Theological Seminar: Is the Beast of Revelations human?

[Jutsu Junkie]

Originally Posted by mrsticky005

What makes you think humans don't have free will?

Well, a portion of my reasoning can be found here. However, that is not the whole of it. It is self-evident that our so-called "free will" is hugely constrained, even when one admits of its existence. So much so, that its value is questionable, it's reality tenuous, like all illusions. I do not even believe that it is as real as gossamer. There is no phenomena which one can point to and say "there goes free will," for any action can be explained by both physical and metaphysical bias. Free will is the last myth of science.

Further, it is hard to make a case for true freedom of will until you can make a case for truly random events, which most scientists do not believe exist. There are physical events which we do not have the power of calculation to divine, but they are not truly random, as there is a method to calculate them were the computing power available. Without true randomness, freedom from deep environmental control of your actions at any level is impossible. Even then, the law that would allow for such true randomness would constrain you. With such deep constraints, whose will is free? Do we call a man shackled to a wall free? No. Then why is a man shackled by physics free?

There are biblical reasons to deny the existence of free will as well. I will get into that a bit later.

EDIT: here's another article that supports my assertions.

"People often act in order to realize desired outcomes, and they assume that consciousness drives that behavior. But the field now challenges the idea that there is only a conscious will. Our actions are very often initiated even though we are unaware of what we are seeking or why."

If you don't know what you are after or why, the decisions that follow from such a state are not a manifestation of "free will." They are the result of mental automata out of your control.

Do we just have the illusion of free will? Probably.

[mrsticky005]

If we're not in control of our own actions then who or what is?

[Jutsu Junkie]

In the context of a world where free will doesn't exist, that is almost like asking "who controls the sun's radiation," to which I would answer "God." However, it diverges from that in that we are having a subjective experience. Unless you are an animist or a pantheist (and perhaps not even then), you do not believe this of the sun. I should make it clear that I do not find our subjective experience of no value, nor do I believe the choices we make are meaningless. I simply dispute the degree and nature of our freedom. What most people mean by "free will" is "free moral agent," someone who is responsible for the moral content of their actions (not just their thoughts). But I don't believe we have enough freedom to gain such responsibility. In fact, only freedom can justify any level of responsibility. Your boss can't ask you to be responsible for locking up the store at night if he will not give you the keys. That is why I said the value of our "free will" is dubious and its reality tenuous: it is so constrained that our culpability for its consequences is practically vapor. However, we need to take it seriously, just as a man who cannot wake from a dream needs to take his dream seriously -- even though he knows it's not real. The key to the value of "free will" is that we inescapably experience the illusion, and thus we need to strive in the manner we can to guide ourselves to the best possible end. After all, in a dream nails still hurt when you step on them.

So that brings us back to the Antichrist. This is what the Bible says about events in the world and their cause:

Isaiah 45:7 (King James Version)
I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.

[mrsticky005]

Originally Posted by Jutsu Junkie

In the context of a world where free will doesn't exist, that is almost like asking "who controls the sun's radiation," to which I would answer "God." However, it diverges from that in that we are having a subjective experience. Unless you are an animist or a pantheist (and perhaps not even then), you do not believe this of the sun. I should make it clear that I do not find our subjective experience of no value, nor do I believe the choices we make are meaningless. I simply dispute the degree and nature of our freedom. What most people mean by "free will" is "free moral agent," someone who is responsible for the moral content of their actions (not just their thoughts). But I don't believe we have enough freedom to gain such responsibility. In fact, only freedom can justify any level of responsibility. Your boss can't ask you to be responsible for locking up the store at night if he will not give you the keys. That is why I said the value of our "free will" is dubious and its reality tenuous: it is so constrained that our culpability for its consequences is practically vapor. However, we need to take it seriously, just as a man who cannot wake from a dream needs to take his dream seriously -- even though he knows it's not real. The key to the value of "free will" is that we inescapably experience the illusion, and thus we need to strive in the manner we can to guide ourselves to the best possible end. After all, in a dream nails still hurt when you step on them.

