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Old 07-02-2010, 03:40 PM   #1
Maikeru D. Shinigami
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Default The Education System

First off, let me say this, the passing grade should not be the same for all things.

Required Courses should be a C or higher.
Electives should be a D or higher, unless they relate to the field you are interested in at the time.

I.E. : A writer, should have to make a B (possibly C) or higher in creative writing.


Now, in my opinion, this education system is completely messed up, and I would like to bring my ideas on what definitely should be done up to debate. Teenagers are wasting their time on stuff they really don't need to know if they don't want to. Specifically, with Math, History and Science. English can stay, but its standards are off.

This is what I say. Up through Middle School, the required courses could generally stay the same, unless you show an adequate amount of knowledge in a particular subject. But these are the courses, where I feel education is at its end, in terms of requirement.

Math:
Geometry (AlgebraB is not a necessity)

The only thing you need Math for, unless you are going into a certain field, is for income taxes. And most of these things are done online now.

Science:
Chemistry and Biology (These two could probably be combined into one)

Medicine and Understanding of your body are important. There are Scientific things that aren't all that important though.

History:
Your Specific Country's Government and Some History (This is all you need to know really)

History could easily end in 9th grade.
I learned the same damn thing, 9th, 10th, 11th and 12th grade.


This being said, the list of importantcy for the current four subjects are:

English
Science
Math & History

However, English needs to change its focus on subjects.

For one, these should be the true requirements:
Understanding of basic words and phrases.
The ability to write up your ideals in a proper manner.

These should not be required, but can be taught:
The idea of pronouns, and the such.

Knowing how to comprehend a paragraph and being able to write one, are far more important than knowing what the words in the paragraph are.

So up to High School (Requirements):
English.
Math.
History.
Science.

Afterwards, Science, History and Math should be changed after a certain subject has been passed. These could be passed in Middle School as well. Thus giving you more time to meet the requirements of what High School should have.


These are the subjects which should be required in their place:

Civics (2 years).
Debate (2 years).
Economics (2 years).
Psychology (2 years).

But not all necessarily for a full four years.

These four classes would be more of an elective course. You could choose to take them at any time. But, they must be passed with a C or higher.

The requirement of English would end in 11th grade, unless you make an A in your first two years of High School. Though you could take it again, if you enjoy it.

Basically, if you finish Math, Science and History in 9th or 10th (or even in Middle School), you have so much room for electives that High School is entirely based on YOUR interests.

That being said, Foreign Language should AT MOST, be one year requirement. Though I believe it shouldn't be.


This could wind out being your schedule in 9th grade:

English, Psychology, Civics, Economics, Debate and Electives.

Heck you could possibly spend 11th and 12th grade, purely on electives, if you so wish.

I personally would spread, Psychology, Civics, Economics and Debate out though.


Now, here's an idea that could stay or go:

All of these subjects could be written, oral or both. That would be up to the student alone.


Give the kids something they ACTUALLY need.


After this, you graduate and go to College, where my next ideas come in.


First off, make the requirements logical.

What hair stylist needs to know English? Come on, seriously?


Also, for certain subjects, there should be a submissions area in ALL colleges.

Specific submissions off the top of my head, would basically be in artwork.


Save the children the 4 useless years they have to use to become a success, and give them what they need.

Obviously, some subjects would require more time than others. But that just means the more important fields get people that ACTUALLY want to pursue that career.

For instance, becoming a doctor would take longer than becoming a salesman.


Thoughts?
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Old 07-02-2010, 03:47 PM   #2
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Default Re: The Education System

Just for arguments sake, what you are suggesting is having a kid decide at age where he or she doesn't really know what they really want to do. What you wanted to do at the age of 5 or 6 is totally different than what you want to when you're 17-18.
And so with the system that you are proposing, you're saying that a kid has to take certain classes or needs certain grades to pass to become what they want to be. What if the kid decides to change professions when he's 15-16? All the work that he put into to becoming a business man is now going to prevent him from becoming an engineer?
This is just to argue for the sake of arguing. No hard feelings.
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Old 07-02-2010, 04:01 PM   #3
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Default Re: The Education System

**This post is made with only basic knowledge about the current system, but I know enough to understand it.

1. You still don't have a number 1 in your sig. Link this?

2. I disagree (and am playing devils advocate).

In math, basic algebra is far more nesassary than geometry. You may not realize it, but you use it every day. On the other hand, you never work out the angles in a circle.

