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Old 05-11-2010, 09:26 PM   #1
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Default Which is Stronger?

Which is the stronger Lightning Dragon?
Sasuke's Kirin, or the Lightning Dragon Spell Zatch and Kiyo have?

You decide.
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Old 05-11-2010, 09:37 PM   #2
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Default Re: Which is Stronger?

zatch and kiyo's lightning dragon looks more fierce...but sasuke's also, but i thinks zatch/kiyo's is slightly stronger
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Old 05-12-2010, 02:43 PM   #3
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Default Re: Which is Stronger?

I would definitely choose Sasuke's Kirin. It's extremely powerful, plus you don't need a book to use it.
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Old 05-12-2010, 02:55 PM   #4
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Default Re: Which is Stronger?

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Old 05-12-2010, 03:03 PM   #5
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Default Re: Which is Stronger?

Sasukes Kirin. It can kill while Zatchs dragon cant
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Old 05-13-2010, 10:36 AM   #6
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Default Re: Which is Stronger?

I'd say the lighting dragon
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Old 05-13-2010, 01:53 PM   #7
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Default Re: Which is Stronger?

sure i chose sasuke kinin
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Old 05-13-2010, 02:09 PM   #8
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Default Re: Which is Stronger?

sasukes kirin looks awesome. i also think it is stronger because it damaged itachi alot
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Old 05-14-2010, 08:57 PM   #9
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Default Re: Which is Stronger?

zatch an kiyo's
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Old 05-14-2010, 09:56 PM   #10
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Default Re: Which is Stronger?

Wonderful discussion going on. *Sarcasm* Let's see, Sasuke used Kirin once, and it didn't kill Itachi. Zatch and Kiyo have practiced Bao Zakeruga dozens of times, and it could likely bust mountains. Sasuke's Kirin can't do that. Some people are saying Kirin just because it looks cooler, but Zatch and Kiyo's Bao Zakeruga has shown more destructive power multiple times where Sasuke used Kirin once and it was unsuccessful. Zatch and Kiyo's spell is also better to use in a fight, because they hardly need as much prep to use it as Kirin does. Check Zatch Bell Chapter 275 pages 2-3. Pretty sure Kirin's not that big, last I checked. Kirin is on Naruto Chapter 391 pages 2-3 and 8-10, if anyone wants a look. And on Zatch Bell Chapter 319, Pages 14-15, is it just me, or is Shin Beruwan Bao Zakeruga bigger than the Earth? It's the most powerful dragon spell they have.

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I would definitely choose Sasuke's Kirin. It's extremely powerful, plus you don't need a book to use it.
Bao Zakeruga is more powerful. See my above paragraph. Also, Kirin requires Sasuke to use multiple fire jutsu to gather clouds in the atmosphere to conduct it. If the weather doesn't already start out that way, Zatch and Kiyo can use their most powerful version of Bao Zakeruga before Sasuke can manage Kirin.
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Sasukes Kirin. It can kill while Zatchs dragon cant
Since when can Zatch's dragon not kill? It can kill, it just never has. Just like Sasuke's Kirin can kill, despite the fact that it has never accomplished such a feat.
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sasukes kirin looks awesome. i also think it is stronger because it damaged itachi alot
Does looking awesome somehow make it stronger? Also, Zatch's Bao is better than Kirin in sheer size, it could most likely damage Itachi more than Sasuke's Kirin did, and even break through Susano'o.

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Old 05-15-2010, 08:51 AM   #11
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Default Re: Which is Stronger?

We don't know if it would break through Susano'o . It is the "Ultimate Defense" after all. Zatch and Kiyo's lightening dragon is more of a destructive power attack, while sasuke's kirin is a precise assassination technique. At least you can dodge Zatch and Kiyo's lightening dragon. Kirin is undodgeable. The only thing that can protect someone from kirin is susano'o. And what the person meant by not kill is that someone can survive Zatch and Kiyo's lightening dragon, while nobody can survive kirin.