So that brings us back to the Antichrist. This is what the Bible says about events in the world and their cause:

Would you say that God then controls our actions?

However if God controls our actions shouldn't God be responsible for our actions? If God controls our actions then why would God cause us to
do that which God is displeased with? Should we be perfect then?

We have free will. We have the ability to choose what God loves (Good) and what God hates (evil). Nobody but ourselves makes this choice.

God did create evil as God created everything. However God does not make us choose evil and if we choose evil it is our own fault. God created
evil because without evil there can be no good. Good is good because
it is better than the alternative which is evil. Without the choice
to choose good or evil we would have no freedom. Without freedom
there can be no love. Without love, God just created some fancy toys.


Though how do we not have enough freedom?

[Jutsu Junkie]

God controls all action. We have the ability to make a choice and reflect upon it, but not the power to affect that choice independently. Even science says that our actions are not the province of conscious will. People often do things that run counter to logic and their conscious purpose, such as the compulsive behavior of addicts, flashes of insight, etc. But as my citations show, these unconscious behaviors are not limited to the actions we all know run counter to our "will." Our subconscious, a mechanism not under our control, directs our lives, while our conscious mind provides us with the illusion that all our actions are its product. Nothing could be further from the truth.

The purpose of the Law was to show us that we couldn't measure up, to leave things in God's hands, where they were from the beginning. God is pleased when you choose for Him, but you cannot actually act for him. He is the author of all action:

Jeremiah 10:23 (New King James Version)

23 O LORD, I know the way of man is not in himself;
It is not in man who walks to direct his own steps.

God is pleased or displeased with our choices, not our actions, which are his. Yet when most people speak of free will they are speaking of the capability to bring their wills to fruition in the world. We do not have that freedom. In point of fact, much of our freedom is simply in judging our desires, not in choosing our desires. Desires are the predicate for will, otherwise we would have nothing to will, but we do not choose our desires, because their seat is emotion, and emotions are beyond our immediate control. We can learn patterns of control, but our subconscious undermines even these. In people with manic depression, even these poor control patterns are distorted and even totally compromised. Thus our "free will" is truly constrained and feeble, measured against its substrate. The illusion of free will is only a component of the mind, not its whole.

Isaiah 46:10 (New King James Version)

10 Declaring the end from the beginning,
And from ancient times things that are not yet done,
Saying, ‘My counsel shall stand,
And I will do all My pleasure,’

God doesn't prize your actions. He doesn't require your reasoning for the purpose of good and evil. Like a painter, he has placed every stroke, chosen every mix of colors. Good and evil do exist for contrast, but not because we do one or the other, or so we can know one or the other. The purpose of that contrast is Divine Mercy, not your free will:

Romans 11:32 (New King James Version)

32 For God has committed them all to disobedience, that He might have mercy on all.

He authored history in order to show mercy to us, because it is His delight:

Micah 7:18 (New King James Version)

18 Who is a God like You,
Pardoning iniquity
And passing over the transgression of the remnant of His heritage?

He does not retain His anger forever,
Because He delights in mercy.

This cosmic kabuki dance is for our benefit. Ultimately, the disposition of our souls are forged by the causal coil into which we have been born, guided by the grace and mercy of God. God is love(1 John 4:8), but love requires both a subject and an object. It is relational. That is our ultimate purpose: to be the beloved of God, and being beloved to love (because love works both ways).

[mrsticky005]

Originally Posted by Jutsu Junkie

God controls all action. We have the ability to make a choice and reflect upon it, but not the power to affect that choice independently. Even science says that our actions are not the province of conscious will. People often do things that run counter to logic and their conscious purpose, such as the compulsive behavior of addicts, flashes of insight, etc. But as my citations show, these unconscious behaviors are not limited to the actions we all know run counter to our "will." Our subconscious, a mechanism not under our control, directs our lives, while our conscious mind provides us with the illusion that all our actions are its product. Nothing could be further from the truth.