History is one of the widest subjects in the world. There is 5000 years of it, and each country had something different going on. You learning the same thing was the fault of the curriculum, not the subject. Also, history is an essay subject. A proper history course should teach you how to structure and format an essay, a skill that (I'm told) it essential for later life.

You want people to take have to take Economics with having to take more than basic math? Good luck with that one. Also, two years on Civics is a waste of time. Also, debate isn't really necessary either. Most professions won't need it.

Foreign Languages are needed to give you the ability to leave America and survive. Since it's probably a good thing to leave America, why kick them out before they can learn anything? It also helps international relations, plus should give people a taste of other cultures.

FYI, College requirements for menial jobs like hairdressing are usually there to see whether you have the ability to understand something when you're told. They are usually very low.
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Old 07-02-2010, 04:02 PM   #4
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Default Re: The Education System

Quote:
Originally Posted by naruto_jock View Post
Just for arguments sake, what you are suggesting is having a kid decide at age where he or she doesn't really know what they really want to do. What you wanted to do at the age of 5 or 6 is totally different than what you want to when you're 17-18.
And so with the system that you are proposing, you're saying that a kid has to take certain classes or needs certain grades to pass to become what they want to be. What if the kid decides to change professions when he's 15-16? All the work that he put into to becoming a business man is now going to prevent him from becoming an engineer?
This is just to argue for the sake of arguing. No hard feelings.
Well, you're aren't deciding what you want to do at the age of 5. This starts at the age of like 14-15. Thus making people think about their future earlier in their life than what has been known before. The idea of book smarts is dropped and the idea of street smarts (communicating with the world around you), is brought into priority. Obviously, any student can pursue future courses in Math, History and Science if they wish to do so. Businessmen and engineer would have some similar subjects in hand. Also, say the person doesn't become a successful engineer, they now have some courses from High School, that they could use to become a businessman. They also have an understanding of the world, thus increasing the potential of "maturity", per se.

And of course certain grades are needed. It's to help the children's chances of success. If you fail a course, you will have to take it again, unless it's an elective. This is because there are certain things you NEED to know before going out into the real world. This brings the real world into the classroom, thus giving the child more understanding of what they are going into.
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Old 07-02-2010, 04:29 PM   #5
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Default Re: The Education System

Quote:
Originally Posted by The Demon Zabuza View Post
**This post is made with only basic knowledge about the current system, but I know enough to understand it.

1. You still don't have a number 1 in your sig. Link this?

2. I disagree (and am playing devils advocate).

In math, basic algebra is far more nesassary than geometry. You may not realize it, but you use it every day. On the other hand, you never work out the angles in a circle.

History is one of the widest subjects in the world. There is 5000 years of it, and each country had something different going on. You learning the same thing was the fault of the curriculum, not the subject. Also, history is an essay subject. A proper history course should teach you how to structure and format an essay, a skill that (I'm told) it essential for later life.

You want people to take have to take Economics with having to take more than basic math? Good luck with that one. Also, two years on Civics is a waste of time. Also, debate isn't really necessary either. Most professions won't need it.

Foreign Languages are needed to give you the ability to leave America and survive. Since it's probably a good thing to leave America, why kick them out before they can learn anything? It also helps international relations, plus should give people a taste of other cultures.

FYI, College requirements for menial jobs like hairdressing are usually there to see whether you have the ability to understand something when you're told. They are usually very low.
1. I actually don't know why I don't have a number one, I tried to fix it.

2. I disagree, to an extent (and am compromising with devil's advocate).

My point is not necessarily, that these things don't need to be learned, it's that the amount of time put into them, is overstressed. Especially in America, where you learn the same thing every year. Which likely is a large part in why our country is so messed up right now. I believe more focus needs to be put into street smarts, because street smarts are very important. You have to understand the world around you. And while you need knowledge of what you are doing too, the focus should be split more in half. You spend 10-12 years of your life learning all these subjects on book smarts, but never are required to learn any street smarts.

