Sasuke Missing Nin Plothole/Tsunade is a failure of a Hokage

[TheBlackChidori]

Originally Posted by mrsticky005

Yeah, probably.


Now is this due to a low population...


or are there too many chunin who haven't
been trained well enough to become Jonin?

Way too many Chunin. To me, one of Tsunade's faults. Seems she promoted everyone and their brother to Chunin, but barely picked anyone for Jonin. Is it her fault? Not exactly. Seems like every 5 minutes though, she's summoning Guy, Yamato, or Kakashi to her office, and nobody else.

Perhaps even utilizing the Jonin she has more often, like Neji or any other Jonin. Its gotta take some serious skills to make Jonin, if people like Shikamaru haven't even made it yet.

But is this due to her faults as a leader, or the constant state of disarray her Konoha always seems to be in? She only had 2 years of peace to really work with, and in that time, she had to spend the whole time worrying about Sasuke and Akatsuki.

Do I think Tsunade is the best choice for Hokage? No. But I do think she's done the best with what she's had to work with. She took over after a devastating attack, and nearly died after the most recent one. Perhaps this coma will help lift her indecisiveness?

She seems to have built a leadership position based on Faith in her ninja, and furthering the Will Of Fire. She trusts even Genin to carry out A rank missions or higher. Foolish? Probably.

Maybe its time for Jonin Exams?

[mrsticky005]

Originally Posted by TheBlackChidori

Way too many Chunin. To me, one of Tsunade's faults. Seems she promoted everyone and their brother to Chunin, but barely picked anyone for Jonin. Is it her fault? Not exactly. Seems like every 5 minutes though, she's summoning Guy, Yamato, or Kakashi to her office, and nobody else.

Perhaps even utilizing the Jonin she has more often, like Neji or any other Jonin. Its gotta take some serious skills to make Jonin, if people like Shikamaru haven't even made it yet.

But is this due to her faults as a leader, or the constant state of disarray her Konoha always seems to be in? She only had 2 years of peace to really work with, and in that time, she had to spend the whole time worrying about Sasuke and Akatsuki.

Do I think Tsunade is the best choice for Hokage? No. But I do think she's done the best with what she's had to work with. She took over after a devastating attack, and nearly died after the most recent one. Perhaps this coma will help lift her indecisiveness?

She seems to have built a leadership position based on Faith in her ninja, and furthering the Will Of Fire. She trusts even Genin to carry out A rank missions or higher. Foolish? Probably.

Maybe its time for Jonin Exams?

Kishimoto is also to blame for creating the system and not sticking to it.

[TheBlackChidori]

Its true. Can you really think of another Chunin more deserving of the Jonin title then Shikamaru? Asuma died, Kurenai was pregnant... that's two of her best Jonin out of commission, and she didn't replace a single one.

Hopefully Kishimoto does start bringing the ninja ranks back into the equation, because there was a time when "Jonin" was a feared title, and I for one always hoped we would see some type of "Rite of Passage" for some of the Rookies to overcome for it.

Dead Akatsuki and destroyed villages later...

[naruto_jock]

Originally Posted by TheBlackChidori

Its true. Can you really think of another Chunin more deserving of the Jonin title then Shikamaru? Asuma died, Kurenai was pregnant... that's two of her best Jonin out of commission, and she didn't replace a single one.

Hopefully Kishimoto does start bringing the ninja ranks back into the equation, because there was a time when "Jonin" was a feared title, and I for one always hoped we would see some type of "Rite of Passage" for some of the Rookies to overcome for it.

Dead Akatsuki and destroyed villages later...

I was expecting the same thing when I first started reading the manga, but once I got to Shippuden and how Naruto was still a Genin, I knew something was going to happen to totally change or screw up the system of who's-who's with ranks. Because Naruto is the strongest ninja in the village now. And yet he's a Genin. I think Kishimoto-sama might be trying to tell us that it doesn't matter what title you have, what really matters is how you fight for something you love. I know this is way off, but I just wanted to talk about that one issue really quickly. XD

[mrsticky005]

Originally Posted by naruto_jock

I was expecting the same thing when I first started reading the manga, but once I got to Shippuden and how Naruto was still a Genin, I knew something was going to happen to totally change or screw up the system of who's-who's with ranks. Because Naruto is the strongest ninja in the village now. And yet he's a Genin. I think Kishimoto-sama might be trying to tell us that it doesn't matter what title you have, what really matters is how you fight for something you love. I know this is way off, but I just wanted to talk about that one issue really quickly. XD

Naruto being a genin is fine as he's a special case.

