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Old 08-09-2010, 07:16 PM   #21
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Default Re: It's a perfect world we live in. Or maybe not.

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Originally Posted by Blind Uchiha View Post
You are assuming that humanity would be an exact copy of the Creator. If it isn't, then my statement still stands.

I agree that depending on it's origins, it is a fascinating paradox.
"Created in His image" would mean that they were created in G-d's image, no? That implies that they are, in fact, projections of G-d Himself. However, if they are imperfect, that means that some aspect of G-d was/is imperfect, which is contradictory to all Abrahamic faiths.


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Because the fruit was from the one tree God told them not to eat from. The Devil tricked Eve into tricking Adam into eating the fruit from the tree. Therefore, God sent them to Earth as their punishment. And being that they were the only people on Earth, they had about 500 kids, and so one, and so on. But the fact is, they both sinned, and they pretty much pasted their sins to their children, and their children to their children, etc.
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God told them not to eat off the forbidden tree.
Satan tempted them after God clearly said don't.
Says who? The Bible? The Bible that was written by HUMANS?

Well, I already see a problem with that right off the bat.

As for the actual story, I know the Bible front to back pretty damn well. It was more of a rhetorical question, but I guess that's kind of hard to convey over the internet. xD
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Old 08-09-2010, 07:23 PM   #22
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Default Re: It's a perfect world we live in. Or maybe not.

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Originally Posted by SageoftheSixPaths View Post
"Created in His image" would mean that they were created in G-d's image, no? That implies that they are, in fact, projections of G-d Himself. However, if they are imperfect, that means that some aspect of G-d was/is imperfect, which is contradictory to all Abrahamic faiths.
Alright, I guess it is time to argue semantics. I could say that some robots are made in man's image, but are they the same? Humans being made in God's image does not have to mean that man is exactly like God.
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Old 08-09-2010, 07:24 PM   #23
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Default Re: It's a perfect world we live in. Or maybe not.

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Originally Posted by Blind Uchiha View Post
Alright, I guess it is time to argue semantics. I could say that some robots are made in man's image, but are they the same? Humans being made in God's image does not have to mean that man is exactly like God.
What's wrong with the robots? xD
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Old 08-09-2010, 07:28 PM   #24
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Default Re: It's a perfect world we live in. Or maybe not.

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What's wrong with the robots? xD
I didn't say anything was wrong with them. My point was that they are not the same as humans despite being purposely made in man's image.
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Old 08-09-2010, 07:32 PM   #25
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Default Re: It's a perfect world we live in. Or maybe not.

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I didn't say anything was wrong with them. My point was that they are not the same as humans despite being purposely made in man's image.
So nothing's wrong with them is what you're saying? They're different, but not imperfect?

And that's exactly what humans are in comparison to G-d. Different, but not imperfect.

So why create sin? Why create imperfection? Why ruin a good thing?
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Old 08-09-2010, 07:33 PM   #26
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Default Re: It's a perfect world we live in. Or maybe not.

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Alright, I guess it is time to argue semantics. I could say that some robots are made in man's image, but are they the same? Humans being made in God's image does not have to mean that man is exactly like God.
You're forgetting that he's God, and we are humans.
Does God have an appendix? It's a useless human organ.
Everything made on a robot has a function. An appendix serves no purpose any more.
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To further the point, we are a social species because we are interdependent. You could count on your hand how many people in a millennium can get by with absolutely no help from anyone else ever. Yet we never work together. That's why ants will eventually bring us down.
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Old 08-09-2010, 07:33 PM   #27
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Default Re: It's a perfect world we live in. Or maybe not.

[QUOTE=SageoftheSixPaths;3768021]"Created in His image" would mean that they were created in G-d's image, no? That implies that they are, in fact, projections of G-d Himself. However, if they are imperfect, that means that some aspect of G-d was/is imperfect, which is contradictory to all Abrahamic faiths.





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Says who? The Bible? The Bible that was written by HUMANS?

Well, I already see a problem with that right off the bat.

As for the actual story, I know the Bible front to back pretty damn well.
Then you can answer your own question.

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It was more of a rhetorical question, but I guess that's kind of hard to convey over the internet. xD
Yeah, the net.
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Old 08-09-2010, 08:03 PM   #28
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Default Re: It's a perfect world we live in. Or maybe not.

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Originally Posted by SageoftheSixPaths View Post
So nothing's wrong with them is what you're saying? They're different, but not imperfect?

And that's exactly what humans are in comparison to G-d. Different, but not imperfect.

So why create sin? Why create imperfection? Why ruin a good thing?
Now we are dealing in a totally different question. You are asking for the reasoning of God. xD One could say that greater honor is received when one's creation chooses to serve it's creator, even though there are other options. The other option being sin.
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Old 08-10-2010, 02:01 AM   #29
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Default Re: It's a perfect world we live in. Or maybe not.