And I agree that should be history's focus. Civics and Economics can both be considered a subsection of both Math and History themselves. If I remember correctly, Economics may already be required, by understanding the laws in the world around you, is also important. And perhaps, Geometry isn't all that important. But with the increased use of technology, all fields are becoming less important day by day. That being said, I can understand the argument of Algebra being more important than Geometry. But it doesn't really change the fact of the subject being over-focused. I learned all my required math by the end of 10th grade, and could have easily finished in 9th grade, as I had already taken Geometry and Algebra. Arguably, I would say I could have skipped Geometry, and just kept the Algebra I took in 8th grade.

Essay writing would have a lot to do with Debate and English classes. If a person wishes to change something, they are going to need to know how to put their argument together. Civics and Economics will increase the idea of knowledge, when it comes to debate. I also agree that the curriculum in America is totally messed up. Which is why I would propose that the street smarts of the real world be taught as well. Debate isn't necessary in profession, but a good debater can present an argument to a boss or coworker about why this or that wasn't done, and not get over emotional when doing so. Thinking more, Civics and Economics could also be combined into one. Psychology is definitely a necessity in life though. I was also presented the idea of politics, but that will be learned a lot in Civics, Economics and Debate.

If I went anywhere out of the country, I would probably pick England. Which is still, from my understanding, a predominately English speaking place. I can understand learning cultures, but I don't find it necessary to learn the language of the culture, unless I choose to want to learn it. This also combines with Psychology, to understand why different countries interact they way that they do. And can also combine with Civics, Economics and Debate.

Honestly, I believe hairdressing requirements are like two years. But even then, my mother is learning way more than I feel she needs to know. Combine the ideas of classes into one instead of spreading them out, that's my idea. Gets things done much quicker, and you get to get out and pursue your dream quicker. I would find it a shame that I would need 4 years of college to teach High School, something that I just got out of.
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Old 07-02-2010, 05:41 PM   #6
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Default Re: The Education System

Been waiting for to make this thread Maikeru. And I definitely agree that the education system needs to be reformed and your idea is a step in the right direction, in my opinion.

For now, I'm going to keep this short and even though it doesn't necessarily have to do with Maikerus seemly overall street smart argument I'm going to bring in a little of my own problem with the current system in place.

The current system is about as flexible as a diamond. Instead of enhancing the things people are good at - it simply tries to hold them back, instead of focusing on actually helping someone with their chosen path in life they just want you to pass the tests so the school looks good.
For example: Someone close to me in real life is a genius at math, always has been. He was held back alot though because his ability to read and write was found lacking. He's isn't that bad, he knows how to read and write well enough to get through life, but according to the tests he was a failure and now in college he faces the same problem. Forcing him to take an overabundant amount of English classes when the only thing he wants to do is focus in the field of mathematics, but before he can start classes that focus on numbers he has to take a load of classes that focus on letters.

That's a total and complete waste of his time. He will never do anything that uses advanced reading/writing because he dislikes the subjects (much like me and my hatred of math) yet he will be forced to take 1-2 years worth of this tripe until he reaches the standards required. Another friend of mine went to get his masters in the Culinary Arts and was required to take an advanced physics class. For what, we still don't know as he's told us time and time again that he never once used anything in it to prepare a meal.

Much like in Maikerus example with the hairstylist I find this lack of logic simply disgusting. A general standard should be made, once you reach this point (which should be before High school) you should be allowed to focus on what you are going to actually do with your life.

For myself I have to take a decent amount of extra math classes in college. I'm awaiting someone to tell me exactly when I will be using this knowledge in Psychology, I assume I will be digging into the minds of people by doing their taxes and building blueprints.
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Old 07-02-2010, 05:43 PM   #7
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Default Re: The Education System

all i have to say is if this were true....me and a lot of people i know would be failing
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Old 07-02-2010, 06:13 PM   #8
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Default Re: The Education System

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Originally Posted by Vornmusion View Post
Been waiting for to make this thread Maikeru. And I definitely agree that the education system needs to be reformed and your idea is a step in the right direction, in my opinion.

For now, I'm going to keep this short and even though it doesn't necessarily have to do with Maikerus seemly overall street smart argument I'm going to bring in a little of my own problem with the current system in place.

The current system is about as flexible as a diamond. Instead of enhancing the things people are good at - it simply tries to hold them back, instead of focusing on actually helping someone with their chosen path in life they just want you to pass the tests so the school looks good.
For example: Someone close to me in real life is a genius at math, always has been. He was held back alot though because his ability to read and write was found lacking. He's isn't that bad, he knows how to read and write well enough to get through life, but according to the tests he was a failure and now in college he faces the same problem. Forcing him to take an overabundant amount of English classes when the only thing he wants to do is focus in the field of mathematics, but before he can start classes that focus on numbers he has to take a load of classes that focus on letters.

