actually a "good" guy.

[Kiseki]

Originally Posted by Err

I will side with Vivi on this. Seems unlikely that Kabuto is putting up an act and is really on the side of the alliance.

I have to agree on this too.

[deidara330]

Kabuto's zombies are losing cause they're losing. Seriously, get over it. There doesn't have to be some secret reason that all the people you expected to win didn't win.

Besides, Kabuto being a "good guy" (even though it isn't actually as simple as everyone being either good or bad to begin with) would be too contradictory to Kabuto's presented motives and to what Kabuto is already capable of.

[Jakropha]

I say Kabuto is the Naruto version of Richard Simmons, really normal at first, then pops out in showtunes and tells you to bust those buns...

And soon Kabuto will run an airliner safety video

[mrsticky005]

Originally Posted by deidara330

Kabuto's zombies are losing cause they're losing. Seriously, get over it. There doesn't have to be some secret reason that all the people you expected to win didn't win.

Besides, Kabuto being a "good guy" (even though it isn't actually as simple as everyone being either good or bad to begin with) would be too contradictory to Kabuto's presented motives and to what Kabuto is already capable of.

Yes there does! It's all a conspriacy...OF LOVE!!!

No it wouldn't. Not anymore than Itachi was.

First there was Itachi Twist.

Now there is the Kabuto Konspiracy Of Love!!

Don't deny it! You can't deny it! It's true!

[mrsticky005]

Originally Posted by Kreegah!

Kabuto Yakushi will be a man of the people. He will crush the Alliance and Madara for not really being for the people. The Kabuto, Killer Bee, and Naruto will reign as a triumvirate under Sai Shaft over the people. The end.

Even better!

[Jakropha]

Originally Posted by mrsticky005

Even better!

Mah boi! This is theory is what all true warriors strive for!

[Kreegah!!!]

I'm glad to receive support. Happens so rarely. Thanks, guys!

[deidara330]

Originally Posted by mrsticky005

Yes there does! It's all a conspriacy...OF LOVE!!!

No it wouldn't. Not anymore than Itachi was.

First there was Itachi Twist.

Now there is the Kabuto Konspiracy Of Love!!

Don't deny it! You can't deny it! It's true!

XD lawlz

But taking it seriously (as I must always do), Itachi's twist was not contradictory at all. I keep telling people, re-read chapter 222. Most of what Itachi says there has a complete double-meaning that fits everything that Madara revealed about him. Meanwhile, Kabuto was already prepared to fight Madara. If he wanted to take down Madara, he would've done so. Kabuto wishes to learn the secret of Rikudo Sennin and desires Sasuke to achieve that end. He may want to kill Madara, but it doesn't mean he's on the Alliance's side at all.

[mrsticky005]

Originally Posted by deidara330

XD lawlz

But taking it seriously (as I must always do), Itachi's twist was not contradictory at all. I keep telling people, re-read chapter 222. Most of what Itachi says there has a complete double-meaning that fits everything that Madara revealed about him. Meanwhile, Kabuto was already prepared to fight Madara. If he wanted to take down Madara, he would've done so. Kabuto wishes to learn the secret of Rikudo Sennin and desires Sasuke to achieve that end. He may want to kill Madara, but it doesn't mean he's on the Alliance's side at all.

I understand all of that. But it still doesn't fit. We're expected to believe
that Itachi cared for Sasuke. The same Itachi that if you don't remember...

Used Tsukiyomi twice to mentally torture Sasuke to the point of fainting.

Broke Sasuke's wrist and beat him like a rag doll.

Used Tsukiyomi to create an illusion that he took Sasuke's eye which while not real, Sasuke could still feel the pain from that.

Even if Itachi was going easy on Sasuke if it wasn't for Sasuke being strong enough and smart enough Sasuke would have been killed.

Scared the living bejeezus out of Sasuke by pretending to steal his eyes.

Lied to Sasuke several times or at least failed to tell the truth.

Nearly made Sasuke kill Naruto even though it was completely unnecessary.

And yet we're supposed to think that Itachi cared for Sasuke. Nonsense.

Kabuto is a saint compared to Itachi.

[deidara330]

Originally Posted by mrsticky005

I understand all of that. But it still doesn't fit. We're expected to believe
that Itachi cared for Sasuke. The same Itachi that if you don't remember...

Used Tsukiyomi twice to mentally torture Sasuke to the point of fainting.

Had to make Sasuke hate him enough.

Broke Sasuke's wrist and beat him like a rag doll.

Sasuke recovered, Itachi managed to drive Sasuke to gain more power with that action.

Used Tsukiyomi to create an illusion that he took Sasuke's eye which while not real, Sasuke could still feel the pain from that.

He had a part to play there. He fought Sasuke in a battle where he knew he had to die, he couldn't make a wrong move and he certainly couldn't appear for one second he wasn't trying. He used the falsity of wanting to steal Sasuke's eyes to distract Sasuke from Itachi's true goal in the fight.

