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Old 07-18-2010, 12:07 PM   #21
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Default Re: Gato Theory...Seriously.

Wow, that is an interesting theory. It does make sense. But I don't think Gato will be brought up again. I barely even remember he existed.
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Old 07-18-2010, 02:12 PM   #22
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Default Re: Gato Theory...Seriously.

Quote:
Originally Posted by mrsticky005 View Post
Disagree.

Zabuza has morals...otherwise it wouldn't be possible for him to feel guilty about Haku's death which in the end he did. He even cried about it.

You're not going to see that happen with Madara. Ever.

Madara is evil. Period.
No.

Zabuza has no morals. He massacred the entire classes after all.

The point was Haku changed Zabuza. Madara doesn't just kill people; he has his reason. He actually wants peace in his strange, twisted way.
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Old 07-18-2010, 08:59 PM   #23
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Default Re: Gato Theory...Seriously.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Wooster View Post
No.

Zabuza has no morals. He massacred the entire classes after all.

The point was Haku changed Zabuza. Madara doesn't just kill people; he has his reason. He actually wants peace in his strange, twisted way.

Madara does not want peace. He wants to destroy everyone or enslave everyone but himself. Just because Madara says he wants peace doesn't
mean he actually does.

Don't you go be making Madara into Danzo!

Zabuza is like Sai Shaft.
Trained to have no emotions but can't get rid of them.
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Old 07-19-2010, 07:48 AM   #24
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Default Re: Gato Theory...Seriously.

Quote:
Originally Posted by mrsticky005 View Post
Madara does not want peace. He wants to destroy everyone or enslave everyone but himself. Just because Madara says he wants peace doesn't
mean he actually does.

Don't you go be making Madara into Danzo!

Zabuza is like Sai Shaft.
Trained to have no emotions but can't get rid of them.
No, he is not like Danzo. Madara wants peace that he rules. Danzo just want peace in the ninja way, of course. What's interesting is that the Third pretty much described what Danzo wants during the chunin exams. Strangely enough the Third has been ret-conned into a wimp or something. Regardless, Tsunade takes the nicity-nice and believe in your heart to the extreme. No wonder Danzo hates her.

Back to the topic at hand. Of course, Madara wants power too that has been obvious from the beginning. In this way he and Zabuza are alike.

Zabuza is like a sadistic, younger Madara back in the Konoha formation days. Zabuza has emotions, joy of killing. This is why he not exactly like Foundation members.
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Old 07-19-2010, 08:09 AM   #25
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Default Re: Gato Theory...Seriously.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Wooster View Post
No, he is not like Danzo. Madara wants peace that he rules. Danzo just want peace in the ninja way, of course. What's interesting is that the Third pretty much described what Danzo wants during the chunin exams. Strangely enough the Third has been ret-conned into a wimp or something. Regardless, Tsunade takes the nicity-nice and believe in your heart to the extreme. No wonder Danzo hates her.

Back to the topic at hand. Of course, Madara wants power too that has been obvious from the beginning. In this way he and Zabuza are alike.

Zabuza is like a sadistic, younger Madara back in the Konoha formation days. Zabuza has emotions, joy of killing. This is why he not exactly like Foundation members.

Madara doesn't want peace.

When Naruto said "You're nothing like Nagato. He actually wanted peace."

Madara laughed and said "Heh. You're right."

Madara couldn't care less about peace. He wants power. Always has/will.
Why does he want power? Because of his inflamed ego. He's a sore loser.

Danzo wants power and control to lead to peace. Danzo is the ugly truth incarnate. Danzo is what is necessary to keep men like Madara in check.

