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Old 07-20-2010, 02:36 PM   #41
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Default Re: Gato Theory...Seriously.

well, they probably wont bring back gato, but, we could have his kid, KISAME!!!! (duh duh DUHHHHHH!!!!!!! ) make a formal alliance and get gatos men from the land of waves to attack, and he could become mizukage again lol. and then, he would take over the leaf and also be hokage, and having two villages with full power, he could easily take over any other village! MWAHAHAAHAHAHHAAAA

it would also explain why when madara introduced himself to kisame, they seemed to know each other quite well xD
Kisame: its too bad dad's attack on zabuza went badly, but thanks for taking me under your wing madara
Madara: your welcome little boy lets destroy a village now!
Kisame YAY!!!

(fail lol)
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Old 07-20-2010, 02:43 PM   #42
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Default Re: Gato Theory...Seriously.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rezeon View Post
Huh, I guess if I would have put a Zabuza tie-in into the thread I made earlier this month it would have gotten a bit more attention... http://naruto.viz.com/forum/showthread.php?t=63591

Personally I think with what we know about Tobi, his relationship with the Hidden Mist Village, and the final fate of the Land of Whirlpools it seems like they could all tie together quite nicely. Tobi had a motive to whipe out the Land of Whirpools and the Hidden Mist Village provided him a rather straight forward way to handle it.

As for how Zabuza could play into it...

I've never spent much time looking at the databook statistics on all the characters, so I don't know most of the ages of the older cast, but I always assumed Zabuza was pretty close to Kakashi's age. Which means he would have been rookie age during the last ninja war when the destruction of the land of whirlpools happened. Considering the reputation Zabuza had as a kid he would have been the right type of canidate for a mission to crush another nation. Of course I'm just guessing on this part as I'm not certain of his age...

We don't really have much information about Tobi's time as secret Mizukage or when specifically it happened though. The overall problem is that we just don't know how long each Mizukage was in power. Mai (5th and current Mizukage) seems relatively young so it is hard to say how long she has been running things, the artwork we've seen of 4th Mizukage made him look very young compared to the other 8 hosts, and we know squat about the other 3 Mizukage before that.

Considering the artwork and the fact that the 3-tails was loose in the world it would seem he had a short reign with a violent death. The fact that Tobi didn't simply take the 3-tails at that point would either imply the Akatsuki wasn't formed yet or he wasn't controlling that particular Mizukage. It also seems that he wasn't taken out by his own village though, otherwise they would have had a new host ready.



Gato on the other hand I have a lot more trouble trying to tie into this. When we saw him he seemed like just a small time local crime boss, trying to push a classic protection racket on the locals. Zabuza was simply his hired muscle. I just never got the feel that anything larger than that was ever going on with Gato.

I also doubt Tobi would have needed to keep anything secret about the destruction of the Land of Whirlpools, as that event was already a good 20 years old by the time of that mission.
No Zabuza was a bit younger than Kakakshi.

He probably wouldn't have been involved in the last ninja war.
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Old 07-20-2010, 02:52 PM   #43
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Default Re: Gato Theory...Seriously.

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Originally Posted by mrsticky005 View Post
I'm not saying Zabuza is a goody two shoes...

I think Zabuza had his own set of moral rules.

Whereas someone like Madara has no rules whatsoever.

Zabuza didn't have rules.
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Old 07-20-2010, 03:18 PM   #44
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Default Re: Gato Theory...Seriously.

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Originally Posted by Shikamaru Nara View Post

Zabuza didn't have rules.
Thank you.
Your move, Stick Man.
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Old 07-20-2010, 05:19 PM   #45
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Default Re: Gato Theory...Seriously.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Shikamaru Nara View Post

Zabuza didn't have rules.

Note the key words I put of "I think"

from what we seen Zabuza was shown to have no rules.

But remember how he was supposed to be emotionalness too?

After Naruto's speech he started crying.

Yes, Zabuza treated Haku like a tool but in the end he did care about him.