Even if Itachi was going easy on Sasuke if it wasn't for Sasuke being strong enough and smart enough Sasuke would have been killed.

If it wasn't for Susano'o Itachi would be dead. Itachi can't predict every single move in the fight, the fight itself creates massive risks. Itachi's success in being defeated is a great achievement, actually.

Scared the living bejeezus out of Sasuke by pretending to steal his eyes.

See my above response(s).

Lied to Sasuke several times or at least failed to tell the truth.

Like he could ever tell Sasuke the truth.

Nearly made Sasuke kill Naruto even though it was completely unnecessary.

I'm not certain Itachi knew there was another way, and besides that Itachi probably didn't think it would cause too much pain. Sasuke says he spared Naruto on a whim, which (if we assume is true) means that it was no trouble for Sasuke to try and kill his closest friend.

And yet we're supposed to think that Itachi cared for Sasuke. Nonsense.

Kabuto is a saint compared to Itachi.

Itachi gave Sasuke the Mangekyo, implanted the Amaterasu in him, and if it weren't for Itachi, Sasuke wouldn't be nearly as strong as he is now. Think deeply about it: Had Madara not revealed the truth, what would have happened? Sasuke would've returned to the Leaf, welcomed back almost heroically for defeating many of the Leaf's biggest threats. He would easily be a Jonin of the Leaf and a great ally. Naruto and Sasuke would still be working together. Hebi could even have become Leaf allies themselves, except possibly Suigetsu as his true goal was to obtain the Mist Swordsmans' seven swords. Sasuke did go through hell because of what Itachi did, but after it was all over, Sasuke would have years and years ahead of him to cruise on by with the knowledge and power he gained through his quest for revenge. I don't mean to glorify the events of what happened, but Itachi caring for Sasuke could probably just be considered "ninja tough love". Itachi never dealt anything permanently damaging to Sasuke in physical terms, and if Sasuke had felt that he'd truly achieved his revenge, he would probably be a lot better than he has been since Shippuden. Really, if anything Madara is an SOB for telling Sasuke the truth only to get Sasuke to join his cause and go against the Leaf.

You can't even compare them. Itachi killed his entire clan to prevent a Fourth Great Ninja War; Meanwhile, Kabuto has allied with the side that instigated the exact same war, and has used dead shinobi to kill hundreds - if not thousands - on the Alliance's side. He also forced the same dead shinobi to become cold-blooded murder machines. Do you honestly believe that Kabuto is a saint compared to anyone?

[Kreegah!!!]

I do, yes.

[mrsticky005]

I understand all of that. But it still doesn't fit. We're expected to believe
that Itachi cared for Sasuke. The same Itachi that if you don't remember...

Used Tsukiyomi twice to mentally torture Sasuke to the point of fainting.

Had to make Sasuke hate him enough.

No. First of all Sasuke ALREADY hated him with the first Tsukiyomi.
The second one was completely unnecessary. The REAL reason
that Itachi did it was for the lawlz. Itachi WAS evil but then Kishimoto
retconned him into a good guy. But besides there was never was a
point to having Sasuke hate him anyways. What? So Sasuke will
fight Itachi? What's the point of that? NOTHING. Itachi could have
just transferred his powers to Sasuke without a fight anyways.
After all he transferred powers to Naruto without much of a fight.
But in any case even if he did have to fight Sasuke he could
have done without the torture all those years.

Broke Sasuke's wrist and beat him like a rag doll.

Sasuke recovered, Itachi managed to drive Sasuke to gain more power with that action.

Again it was unnecessary and cruel. The whole you must hate me to get stronger was fine when Itachi was a bad guy because even if it didn't
make a whole lot of sense then it didn't have to. Itachi was a bad guy.
But now Itachi is apparently a "good" guy it makes even less sense.
There are million other ways than torture to make your little brother stronger.


Used Tsukiyomi to create an illusion that he took Sasuke's eye which while not real, Sasuke could still feel the pain from that.

He had a part to play there. He fought Sasuke in a battle where he knew he had to die, he couldn't make a wrong move and he certainly couldn't appear for one second he wasn't trying. He used the falsity of wanting to steal Sasuke's eyes to distract Sasuke from Itachi's true goal in the fight.

Yeah I get all that. Still the whole fight was unnecessary. All Itachi needed to do was transfer his powers to Sasuke. He could have done that from
the very beginning (again see how he transferred powers to Naruto like it was nothing.) There was no point to Itachi's show besides to mess with
Sasuke's mind.


Even if Itachi was going easy on Sasuke if it wasn't for Sasuke being strong enough and smart enough Sasuke would have been killed.