Nothing can be absolute or relative in this world. Only one's perspective of perfect or imperfect. e.g. I can see something as perfect, but to others, imperfect.

The term perfect cannot be achieved in itself. People will determine themselves what is perfect and what is not with controversy, contradictions and fragmentation.

This applies to other terms such as moral and ethics of 'right' and 'wrong'. Only 'you' as an individual determine what is right and wrong in your own mind, because you are subjected to your own consciousness. The subjective experience and awareness however is limited to the social structure in society that facilitates the extent of one's view, in other words, what is right and wrong is institutionalised and embedded in our society and people as individual's behaves and/or their actions are reflected by their own responses of boundaries they live among.

Thus, this 'social restrictions' mediates the way we live our lives, therefore 'we' (rather 'people' - individuals) live the way they do abiding to our own consciousness under the guidence of to some extent an institutionalised society such as the government and laws that they create such as freedom of speech social behaviour(for example).

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Old 08-10-2010, 05:24 AM   #30
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Default Re: It's a perfect world we live in. Or maybe not.

hell no its not perfect
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Old 08-10-2010, 01:31 PM   #31
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Default Re: It's a perfect world we live in. Or maybe not.

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Now we are dealing in a totally different question. You are asking for the reasoning of God. xD One could say that greater honor is received when one's creation chooses to serve it's creator, even though there are other options. The other option being sin.
I'm not asking for His reasoning. I'm not going to pretend that I can even begin to understand that inner workings of G-d's mind. That's simply impossible, as G-d is a perfect being, and I cannot possibly comprehend perfection without becoming G-d myself, something that shouldn't be possible until I reach Heaven.

At least, that's what the Bible says, isn't it? Who's to say that I'm not already one with G-d in all aspects of my being? It's the exact same question, but from a completely different perspective. If I'm G-d, then I'm perfect. If I'm not G-d, I'm imperfect. That implies that everything that isn't G-d isn't perfect, thereby leaving no standard to compare perfection and imperfection save for the metaphysical concept of a deity, namely the Abrahamic G-d.

When you see G-d and get to know Him, then I'll let you lecture me or anyone else on the concepts of perfection and imperfection (not that I'm saying you are lecturing me. I'm just trying to make a point. xD)

Also, following your line of thought, what about Atheists? If they don't believe in any higher power, then what standard of perfection could they possibly have? By your logic, G-d is the standard perfection is measured against. If He doesn't exist, then what takes His place?
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Nothing can be absolute or relative in this world. Only one's perspective of perfect or imperfect. e.g. I can see something as perfect, but to others, imperfect.

The term perfect cannot be achieved in itself. People will determine themselves what is perfect and what is not with controversy, contradictions and fragmentation.

This applies to other terms such as moral and ethics of 'right' and 'wrong'. Only 'you' as an individual determine what is right and wrong in your own mind, because you are subjected to your own consciousness. The subjective experience and awareness however is limited to the social structure in society that facilitates the extent of one's view, in other words, what is right and wrong is institutionalised and embedded in our society and people as individual's behaves and/or their actions are reflected by their own responses of boundaries they live among.

Thus, this 'social restrictions' mediates the way we live our lives, therefore 'we' (rather 'people' - individuals) live the way they do abiding to our own consciousness under the guidence of to some extent an institutionalised society such as the government and laws that they create such as freedom of speech social behaviour(for example).
Nicely put. We have similar points of view on this topic, though I feel as though I could nitpick at your notions of "society" being the factor by which we're influenced. There are plenty of other sources, though that is of course one that most prominent factors.
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Old 08-10-2010, 01:43 PM   #32
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Default Re: It's a perfect world we live in. Or maybe not.

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I'm not asking for His reasoning. I'm not going to pretend that I can even begin to understand that inner workings of G-d's mind. That's simply impossible, as G-d is a perfect being, and I cannot possibly comprehend perfection without becoming G-d myself, something that shouldn't be possible until I reach Heaven.

At least, that's what the Bible says, isn't it? Who's to say that I'm not already one with G-d in all aspects of my being? It's the exact same question, but from a completely different perspective. If I'm G-d, then I'm perfect. If I'm not G-d, I'm imperfect. That implies that everything that isn't G-d isn't perfect, thereby leaving no standard to compare perfection and imperfection save for the metaphysical concept of a deity, namely the Abrahamic G-d.

