300 Spartans vs 300 Shinsengumi

[Ninja of Cao]

The Spartans were 300 in one of their most famous battles against Persia, and the Shinsengumi organization consisted of 300 men as well. So I figured I would put this thread up. Who would win?

Spartan hoplite:

The Spartan armies consisted of specially trained Greek hoplites that had been taught to handle any combat situation and fight using any strategy. They favored the Phalanx, a perfect square of 16x16 men with the three front ranks aiming their long pikes forward and presenting a solid wall of spear edges towards the enemy. This was a powerful formation to resist front attacks and disorganized infantry charges, but it was slow moving and had very poor maneuverability. As all Greek city states, they were also a common user of the extremely heavily armored Cataphracts; Heavy cavalry armed with long spears and maces, but very slow moving for a mounted unit. Heavy, powerful, good quality - that was the three factors that Sparta favored in their men. They were slow moving and few, but very effective even against larger armies. The Spartan army was the most powerful of the Greek city states, and their only major defeat was during Alexander the Great's annexation of Greece. A Spartan soldier's armor was made of bronze and they often had unique helmets with special forms. A red coat was also a symbol that differed the Spartans from regular Greek hoplites.

Shinsengumi samurai:

In the 19th century, the emperor of Japan was only a symbolic ruler while the shogun had the real power, and a revolution began led by emperor Meiji as an attempt to reclaim the throne. His westernized army easily crushed all shogunate resistance -except one. A group of samurai known as the Shinsengumi stood their ground against the revolutionaries, with devastating results. Despite being only 300 swordsmen, they easily defeated all opposition until they were forced into exile after the shogun's surrender. The main objective for the Shinsengumi was originally to keep order in the bloody streets of Kyoto and protect the population from the Ishin Shishi (revolutionary samurai), but even if they were police they could be more devastating than any military force. They are and will remain the best trained swordsmen in world history. A basic Shinsengumi soldier had no armor, but was dressed in a uniform consisting of a freely colored kimono, covered by a blue coat with white mountain stripes and a white headband with a blue stripe in the middle. Armament could consist of katana or tachi (long swords), wakizashi or kodachi (short swords), rochin (short spear with harpoon edge), yumi (longbow), yari (long spear or staff), or in some cases firearms. However the katana was the most common weapon and was used by all the 10 Shinsengumi captains. The motto of the Shinsengumi was Aku Soku Zan ("All evil must die").

My own battle calculation:

Spartans:
. Heavy armor and large shields
. Training time is from the age of 8 to 20.
. Long pikes and short swords.
. Cavalry support.
. Phalanxes are invincible at the front, but vulnerable to flank attacks.

Shinsengumi:
. No armor to allow maximum mobility.
. Training time is from the age of 5 and continues until death.
. Long swords supported by firearms.
. No cavalry.
. Experts at indiviual fighting against multiple opponents.

Result:
. Japanese swords are basically unstoppable, so Spartan heavy armor is nothing but a movement penalty.
. Shinsengumi have superior training.
. Spartans have long spears but Shinsengumi have firearms.
. Spartan cavalry can be destructive against the Shinsengumi swordsmen.
. Sparta victors in a frontal attack on the field, while Shinsengumi victors if the Spartan formation are broken or outflanked.

[Ninja of Cao]

I personally vote for the Shinsengumi.

[Dark A. Jeagerjaquez]

Spartans


there we go

[Akatsuki X]

One on one, Shinsengumi take this.

Larger numbers, and a full on army vs. army battle, Spartan's win with superior battle planning, armor, shields, and greater weapon range with spear.

[Ninja of Cao]

Originally Posted by Akatsuki X

One on one, Shinsengumi take this.

Larger numbers, and a full on army vs. army battle, Spartan's win with superior battle planning, armor, shields, and greater weapon range with spear.

I guess that depends. If the Spartans use the Phalanx formation they can easily be outflanked by the more mobile Shinsengumi troops.
Also, there was a squad of the Shinsengumi using firearms.

[tanduhman]

spartans should be able to take this as a team... shield wall for the WIN!

[Akatsuki X]

Originally Posted by Ninja of Tao

I guess that depends. If the Spartans use the Phalanx formation they can easily be outflanked by the more mobile Shinsengumi troops.
Also, there was a squad of the Shinsengumi using firearms.

It just seems like the Spartan's are more adapt to large scale battles.

It would depend on how many of the Shinsengumi had firearms, and what firearms they possessed.

[Elder Aneko]

the Shinsengumi guys probably

[Ninja of Cao]

Originally Posted by Akatsuki X

It just seems like the Spartan's are more adapt to large scale battles.

It would depend on how many of the Shinsengumi had firearms, and what firearms they possessed.

30 men with Japanese rifles model 1865 and 1 captain with a hand-held grenade launcher.

[gama-sennin]

Allowing firearms makes this battle highly unfair.

Also the Phalanx formation has a weakness for rear-side attack. The shinsengumi are faster and will definitely exploit this weakness.

But if there is something like a wall to guard the rear the the Spartans win in close combat.

[Ninja of Cao]

Originally Posted by gama-sennin

Allowing firearms makes this battle highly unfair.

Also the Phalanx formation has a weakness for rear-side attack. The shinsengumi are faster and will definitely exploit this weakness.

But if there is something like a wall to guard the rear the the Spartans win in close combat.

The Spartans have cavalry as a response to the Shinsengumi firearms. Cavalry units are fast moving and more difficult to hit, except when charging towards a firing line.

You are right that the fast moving Shinsengumi units can easily outflank the Spartan Phalanx, break their lines, and will easily beat them when the close sword fights begin.

[Sazabi24]

Phalanx meets Massed musket fire.

[Ninja of Cao]

Originally Posted by Sazabi24

Phalanx meets Massed musket fire.

A Phalanx supported by heavy cavalry vs lightly equipped infantry supported by covering fire from rifles and a repeating grenade launcher.

[Sazabi24]

Phalanx meets canister shot.