Same with Sasuke as he's a missing nin

However everybody else staying the same is annoying.

[3littlepigs]

Originally Posted by Wooster

He just MAY not have known. No one else did. Even if he did know, how could he stop Madara? No one else has.

True he might not have know we have no idea at this point but I meant that if it had been Tsunade then it would give you even more reason to say she's useless and doesn't do anything and that she was expected to know.

He wanted to get rid of subversives. The Uchiha clan was going to rebel. Even Itachi agree to kill them. It was the right decision. Danzo said so himself. That's why he had to keep on living and why he tried to control the council.

I understand the Uchiha were better off dead if it meant the destruction of Konoha that I don't argue. What I'm saying is that he didn't waste any time getting his hands on those sharingans to make himself more powerful so IMO he also wanted them out of the way to get their power for himself. Why did he have to keep on living if they were already dead? Anyway what good was controlling the council if he couldn't even touch Sasuke?


How would that help? Madara can control the Nine Tails. Danzo came up with a means to counteract Madara's control. Arrogant perhaps, with good reason, but not selfish. Danzo completely destroyed his own body in the process. Not to mention, we have plenty of evidence Danzo cares nothing about rewards or approval of others. He operates in the shadows after all for the sake of Konoha.

How would Naruto being able to control the Kyuubi help? Obviously just like how Killer Bee controlling his bijuu helps. Madara can't control the Kyuubi when its inside a host so that's not an excuse. What exactly was his countermeasure? Getting the Kyuubi for himself? That's why I asked you how that would have been any different? If he kept the Kyuubi loose Madara could take control any moment and if he wanted to keep it sealed but out of Naruto then most likely he planned to become a Jinchurkiki just like Madara with the Juubi. I don't really think he cared about destroying his own body as long as it gave him power...And he only operated from the shadows precisely because he had no option. Why do you think he wanted to be Hokage? I'm sure it wasn't because he loved to be hidden all the time.

No I don't think that's what would have happened. It would be more like Madara. Danzo would control the Nine Tails, perhaps through Naruto.

How can he control the Kyuubi through Naruto? and Madara's different...it's like saying Hashirama and his special ability. Not even Yamato can compare and he has some of his DNA.

Ah ,yeah that's why Danzo is such a breath of fresh air. He actually know things. Danzo knew about Madara, Minato thought he did, Itachi did, Kabuto does. Look at that the smart people.

Of course Danzou knew about Madara...why wouldn't he know if they worked together (and you just said it's probable he didn't know about him). Itachi is a special case so I don't find it weird that he knew about Madara, and about the Akatsuki well he was part of it. Minato did know but couldn't confirm it and he did fight him so it's not like he got the idea or suspicion out of the blue which is basically what you're saying should have happened with Tsunade. Kabuto doesn't even count since it was through Oro that he got most of the inside info..not to mention they knew about Akatsuki because Oro was part of it at some point.

She let team find the spy after Sakura dumped it in her lap. That's all they were going to do. If it wasn't for Sai and Yamato's leadership, the team probably wouldn't have even followed Orochimaru back to his hide out. Danzo already had planned out to do that and kill Sasuke.

Danzou only planned it after he got the info from Sakura as well or where else did he get the info from? Yeah he planned to get rid of Sasuke well enough but he got the advantage from Sakura too so that's not any different than Tsunade in that aspect.

There wasn't going to be any agreement. It was quite obvious. No on could win the trust of the others. Only the extraordinary circumstances of Madara caused the alliance. How did Danzo stab anyone in the back?

They would have probably come to some agreement even if it was just to prevent a war. I wasn't mentioning a specific case in the meeting but I was just describing him. Well he did try and control how the meeting went for his own benefit so that's not very honorable.


