Save The Whales By Eating Them?

[Vornmusion]

It does to those that place the Earth and every non-human in it above humans existence.

[mrsticky005]

Originally Posted by Vornmusion

It does to those that place the Earth and every non-human in it above humans existence.

Everyone and not just people would be better off without them.

[Zakku-Kan]

No. That's just wrong

[dogxander]

Originally Posted by mrsticky005

Personally, I think this whole "saving the what not" business is trite.
Nature can and will take care of itself. People will say "humans are
just another part of nature" then why don't you believe what you say?
If people are part of nature then people causing other animals to become
extinct is a part of nature. Nature is more likely to destroy us then we
are to destroy nature. Besides man saving nature is a joke. We can't
even save ourselves from mankind. We need to fix that problem first.

understandably you make a point about humans causing other animals to die as being part of nature, but is that the right thing to do? simply becuse we are part of nature, dose that give us the right to take the life of someone else? that dose not make us superior, i understand there's a need to kill for resons such as survival and eating,but even then we can over do it and when that happens humans that cause these type of greed should definitely be held responsible becuase even though other animals do things like kill for food, take trees for shelter it causes no where near the devastation we have. but no one perfect right? i also know what you mean when you say [/QUOTE] we can't even save ourselves.[/QUOTE] for a long time i felt that way too, especially when i feel like im the only one that truly understands how the world should be, the truth is i have no idea of how the world should be!!! there are so many beings on these planet each with thier own believes and opinions. how can think it's possible to change everyones mind, so that thay can see the same way i do. it's simple can't all i can do is just try and be me, do my best to show everyone the truth that i have learned thrugh my expirences,not just my own believes but what actually is,let everyone make thire own decisions.

[ONIMUSHA]

i have an idea

[dogxander]

well ive seen better explosions.

[mrsticky005]

Originally Posted by dogxander

understandably you make a point about humans causing other animals to die as being part of nature, but is that the right thing to do? simply becuse we are part of nature dose that give us the right to take the life of someone else? that dose not make us superior, i understand there's a need to kill for survival like eating,but even then we can over do it and when that happens humans that cause these type of greed should definitely be held responsible becuase even though other animals do things like kill for food, take trees for shelter it causes no where near the devastation we have. but no one perfect right? i also know what you mean when you say

we can't even save ourselves.[/QUOTE] for a long time i felt that way too, especially when i feel like im the only one that truly understands how the world should be, the truth is i have no idea of how the world should be!!! there are so many beings on these planet each with thier own believes and thier own opinions. how can think it possible to change everyones mind, so that thay can see the same way i do. it's simple can't all i can do is just try and be me, do my best to show everyone else the truth that i have learned thrugh my expirences,not just my own believes but what actually is,let everyone make thire own decisions.[/QUOTE]


A lion is superior to the zebra. The zebra is the lion's food.
Humans are superior to all other creatures which either are our food or entertainment, etc. The only two things that can really keep us in check
is disease and ourselves. Sure, you may think lions are superior because
an unarmed man vs a lion will result in a dead man. But humans don't
operate like that. We use our intelligence to fight the lion. Weaponry
is very much a part of human nature. The only reason animals don't
have weaponry like we humans do is because other animals are inferior.

The only reason humans should not destroy all other species is because
we would then starve to death. But that problem has virtually been solved
through the agricultural revolution. Some people think that we're running
out of food. We're not. There's plenty of food to go around. Why do kids
in Africa starve to death? It's because there our warlords who confiscate
the food and take it for themselves or sell it for a high price. If Africa
wasn't so screwed up there would be an abundance of food as Africa
has a lot of rich fertile land that is good for growing crops.

Sure, it's hard to believe that humans are the superior species
when there are so many idiotic humans running amok. But consider
how far humans have come in their relatively short history and see
how far a chimp has come. Chimps haven't got anywhere and never
will get anywhere. Humans will....If we don't destroy each other first.

[mrsticky005]

Originally Posted by ONIMUSHA

i have an idea

Good idea.


Good article I found. http://www.spiked-online.com/articles/0000000CA40E.htm

[ItachiAnbu]

As a vegetarian, I am slightly apathetic towards this topic.

I mean, I don't even eat chicken. At least whales are fun to watch.