Think Madara cares about Sasuke at all? Think again.
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Old 07-20-2010, 05:21 PM   #46
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Default Re: Gato Theory...Seriously.

Let me it this way:

Whether you believe Zabuza is good or bad now...

He will end up being shown to be good but misunderstood all along.

His actions will seem a lot more justify after future revelations.
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Old 07-21-2010, 09:32 AM   #47
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Default Re: Gato Theory...Seriously.

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No Zabuza was a bit younger than Kakakshi.

He probably wouldn't have been involved in the last ninja war.
Yeah, I got to thinking about that after I posted, and remembered that the destruction of the Eddy Village was closer to when Kushina was a kid, so Zabuza definitely wouldn't have been a ninja at the time.

I forgot that the war lasted a few decades. If I remember correctly the 3 Sannin were already fighting battles in the war before Jiraiya even started training Minato, then the war only ended quite awhile later after Minato had finished teaching his own team.

With a conflict of that scale and length it really makes you wonder what was going on during that time.
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Old 07-21-2010, 09:36 AM   #48
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Default Re: Gato Theory...Seriously.

Makes sense, I mean, He might not have realized that Madara was evil and stayed loyal to him as he was Mizukage.
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Old 07-21-2010, 10:17 AM   #49
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Default Re: Gato Theory...Seriously.

The thing with Zabuza is, whatever he was for all his life, he changed just before he died. The successful use of TnJ by naruto proves that there was something good in Zabuza's mind. But it wont be the same with Tobi/madara that guy is like the typical brainy evil who doesn't give a crap about stuff like other people and their lives.

Zabuza never really believed the generally accepted philosophy about ninjas and still he tried to embrace it, tried to turn himself into an emotionless killing machine. This is why he killed so many kids in the exams. But when Haku died he felt the emotions he had tried to get rid of and end up paying with his life to avenge Haku on Gatoh.
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Old 07-21-2010, 01:35 PM   #50
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Default Re: Gato Theory...Seriously.

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Originally Posted by gama-sennin View Post
The thing with Zabuza is, whatever he was for all his life, he changed just before he died. The successful use of TnJ by naruto proves that there was something good in Zabuza's mind. But it wont be the same with Tobi/madara that guy is like the typical brainy evil who doesn't give a crap about stuff like other people and their lives.

Zabuza never really believed the generally accepted philosophy about ninjas and still he tried to embrace it, tried to turn himself into an emotionless killing machine. This is why he killed so many kids in the exams. But when Haku died he felt the emotions he had tried to get rid of and end up paying with his life to avenge Haku on Gatoh.

What gama-sennin said. Which is bit approved by the way.
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Old 07-21-2010, 02:05 PM   #51
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Default Re: Gato Theory...Seriously.

Quote:
Originally Posted by gama-sennin View Post
The thing with Zabuza is, whatever he was for all his life, he changed just before he died. The successful use of TnJ by naruto proves that there was something good in Zabuza's mind. But it wont be the same with Tobi/madara that guy is like the typical brainy evil who doesn't give a crap about stuff like other people and their lives.

Zabuza never really believed the generally accepted philosophy about ninjas and still he tried to embrace it, tried to turn himself into an emotionless killing machine. This is why he killed so many kids in the exams. But when Haku died he felt the emotions he had tried to get rid of and end up paying with his life to avenge Haku on Gatoh.
There was nothing in Zabuza until end. He loved killing. He was suppose to be dispassionate about it; he wasn't.

Dieter disapproved.
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Old 07-21-2010, 02:17 PM   #52
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Default Re: Gato Theory...Seriously.

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There was nothing in Zabuza until end. He loved killing. He was suppose to be dispassionate about it; he wasn't.

Dieter disapproved.
Ah, whatever. Wooster wins. HE SHOULD GET MORE REP!!!

Everyone add more rep to Wooster and he'll return the favor...maybe.

Broken promises for the win! Increase Rep-taxation without rep-resentation

Spoiler:
*Federal Wooster Reserve strikes again *
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Old 07-21-2010, 02:24 PM   #53
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Default Re: Gato Theory...Seriously.