That's a total and complete waste of his time. He will never do anything that uses advanced reading/writing because he dislikes the subjects (much like me and my hatred of math) yet he will be forced to take 1-2 years worth of this tripe until he reaches the standards required. Another friend of mine went to get his masters in the Culinary Arts and was required to take an advanced physics class. For what, we still don't know as he's told us time and time again that he never once used anything in it to prepare a meal.

Much like in Maikerus example with the hairstylist I find this lack of logic simply disgusting. A general standard should be made, once you reach this point (which should be before High school) you should be allowed to focus on what you are going to actually do with your life.

For myself I have to take a decent amount of extra math classes in college. I'm awaiting someone to tell me exactly when I will be using this knowledge in Psychology, I assume I will be digging into the minds of people by doing their taxes and building blueprints.
After reading some of the arguments, I can see where some of the classes are needed in High School. Specifically, Algebra, Chemistry, Biology, Anatomy, two-three years of English (minus the need to know what the title of a word is) and a small bit of government, which is basically mostly broken down to Civics and Economics. Also enhancing Debate and Psychology, which important for communication. Mainly, I believe the focus should be more split. And once you reach college, it should be unequalized based on the field you choose.
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Old 07-02-2010, 08:30 PM   #9
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Exclamation Re: The Education System

Spoiler:
Damn, I don't have much time to read all posts and write a good reply right now. But can't resist posting. I'll get back with a good reply later.


Well I think everyone should get a basic knowledge about subjects that are required to do/understand real life affairs. -For the sake of 'common sense'. And believe me, subjects like maths, science, ect improve the way of thinking in a person. (Until grade 9)

Now, the subjects should be more focused on student's potential. Say if you wanna be a Aerospace Engineer, you ought to give more attention to science subjects rather than art subjects. (obviously) But in most countries all students HAVE TO learn all subjects to the extent government people think is best for general population. Different people have different skills. If someone stray from that path and study subjects you dislike just for the hell of it (or just to get through the exams), that's totally pointless.
Because,
-since you don't have an innate ability, it's much harder to learn. Won't get the best results for your time/energy.
-after you finished the exams or whatever, you forget all of the things you studied. What a waste of time?
-...
Education system must be more student-friendly! (until grade 11)

In my country education system is two or three times less flexible than that of USA or UK, (...)
And the damn syllabuses haven't changed since the stone age. Anyway.. as a result of that we have to learn the same old useless syllabuses just to pass advance level. (It's the only option for most)
Now I know from experience the following facts.
-Students begin to hate the subjects they're forced to learn.
-They absolutely have no "proper understanding" about the things they learn.
[eg: I know a good about of electronics since I was a kid. So I particularly noticed that 'electronics' unit in our Physics syllabus is bullsh!t. Guys learn the whole thing but the do not have a freaking idea what they are learning /or about electronics. (sadly, even they don't know that) But of course their knowledge is enough to get through the exam.] -again, what's the point?
-They forget the subjects after the exams. (besides the ones that you're following in college, etc.) (until grade 13)

If you don't have a load of money to study abroad, you got to stick to government universities. (Only a very small percentage of qualified students will get to learn in gov unis) And on top of that they don't even offer a good variety of degrees.
So if a student's potential is out of the given degrees, he's completely lost. Or if s/he could't get into a university (even though they're qualified) 3 years spent for advance level is useless in most cases.
________________________________________
  • Learn not just to get through exams but to get knowledge.
  • Walk in the path that you're good at.
  • Should acquire perception/understanding on whatever that you're learning.
  • I'll add more later.
The education system must be formed to support above lines. Not the other way around.
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Sorry about my English.
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Old 07-02-2010, 08:51 PM   #10
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Default Re: The Education System

All I have to say is that I agree that the Educational System need a MAJOR improvement. I mean if you take 4 Years of the basics like Math, English, and Science in High School then you shouldn't need to take them in collage since you would know all that already. Plus taking classes that was nothing to do with whatever your future career is going to be, you shouldn't take either.
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Old 07-02-2010, 09:41 PM   #11
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Default Re: The Education System

In one of my locale Elementary schools that goes up to grade 6; as of right now you can fail every single cores and have a average of 0% and still pass.