[mrsticky005]

Originally Posted by ItachiAnbu

As a vegetarian, I am slightly apathetic towards this topic.

I mean, I don't even eat chicken. At least whales are fun to watch.

Well we can always milk the whales.

They're mammals, right?

(Hmm I should look that up. Milking whales)

It seems like you can milk a whale...but it's highly fattening and probably more like cream.

[dogxander]

Originally Posted by mrsticky005

we can't even save ourselves.

for a long time i felt that way too, especially when i feel like im the only one that truly understands how the world should be, the truth is i have no idea of how the world should be!!! there are so many beings on these planet each with thier own believes and thier own opinions. how can think it possible to change everyones mind, so that thay can see the same way i do. it's simple can't all i can do is just try and be me, do my best to show everyone else the truth that i have learned thrugh my expirences,not just my own believes but what actually is,let everyone make thire own decisions.
[/QUOTE]A lion is superior to the zebra. The zebra is the lion's food.Humans are superior to all other creatures which either are our food or entertainment, etc. The only two things that can really keep us in check is disease and ourselves. Sure, you may think lions are superior because an unarmed man vs a lion will result in a dead man. But humans don't operate like that. We use our intelligence to fight the lion. Weaponry
is very much a part of human nature. The only reason animals don't
have weaponry like we humans do is because other animals are inferior.
The only reason humans should not destroy all other species is because
we would then starve to death. But that problem has virtually been solved
through the agricultural revolution. Some people think that we're running
out of food. We're not. There's plenty of food to go around. Why do kids
in Africa starve to death? It's because there our warlords who confiscate
the food and take it for themselves or sell it for a high price. If Africa
wasn't so screwed up there would be an abundance of food as Africa
has a lot of rich fertile land that is good for growing crops.
Sure, it's hard to believe that humans are the superior species
when there are so many idiotic humans running amok. But consider
how far humans have come in their relatively short history and see
how far a chimp has come. Chimps haven't got anywhere and never
will get anywhere. Humans will....If we don't destroy each other first.[/QUOTE]


seriously you think that lions are superior to zebras only becuse thire predators! if that was true zebras would not be around today,zebras just as all animals that are pray to anyone elese have come up with ingenus ways of surviving such as camouflage, safety in numbers, defence mechanism's, in fact its the lions that are having a much rougher time survieing in africa today becuse thres not enough space and overpopulation.(gee i wunder who's fault that is) anyways back to the predetor vs pray simply becuse your a predetor dose't mean your better or superior to another being including pray. lions have to hunt in groups becuse a single lion rearly makes a decent kill, also zebra's are much faster then lions thats why lions usually go after young or sick pray and dont get me wrong i love lions just trying to make a point. so you think that humans are superior to chimps well how so? if you mean all our precious technology thay have no need for it and it dose't pollute the world around them! weapons? we see how well that's truned out for humans. medicine well thay make thire own out of leaves and at least thay don't force other living beings to test out thire diseases by injecting them with it in order to cure themselves!!! but yeah i gusess chimps are very simple mabey humans should try it sometime.

[mrsticky005]

Originally Posted by dogxander

for a long time i felt that way too, especially when i feel like im the only one that truly understands how the world should be, the truth is i have no idea of how the world should be!!! there are so many beings on these planet each with thier own believes and thier own opinions. how can think it possible to change everyones mind, so that thay can see the same way i do. it's simple can't all i can do is just try and be me, do my best to show everyone else the truth that i have learned thrugh my expirences,not just my own believes but what actually is,let everyone make thire own decisions.

A lion is superior to the zebra. The zebra is the lion's food.Humans are superior to all other creatures which either are our food or entertainment, etc. The only two things that can really keep us in check is disease and ourselves. Sure, you may think lions are superior because an unarmed man vs a lion will result in a dead man. But humans don't operate like that. We use our intelligence to fight the lion. Weaponry
is very much a part of human nature. The only reason animals don't
have weaponry like we humans do is because other animals are inferior.
The only reason humans should not destroy all other species is because
we would then starve to death. But that problem has virtually been solved
through the agricultural revolution. Some people think that we're running
out of food. We're not. There's plenty of food to go around. Why do kids
in Africa starve to death? It's because there our warlords who confiscate
the food and take it for themselves or sell it for a high price. If Africa
wasn't so screwed up there would be an abundance of food as Africa
has a lot of rich fertile land that is good for growing crops.
Sure, it's hard to believe that humans are the superior species
when there are so many idiotic humans running amok. But consider
how far humans have come in their relatively short history and see
how far a chimp has come. Chimps haven't got anywhere and never
will get anywhere. Humans will....If we don't destroy each other first.[/QUOTE]