When you see G-d and get to know Him, then I'll let you lecture me or anyone else on the concepts of perfection and imperfection (not that I'm saying you are lecturing me. I'm just trying to make a point. xD)

Also, following your line of thought, what about Atheists? If they don't believe in any higher power, then what standard of perfection could they possibly have? By your logic, G-d is the standard perfection is measured against. If He doesn't exist, then what takes His place?
My whole argument is that perfection can only exist if there were an all powerful creator. The creator would then be the definition of perfection.

My whole basis was of the belief in an all powerful creator. I said that otherwise I follow your line of reasoning. If you believe that humanity is the farthest species up the food chain than naturally it would be assumed that the supposedly superior race would define perfection whether they be right or wrong.
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Old 08-10-2010, 02:52 PM   #33
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Default Re: It's a perfect world we live in. Or maybe not.

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There is no such thing as imperfection. Don't believe me? Me neither. Then again, I don't believe there is such a thing as perfection, either. There's no such thing as anything other than simply being.

You are right..There is no such thing as imperfection, except for the creature called man, to be more accurate...Everything around us is perfect, there is complete symmetry in everything that is natural. The light is balanced out by dark and good by bad. The perfection is of such high level that if the charges inside an atom fail to balance each other out then the whole material loses its properties.

Who decides if an action is right or wrong? Perfect or imperfect? Nobody and everybody. There is not a single action you can take that is both just and unjust, right and wrong, perfect and imperfect, etc. That also means that ALL actions are just that.

The perception of good and bad varies from one person to another. What is good for me may be completely unacceptable for you. But there are certain things that are universally accepted as good things and bad things, everything other than that is just convenience.

In other words, what you deem to be imperfect may be, in fact, just the opposite. Who's to say? Your opinion doesn't matter to the Earth we all walk on, and the planet itself is greater than any single individual. But without the people that inhabit the planet, would there even BE an Earth?

The Earth will still be there, with only difference that it wont be called Earth. A man alone is so insignificant that his opinion wont mean anything at all. The planet will still be there with or without man. Actually its chances will improve greatly without man.

The concept of perfection is, in a nutshell, a paradox of the most epic scale. Our predecessors, or Neanderthals, quite possibly were just as conscious as we are in regards to their surroundings and own existences. However, do you think they thought in terms of "this is right" or "this is wrong"? Doubtfully, and it's a fact that animals don't think that way either (as far as we know).

Animals do think and have their beliefs as well. If you have seen shows about wild life then you will definitely accept that the animal are ready to kill for what they think or believe to be theirs. A man does the same thing in a bit different way. We have a system(no doubt, highly misused) in place to help us solve problems in a civil manner.

Humans are animals. Plain and simple. So what makes us different from every other creature on the planet? The fact that we think we're better than everything else. Because we believe we're closer to perfection than the koala bear is, but at the same time we know that we possess more imperfections than anything else in this world.

The animals all have their basic needs defined and they live only to fulfill those needs, nothing more and nothing less. Even though man is an animal its different for him. What sets us apart from the animals is our ability to adapt and co-exist, the moral values and most important greed. The animals never crave for more than what they need. In that sense they are better than the humans.

So why? Why continue living the way we do? Why continue living in terms of "right and wrong", "perfect and imperfect", "just and unjust", "moral and immoral"? Why not just "be"?

Because as I said earlier this is the exact thing that sets us apart from the animals.

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Old 08-10-2010, 04:25 PM   #34
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Default Re: It's a perfect world we live in. Or maybe not.

Right and wrong is a human concept. The difference between man and animal is that self rightseousness is in our nature. We believe that what we do contributes to the world, when in reality we are only contributing to our world. To us money is everything and we get money by contributing to society as man see's it.

To us going to school is necessary to getting a good job, that is considered to be the right thing to do, to maintain our society. Is maintaining our man made society good or is simply surviving the right thing? Are animals inferior to us? What about the unemployed? There is one example of what we consider right anyways.

Quote:
The perception of good and bad varies from one person to another. What is good for me may be completely unacceptable for you. But there are certain things that are universally accepted as good things and bad things, everything other than that is just convenience.

What is universally accepted as right and wrong is still just a concept created by humans. Morals is not necissarily right or wrong they were all man made. One example is how muder is considered immoral but soldires go to muder people of other nationalitys for land, preserve their way of life, ect. If murder is universally considered immoral then it shouldn't be justified during war or should it? It is all a matter of what you believe.
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Old 08-10-2010, 05:39 PM   #35
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Default Re: It's a perfect world we live in. Or maybe not.

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You could always be a flipping vegetarian.
Vegetarians eat fruits and vegetables and other similar things. All fruits and vegetables, including grains and breads, are made or come from plants. Plants are living things. Vegetarians claim to not eat other living things, but in fact, Fruits and vegetables are made from plants, so it's actually against those principles.

And in reality, ALL foods contain ingredients from living things in some way. All living things must consume life in order to continue living.
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