If it wasn't for Susano'o Itachi would be dead. Itachi can't predict every single move in the fight, the fight itself creates massive risks. Itachi's success in being defeated is a great achievement, actually.

But who drove Sasuke to use Kirin in the first place? Itachi that's who.
If Itachi ACTUALLY wanted Sasuke to just kill him then he should
have just not fight back. Seriously Sasuke is not going to figure
out that Itachi is somehow good from that. Especially when Itachi
tortured him in the past. The whole fight was more for the reader's sake.
(Which by the way I'm not complaining about. The fight was great.)


Scared the living bejeezus out of Sasuke by pretending to steal his eyes.

See my above response(s).

Saw them.

Lied to Sasuke several times or at least failed to tell the truth.

Like he could ever tell Sasuke the truth.

Actually he could. Perhaps Sasuke wouldn't believe him but it's not like
torturing Sasuke is going to help the case at all. Also he never had to tell Sasuke anything. But nope, Itachi had to mess with Sasuke's head
because he "cared" for him.

Nearly made Sasuke kill Naruto even though it was completely unnecessary.

I'm not certain Itachi knew there was another way, and besides that Itachi probably didn't think it would cause too much pain. Sasuke says he spared Naruto on a whim, which (if we assume is true) means that it was no trouble for Sasuke to try and kill his closest friend.

Obviously Itachi DID know there was another way as he transferred his MS to Sasuke WITHOUT Sasuke actually killing him. But in any case it was
unnecessary as Sasuke and Itachi were still able to have their duel despite
the fact that Sasuke never got MS. Itachi made such a big deal out of
Sasuke needing to get MS for their fight and yet Sasuke was able to
make do without it and to top it off he gave Sasuke MS at the end
anyways. The whim thing is just Sasuke trying to save face. Sasuke
chidoried Naruto through the lung and was intentionally aiming for
his heart. It's not that Sasuke didn't kill Naruto on a whim. It's that
Sasuke COULDN'T kill Naruto because Nine Tails kept bringing Naruto
back to life.

And yet we're supposed to think that Itachi cared for Sasuke. Nonsense.

Kabuto is a saint compared to Itachi.

Originally Posted by deidara330

Itachi gave Sasuke the Mangekyo, implanted the Amaterasu in him, and if it weren't for Itachi, Sasuke wouldn't be nearly as strong as he is now.


Sure but he didn't have to fight Sasuke to do all that. But even if he did he never had to torture Sasuke to do all that. Even if Sasuke never sought
out Itachi. Itachi could have (pretended to) attack Sasuke. Sasuke
would have to fight back and then Itachi could transfer the powers,
purposefully lose and make Sasuke the big hero.

Or Itachi could have solved all of this by having himself, Danzo, Hiruzen and others just go and fight Madara. It would be a lot more effective
and lot less cruel than all this roundabout nonsense. The only reason
that doesn't happen is because Kishimoto wants Naruto and Sasuke to have their big fight.

Think deeply about it: Had Madara not revealed the truth, what would have happened? Sasuke would've returned to the Leaf, welcomed back almost heroically for defeating many of the Leaf's biggest threats. He would easily be a Jonin of the Leaf and a great ally. Naruto and Sasuke would still be working together. Hebi could even have become Leaf allies themselves, except possibly Suigetsu as his true goal was to obtain the Mist Swordsmans' seven swords.

First the problem is that Madara DID reveal the truth and Itachi would be an idiot if he didn't see that one coming from a million miles away. (Though given the stop gap measure Amaterasu attack on Madara he obviously did see it coming.) But clearly Amaterasu was not enough to fight Madara.
Itachi's plan was all but failed right there. His only hope was Naruto.

But even if Madara did not reveal the truth, I seriously doubt any of that would happen. Nobody but Sasuke wanted Sasuke to kill Itachi. Only
Sasuke wanted that. In fact most of Konoha seemed rather displeased
at Sasuke for abandoning the village. Maybe Naruto would forgive
Sasuke but that's because Naruto is a REALLY good friend.
Tsunade would probably be lenient on Sasuke but I don't think
even she would reward Sasuke for all the trouble he caused.
All that would happen is what Kakashi said. Sasuke would feel empty.

Sasuke did go through hell because of what Itachi did, but after it was all over, Sasuke would have years and years ahead of him to cruise on by with the knowledge and power he gained through his quest for revenge.

Either that or Sasuke would be mentally unstable for the rest of his life.

I don't mean to glorify the events of what happened, but Itachi caring for Sasuke could probably just be considered "ninja tough love". Itachi never dealt anything permanently damaging to Sasuke in physical terms, and if Sasuke had felt that he'd truly achieved his revenge, he would probably be a lot better than he has been since Shippuden.