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Ah, whatever. Wooster wins. HE SHOULD GET MORE REP!!!

Everyone add more rep to Wooster and he'll return the favor...maybe.

Broken promises for the win! Increase Rep-taxation without rep-resentation

Spoiler:
*Federal Wooster Reserve strikes again *
Damn you! My rep power has already gone up twice today.
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Old 07-21-2010, 02:35 PM   #54
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Default Re: Gato Theory...Seriously.

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Damn you! My rep power has already gone up twice today.

But don't you think people should REP you for your great insights?

I mean the winner of the debate WOOSTER should win some MORE REP!

WOOSTER just can't get ENOUGH of your REP!! Hahhahahhahahhahaa

Spoiler:
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Old 07-21-2010, 02:48 PM   #55
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But don't you think people should REP you for your great insights?

I mean the winner of the debate WOOSTER should win some MORE REP!

WOOSTER just can't get ENOUGH of your REP!! Hahhahahhahahhahaa

Spoiler:
Federal Wooster Reserve strikes again!
NOOOOOOOOOOOOO!
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Old 03-21-2011, 08:50 AM   #56
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Default Re: Gato Theory...Seriously.

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Expect to find out more in the expected Naruto vs Kisame fight

(Naruto will be the one to defeat Kisame.)


I sense an epic flashback fight:

Kisame the Traitorous Akatsuki Seventh Swordsman of the Hidden Mist

vs Zabuza the Six Other Swordsman of the Hidden Mist.
Guy, but it was best that way, wasn't it?

Quote:
Originally Posted by mrsticky005 View Post
Now how can we tie Mizuki into all of this?

Madara: I manipulated Mizuki...and created ALL THE FILLERS!
Mizuki was under the assumed employ of Orochimaru, who was at one time under the employ of Pain, who was shepherded by Madara; meaning that Mizuki was under Madara after all!

Quote:
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No.

Zabuza has no morals. He massacred the entire classes after all.

The point was Haku changed Zabuza. Madara doesn't just kill people; he has his reason. He actually wants peace in his strange, twisted way.
Quote:
Originally Posted by mrsticky005 View Post
Madara does not want peace. He wants to destroy everyone or enslave everyone but himself. Just because Madara says he wants peace doesn't
mean he actually does.

Don't you go be making Madara into Danzo!

Zabuza is like Sai Shaft.
Trained to have no emotions but can't get rid of them.
Quote:
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No, he is not like Danzo. Madara wants peace that he rules. Danzo just want peace in the ninja way, of course. What's interesting is that the Third pretty much described what Danzo wants during the chunin exams. Strangely enough the Third has been ret-conned into a wimp or something. Regardless, Tsunade takes the nicity-nice and believe in your heart to the extreme. No wonder Danzo hates her.

Back to the topic at hand. Of course, Madara wants power too that has been obvious from the beginning. In this way he and Zabuza are alike.

Zabuza is like a sadistic, younger Madara back in the Konoha formation days. Zabuza has emotions, joy of killing. This is why he not exactly like Foundation members.
Just want to momentarily interrupt your repartee to say that had Hiruzen been as wimpy as was merely implied; then Danzo wouldn't have just formed an opposing coalition, he would have wrought death in Hiruzen's camp to prevent his rise to power. Face it, just because Danzo thought things could have been done better, he must've also thought the third wasn't entirely incompetent, unlike Tsunade whom he left to die.

Continue.

Quote:
Originally Posted by mrsticky005 View Post
Madara doesn't want peace.

When Naruto said "You're nothing like Nagato. He actually wanted peace."

Madara laughed and said "Heh. You're right."

Madara couldn't care less about peace. He wants power. Always has/will.
Why does he want power? Because of his inflamed ego. He's a sore loser.

Danzo wants power and control to lead to peace. Danzo is the ugly truth incarnate. Danzo is what is necessary to keep men like Madara in check.