seriously you think that lions are superior to zebras only becuse thire predators! if that was true zebras would not be around today,zebras just as all animals that are pray to anyone elese have come up with ingenus ways of surviving such as camouflage, safety in numbers, defence mechanism's, in fact its the lions that are having a much rougher time survieing in africa today becuse thres not enough space and overpopulation.(gee i wunder who's fault that is) anyways back to the predetor vs pray simply becuse your a predetor dose't mean your better or superior to another being including pray. lions have to hunt in groups becuse a single lion rearly makes a decent kill, also zebra's are much faster then lions thats why lions usually go after young or sick pray and dont get me wrong i love lions just trying to make a point. so you think that humans are superior to chimps well how so? if you mean all our precious technology thay have no need for it and it dose't pollute the world around them! weapons? we see how well that's truned out for humans. medicine well thay make thire own out of leaves and at least thay don't force other living beings to test out thire diseases by injecting them with it in order to cure themselves!!! but yeah i gusess chimps are very simple mabey humans should try it sometime.[/QUOTE]


You're seriously undermining human achievement in medicine
if you think chimps are anywhere close to the level humans are at.

[dogxander]

i do think that we need much more effective methods,becuse even though i think that scientist have made some impressive advancements most have come at too high cost! such as experimentations on living, feeling, beings that have nothing to do with our probloms but some pepole would argue that it is done in order save many more lives but since when is one life more valuable then another. but i can understand wanting to help pepole that need it. but still i can't accept the idea of putting someone else in pain in order help another. it's said that "when one life is put on a scale against the world the balance will always tilt in favor the world" meaning that one life is not important when balanced against the majority. but you know what to that one being its life is most important thing in the world!!!

[Sasori_X]

I agree with Mr.Sticky, I mean aren't we one with nature? So in a sense we're not destroying nature, but Nature is doing it to itself. I mean if the ice age or the Mesozoic era really did exist, look what happened to them? Did they did something to screw up the environment? Did they had any control as to why the dinosaurs or the mammoth's are extinct now? Could the dino's help that a meteorite screwed them up or how the ice was melting?

So what am I trying to get at? Well my best theory is that this is Nature's way of handling the top predators... which BTW is us... humans. Either that or what the libs and environmentalist says is true that we are in fact effing up our world.

But seriously, we are going kinda off topic a bit.

Originally Posted by ItachiAnbu

As a vegetarian, I am slightly apathetic towards this topic.

I mean, I don't even eat chicken. At least whales are fun to watch.

I used to be a vegetarian... until that sudden craving for meat finally kicked in.... sorry Betsy.

But yeah I always enjoyed seeing Shamu doing those flips in the air, until I found that there is like 6 different Shamu's in seaworld.

[ItachiAnbu]

Originally Posted by mrsticky005

Well we can always milk the whales.

They're mammals, right?

(Hmm I should look that up. Milking whales)

It seems like you can milk a whale...but it's highly fattening and probably more like cream.

We could always freeze it and make iced whale-cream.

[Kunoichi]

Originally Posted by dogxander

i do think that we need much more effective methods,becuse even though i think that scientist have made some impressive advancements most have come at too high cost! such as experimentations on living, feeling, beings that have nothing to do with our probloms but some pepole would argue that it is done in order save many more lives but since when is one life more valuable then another. but i can understand wanting to help pepole that need it. but still i can't accept the idea of putting someone else in pain in order help another. it's said that "when one life is put on a scale against the world the balance will always tilt in favor the world" meaning that one life is not important when balanced against the majority. but you know what to that one being its life is most important thing in the world!!!

If you want to get into animal testing there are reasons for it, the main one being, animals don't sue. We can test on animals and skip the messy paperwork of waivers and avoid lawsuits. Not only that but the animals used in testing are animals that can be bred quickly and cycle through life at a fast rate, like mice or rabbits. The testing we've done on animals aplies to almost every medical advancment in the 20th century, look at insulin pumps for example. Look at HIV vaccines, if you found out you had HIV in the 80s that was is, you had no chance of survival, in a few years you were going to wither away to nothing before you died. Now? People diagnosed with HIV have a chance, it's not a death sentance the way it was a few decades ago, and that's in large because of the research done on animals.