Now no matter what grade or mayor your taking they should all ways teach you English. As you get you older you should speak you age, spell at your age [ect].
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Old 07-02-2010, 09:44 PM   #12
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Default Re: The Education System

^Disagreed. Some people don't need English.
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Old 07-02-2010, 10:16 PM   #13
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Default Re: The Education System

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Originally Posted by Maikeru Shinigami View Post
^Disagreed. Some people don't need English.
No matter what the job you need English even if you work at fast food. Someone doesn't know English and has no clue how to say cheeseburger so instead they say cheesebooger, or something else. Someone wants to remodel there house and the contract has some words (they taught you in collage) and you have no way on seeing what it means, speeking in general, you have no computer and have no way of getting to one and you really need to write your resume to get a job; you need to sound professional and need to use certain words to make sure you get that job. And so on
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Old 07-02-2010, 11:13 PM   #14
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Default Re: The Education System

Some people can already do that without needing more college. Take J.K. Rowling, the author of Harry Potter. If someone with her writing skill was in college, would she really need English classes?
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Old 07-02-2010, 11:37 PM   #15
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Default Re: The Education System

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Originally Posted by Maikeru Shinigami View Post
Some people can already do that without needing more college. Take J.K. Rowling, the author of Harry Potter. If someone with her writing skill was in college, would she really need English classes?
She just has superior English skills.

But normal average people, with average every English skills.
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Old 07-02-2010, 11:38 PM   #16
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Default Re: The Education System

Well yeah, they need them.

But there are people in college with such skills.
And they don't really need all the extra focus on English, if you catch my drift.
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Old 07-02-2010, 11:56 PM   #17
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Default Re: The Education System

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Well yeah, they need them.

But there are people in college with such skills.
And they don't really need all the extra focus on English, if you catch my drift.
I gotcha.
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Old 07-03-2010, 12:10 AM   #18
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Default Re: The Education System

Maikeru, I back you up on this 100%. There is not much in your reasoning that I would mind changing. I was I had more rep power but your going to have to deal with what I have.

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Old 07-03-2010, 01:23 AM   #19
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Default Re: The Education System

You cant really say a particular subject is not necessary just because you wont be using it in near future. I mean they start teaching us all these subjects at the age of 6-7 when most of us want to become either astronomers or something like that. So its not really possible to say which subjects you will really need in your life later on. For this reason alone you need to study all the subjects until you reach a stage where you can make decisions about your carrier based on logic and your strengths. So I guess being forced to learn all these subjects is not the real problem.

The real problem is totally different. As you all know this system or any other system in the world to be fair, judges students based on their scores at the end of the year. How you do it is totally irrelevant as you are not really expected to "know" anything. These systems are specially designed for sole purpose of mass brainwash resulting in generations that don't questions anything and just follow the damn rules by heart. This has been done throughout the centuries and will be done on a regular basis for many more.
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Old 07-03-2010, 01:37 AM   #20
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Default Re: The Education System

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You cant really say a particular subject is not necessary just because you wont be using it in near future. I mean they start teaching us all these subjects at the age of 6-7 when most of us want to become either astronomers or something like that. So its not really possible to say which subjects you will really need in your life later on. For this reason alone you need to study all the subjects until you reach a stage where you can make decisions about your carrier based on logic and your strengths. So I guess being forced to learn all these subjects is not the real problem.

The real problem is totally different. The real purpose of the education system is not educate and empower us they like to pretend. As you all know this system or any other system in the world to be fair, judges students based on their scores at the end of the year. How you do it is totally irrelevant as you are not really expected to "know" anything. These systems are specially designed for sole purpose of mass brainwash resulting in generations that don't questions anything and just follow the damn rules by heart. This has been done throughout the centuries and will be done on a regular basis for many more.
Judging a person's skills by currently used shitty exams are completely unfair.
[eg: There is this guy who's a total genius. And is acknowledged by everyone who know enough of him. (including teachers) But the problem is, for valid reasons, he does not get along with the way of (most of the) 'exams'. As a result, he doesn't get the rank/grade he deserves. -While the others outrank him. But practically they can't even reach his abilities. -true story]
Exam system should be changed too.
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