Now for Zabuza. Sure he's cruel but who wasn't in the Bloody Mist? And who is most likely responsible for that whole dealio? Who else but Madara?
(Sure, it could be all Yagura's doing...but I seriously doubt the three tails
is going to one up Madara in the evil department) Zabuza tried to assasinate the Mizukage and failed. Why did he fail? Most likely because
he attacked Yagura and not the true Mizukage...Madara. But why did he
try to assassinate the Mizukage in the first place? The Bloody Mist was
riddled with civil wars and was probably worse than the Hidden Rain.
Zabuza was gonna kill the Mizukage and put an end to it. But he failed.
Zabuza was then on the run but he still had his ambition. Zabuza
worked for a lowlife like Gato because he needed money. Zabuza needed
money to finance Mizukage Assassination Part 2. Zabuza isn't evil
but misguided and misunderstood. That's why Naruto could change him.
Naruto will never be able to change someone like Madara.
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Old 07-19-2010, 08:15 AM   #26
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Default Re: Gato Theory...Seriously.

oh very good theory nicely put together,i think it could be a big possiblility
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Old 07-19-2010, 08:39 AM   #27
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Default Re: Gato Theory...Seriously.

I wonder when the Bloody Mist ended?
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Old 07-19-2010, 09:01 AM   #28
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Default Re: Gato Theory...Seriously.

Quote:
Originally Posted by mrsticky005 View Post
Madara doesn't want peace.

When Naruto said "You're nothing like Nagato. He actually wanted peace."

Madara laughed and said "Heh. You're right."

Madara couldn't care less about peace. He wants power. Always has/will.
Why does he want power? Because of his inflamed ego. He's a sore loser.

Danzo wants power and control to lead to peace. Danzo is the ugly truth incarnate. Danzo is what is necessary to keep men like Madara in check.

Now for Zabuza. Sure he's cruel but who wasn't in the Bloody Mist? And who is most likely responsible for that whole dealio? Who else but Madara?
(Sure, it could be all Yagura's doing...but I seriously doubt the three tails
is going to one up Madara in the evil department) Zabuza tried to assasinate the Mizukage and failed. Why did he fail? Most likely because
he attacked Yagura and not the true Mizukage...Madara. But why did he
try to assassinate the Mizukage in the first place? The Bloody Mist was
riddled with civil wars and was probably worse than the Hidden Rain.
Zabuza was gonna kill the Mizukage and put an end to it. But he failed.
Zabuza was then on the run but he still had his ambition. Zabuza
worked for a lowlife like Gato because he needed money. Zabuza needed
money to finance Mizukage Assassination Part 2. Zabuza isn't evil
but misguided and misunderstood. That's why Naruto could change him.
Naruto will never be able to change someone like Madara.
But that's your flaw. Madara is not Orochimaru. Orochimaru just wants chaos, he did not want to rule.

Madara does want to rule, thus he wants peace when he rules. It is the exact opposite of Danzo. Danzo wants there to be peace, in the power through force manner of course, thus he needs to rule. It is logical for Danzo and ego for Madara.

Zabuza was especially cruel. Remember the end the Bloody Mist training because of Zabuza. He went beyond all others.

If Zabuza only tried to take control of the Mist village because it was poorly run, why did he still want to take over later with Mai running it? She seems to have stabilized the Mist village quite well.

Zabuza is most definitely evil. His motivations are only for himself and not only will he do anything to achieve his goals, he enjoys the killing as well.

Now Zabuza is not Madara, he is small time. He is like the hit-man that enjoys his work, and wants to buy villa in South American when he retires.

What am I saying? I have the perfect analogy that at least we will understand even of no one else does. Zabuza is Roberto and Madara is Johan. Done.
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Old 07-19-2010, 11:43 AM   #29
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Default Re: Gato Theory...Seriously.

Epic?

That would be kinda cool if Madara was the kind of freemasons for America as he is for the Naruto storyline, Now if only we were to find out E has another fist in his beard... then we'll have seen it all...
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Old 07-19-2010, 08:04 PM   #30
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Default Re: Gato Theory...Seriously.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Wooster View Post
But that's your flaw. Madara is not Orochimaru. Orochimaru just wants chaos, he did not want to rule.

Madara does want to rule, thus he wants peace when he rules. It is the exact opposite of Danzo. Danzo wants there to be peace, in the power through force manner of course, thus he needs to rule. It is logical for Danzo and ego for Madara.