Also, kirin needs fire jutsu, while Zatch and Kiyo's dragon needs the book. So they balance out. And also, the book can be destroyed, while sasuke's fire jutsu is always with him.
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Old 05-15-2010, 12:57 PM   #12
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Default Re: Which is Stronger?

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Originally Posted by LeafShinobi22 View Post
We don't know if it would break through Susano'o . It is the "Ultimate Defense" after all. Zatch and Kiyo's lightening dragon is more of a destructive power attack, while sasuke's kirin is a precise assassination technique. At least you can dodge Zatch and Kiyo's lightening dragon. Kirin is undodgeable. The only thing that can protect someone from kirin is susano'o. And what the person meant by not kill is that someone can survive Zatch and Kiyo's lightening dragon, while nobody can survive kirin.

Also, kirin needs fire jutsu, while Zatch and Kiyo's dragon needs the book. So they balance out. And also, the book can be destroyed, while sasuke's fire jutsu is always with him.
Actually, we do know if it would break through Susano'o. Zetsu called it the "Ultimate Defense". However, nothing suggests that it can't be broken through by planet level attacks. Zatch Bell Chapter 319, Pages 14-15. Zatch and Kiyo's most powerful version of Bao Zakeruga is capable of destroying the planet. It is a destructive power attack. However, I don't see how Kirin is a precise assasination attack. It requires preparation using large fire style jutsu, and destroyed a large hill. That doesn't seem like assasination to me. How does one not dodge a lightning strike, yet dodge something larger than the Earth itself? Unless they can fly and breathe in space. Can you please tell me where you're getting your facts from? Kirin was used once, on someone who was not the fastest person in Naruto, who survived using a defense which has been topped multiple times in other fictional universes. And allow me to say again that Itachi himself survived Kirin, proving that someone can survive it. Sasuke's fire jutsu don't last, once they miss they're not coming back. Also, Kirin takes longer to prepare, where Zatch and Kiyo's Bao Zakeruga can be performed from the very beginning of the battle.
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Old 05-15-2010, 01:31 PM   #13
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Default Re: Which is Stronger?

deidara 330 u make the most ultimate point awsome man
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Old 05-15-2010, 03:59 PM   #14
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Default Re: Which is Stronger?

after seeing the facts,i'll say zatch and kiyo's bao zakeruga is the strongest out of the three choice's.
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Old 05-15-2010, 04:17 PM   #15
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Default Re: Which is Stronger?

Sasuke's Kirin
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Old 05-15-2010, 10:13 PM   #16
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Default Re: Which is Stronger?

Quote:
Originally Posted by deidara330 View Post
Actually, we do know if it would break through Susano'o. Zetsu called it the "Ultimate Defense". However, nothing suggests that it can't be broken through by planet level attacks. Zatch Bell Chapter 319, Pages 14-15. Zatch and Kiyo's most powerful version of Bao Zakeruga is capable of destroying the planet. It is a destructive power attack. However, I don't see how Kirin is a precise assasination attack. It requires preparation using large fire style jutsu, and destroyed a large hill. That doesn't seem like assasination to me. How does one not dodge a lightning strike, yet dodge something larger than the Earth itself? Unless they can fly and breathe in space. Can you please tell me where you're getting your facts from? Kirin was used once, on someone who was not the fastest person in Naruto, who survived using a defense which has been topped multiple times in other fictional universes. And allow me to say again that Itachi himself survived Kirin, proving that someone can survive it. Sasuke's fire jutsu don't last, once they miss they're not coming back. Also, Kirin takes longer to prepare, where Zatch and Kiyo's Bao Zakeruga can be performed from the very beginning of the battle.
It's a precise assasination technique because it doesn't use destructive power like zatch and kiyos lightening dragon. It's a quick, pinpoint attack that kills you instantly. Can't make it any simpler than that.

If it can really attack the entire planet I can't really argue lol. Susano'o has never been broken through before. How can you blatantly state this would? I don't care how physically large it is, the fact, yes fact, remains that you don't know whether it would break through or not. Where are you getting your facts from pal? Unless it could literally destroy the planet, you don't know if itachi could survive the attack.