She made the Raikage look reasonable. Nuff said. The Raikage can't control KB, but at least he doesn't encourage him. Also, he knew enough to hide KB and not put him on the front lines.

Yeah and he looked just as bad if not worse during the first meeting that was my point and even then he ended up being the leader of the alliance. Yeah but Tsunade wasn't alone in thinking that the bijuus should be used against Madara. It was just because at that point it kind of had already been decided but since she didn't know about it before of course her temper's going to show.

At least when they agreed to be a team the other Kage work together. Would Danzo have flown off the handle when a reasonable idea was presented? I think not. Feelings? This war. If everyone dies, Naruto's feelings are meaningless.

Yeah he would have if that "reasonable" idea didn't give him control. Obviously not everyone is going to die and Naruto's feelings are important that's what sets him apart in the world he lives in. People are going to die anyway with or without the two Jinchurikis there but maybe having them there could end up saving more people. Besides because of how emotional Naruto is he's been able to overcome obstacles that technically he shouldn't have been able to and Gaara knows this. What I meant to say that he should know by experience how having Naruto there can end up doing more good than bad but he just doesn't want to take the risk.

[C4 Karura]

I'm with you on this. Tsunade is rapidly becoming a hateable character (especially as she becomes more flaky).

[Wooster]

Originally Posted by 3littlepigs

He just MAY not have known. No one else did. Even if he did know, how could he stop Madara? No one else has.

True he might not have know we have no idea at this point but I meant that if it had been Tsunade then it would give you even more reason to say she's useless and doesn't do anything and that she was expected to know.

I doubt I meant right away. Obviously at some point Danzo knew it was Madara. He knew Madara on sight.

He wanted to get rid of subversives. The Uchiha clan was going to rebel. Even Itachi agree to kill them. It was the right decision. Danzo said so himself. That's why he had to keep on living and why he tried to control the council.

I understand the Uchiha were better off dead if it meant the destruction of Konoha that I don't argue. What I'm saying is that he didn't waste any time getting his hands on those sharingans to make himself more powerful so IMO he also wanted them out of the way to get their power for himself. Why did he have to keep on living if they were already dead? Anyway what good was controlling the council if he couldn't even touch Sasuke?

We don't know where he got the sharingan. It has never been stated that Danzo's sharingan were from the massacre. Danzo said from here and there, not exactly what you say if you got then form one place. Madara has alot of sharingan. He very well might have taken must of them. Danzo had to stop Madara, sorry moving on to another point there that's all.


How would that help? Madara can control the Nine Tails. Danzo came up with a means to counteract Madara's control. Arrogant perhaps, with good reason, but not selfish. Danzo completely destroyed his own body in the process. Not to mention, we have plenty of evidence Danzo cares nothing about rewards or approval of others. He operates in the shadows after all for the sake of Konoha.

How would Naruto being able to control the Kyuubi help? Obviously just like how Killer Bee controlling his bijuu helps. Madara can't control the Kyuubi when its inside a host so that's not an excuse. What exactly was his countermeasure? Getting the Kyuubi for himself? That's why I asked you how that would have been any different? If he kept the Kyuubi loose Madara could take control any moment and if he wanted to keep it sealed but out of Naruto then most likely he planned to become a Jinchurkiki just like Madara with the Juubi. I don't really think he cared about destroying his own body as long as it gave him power...And he only operated from the shadows precisely because he had no option. Why do you think he wanted to be Hokage? I'm sure it wasn't because he loved to be hidden all the time.

Madara can release the Nine Tails that's waht matter. However, Danzo cold possibly control the Nine Tails while inside Naruto, Danzo does have the First's DNA. In any case, it was done to block any of Madara's moves. Obvioulsy, Madara can release the Nine Tails from a host; he did so with Kushina.

Yes, Danzo didn't care about destroy his own body because he is selfless. You just have the reason wrong. It was to save Konoha and ninja world. He wanted to be Hokage, but did he try to become Hokage when the Third died? He tries but failed, so he used the best option availble to him to help Konoha. And he does love to be hidden all the time. He said so himself when attack on the way to the Kage summit.