Zabuza was especially cruel. Remember the end the Bloody Mist training because of Zabuza. He went beyond all others.

If Zabuza only tried to take control of the Mist village because it was poorly run, why did he still want to take over later with Mai running it? She seems to have stabilized the Mist village quite well.

Zabuza is most definitely evil. His motivations are only for himself and not only will he do anything to achieve his goals, he enjoys the killing as well.

Now Zabuza is not Madara, he is small time. He is like the hit-man that enjoys his work, and wants to buy villa in South American when he retires.

What am I saying? I have the perfect analogy that at least we will understand even of no one else does. Zabuza is Roberto and Madara is Johan. Done.

Johan is more evil than Roberto. Hence Madara more evil than Zabuza.

Done.
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Old 07-19-2010, 08:48 PM   #31
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Default Re: Gato Theory...Seriously.

hmm...ok gato is that boss lookin dude in the zabuza saga right?...in this case, it makes sense...awsome...i wish i paid a little more attention to the beggnining of the series...but question is, why would this be important so late in the series?...just to make fans relize that the zabuza saga wasnt a complete waste of time?...to further fans facination with madara?...
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Old 07-20-2010, 03:04 AM   #32
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Default Re: Gato Theory...Seriously.

but of corse.
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Old 07-20-2010, 03:12 AM   #33
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Default Re: Gato Theory...Seriously.

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but of corse.
i know right?
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Old 07-20-2010, 06:18 AM   #34
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Default Re: Gato Theory...Seriously.

Quote:
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hmm...ok gato is that boss lookin dude in the zabuza saga right?...in this case, it makes sense...awsome...i wish i paid a little more attention to the beggnining of the series...but question is, why would this be important so late in the series?...just to make fans relize that the zabuza saga wasnt a complete waste of time?...to further fans facination with madara?...

Yes to both.

Whether or not Kishimoto had this whole plot in mind when he wrote the Zabuza Sage, I think now he (or at least his editors) would want the story
to tie together so people would be encouraged to buy ALL the volumes.

Madara is a major antagonist if not the antagonist of the story.
It's important to have an antagonist who rivals or succeeds the protagonist. Otherwise there is no conflict and no story.
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Old 07-20-2010, 06:22 AM   #35
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Default Re: Gato Theory...Seriously.

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Johan is more evil than Roberto. Hence Madara more evil than Zabuza.

Done.
Wrong. Johan is more intelligent than Roberto, not more evil.
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Old 07-20-2010, 07:38 AM   #36
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Default Re: Gato Theory...Seriously.

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Wrong. Johan is more intelligent than Roberto, not more evil.

Johan is more evil than Roberto. I know the whole series. You don't. Nyah.

Anywho, Johan is to Roberto as Hitler was to Nazi Soldiers.

The Nazi Soldiers may have done all the horrible deeds...

But who gave the orders? Hitler (through a chain of command)

Johan gives orders. Roberto completes them.

Johan also DOES kill people with his own hands (and a gun.)
Though this is shown sparingly for the sake of suspense.

Roberto just likes killing.

Johan cares more about people experiencing
as Danzo..I mean blind old man said "Ultimate Fear".
Then when he's had his fun he kills them.


Compare the Library Scene

Roberto was cool with the "Shoot Schuwald" plan. Plain and simple.
But Johan found that too dull and went with the...

BURN THE LIBRARY WITH EVERYONE INSIDE IT plan

Sure, Dr Tenma did end up saving a lot of people but it's not like Johan actually gave a care if everybody fried to a crisp or not. He just wanted to give everyone...the ultimate fear . People dying was a bonus.

Johan drives people to commit suicide (or makes it look like they did.)


Johan is more evil than Roberto.

Madara is more evil than Zabuza.

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Old 07-20-2010, 12:52 PM   #37
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Default Re: Gato Theory...Seriously.

nice theory it makes sense
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Old 07-20-2010, 12:56 PM   #38
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Default Re: Gato Theory...Seriously.