Lol. You gotta be kidding me... those pages you referred to. Their from a close range view dude. The moon in the background could be 100x bigger than that thing for all we know.

Just because it destroyed a large hill it isn't assasination? Yeah, that makes sense...

Where does it say in zatch bell that his attack could destroy the entire planet? I read the chapter and he summons the monster, then starts thanking everyone. The end. No description of it's power whatsoever. Please use facts, and only facts when trying to win a debate.

I said only susano'o was the only attack that can protect someone from Kirin, read posts more carefully before responding in such a rude, "knowitall"-ish manner.

Who was faster than itachi... what are you talking about lol. Who alive at that point was faster than him, really? And please use facts this time...

What do you mean by sasuke's fire jutsu don't last? He can always do more lol. And once they miss, the jutsu is set, so there's no need to make more anyway.

Zatch's book gets destroyed, no more lightening attack, better yet, no more zatch if I'm not mistaken.

I'll give you the set up time, but sasuke can fend for himself until the jutsu is ready for activation. But again, the book is a huge weakness to that ability, because if an enemy can think up a strategy to destroy the book, the actual attack won't mean much.
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Old 05-16-2010, 07:39 AM   #17
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Default Re: Which is Stronger?

Quote:
Originally Posted by LeafShinobi22 View Post
It's a precise assasination technique because it doesn't use destructive power like zatch and kiyos lightening dragon. It's a quick, pinpoint attack that kills you instantly. Can't make it any simpler than that.

If it can really attack the entire planet I can't really argue lol. Susano'o has never been broken through before. How can you blatantly state this would? I don't care how physically large it is, the fact, yes fact, remains that you don't know whether it would break through or not. Where are you getting your facts from pal? Unless it could literally destroy the planet, you don't know if itachi could survive the attack.

Lol. You gotta be kidding me... those pages you referred to. Their from a close range view dude. The moon in the background could be 100x bigger than that thing for all we know.

Just because it destroyed a large hill it isn't assasination? Yeah, that makes sense...

Where does it say in zatch bell that his attack could destroy the entire planet? I read the chapter and he summons the monster, then starts thanking everyone. The end. No description of it's power whatsoever. Please use facts, and only facts when trying to win a debate.

I said only susano'o was the only attack that can protect someone from Kirin, read posts more carefully before responding in such a rude, "knowitall"-ish manner.

Who was faster than itachi... what are you talking about lol. Who alive at that point was faster than him, really? And please use facts this time...

What do you mean by sasuke's fire jutsu don't last? He can always do more lol. And once they miss, the jutsu is set, so there's no need to make more anyway.

Zatch's book gets destroyed, no more lightening attack, better yet, no more zatch if I'm not mistaken.

I'll give you the set up time, but sasuke can fend for himself until the jutsu is ready for activation. But again, the book is a huge weakness to that ability, because if an enemy can think up a strategy to destroy the book, the actual attack won't mean much.
I suppose you could call it a precise assasination attack, then. That doesn't make it stronger though. That simply makes it a different type of attack.

Because if every defense that was never broken through before is invincible then I'll eat my sock. I just really find it quite hard to believe that something larger than a planet itself can't break through Susano'o. It did defeat Clear Note, who as we should know by now is capable of tanking massive attacks.

First, I'm pretty sure that's the Earth, not the Moon. Second, Clear and Zatch were already fighting directly above the planet, so I don't see how it could be far away enough to be 100X larger than the lightning dragon.

Well, I was under the impression that assasination involved stealth tactics, and not being seen. Sasuke has to be outdoors to use the jutsu, has to use multiple fire jutsu if the weather conditions aren't already right, and then use an attack that would kill much more than one person, since it's capable of destroying such a large area.