And as far as that whole "...to that one being its life is most important thing in the world!!!" that's because it's a being that's either selfish, or not capable of of cognitive thought.

I get what you were saying about the lion and the zebra. I wouldn't say that a lion is superior to a zebra or the other way around because they're primal beings. They live based on instinct alone, and it really all depends on how you use the word superior. But as far as intellectual superiority goes, the human race wins. You said not to regard the technology that humans have developed as a sign of being superiority because "animals don't need that technology" neither do humans. Do i need a microwave oven? Do i need a toaster? Do i need the internet? Do i need video games? No. But we still have these things, we also have things called morals and values. We have something called "problem solving." We as a race are intellectually superior because we retain more information than any other species on earth, we have critical thinking that's allowed us to sustain life in any habitat or climate, we have a cerebral cortex ratio higher than anything else on this planet. Our ability to think has far surpassed even the most ingenious animals.

Originally Posted by Sasori_X

But yeah I always enjoyed seeing Shamu doing those flips in the air, until I found that there is like 6 different Shamu's in seaworld.

When I was 7 my grandmother took me to seaworld, we watched the whole Shamu show. When it was over we stayed behind so i could watch the whales some more, we were the only ones in the bleachers and the trainers where in back or something so Shamu's just swimming in his tank and then all of a sudden he jumps out of the water and snags a seagull right out of the air. It was the coolest f*&^ing thing i have ever seen. For the next 20 minutes we watched Shamu pushing this dead seagull body around the tank.

[dogxander]

Originally Posted by Kunoichi

If you want to get into animal testing there are reasons for it, the main one being, animals don't sue. We can test on animals and skip the messy paperwork of waivers and avoid lawsuits. Not only that but the animals used in testing are animals that can be bred quickly and cycle through life at a fast rate, like mice or rabbits. The testing we've done on animals aplies to almost every medical advancment in the 20th century, look at insulin pumps for example. Look at HIV vaccines, if you found out you had HIV in the 80s that was is, you had no chance of survival, in a few years you were going to wither away to nothing before you died. Now? People diagnosed with HIV have a chance, it's not a death sentance the way it was a few decades ago, and that's in large because of the research done on animals.

And as far as that whole "...to that one being its life is most important thing in the world!!!" that's because it's a being that's either selfish, or not capable of of cognitive thought.

I get what you were saying about the lion and the zebra. I wouldn't say that a lion is superior to a zebra or the other way around because they're primal beings. They live based on instinct alone, and it really all depends on how you use the word superior. But as far as intellectual superiority goes, the human race wins. You said not to regard the technology that humans have developed as a sign of being superiority because "animals don't need that technology" neither do humans. Do i need a microwave oven? Do i need a toaster? Do i need the internet? Do i need video games? No. But we still have these things, we also have things called morals and values. We have something called "problem solving." We as a race are intellectually superior because we retain more information than any other species on earth, we have critical thinking that's allowed us to sustain life in any habitat or climate, we have a cerebral cortex ratio higher than anything else on this planet. Our ability to think has far surpassed even the most ingenious animals.





When I was 7 my grandmother took me to seaworld, we watched the whole Shamu show. When it was over we stayed behind so i could watch the whales some more, we were the only ones in the bleachers and the trainers where in back or something so Shamu's just swimming in his tank and then all of a sudden he jumps out of the water and snags a seagull right out of the air. It was the coolest f*&^ing thing i have ever seen. For the next 20 minutes we watched Shamu pushing this dead seagull body around the tank.