Hmm..this makes some sense. Sadly, Gato's been dead for a while, but it would clear some things up.

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Old 07-20-2010, 01:15 PM   #39
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Default Re: Gato Theory...Seriously.

Quote:
Originally Posted by mrsticky005 View Post
Johan is more evil than Roberto. I know the whole series. You don't. Nyah.

Anywho, Johan is to Roberto as Hitler was to Nazi Soldiers.

The Nazi Soldiers may have done all the horrible deeds...

But who gave the orders? Hitler (through a chain of command)

Johan gives orders. Roberto completes them.

Johan also DOES kill people with his own hands (and a gun.)
Though this is shown sparingly for the sake of suspense.

Roberto just likes killing.

Johan cares more about people experiencing
as Danzo..I mean blind old man said "Ultimate Fear".
Then when he's had his fun he kills them.


Compare the Library Scene

Roberto was cool with the "Shoot Schuwald" plan. Plain and simple.
But Johan found that too dull and went with the...

BURN THE LIBRARY WITH EVERYONE INSIDE IT plan

Sure, Dr Tenma did end up saving a lot of people but it's not like Johan actually gave a care if everybody fried to a crisp or not. He just wanted to give everyone...the ultimate fear . People dying was a bonus.

Johan drives people to commit suicide (or makes it look like they did.)


Johan is more evil than Roberto.

Madara is more evil than Zabuza.

Waldo IS Carmen Sandiago..on Tijuana Tuesdays!
You realize by my ever harsher conditions, you have now agreed with my point that Zabuza is evil.

Besides Roberto thought Johan was brilliant in his fire strategy. He liked it just as much. Roberto just wasn't smart enough to figure it out himself.

Remember they look just like ants comment followed by laughter?
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Old 07-20-2010, 02:19 PM   #40
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Default Re: Gato Theory...Seriously.

Huh, I guess if I would have put a Zabuza tie-in into the thread I made earlier this month it would have gotten a bit more attention... http://naruto.viz.com/forum/showthread.php?t=63591

Personally I think with what we know about Tobi, his relationship with the Hidden Mist Village, and the final fate of the Land of Whirlpools it seems like they could all tie together quite nicely. Tobi had a motive to whipe out the Land of Whirpools and the Hidden Mist Village provided him a rather straight forward way to handle it.

As for how Zabuza could play into it...

I've never spent much time looking at the databook statistics on all the characters, so I don't know most of the ages of the older cast, but I always assumed Zabuza was pretty close to Kakashi's age. Which means he would have been rookie age during the last ninja war when the destruction of the land of whirlpools happened. Considering the reputation Zabuza had as a kid he would have been the right type of canidate for a mission to crush another nation. Of course I'm just guessing on this part as I'm not certain of his age...

We don't really have much information about Tobi's time as secret Mizukage or when specifically it happened though. The overall problem is that we just don't know how long each Mizukage was in power. Mai (5th and current Mizukage) seems relatively young so it is hard to say how long she has been running things, the artwork we've seen of 4th Mizukage made him look very young compared to the other 8 hosts, and we know squat about the other 3 Mizukage before that.

Considering the artwork and the fact that the 3-tails was loose in the world it would seem he had a short reign with a violent death. The fact that Tobi didn't simply take the 3-tails at that point would either imply the Akatsuki wasn't formed yet or he wasn't controlling that particular Mizukage. It also seems that he wasn't taken out by his own village though, otherwise they would have had a new host ready.



Gato on the other hand I have a lot more trouble trying to tie into this. When we saw him he seemed like just a small time local crime boss, trying to push a classic protection racket on the locals. Zabuza was simply his hired muscle. I just never got the feel that anything larger than that was ever going on with Gato.

I also doubt Tobi would have needed to keep anything secret about the destruction of the Land of Whirlpools, as that event was already a good 20 years old by the time of that mission.

Last edited by Rezeon; 07-20-2010 at 02:22 PM.
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