No I don't think that's what would have happened. It would be more like Madara. Danzo would control the Nine Tails, perhaps through Naruto.

How can he control the Kyuubi through Naruto? and Madara's different...it's like saying Hashirama and his special ability. Not even Yamato can compare and he has some of his DNA.

How do we know? Dazno obviously had a plan. He needed Kabuto for some reason.
Ah ,yeah that's why Danzo is such a breath of fresh air. He actually know things. Danzo knew about Madara, Minato thought he did, Itachi did, Kabuto does. Look at that the smart people.

Of course Danzou knew about Madara...why wouldn't he know if they worked together (and you just said it's probable he didn't know about him). Itachi is a special case so I don't find it weird that he knew about Madara, and about the Akatsuki well he was part of it. Minato did know but couldn't confirm it and he did fight him so it's not like he got the idea or suspicion out of the blue which is basically what you're saying should have happened with Tsunade. Kabuto doesn't even count since it was through Oro that he got most of the inside info..not to mention they knew about Akatsuki because Oro was part of it at some point.

The met doesn't mean they worked together if anything it means Danzo just was bidding his time and planning to defeat Madara. Minato didn't know for certain, but he suspected as much. There is no evidence Orochimaru knew about Madara. Kabuto solved this himself.
She let team find the spy after Sakura dumped it in her lap. That's all they were going to do. If it wasn't for Sai and Yamato's leadership, the team probably wouldn't have even followed Orochimaru back to his hide out. Danzo already had planned out to do that and kill Sasuke.

Danzou only planned it after he got the info from Sakura as well or where else did he get the info from? Yeah he planned to get rid of Sasuke well enough but he got the advantage from Sakura too so that's not any different than Tsunade in that aspect.

Yes, but he developed a plan and very good one. Tsunade just said "Duh okay let's do what Sasori told us." Tsunade did mothing further with the info, Danzo did.
There wasn't going to be any agreement. It was quite obvious. No on could win the trust of the others. Only the extraordinary circumstances of Madara caused the alliance. How did Danzo stab anyone in the back?

They would have probably come to some agreement even if it was just to prevent a war. I wasn't mentioning a specific case in the meeting but I was just describing him. Well he did try and control how the meeting went for his own benefit so that's not very honorable.

Sure, Danzo is not honorable. He is pragmatic.

She made the Raikage look reasonable. Nuff said. The Raikage can't control KB, but at least he doesn't encourage him. Also, he knew enough to hide KB and not put him on the front lines.

Yeah and he looked just as bad if not worse during the first meeting that was my point and even then he ended up being the leader of the alliance. Yeah but Tsunade wasn't alone in thinking that the bijuus should be used against Madara. It was just because at that point it kind of had already been decided but since she didn't know about it before of course her temper's going to show.

Yes, but he is a hot head. He makes up for that with strength: himself and his village. Plus, he is not a sentimental as Tsunade. Look at what he said to Naruto. Yes, it was discussed reasonably and rejected. Tsunade wasn't reasonable when she brought it up.

At least when they agreed to be a team the other Kage work together. Would Danzo have flown off the handle when a reasonable idea was presented? I think not. Feelings? This war. If everyone dies, Naruto's feelings are meaningless.

Yeah he would have if that "reasonable" idea didn't give him control. Obviously not everyone is going to die and Naruto's feelings are important that's what sets him apart in the world he lives in. People are going to die anyway with or without the two Jinchurikis there but maybe having them there could end up saving more people. Besides because of how emotional Naruto is he's been able to overcome obstacles that technically he shouldn't have been able to and Gaara knows this. What I meant to say that he should know by experience how having Naruto there can end up doing more good than bad but he just doesn't want to take the risk.

He may have tried to subvert it, but he wouldn't have whine like a child. Possibly even argue it. Tsunade just blubbered and yelled.

If the Jinchuriki are captured then everyone loses. Naruto has also bungled missions because of his emotion. He wouldn't fit in well with an army. Everyone realizes this but Tsunade.