Why does it have to say that his attack is capable of destroying the planet? We already know that his attack is capable of destroying mountains and other objects of the same size as itself, so can we not assume that Zatch's most powerful spell can destroy the Earth if it's several times larger? Also, he utterly defeated Clear Note with it, who was completely prepared to use an attack large enough to destroy the planet.

Actually, Susano'o likely isn't the only attack capable of protecting someone from Kirin. IIRC Tio used much larger defenses to stop much larger attacks in Zatch Bell.

The Raikage. Most people's calculations put him at Low Hypersonic/High Supersonic, where Itachi was mainly only Supersonic in calculations. Sasuke could possibly be faster than Itachi as well, but I haven't made my own calculations, so I can't say for sure.

By "don't last" I meant that the Fire jutsu eventually dissipate once Sasuke's used them. Even though they create the desired weather conditions, the fire jutsu itself is dissipated. Being able to make more doesn't stop the ones previously used from dissipating.

Correct. However, this doesn't change the fact that Bao Zakeruga is still stronger than Kirin. This debate is to say which is stronger, not which is more useful.

Again, having recently made the realization that we're supposed to be saying which is stronger, an opponent thinking up a strategy to destroy the book doesn't affect the attack's strength, only it's usefulness.
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Old 05-16-2010, 08:51 AM   #18
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Default Re: Which is Stronger?

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I suppose you could call it a precise assasination attack, then. That doesn't make it stronger though. That simply makes it a different type of attack.

Because if every defense that was never broken through before is invincible then I'll eat my sock. I just really find it quite hard to believe that something larger than a planet itself can't break through Susano'o. It did defeat Clear Note, who as we should know by now is capable of tanking massive attacks.

First, I'm pretty sure that's the Earth, not the Moon. Second, Clear and Zatch were already fighting directly above the planet, so I don't see how it could be far away enough to be 100X larger than the lightning dragon.

Well, I was under the impression that assasination involved stealth tactics, and not being seen. Sasuke has to be outdoors to use the jutsu, has to use multiple fire jutsu if the weather conditions aren't already right, and then use an attack that would kill much more than one person, since it's capable of destroying such a large area.

Why does it have to say that his attack is capable of destroying the planet? We already know that his attack is capable of destroying mountains and other objects of the same size as itself, so can we not assume that Zatch's most powerful spell can destroy the Earth if it's several times larger? Also, he utterly defeated Clear Note with it, who was completely prepared to use an attack large enough to destroy the planet.

Actually, Susano'o likely isn't the only attack capable of protecting someone from Kirin. IIRC Tio used much larger defenses to stop much larger attacks in Zatch Bell.

The Raikage. Most people's calculations put him at Low Hypersonic/High Supersonic, where Itachi was mainly only Supersonic in calculations. Sasuke could possibly be faster than Itachi as well, but I haven't made my own calculations, so I can't say for sure.

By "don't last" I meant that the Fire jutsu eventually dissipate once Sasuke's used them. Even though they create the desired weather conditions, the fire jutsu itself is dissipated. Being able to make more doesn't stop the ones previously used from dissipating.

Correct. However, this doesn't change the fact that Bao Zakeruga is still stronger than Kirin. This debate is to say which is stronger, not which is more useful.

Again, having recently made the realization that we're supposed to be saying which is stronger, an opponent thinking up a strategy to destroy the book doesn't affect the attack's strength, only it's usefulness.
Look at that picture closely. The earth next to it is so small and distant, yet the dragon is clear and in front of us. No way that dragon is that big. Then it would be the size of about fifteen earths, do you know how large that is? If you look at chapter 321 page 11 you'll see another picture of it's head. It's head (or one of it's heads) is the size of a small storm cloud. When you look at the picture from chapter 319 pages 14-15 it's head isn't that much smaller than it's body. Looking at the evidence here, can you honestly say that picture isn't just the zoomed picture of the dragon with the earth in the background? Also, what do you mean by "right above the earth"? I can see their next to the earth, but their not in the earths atmosphere since their clearly floating in space. They've got to be millions of miles away from the planet at this point for the earths gravity to have no affect on them whatsoever. Therefore, I believe this picture is not proof that zatch and kiyos lightening dragon is larger than the entire planet. And another thing lol, if they're fighting right above the planet, how come the thing in it's mouth looks comparable in size to the earth? Is that thing the size of the entire planet too?