Now for Zabuza. Sure he's cruel but who wasn't in the Bloody Mist? And who is most likely responsible for that whole dealio? Who else but Madara?
(Sure, it could be all Yagura's doing...but I seriously doubt the three tails
is going to one up Madara in the evil department) Zabuza tried to assasinate the Mizukage and failed. Why did he fail? Most likely because
he attacked Yagura and not the true Mizukage...Madara. But why did he
try to assassinate the Mizukage in the first place? The Bloody Mist was
riddled with civil wars and was probably worse than the Hidden Rain.
Zabuza was gonna kill the Mizukage and put an end to it. But he failed.
Zabuza was then on the run but he still had his ambition. Zabuza
worked for a lowlife like Gato because he needed money. Zabuza needed
money to finance Mizukage Assassination Part 2. Zabuza isn't evil
but misguided and misunderstood. That's why Naruto could change him.
Naruto will never be able to change someone like Madara.
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Originally Posted by mrsticky005 View Post
I wonder when the Bloody Mist ended?
I dig the thread non-sequitur. It ended soon after Zabuza zealously over-exerted himself or after his overthrow attempt.

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Originally Posted by Wooster View Post
But that's your flaw. Madara is not Orochimaru. Orochimaru just wants chaos, he did not want to rule.

Madara does want to rule, thus he wants peace when he rules. It is the exact opposite of Danzo. Danzo wants there to be peace, in the power through force manner of course, thus he needs to rule. It is logical for Danzo and ego for Madara.

Zabuza was especially cruel. Remember the end the Bloody Mist training because of Zabuza. He went beyond all others.

If Zabuza only tried to take control of the Mist village because it was poorly run, why did he still want to take over later with Mai running it? She seems to have stabilized the Mist village quite well.

Zabuza is most definitely evil. His motivations are only for himself and not only will he do anything to achieve his goals, he enjoys the killing as well.

Now Zabuza is not Madara, he is small time. He is like the hit-man that enjoys his work, and wants to buy villa in South American when he retires.

What am I saying? I have the perfect analogy that at least we will understand even of no one else does. Zabuza is Roberto and Madara is Johan. Done.
Or is it?

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Originally Posted by 9tail View Post
hmm...ok gato is that boss lookin dude in the zabuza saga right?...in this case, it makes sense...awsome...i wish i paid a little more attention to the beggnining of the series...but question is, why would this be important so late in the series?...just to make fans relize that the zabuza saga wasnt a complete waste of time?...to further fans facination with madara?...
Yes, but so much more as we will see soon enough.

Quote:
Originally Posted by mrsticky005 View Post
Yes to both.

Whether or not Kishimoto had this whole plot in mind when he wrote the Zabuza Sage, I think now he (or at least his editors) would want the story
to tie together so people would be encouraged to buy ALL the volumes.

Madara is a major antagonist if not the antagonist of the story.
It's important to have an antagonist who rivals or succeeds the protagonist. Otherwise there is no conflict and no story.
Not just all that. After all, that bit has merit even as just a temporary sidestep. It's where they grew in power! However, the tie was there from the beginning. It won't be actual retcon because it was meant to be.

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Originally Posted by White Dragon View Post
Hmm..this makes some sense. Sadly, Gato's been dead for a while, but it would clear some things up.

*200 posts! :O :O *
Seems someone shaved a few off there, pal.

Here's the thing, and I'm deadly serious. He's the guy in THAT coffin, capable of revealing what even Izuna could not, provided he was actually against this tack anyway. Gato is essentially useless as a combat ET, but as an informant or governing personage...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rezeon View Post
Huh, I guess if I would have put a Zabuza tie-in into the thread I made earlier this month it would have gotten a bit more attention... http://naruto.viz.com/forum/showthread.php?t=63591

Personally I think with what we know about Tobi, his relationship with the Hidden Mist Village, and the final fate of the Land of Whirlpools it seems like they could all tie together quite nicely. Tobi had a motive to whipe out the Land of Whirpools and the Hidden Mist Village provided him a rather straight forward way to handle it.