first let me just say ive missed your way of telling it how it is.
ok now animal experimentation has recently become a big issue for me. mainly due too seeing footage of the actual animals during experiments gatherd by organzations such as PETA and other's. and since i always wanted to be a herpetologist (someone who studys reptiles and amphibians) its truly made reconsider the entire scientific community,as you said most worthy scientific or medical achievement have had animal testing becuase it is easier also as you stated above for many other resons but a major reson i think is becuase thease lab animals can't defend themselves. animals dont have a voice that we can understand! thats why ive decided to base my research in interspecies communication,that way one day we will all be able to understand each other. anyways im getting of topic the truth is i can personally sympathize with someone that has a horribal disease and wants to become healthy ,but i can not approve of using a animal's life as a way to find a solution to a problem! and at the end of the day no matter how much a animal's body may be similar to a humans genetically (witch is what most scientists rely on in order to get results) there will always be a difference between organizum's and those difference's will give diffrent results.you often hear about medications geting pulled from the shelves and its becoming more common these day's, now im not saying its all due to animal testing but it makes you wonder how many are? i've heard of researchers that are investigating how much of a difference the results from experiments on human cells vary from the results on animal cells when the same test's are performed.thus these testing on animals is almost as effective as guessing.its funny these whole thread is about eating whales and to be honest whales kind of scare me. but i still think that we are part of life and life is part of us.

[Kunoichi]

Originally Posted by dogxander

first let me just say ive missed your way of telling it how it is.
ok now animal experimentation has recently become a big issue for me. mainly due too seeing footage of the actual animals during experiments gatherd by organzations such as PETA and other's. and since i always wanted to be a herpetologist (someone who studys reptiles and amphibians) its truly made reconsider the entire scientific community,as you said most worthy scientific or medical achievement have had animal testing becuase it is easier also animals dont have a voice that we can understand! thats why ive decided to base my research in interspecies communication,that way one day we will be able to all understand each other. anyways im getting of topic the truth is i can personally sympathize with someone that has a horribal disease and wants to get cured,but i can not approve of using a animal's life to find a answer to a question! and at the end of the day no matter how much a animal's body may be similar to a humans genetically (witch is what most scientists rely on to get results) there will always be difference you hear about medications geting pulled from the shelves and its becoming more common, now im not saying its all due to animal testing but it makes you wonder how many are? i've heard of researchers that are investigating how much of a difference the results from experiments on human cells vary from the results on animal cells when the same test's are performed thus these testing on animals is almost as effective as guessing.

LOL telling it how it is huh? I hope that's a good a thing.

BTW that's not how drug testing works. Before any drug (at-least in the united states) can even be sold or purchased there's a long process. It takes between 10-15 years (or longer) to develop any drug and it's been that way since the late 70s. To sum it up as short as possible it works like this:

Spoiler:

1- Scientists/Drug companies decided let's make a new drug. They have the R&D process or Discovery process where they figure out what the compound for the drug will be and the desired effects they would like. This take about 1-4 years.

2- They begin doing pre-clinical studies, aka animal testing. This is when they figure out possible side effects, and the possible value of the drug. This can take up to 3-4 years.

3- Now they move into what's called "Phase 1 testing" this is where they begin testing on humans. They use a small number of HEALTHY candidates so that they can see the effects on the human body. This can take anywhere from 6 months to a year. Once they've established the safety of the drug (IE: side effects, dosage, metabolic rate, etc.) they move on.

4- Now we're in what's called "Phase 2" which is still human trial testing. This time however they use the people from the population they're targeting. This testing process is much larger (more test subjects) and longer. This takes about 2 years.

5- Now we're in "Phase 3" where again they widen the study. Instead of testing a target group of a few hundred people they use a group of a couple thousand. The drug is distributed through clinics and hospitals sometimes, so that patients can be monitored. They often also use a control group that has placebo drugs to ensure that the drug they've been creating is actually working. They'll compare all of this data against other current treatments as well. This is about 3 years.

6- Okay so now they've been working on this drug for about a decade or more depending on the variable time frames, now and only now do our little scientists submit a report to the FDA which has to be about 100,000 pages or research. It can take the FDA between 6months and 2 years before they decided to A) Approve the drug and being to market it or B) Disapprove of the product (at which point 90% of the time they will not allow the drug to be marketed.)

Now keep in mind even if the FDA say "go for it" they usually continue to do trial testing even after it's approval.

The testing on animals is actually highly useful for the toxicology reports alone. You have to understand humans in large are very different from animals but genetically speaking we're more similar than different. All vertebrates basically have very similar make up. Scientists are looking at cells and the effects of cells, they're looking at pathogens, bacteria, viruses, everything is happening on a microscopic level and that's where humans and animals have the most in common.