I tried to think of it as ninja tough love too before it just doesn't work out.
Itachi's torturing of Sasuke was unnecessary and cruel. Itachi doesn't
have to permanently physically damage Sasuke. The sheer mental
torture he did Sasuke was bad enough. The idea that Sasuke would
be happy at all after Itachi died is bogus. Right before Madara revealed
the truth Sasuke did not look happy at all. In fact the only time
Sasuke smiled is when the lightning flashes and you can clearly
see that Sasuke has gone mad with vengeance.
Itachi drove Sasuke into insanity and is therefore a terrible big brother.

Really, if anything Madara is an SOB for telling Sasuke the truth only to get Sasuke to join his cause and go against the Leaf.

Madara telling the truth is actually the kindest thing he's done. Now of course Madara has his own diabolical reasons for doing so but it was
more caring than anything Itachi did for Sasuke since the massacre.
Madara is a SOB for lying about Nine Tails attack and for being the
person who actually forced the massacre to happen. If Itachi
didn't mentally screw up Sasuke so badly, Sasuke might be able
to see how Madara and not Konoha is the one he should destroy.

You can't even compare them.

Sure I can.

Itachi killed his entire clan to prevent a Fourth Great Ninja War;

Nope. Itachi is a failure. There's no way around it. Naruto however will be Itachi's "redemption". But here's how Itachi is a failure. Itachi had to
choose between the clan and the village. If he chose the clan then there would be war. If he chose the village then there would be a massacre.
Itachi chose Sasuke and looked what happened. Not only was there a massacre but now there's also the Fourth Great Ninja War and Sasuke
is on the bad team. Wow! Great going Itachi!

Meanwhile, Kabuto has allied with the side that instigated the exact same war, and has used dead shinobi to kill hundreds - if not thousands - on the Alliance's side. He also forced the same dead shinobi to become cold-blooded murder machines. Do you honestly believe that Kabuto is a saint compared to anyone?

Compared to Itachi I do. Sure Kabuto is siding with Madara for the moment but what did Itachi do? Join Akatsuki. Itachi did basically nothing to stop Madara. But Kabuto is doing something. Blackmail. Even if Kabuto is doing all this for his own purposes it beats Itachi's "selflessnes" any day of the week. If it wasn't for Kabuto then Madara probably would have already captured Killer Bee and Naruto and the war would have been lost.
Meanwhile what did Itachi ever do to keep Madara in check?
A failed Amaterasu attack? Yeah. Great job Itachi.


Itachi is a failure.

red

[Wooster]

Essentially what Sticky is saying is Kishimoto wanted a surprise that Itachi was good, but completely flubbed it.

It is quote apparent to me that before the Valley of End, Kishi was going to have Itachi be evil. Essentially, he was to be Madara.

The meeting with Naruto makes that clear. Itachi didn't give a rat's ass about Sasuke he was just in the way, but Sasuke wouldn't leave Itachi alone; therefore, Itachi had to teach him a lesson.

Itachi wasn't a visceral evil like Kisame, but he did not want to fight if he did not have to, but a violence was fine to achieve his goals or discover his powers. As he wanted to fight a strong Sasuke, toturing him makes sense from the evil Itachi's perceptive. It makes none from good Itachi's perspective. Itachi didn't want Sasuke to succumb to evil, but he kept goading him into it.

Itachi Twist stands as my thread from the past made clear.

[mrsticky005]

Originally Posted by Wooster

Essentially what Sticky is saying is Kishimoto wanted a surprise that Itachi was good, but completely flubbed it.

It is quote apparent to me that before the Valley of End, Kishi was going to have Itachi be evil. Essentially, he was to be Madara.

The meeting with Naruto makes that clear. Itachi didn't give a rat's ass about Sasuke he was just in the way, but Sasuke wouldn't leave Itachi alone; therefore, Itachi had to teach him a lesson.

Itachi wasn't a visceral evil like Kisame, but he did not want to fight if he did not have to, but a violence was fine to achieve his goals or discover his powers. As he wanted to fight a strong Sasuke, toturing him makes sense from the evil Itachi's perceptive. It makes none from good Itachi's perspective. Itachi didn't want Sasuke to succumb to evil, but he kept goading him into it.

Itachi Twist stands as my thread from the past made clear.

Link to the Itachi Twist thread?

[Wooster]

Hmm, I think this thread. My first mention must be here:
http://naruto.viz.com/forum/showpost...5&postcount=38

I forgot this important point, There is no way Itachi could have known Tsuande would be around to cure Sasuke. As far as Itachi knew, he put Sasuke in a permanent coma.

I might have made a parody thread too, let me see.

[mrsticky005]

Originally Posted by Wooster

Hmm, I think this thread. My first mention must be here:
http://naruto.viz.com/forum/showpost...5&postcount=38

I forgot this important point, There is no way Itachi could have known Tsuande would be around to cure Sasuke. As far as Itachi knew, he put Sasuke in a permanent coma.

I might have made a parody thread too, let me see.

bit approved