As for how Zabuza could play into it...

I've never spent much time looking at the databook statistics on all the characters, so I don't know most of the ages of the older cast, but I always assumed Zabuza was pretty close to Kakashi's age. Which means he would have been rookie age during the last ninja war when the destruction of the land of whirlpools happened. Considering the reputation Zabuza had as a kid he would have been the right type of canidate for a mission to crush another nation. Of course I'm just guessing on this part as I'm not certain of his age...

We don't really have much information about Tobi's time as secret Mizukage or when specifically it happened though. The overall problem is that we just don't know how long each Mizukage was in power. Mai (5th and current Mizukage) seems relatively young so it is hard to say how long she has been running things, the artwork we've seen of 4th Mizukage made him look very young compared to the other 8 hosts, and we know squat about the other 3 Mizukage before that.

Considering the artwork and the fact that the 3-tails was loose in the world it would seem he had a short reign with a violent death. The fact that Tobi didn't simply take the 3-tails at that point would either imply the Akatsuki wasn't formed yet or he wasn't controlling that particular Mizukage. It also seems that he wasn't taken out by his own village though, otherwise they would have had a new host ready.



Gato on the other hand I have a lot more trouble trying to tie into this. When we saw him he seemed like just a small time local crime boss, trying to push a classic protection racket on the locals. Zabuza was simply his hired muscle. I just never got the feel that anything larger than that was ever going on with Gato.

I also doubt Tobi would have needed to keep anything secret about the destruction of the Land of Whirlpools, as that event was already a good 20 years old by the time of that mission.
Perhaps there were still some living personnel in various lands who knew of potential weaknesses to Madara, so he had to keep things quiet for awhile.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ObitoUchiha View Post
well, they probably wont bring back gato, but, we could have his kid, KISAME!!!! (duh duh DUHHHHHH!!!!!!! ) make a formal alliance and get gatos men from the land of waves to attack, and he could become mizukage again lol. and then, he would take over the leaf and also be hokage, and having two villages with full power, he could easily take over any other village! MWAHAHAAHAHAHHAAAA

it would also explain why when madara introduced himself to kisame, they seemed to know each other quite well xD
Kisame: its too bad dad's attack on zabuza went badly, but thanks for taking me under your wing madara
Madara: your welcome little boy lets destroy a village now!
Kisame YAY!!!

(fail lol)
Mostly fail, yes, but Gato's in the coffin!!!!

Quote:
Originally Posted by gama-sennin View Post
The thing with Zabuza is, whatever he was for all his life, he changed just before he died. The successful use of TnJ by naruto proves that there was something good in Zabuza's mind. But it wont be the same with Tobi/madara that guy is like the typical brainy evil who doesn't give a crap about stuff like other people and their lives.

Zabuza never really believed the generally accepted philosophy about ninjas and still he tried to embrace it, tried to turn himself into an emotionless killing machine. This is why he killed so many kids in the exams. But when Haku died he felt the emotions he had tried to get rid of and end up paying with his life to avenge Haku on Gatoh.
And this is why Woo loses the argument. Zabuza grew to like killing out of necessity; clearly he was tormented by the very philosophy of the end-test and his parents' teachings that we must work to our best abilities. So Zabuza had to give a 110%, and he achieved success early on.

All that death took its toll however, and Zabuza was left nearly inhuman by the time he'd compromised his parents' beliefs by chasing his ambition to the heights of Mizukage (almost) via killing left and right. It took the presences of dear Haku and Naruto to push him back, where he realized that killing should be used sparingly, and not for the intent of achieving power; but for the preservation of the, well, no one's innocent, but you get the idea. He atoned by killing off the vile Gato.

But Gato, too is about to get his second chance. Question is, will he follow the whims of Madara and/or Kabuto???
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Old 03-21-2011, 09:42 AM   #57
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Old 03-21-2011, 10:32 AM   #58
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Old 03-21-2011, 01:49 PM   #59
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Old 03-21-2011, 02:29 PM   #60
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