Why does it dissipating matter? Dissipating is necessary for the jutsu to work. It creates the necessary weather conditions in the sky. And again, if it dissipates and nothing happens (which shouldn't be possible), he can always make more fire to dissipate in the atmosphere. As long as he can perform fire jutsu, he can perform the attack.

Asassination is a deadly but subtle attack. It also means a skilled, or well performed murder. Something that can destroy an entire planet isn't asassination, that's a weapon of mass destruction lol. Kirin doesn't make a lot of noise, it's quick and over in a flash. The setup doesn't fit in with the actual attack. Kirin itself is an assasination technique.

I'm not saying it can't be broken through, I'm saying you have no way of proving (using facts) that this attack can break through it. It hasn't been done yet before so we have no scale for how much power you need to break through it. We just know some extremely powerful techniques weren't able to.

Tge fact that he killed someone who was capable of destroying the planet doesn't prove that attack can destroy a planet itself. Like I stated earlier, i'm 95% sure that attack isn't larger than the planet.

In fact, the only reason itachi blocked Kirin was because sasuke started bragging about it to him. He didn't anticipate that he might have susano'o. This attack is undodgeable, unless you can move faster than the speed of light. Kirin is a lightening bolt that fuses natural lightening with his chakra lightening. He's basically controlling a lightening bolt with his chakra. Tio wouldn't be able to react fast enough to it and would be desintegrated. If sasuke hadn't told itachi his attack was coming and just did it itachi would have died easily. He even admitted if it had not been for his susano'o he would have been killed. Explain to me how tio would dodge a lightening bolt? Can she move faster than the speed of light?

When judging how strong an attack is, you can't leave out factors like speed. Minato's strongest attack was arguably his speed. That's where he got his reputation. All he needed was a kunai and he could take out an entire squad of jonin level ninja without breaking a sweat. There's no way speed doesn't matter in a debate like this because if an attack is undodgeable than your automatically dead when the attack is performed. And before you say "I never said speed doesn't matter" I know that lol. I just had a bad feeling you were gonna bring it up in the future.

If raikage can't break the speed of light than his speed won't make a difference. But I'll give you that. Also sasuke probably isnt faster than itachi considering they were at equal speed during their fight and zetsu said itachi looked like he was slower than usual, probably due to his illness.

Kirin is an extremely powerful attack in itself, but coupled with it's speed it's hard to say it's not stronger than any attack put against it. I highly doubt the dragon is larger than the earth, and I understand it's able to destroy large mountains but I think kirins speed makes up for that. The dragon may have more destructive force, but I think it's a dodgeable attack (especially if you have someone like raikage's speed). Kirin dishes out a lot of destructive force also, maybe not as much, but it's also undodgeable. Kirin is an instant kill whenever used (without warning your oponnent first), so I'd have to say Kirin is the stronger overall attack.

Also, if it were the size that you say it is, it's head would be the size of the earth, looking at the picture on page 14-15 in chapter 319. But it clearly isn't, as shown in chapter 321 on page 11.

If your that confident that it's right above the earth than I would think the only explanation for this obvious distance change is that the figure in the back us the moon and not the earth. And if that's true, than it's even smaller than I previously stated (because it's size pales in comparison to the moon, which is obviously smaller than the earth).
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Last edited by LeafShinobi22; 05-16-2010 at 09:39 AM. Reason: More proof it isn't the size of the earth...
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Old 05-16-2010, 05:31 PM   #19
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Default Re: Which is Stronger?

I pick Sasuke's Kirin because I've only seen a handful of episodes of the Zatch Bell anime that aired on Toonami.
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Old 05-22-2010, 02:35 AM   #20
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Default Re: Which is Stronger?

There just about even but lighting dragon is stronger
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