The purpose of the Law was to show us that we couldn't measure up, to leave things in God's hands, where they were from the beginning. God is pleased when you choose for Him, but you cannot actually act for him. He is the author of all action:



God is pleased or displeased with our choices, not our actions, which are his. Yet when most people speak of free will they are speaking of the capability to bring their wills to fruition in the world. We do not have that freedom. In point of fact, much of our freedom is simply in judging our desires, not in choosing our desires. Desires are the predicate for will, otherwise we would have nothing to will, but we do not choose our desires, because their seat is emotion, and emotions are beyond our immediate control. We can learn patterns of control, but our subconscious undermines even these. In people with manic depression, even these poor control patterns are distorted and even totally compromised. Thus our "free will" is truly constrained and feeble, measured against its substrate. The illusion of free will is only a component of the mind, not its whole.



God doesn't prize your actions. He doesn't require your reasoning for the purpose of good and evil. Like a painter, he has placed every stroke, chosen every mix of colors. Good and evil do exist for contrast, but not because we do one or the other, or so we can know one or the other. The purpose of that contrast is Divine Mercy, not your free will:



He authored history in order to show mercy to us, because it is His delight:



This cosmic kabuki dance is for our benefit. Ultimately, the disposition of our souls are forged by the causal coil into which we have been born, guided by the grace and mercy of God. God is love(1 John 4:8), but love requires both a subject and an object. It is relational. That is our ultimate purpose: to be the beloved of God, and being beloved to love (because love works both ways).

Then if God is in control why is God not responsible for what God makes us do? If we are not in control of what we do how can we ever be held
accountable?

[Jutsu Junkie]

Originally Posted by mrsticky005

Then if God is in control why is God not responsible for what God makes us do? If we are not in control of what we do how can we ever be held
accountable?

Now you are beginning to see why I am a universalist. Like I said, God is responsible for what we do, but He is not responsible for what we think.

Our conscious minds are not the illusion I mentioned, just the belief that our conscious will controls our lives, thus making our will "free." So how we respond to the world in our controlled thoughts is that for which we are held accountable. If on impulse you become enraged at a murderer, this does not condemn you. Dwelling on the anger, feeding it, and plotting to carry out revenge is what condemns you.

While dwelling on anger is a sin, you will not be destroyed for your sins, just purified of them. But I'm not going to tell you that purification is pleasant. Neither is being spanked by your Pops. Both have a good purpose behind them, and neither lasts forever. As you can imagine, I have a laundry list of citations to support that position as well...

[TheTrueMasterofIllusions]

I've really never gotten the thing about the Anti-Christ or 666. Please Explain

[Jutsu Junkie]

"Here is wisdom. Let him who has understanding calculate the number of the beast, for it is the number of a man: His number is 666."
Revelation 13:17-18

It is theorized by some to be Nero, because the Emperor Nero of Rome sanctioned and funded the persecution of Christians; every letter in the Greek alphabet was also a number, and the sum of Nero's name in Greek script is 666. Revelation was written in Greek.

The Book of Revelation is heavy with poetic and symbolic imagery, and therefore cannot be read in a literal sense from beginning to end. There is debate in theological circles as to its nature: is it a book of prophecy or history? I tend to think of it as primarily an allegorical take on the writer's contemporary Roman history, but others disagree. As to the Antichrist, he is a political leader that rises up in the book, resembling Christ in many ways, while secretly working against Christ's purpose and denying the ultimate salvation.

[colorles]

what do you feel about 'possesion'?

[Jutsu Junkie]

Originally Posted by colorles

what do you feel about 'possesion'?

Since I am a universalist, I believe possession is impossible since Christ's sacrifice, and perhaps before it in a manner. I do not believe the saved can be possessed, which is the general belief in most reformed circles, although we differ on just who is saved and the mechanism by which that happens.