Spoiler:

Now if you want to get into drugs being pulled, I really don't think that has anything to do with animal testing. That's the result of politics and or a corrupt system. That can be anything from the FDA being buddy buddy with a drug company that wants approval despite concerns that a drug might not be safe, or slapping down a drug that is probably safe and effective because of political implications, or even someone changing data and research because they want a drug approved.

But I know what you're getting at it. You feel it's unfair treatment to any animal, regardless of whether it's a human being or lab rat. I can understand sympathising with life in general the way that you do, I understand, but again I've got my own opinion on all of that. And boy did I ever ramble off topic

Spoiler:

BTW I hate PETA, the lady that runs it is a hypocrite and a cheat.... just saying.

Alright i'm done!

[dogxander]

Originally Posted by Kunoichi

LOL telling it how it is huh? I hope that's a good a thing.

BTW that's not how drug testing works. Before any drug (at-least in the united states) can even be sold or purchased there's a long process. It takes between 10-15 years (or longer) to develop any drug and it's been that way since the late 70s. To sum it up as short as possible it works like this:

Spoiler:

1- Scientists/Drug companies decided let's make a new drug. They have the R&D process or Discovery process where they figure out what the compound for the drug will be and the desired effects they would like. This take about 1-4 years.

2- They begin doing pre-clinical studies, aka animal testing. This is when they figure out possible side effects, and the possible value of the drug. This can take up to 3-4 years.

3- Now they move into what's called "Phase 1 testing" this is where they begin testing on humans. They use a small number of HEALTHY candidates so that they can see the effects on the human body. This can take anywhere from 6 months to a year. Once they've established the safety of the drug (IE: side effects, dosage, metabolic rate, etc.) they move on.

4- Now we're in what's called "Phase 2" which is still human trial testing. This time however they use the people from the population they're targeting. This testing process is much larger (more test subjects) and longer. This takes about 2 years.

5- Now we're in "Phase 3" where again they widen the study. Instead of testing a target group of a few hundred people they use a group of a couple thousand. The drug is distributed through clinics and hospitals sometimes, so that patients can be monitored. They often also use a control group that has placebo drugs to ensure that the drug they've been creating is actually working. They'll compare all of this data against other current treatments as well. This is about 3 years.

6- Okay so now they've been working on this drug for about a decade or more depending on the variable time frames, now and only now do our little scientists submit a report to the FDA which has to be about 100,000 pages or research. It can take the FDA between 6months and 2 years before they decided to A) Approve the drug and being to market it or B) Disapprove of the product (at which point 90% of the time they will not allow the drug to be marketed.)

Now keep in mind even if the FDA say "go for it" they usually continue to do trial testing even after it's approval.

The testing on animals is actually highly useful for the toxicology reports alone. You have to understand humans in large are very different from animals but genetically speaking we're more similar than different. All vertebrates basically have very similar make up. Scientists are looking at cells and the effects of cells, they're looking at pathogens, bacteria, viruses, everything is happening on a microscopic level and that's where humans and animals have the most in common.

Spoiler:

Now if you want to get into drugs being pulled, I really don't think that has anything to do with animal testing. That's the result of politics and or a corrupt system. That can be anything from the FDA being buddy buddy with a drug company that wants approval despite concerns that a drug might not be safe, or slapping down a drug that is probably safe and effective because of political implications, or even someone changing data and research because they want a drug approved.

But I know what you're getting at it. You feel it's unfair treatment to any animal, regardless of whether it's a human being or lab rat. I can understand sympathising with life in general the way that you do, I understand, but again I've got my own opinion on all of that. And boy did I ever ramble off topic

Spoiler:

BTW I hate PETA, the lady that runs it is a hypocrite and a cheat.... just saying.

Alright i'm done!

well you have done your homework!!! i am inpressed.
thanks for explaning a few things that i was wondering about.
i know that you have your opinion and when we debate im learning to respect it a littole more each time. thats why i like these forum it lets pepole with diffrent points of view get togather and discuss them.
and yeah ingrid newkirk (head of PETA) is a littole out there, but i must say her techniques do make a inpact good and bad.
one day the world will change i truely believe it, i hope that im around to see it change in a good way and do someting to help it change.

[mrsticky005]

Originally Posted by ItachiAnbu

We could always freeze it and make iced whale-cream.

Disturbing and yet delicious!